Like tallying praise to find out the favorite son
It may not get as much press as Luol Deng's globe-trotting ways, but Ben Gordon was doing his own similar deal over the weekend in his hometown, cheering up the community while dressed for apparently some super-cool funeral.
Got me thinking (this is what happens during the down days of the NBA offseason, sorry) about how Ben and Luol are so interlinked. Both became Bulls on the same night and thus started their all-important contract clocks simultaneously. They're the most productive players on the team, individually and in tandem.
But whenever their future is discussed by fans, Deng's position is always assumed secured while Gordon is on less stable ground. And some of that, as was discussed on the bullsbeat podcast last week, is from the idea that Deng's more likely to take some sort of 'hometown discount' to stay with the team. It makes sense due to his famously charitable ways, but Deng's still an NBA player with no reason to not get every penny of his true worth. And heck, maybe charity is a reason for Deng to demand more money, not less.
Deng's also always lauded for being the hardest worker on the team, although by all indications Gordon shares that trait in abundance. In one of the several vignettes on Deng shown on national TV over the season, there was a quote from John Paxson regarding Deng's work ethic (and I'm paraphrasing off of memory) saying that when he sees a car at the Berto Center when he's there in the morning, he first thinks it's Ben Gordon, and if not Gordon then Luol Deng.
I don't care to question who does more charity or who spends more time in the gym, I'm trying to get at why Deng and Gordon can be so similar yet their perceived futures so different. My reasoning for this discrepancy is while they may get equitable in praise from management, only Gordon gets those bad knocks as well.
Some of it is explicit, as in Paxson's quoted desire to get more size in the backcourt over the offseason (speaking of which, that didn't exactly happen did it). But the biggest reason to perceive Gordon's future as more tenuous is how he's been jerked to and from the starting lineup by Skiles. No matter what merits you may see in a firestarting 6th man, it's never a glowing endorsement to be replaced in a lineup by Chris Duhon (police lineup, maybe). It probably eats at Gordon as well, knowing his value has likely been hurt around the league as they see a supposedly limited gunner when he believes (and rightfully so in my opinion) that he can be an elite scorer. He's more Gilbert Arenas than Juan Dixon.
In the near future it's possible both Deng and Gordon can continue their parallel careers with fat Pax-signed long-term contracts in hand. But the feeling I've gotten over the years is that while Deng is certain to get his paper, they're still not sure on Gordon. And it's not the headlines from being the NBA's finest citizen that gives Deng this edge, it's that Pax and Skiles still don't seem to know what they have with Gordon. It's been a while since the last time he was coming off the bench, so for all I know he is now as loved by the organization as Luol. But if there's even a whisper of 'Ben seems to give us a better lift off the bench' I'll know they won't be paying him to stay.
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gordon extension
by Sambossanova on Aug 27, 2007 12:51 AM CDT 0 recs
Rumor has it...
http://www.fannation.com/truth_and_rumors/view/19312
by Diabolo on Aug 27, 2007 4:08 AM CDT 0 recs
The Mini-two dilemma?
Given that he's been so sound in his team-building (and that he drafted Ben before Luol), I would be very surprised if Paxson let Ben get away. very surprised. The truth of the matter is that the likelihood of getting a 6'6'' guard that can do what Gordon does is minimal.. ...and that's being generous. Who are the candidates? Outside of Kobe, I see Micheal Redd's and Kevin Martin's and no way in hell that those types of guards get dealt for anything resembling equal value.
by CookDing on Aug 27, 2007 7:25 AM CDT 0 recs
I thought Pax
It would not surprise me at all if Ben wants more than Pax is willing to give. Pax did indicate after the season was over that he would work with Ben but if they couldn't reach an agreement there would be no hard feelings. We shall see.
by sue369 on Aug 27, 2007 8:45 AM CDT 0 recs
even weirder than Deng's charity work
Gordon isn't a non-profit slouch either. He's just not a globetrotter, and Big Brothers Big Sisters doesn't make headlines.
by hscs on Aug 27, 2007 9:23 AM CDT 0 recs
Are you short on hits this month
I don't want to bash the guy and so I'd point out that even with his 1-8 this year, he's still hitting over 40% in those situations over his career (according to a hollinger piece that I don't have a link to right now).
Gordon's propensity for TO's is what's killing him. I'd even go so far as to say that if Duhon hadn't forgotten how to shoot this year, Gordon would still be coming off of the bench, and that Gordon's starting has more to do with Duhon's lousy play than Gordon's emergence.
by bullshooter on Aug 27, 2007 9:29 AM CDT 0 recs
I am short on hits. It's August.
