Warning, I'm going to somewhat shit on Nocioni's contract yet again

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 15, 2007 6:07 PM CDT in News Comment 38 comments

Here's a fun tale from the authors of Grizzlies blog Shades of Blue (one of my new favs) that recently met new Griz GM Chris Wallace in an impromptu meet-and-greet. One of the topics that came up concerned the courting of Andres Nocioni.

He talked about why he went after Darko and how much he expects from him (a lot by the way). He explained why he went to Argentina but didn't make a serious attempt to sign Nocioni or Varejao (way too expensive for any increase in talent over Darko). Most interesting he discussed how he values players. He explains what he looks for in draft picks and free agents and how he views value. He reference the 6 to 5 difference compared to a 2 to 1 or 3 to 1 difference. Basically he saw the differences between Darko and Nocioni and Varejao as maybe a small difference in player skill but a large difference in the cost to acquire them. He can be satisfied if he doesn't get the better player if the cost is right. I am explaining it poorly but he made a lot of sense when he talked about it.

Darko signed for a reasonable 3 year, $21m contract with the Grizzlies.

Sure, it's easy for Wallace to say now that he didn't make a 'serious' attempt at Nocioni. I guess we'll never know how serious the Griz were, but we do know that Noc never signed an offer sheet. And even without such a concrete threat, Paxson jumped at the chance to sign Noc to a 5 year deal. (5 years! 5. Five. I'm still shocked whenever I write that. 5 years)

There's the idea that by signing Noc before having to match an offer from the Griz, Pax saved the Bulls some money. But if there was truly was no 'serious' attempt in the first place by Chris Wallace to court Noc, then Paxson got played. I guess that's the gamesmanship of restricted free agency.

But some are playing that game better than others, like the Bucks and Cavs, who are successfully waiting out for the market to crap out on their own restricted FAs. Yes, Nocioni is a good fit and will help this season, but I can't help but wonder what serious money (and most importantly, flexibility) Pax could've saved if he just called Chris Wallace's bluff.

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I wouldn't

really say that the bucks are successfully waiting out for the market to crap out, since they did grossly overpay for their own restricted FA Mo Williams (6 years 51 million). The reported next highest anyone else was going to offer him was in the range of 30 million and that was the Heat.

by fsubrett48 on Sep 15, 2007 6:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Wallace?

What does Chris Wallace know about evaluating talent?

by Mike Aparicio on Sep 15, 2007 11:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I know you wont agree

but keeping noce is going to ge a big part in the bulls doing damage this year and in the future. First of all he took less money to stay here from what i read somewhere. I really think without noc the bulls would not have come this far this fast.You have to admit his energy and passion is contagious and without people like him you dont win championships and more important you dont win fans hearts.I like Wallace but not once last season did i see the heart he had with the pistons from the years before. Chandler may not have been all that great but with him as young as he is and with his issues with skiles, i still atleast saw him with a whole lot of passion. Give me a noce over a gordon or a wallace any day, every day. Atleast i know that noc is not playing only for the contract which i know gordon does. And just in case there are any doubts Noah is going to take over ben wallaces shoes soon and we can dump his salary.

by glycen on Sep 16, 2007 5:59 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

baloney.

by hscs on Sep 16, 2007 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Rationalization or Justification?

I'm going with the former.

Paxson overpaid for intangibles, IMO.

Get that out of Tyrus' House!!!!

by cubbybear on Sep 16, 2007 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Win the hearts and minds of the people?

And I suppose - with Nocioni and only with Nocioni - the Bulls will be greeted as liberators around the NBA.

by jpx7 on Sep 17, 2007 3:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now's the time...

...when I mention that Darko is a loser and he will fail in Memphis just like he's failed everywhere.

Not that it has anything to do with your main point, Matt. I agree with you. We coulda gotten Chapu for cheaper.

In totally unrelated news (but not worth a diary), I was at the LSU/Virginia Tech game last week, and walked right by Tyrus (almost bumped into him, actually). He didn't seem that tall, but did seem to be having a great time back on his old campus. Maybe he was wearing flip-flops.

Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Sep 16, 2007 10:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

While reading the latest on Charlie Bell

and his not-so-kindly comments about the Bucks, I was thinking about the Noc signing, and (since it's a done deal I have no control over anyway) I've decided to think of it in the context of team atmosphere. I remember reading stuff from Pax several times about how the team would take care of all the players as long as the guys bought into the team concept and the team was having success. No matter what anyone thinks of Noc as an individual player, I don't think you can reasonably dispute that he's been a good "team player" in willing to come off the bench and play the role Skiles asks of him and all, and the team has had success.