I know Gordon has flaws, and I think you're right that they get less upset when someone like Luol doesn't bother to dribble as opposed to Gordon who has to create shots for himself and the team but gets the TOs. Skiles seems especially intolerant of TOs, but that is likely for all ballcoaches.
And he's not 'just' a shooter, he's a scorer. There's a difference. And the Bulls should pay a premium since they can't freaking score.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 9:38 AM CDT
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no, right now he's a shooter
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 9:43 AM CDT
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what are these 'per-game' stat you speak of?
And this just in: Gordon is not as good as Kobe or Wade.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 9:58 AM CDT
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There was a really good analysis
That's not the point though. If you admit that BG isn't as good as Kobe or Wade, then why suggest that he should get that kind of money. Wade's deal averages a little more than $14 mil over it's three years. If Gordon isn't that good, why tie up the money?
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 10:25 AM CDT
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he isn't going to get that much
Gordon does have a high career USG-r, and he was 9th in FGA last season, but who else is aggressively trying to score? Nocioni?
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 10:33 AM CDT
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if the question is
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 10:57 AM CDT
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that said
And there's always sign/trade possibilities as a restricted FA.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 11:01 AM CDT
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Get it right
Second, if by "usage" you mean the Hollinger stat, you dont understand it. Points versus shots taken to get points is True Shooting % not Usage. Gordon leads the team in TS%, as he did last year as well, and he took a strong step up in it last year, as did Deng and Kirk.
by californiachicagoan on
Aug 28, 2007 12:18 AM CDT
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Bullshooter was talking about usage rate, not
by Scotter on
Aug 28, 2007 12:34 AM CDT
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not TS%
TS% is not points vs shots taken to get points - as points would count free throws and free throws is not part of TS%. TS% only balances a FG% with 3ptFG% so you get a true number. As 40% from 3 is better then 40% from field and therefore if you shot 40% from both inside and outside of arch your TS% would be higher (of course depends on # of shots taken from each region)
by NY Chicago Fan on
Aug 28, 2007 6:53 AM CDT
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Hamilton
Look at Rip and Gordon at age 23.
http://basketball-reference.com/fc/pcm.cgi?req=1&cum=1&p1=gordobe01&y1=2007&p2=hamil ri01&y2=2002
Gordon outperformed him, but not as much as I would've liked. I wonder how much simply cutting out the unforced turnovers would make him.
This is a high-end comparison I admit, but I see Ben's game to be more like Ray Allen. So still not as good as Wade or Kobe, but pretty good ;-)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 11:04 AM CDT
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wish deng could shoot free throws good like rip
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 11:10 AM CDT
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The Ray Allen comparison is good one
by Scotter on
Aug 27, 2007 2:00 PM CDT
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Here's a link to a comparison of their combined
by Scotter on
Aug 27, 2007 2:05 PM CDT
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Duhon forgot how to shoot?
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 9:57 AM CDT
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Maybe the point is
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 9:59 AM CDT
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Deng plays within his limitations
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 10:12 AM CDT
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that's how I feel about Deng too
But there's a value in a player who does try those things. If the team was all Luol Dengs, they'd have the coach Norman Dale offense of 4 passes and a set shot.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 10:20 AM CDT
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No, there's value in players
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 11:50 AM CDT
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he'll hit them
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 1:18 PM CDT
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Gordon's got enough events
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 1:38 PM CDT
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not really
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 1:53 PM CDT
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C'mon
This diary is about why Gordon should get big bucks. He thinks it's about respect. You say it comes down to mostly luck. I say it's about making baskets and winning.
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 3:08 PM CDT
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If you want to compare Jordan and Gordon that
by Scotter on
Aug 27, 2007 3:19 PM CDT
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I thought winning was the only thing.
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 3:20 PM CDT
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and it's about the fire and the passion
hscs didn't say gordon's contract should be based his luck, just that the game-winning shots come down to luck. That 'stat' is a non-issue, unless you really believe Gordon clams up to end games. And even if he did there's not enough evidence to support it.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 3:21 PM CDT
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rats
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 3:23 PM CDT
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wow, you guys were waiting for that one
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 9:42 PM CDT
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Jordan/Gordon comparison
Gordon simply does not have the ability to score in the ways the Jordan did. For example Jordan could take a defender down on the block and bury a much higher % shot with the clock winding down.
So in clutch situations Jordan could be expected to score more often because he had more to work with.