So, regardless of whether the Bulls could have locked Noc up more cheaply or let him hang through free agency, there's something to be said about the message this sends to other players, that Pax means it when he says it's not all about individual stats, and for not having anyone out there blasting the Bulls for going back on their word. Maybe they did overpay for him a bit, but personally I find it a more tasteful way of doing business than the Cavs' method.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Sep 16, 2007 11:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree -

they may have overpaid but rewarding someone for playing team basketball is a powerful, good message.

by chgobr on Sep 17, 2007 6:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

beats "eat your vegetables"

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

All this crying

over maybe paying a player(not in my opinion), a few extra million, when we have team of players except hinrich who, have no heart whatsoever on the court. If you would all rather play a one dimensional player like gordon ten a year well lets just agree to disagree on this. Noc is going to really help and maybe money wont be the issue anymore. All i know is that noc is not going to back down from anyone and will do what is expected of him and be a good team mate.

by glycen on Sep 17, 2007 1:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I already called baloney

but even Mongo would have a hard time buying what you're selling.

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm thankful that

the 'worst' our GM can muster is overpaying a player like Noce.

Look, he absolutely overpaid. There's not an argument there. However, would paying Noce less have gotten us under the cap in the next five years? I don't see any reasonably plausible argument for proving so...
What's the harm (assuming that Noce's contract does not keep us from resigning Deng, Gordon and Tyrus-in two years)? Of course, if we don't resign our key players and the cap hit is our excuse, than you can forget everything I've just said... ....I know that I will pretend to.

by CookDing on Sep 17, 2007 8:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

luxury tax hit should never be an excuse now

There's been rumblings either way on that issue from management, and I suppose we won't know until Deng and/or Gordon get signed.

They're capped out anyway, true. But my point over flexibility is that Noc is untradeable with such a long-term deal. But maybe there is no such thing in the NBA.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 17, 2007 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"Untradeable"

is not in the lexicon of the NBA. See Wally Szerbiak, Raef Lafrentz (multiple times, shockingly), Theo Ratliff, Chris Webber, Al Harrington, Steve Francis (just plain, shockingly) etc. The NBA is littered w/ more McHale's than it likes to admit.
I do agree that getting rid of Nocioni would be tough especially if one considers his impending (Dear god, let it be impending) reduction in minutes.
I understand what you're throwing out there, Matt. We paid a lot for somebody that, if anything, should expect to see less minutes.. ...if the Bulls have drafted well and are developing their young talent. However, some jackass GM could be convinced to take a guy that averaged 20-10 for the final two months of '06 and plays well with others. I'd never make that trade but McHale, Knight, the Hawks, Orlando, Pacers, Denver, Mavs and Knicks could all be potential suitors.
That's not to say they will be, it's just to say it's not an impossibility. Morever, it's not even too improbable.
For me, the jury's still out on this move though I reserve the right to get illogically critical of it at some point in the future.
The way I see it, if we resign those players that we should, we'll never sniff a player of Noce's ability/age in the next 3-5 years anyway. The MLE-type signings are a joke anymore, which makes this our last chance to add really make this sort of signing.
If Tyrus takes Noce's minutes and we trade him to another team for cap relief and a couple of nice picks, than it's a good move. Plenty of teams have players on crappy contracts that end in 1-2 years that float around 7 million. Plenty of those teams would probably unload those players for the price of a pick if they could get Noce.
That's my flawed thinking anyway.
have fun with it.

by CookDing on Sep 17, 2007 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

All of this crying over Noc's contract

makes me want to give you a noogie. You're like a 12 year old with stuff. He's really not that overpaid, and his contract isn't untradeable. The MLE deal was 5 years for $32 mil this year, right? Noc got $38? He's 27? He's in his prime. It's not that bad of a deal when you compare it to Lewis's $112 mil. Now that's a bad deal.

Pushing comments to the right for a while now!!!-------------------->

by bullshooter on Sep 17, 2007 10:23 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Word

Score. Or do not score. There is no clutch.

by preverbal on Sep 17, 2007 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

BTW, did anybody see this little nugget?

--Forward Viktor Khryapa scored a team-high 16 points to lead Russia to a 75-71 quarterfinal win over France at the European championships in Spain. Russia reached the EuroBasket semifinals for the first time in 10 years. Through the first seven games of the tournament, Khryapa averaged 11.3 points and 7.6 rebounds. The 6-foot-9 forward played sparingly for the Bulls last season.

Viktor isn't dead, yet.
from the USA Today.

Pushing comments to the right for a while now!!!-------------------->

by bullshooter on Sep 17, 2007 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I started a new diary for Veektor

http://blogabull.com/story/2007/9/17/114655/871

(Because we really need to keep this thread to Noc-whining and tales of grit. It's a weekly feature.)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 17, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

good call.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Sep 17, 2007 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc

Noc is a solid 15 pt a game guy, who brings energy, frustrates other teams bigs, and brings a lot of intangibles that help motivate the rest of the team....plus he's a decent clutch performer (Something outside of Ben G the Bulls have lacked over the past several years).

I think getting Noc for $7.6M a year is hardly a bad deal when you consider his intangibles and the fact that he can easily give you a 15PPG average if healthy.

The health concerns are a bit of a risk, but I'm much happier with Noc (even with his defensive lapses) than I would be to let him walk and have us overspend for a probable bust in Darko. Noc is a proven commodity, one who's excelled when the games matter the most (for Argentina in the Olympics and for the Bulls in the 05-06 playoffs where he was one of the best players in the entire first round, even if it came in a losing effort). Also typically for every Noc defensive lapse, he'll make it up and then some with a forced charge and/or a nice offensive gritty play. I know Noc was ineffective last year in the playoffs/second half, but then again he was hardly healthy and he had to sit out a bunch of the offseason just to get his health back.

Did we overpay for Noc at $38M? For a backup player, maybe a bit sure....but Noc is a solid 6th man and one who could start for several other teams, and might even start for us someday if we make a play for Kobe using Deng as bait (something I'm all for as I think Deng will be a nice stat filler but one who doesn't have that killer instinct that many championship contenders need).

Teams need gritty players, Big Ben was less gritty last year than he's been in the past, and Noc when healthy can add us a spark that was missing last year at the end of the year.

Also, I love Deng, and I think he's as solid as they come for a #2 guy, but I don't see him as a superstar, and think others in the league may right now--especially given Deng's age, and I think if we play the Kobe card, the value in Deng might help get that deal done. It would be very interesting to keep BG and Kobe and have 2 of the better clutch players on one team......and maybe try to deal Deng and Captain Kirk along with 2 #1's for Kobe.....it may have to wait until the trading deadline, but I think the Bulls are unbeatable with a BG-Kobe-Noc-Thomas-B. Wallace-Thabo-Khryapa-Noah lineup......Kobe can play more time at the #1 too if necessary, or we can try to swap Thabo with BG and have BG back at super sub status......I think if the Bulls won it all or were very close, Ben would be much less resistant to come off the bench. Sure this is a lot for Kobe, but it's totally worth it, and for the Lakers they'd get what I term a "perceived" superstar, a solid PG/Defender--all star caliber, and 2 late first round draft picks for Kobe. They wouldn't take a hit much either as far as talent is concerned and if Deng truly became that superstar he's perceived as, the Bulls hardly would be hurt by it having the better player in Kobe at their side.

I think Deng is solid all around, but I don't think he excels enough in any area to be a true superstar. He's a nice 2nd option, and he'd continue to be so on the Lakers, with Odom finally getting that chance to shine.

by majoyenrac on Sep 17, 2007 12:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

A bit early for drinks maybe?

Not that I have any beef with Nocioni but I think someone hit the sauce early.

15 ppg, intangibles, 6th man... All those are well and good. But still 38 million over 5 years is a bit too much. Considering we still have contract talks with BG and Deng coming.

To say that Deng is a 2nd option is just silly. Did you watch the Miami sweep?

Personally, I'm looking forward to a healthy Noc. He would really do some good when we need fresh legs. But if his foot continues to screw with him, I think Pax is gonna look mighty foolish this year.

醉生梦死

by blackmage71 on Sep 17, 2007 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

Who knew Nocioni would become such a legendary figure? The stupid mistakes he makes on a regular basis seem to be frustrating enough that a relatively fair consensus would be established by now. I don't see why his alleged heroics (if Nocioni scores a lot it usually means no one else is, which is very bad) need to be retold at the expense of the rest of the team. Isn't that an affront to Nocioni's me-last grittitude?

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

with a switch of names

you could make this same argument about other Bulls, and you'd be on the other side of the argument.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Sep 17, 2007 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not really

I may have gone overboard with the consensus bit. There doesn't seem to be a reasonable one for any player, unless you define consensus by what what Matt says. I'm okay with that definition by the way.

Nocioni drooling is often ridiculous, and his limitations are painfully obvious. It would be impossible to conjure anything close about other members of the roster.

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

really?