Getting back to the point: Even though there were defenses draw up to defend Jordan and everyone knew where the ball was going there was a reason Jordan was more successful. Simply put Jordan was a better player. As noted, not just taking the last shot but in nearly aspect of a 48 minute game.
Another factor in the situation is the Bulls often paired Jordan in the back court with guards who were good spot up shooters. Namely John Paxson and Steve Kerr. If teams focused on Jordan he would make them pay with a timely pass. All this is well documented in finals history. One of the knocks on Kirk has been his shooting percentage.
by Rankdog on
Aug 28, 2007 6:20 PM CDT
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Deng - Ben
Anyways, Gordon is a more efficient scorer than Deng. He had a 57.2 TS% to Deng's 56%. So you are wrong there.
Meanwhile, a players value is not his lack of flaws. 5 average players do not win championships. Basketball is a team game. You want guys who are exceptional at things, and you cover for their weaknesses as a team. No matter, how you game plan you can't make a good all around player into a great rebounder/passser/shooter etc.
By the way, if Gordon isn't a "scorer" with his 7.8 FT/48min then what is Deng who shoots 30% fewer? Deng is as much or arguably more of a jump shooter than Gordon. Just because he takes the shorter ones doesn't make it better. Not unless he hits 50% more of them to cover the 2 vs 3 points difference, so until Luol shoots 60+% from the field, I'll take Gordon's bombs.
by californiachicagoan on
Aug 28, 2007 12:01 AM CDT
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I like the general point your making,
by Scotter on
Aug 28, 2007 12:42 AM CDT
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Gordon's emergence
He went from shooting 41.1, and 42.2 to 45.5 FG%. That definitely says "emergence" to me. Meanwhile even his assists went up to 3.6 from 3.0, with only a 0.1 increase in his turnovers. His true shooting percentage (hollinger) went from 52.6 and 53.1 to 57.2 His PER went from 14.92 to 14.59 to 18.31
His emergence is undeniable. Well, if you believe in stats that is.
by californiachicagoan on
Aug 27, 2007 11:48 PM CDT
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I believe in stats
In fact, the more I compare him to guys like Richard Hamilton and Jason Terry, the less I think he's worth $10 mil/year.
by bullshooter on
Aug 28, 2007 10:06 AM CDT
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market value (if there's such a thing in the NBA)
I mean, even if Ben is only at that level of player (he may be as soon as next season, and a few years younger) it'll cost ya. by ya I mean the Bulls.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 28, 2007 10:22 AM CDT
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Interesting
by bullshooter on
Aug 28, 2007 10:41 AM CDT
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he's improved
by hscs on
Aug 28, 2007 10:24 AM CDT
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Where are you looking?
by bullshooter on
Aug 28, 2007 10:45 AM CDT
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better is better
by hscs on
Aug 28, 2007 10:55 AM CDT
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but his TO's went up by .8
by bullshooter on
Aug 28, 2007 10:58 AM CDT
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assist to turnover ratio
by hscs on
Aug 28, 2007 11:20 AM CDT
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From you response
by bullshooter on
Aug 28, 2007 11:40 AM CDT
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I think Gordon's future is more tenuous
While Luol is far from perfect, he doesn't suffer from that particular, synergistic constellation of defects.
All that being said, Gordon is a gorgeous player to watch when he is on his game. And let's be honest, if he improved his scoring average to 25/26 points a game, the other flaws would be tolerable.
by 1958ChiTown on Aug 27, 2007 10:05 AM CDT 0 recs
BTW, Gordon apparently
"Ben Gordon hopes to be able to work out a contract extension with the Bulls before the team's Oct. 31 season opener against the Nets. Gordon already has changed agents as he seeks his new contract. He left Billy Ceisler and is now represented by Raymond Brothers, who's based out of Los Angeles. Without going into specific dollar amounts and revealing how much he thinks he's worth, he simply said he wants to be compensated fairly."
by 1958ChiTown on
Aug 27, 2007 10:16 AM CDT
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yo
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 10:17 AM CDT
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I think he can get to that level
The fouling is an issue, and like TOs they rankle Skiles.
The undersized bit means less every year. They're a top-5 defense, being short seems to just make us feel sad more than affecting the results. Gordon won't ever post up guys like Paul Pierce but if he scores he scores.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 10:17 AM CDT
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Averaging 25/26 ppg is kind of irrelevant, unless
by Scotter on
Aug 27, 2007 2:30 PM CDT
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Long time dream
Frankly, all you brickbats get off Gordon. It's about time people realise that he