There is a lot of drooling on this site, so much so that Matt might want to look into marketing blog-a-bull bibs. One problem with drooling is the associated close-mindedness that goes along with it. I can think of three players that I could make the "glaring hole in their game" argument about, or at least seen it made already on this site. Doesn't mean it's true, but the Noc bashing is legendary now.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Sep 17, 2007 2:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I realize there is a lot of drooling

but Deng's all around game, Hinrich's unrivaled defensive abilities, and Gordon's whatever-it-is-he's-overrated-by (I'm really not sure - is Thomas your #3?) are at least up for discussion. Relevant basketball discussion. Few go on and on about grit, heart, and the clutch playoff mojo they possess. Noce luv crosses the goofy line by miles.

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I watched the Miami Sweep

I watched the Miami Sweep and Yes Deng looked fantastic, unstoppable even....but then I watched Detroit and the other 3 seasons of Deng's career, and I guess I'm just not ready to say Deng's a superstar based on one series with mostly Antoinne Walker guarding him (As Riley put the defensive pressure mostly on Ben Gordon--who also lit them up).

Deng's a solid all around guy. Easily better all around than Noc, but I don't think Deng's ever going to be our superstar. I like him as a player and as an ambassador for Sudan, etc and he's a tireless worker, but I still think outside fo that Miami series, he's a non factor in the 4th qtr (I remember most of last season, Phx for one, Dallas at home for another, where Luol got 99% of his stats in qtrs 1-3, then was a non factor in Q4....I'm just posting those as those were two games I was at against good teams that Deng disappeared and went into the "Let Kirk and BG save us" mode.

Deng might have the tools to be an all star (heck he's there already) but I don't think he's got the tools to be a superstar.

And if Deng was out for a Kobe swap, I'm glad we have Noc as a solid backup who could be a starter....

by majoyenrac on Sep 17, 2007 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Debating the contract and Noc's

value is getting old. At least training camp is finally coming. I don't have a major issue with the contract and believe it will remain a tradeable contract as long as the foot injuries don't return.

If you want to defend Noc? There are plenty of objective legitmate reasons to defend the resigning of Noc without resorting to ridiculously overvaluing cliches like grit.

Talk about Nocioni spacing the floor and opening up the lane for Deng's cuts. Talk about how high his TS%. Talk about all the turnovers created by his flopping. Talk about the need for at least one above-average offensive player coming off the bench. There's enough reasons that actually involve Noc's ability to play basketball that there's no need to drift into hyperbole about his character in order to defend his resigning.

by Scotter on Sep 17, 2007 4:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Grit Talk

I posted that Noc is a solid 15PPG scorer, and strong defender, who plays well in the clutch, but then I mention the word grit to you guys, and suddenly I get comments saying my post was cliche'd etc. I'm sorry I didn't use a word you liked, but come on, your rebuttal to me because I used the word grit you guys lambast me......(and for the record, Grit is more than just a cliche, it is something that is just as important as spacing etc, especially when a lot of guys have the skills but not hte heart in the NBA today, and especially when you consider that a lot of these Bulls go through moments where they disappear on the court, having a big energy guy come in there and get them riled up is a fantastic asset....otherwise we'd see quite a few moments of the Detroit series or New Jersey games, etc....moments where the young Bulls get wound up going through the motions. It's that "grit", the hated word, that made Paxson sign and possibly overpay for Big Ben, and that grittiness which made Scott Skiles an effective PG in the league for his career.......it is an important non statistical factor in the NBA...)

by majoyenrac on Sep 18, 2007 7:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't just responding to you, but

your comments certainly apply. Here's the problem. Noc being a strong defender is very debatable. There is enough to evidence to argue convincingly that he's above-average, but he's not a particuarly strong defender. For example the last two years, the Bulls have played significantly better defense with Noc off the court. Being clutch is again debatable, but I'll give it to you because it's not worth having that debate again.

I'll assume Noc's grit is beyond reproach, but I sure hope that Paxson overpaid for Wallace because he was considered the best defensive player in the league and not because of his grit. Besides I'm not sure sneaking a headband on the court and then getting caught like a third grader meets the standard for gritty. And all of Skiles' grit wasn't enough to turn him into even an average defensive player. It was Skiles' ability to make 3's that allowed to him have several slightly above-average seasons in the NBA, and a slightly below average career. (Something I found kind of amusing is that Skiles' career TO rate (13.1) is higher than any season of Ben Gordon's career) If Noc's energy, grit, and cute accent have such clear value then you would think the Bulls would actually have managed to play better offense or defense with Noc on the on the court at some point during his career. But they haven't. +/- stats should capture the impact of grit, energy, and any other cliche. Yet, the Bulls have always statistically played better both on offense and defense with him off the court. I better stop now. If I keep this line of argment up, I'll end u hating Noc's contract too.

by Scotter on Sep 18, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Too-Shay

Now that was a better rebute, and I guess the reason why I wasn't the biggest fan of the last one is that i thought you were responding in a thread about my original post.

We'll just have to see how things pan out. I don't hate the Noc signing because if we have to make a trade, we can use either Noc or Deng and not lose too much....Deng's better than Nocioni, but the difference isn't quite night and day.

I would argue that Nocioni is a "good defender" definately not tops in the league or anything, but definately not at the bottom of the league eitehr. I think when Nocioni's on his guy, he's pretty solid, the problem is that Noc likes to double team and too often forgets about his man which leaves his man wide open for an easy basket......I do think Noc more than makes up for this. The part of your argument that is a bit flawed with Noc on the court vs him not on the court was especially true last year when he was forced into a 4 role, (a role maybe if we had a 7 foot C around wouldn't be awful) but was too hard for the Bulls when we have a 6'7" C who's listed at 6'9" and our tallest guy is a frail (but getting stronger) Deng.....No defense could withstand that, even with great defenders. So adding PJ's size (and the fact that PJ is and always was a solid defender) is going to skew those Noc numbers unfavorably for Andres.

But yeah, I'm beating a dead horse now. I liked your argument on my posts, even though I disagree. And I think we did overpay Big Ben a bit because of all his hustle etc in Detroit. I still like the Big Ben signing, but I don't think we got anything from Big Ben until mid Dec after headbandgate....I hope a lot of that was Ben having to get used to his surroundings, Skiles schemes, and the pressure of being the #1 guy. I think Ben will bounce back a bit this year and have better numbers than he did last year, even given his age, although I don't think he'll be close to his detroit peak.

by majoyenrac on Sep 18, 2007 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually the flaw in my on/off court argument

isn't so much that he's replaced by the likes of P.J. Brown and Tyrus Thomas, although that's certainly a factor in terms of defense. the biggest reason for Noc's poor on/off rating is all the minutes he played with the Duhon/Hinrich backcourt over the last couple of years. For example, last year he played 25% off his minutes in a lineup of Duhon, Hinrich, Deng, Nocioni, and Wallace that had 38.2 winning %. When Noc plays with Hinrich and Gordon in the backcourt, the results are alot more positive.

Basically whenever Duhon is on the floor without Gordon, Duhon is a major liability. The Hinrich Duhon backcourt has been very bad for the Bulls because Duhon makes Hinrich less effective by pushing him to SG, and Hinrich doesn't create enough offense from the SG position to compensate for Duhon's inability to create offense the way Gordon does. If the Bulls end up keeping Duhon this year, they would be wise to simply use Duhon as Hinrich's backup and not play them together.

by Scotter on Sep 19, 2007 1:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We know that would be wise

But it'll never happen as Skiles loves Duhon, even after Duhon misses practices, etc. (something I can't believe Duhon would dare do) Skiles will love to keep Duhon on this team. It's a shame, but I think it's true....otherwise why didn't he throw Thabo out there early in the season just to get Thabo that much needed experience.

I wish Pax would find a way to rid Duhon of the Bulls. I don't think Duhon's a bad backup, but he's just not the right fit for the Bulls. He's a decent defender, but this team has enough defense and too little offense, so his defensive prowess is lost.....and it's especially magnified when Kirk slides into the 2 guard slot.

by majoyenrac on Sep 19, 2007 7:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

restricted FA news

Charlie Bell signs 5-year (5!), $18m offer sheet with Miami.

That's an interesting move. Miami could really use a guy like Bell, considering the health issues with Williams and Wade. And tacking on a 5th year may be just enough for Milwaukee to let him go (that and the supposed bad-blood over negotiations). But that 5th year means you have Charlie Bell for 5 years. and if the Brian Scalibrine era has proven anything, it's not as much the money as the years on a contract.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 17, 2007 4:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

that's so long

Still, I bet the buyout is cheap, cheap, cheap.

by hscs on Sep 17, 2007 4:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

bad blood

being more in Charlie's head than anywhere else. He took exception to their unwillingness to agree to the number of years he wanted, and the options for those years. Sort of because if the Bucks overpaid for some Bartelstein clients, then they should over pay him, too. I think Charlie should look at his agent's actions a bit.

And yes, it's the years on the contract. See Dan Gadz for a really bad contract.

by KT on Sep 17, 2007 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

worth noting

Bell replaces Kapono's production for less money. There's obviously a gap in the 3 point shooting department, but JK isn't likely to hit .514 of his long range shots again, and Bell should shoot closer to his 05-06 .423 when he played a role closer to what he'll do in Miami.

by hscs on Sep 18, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs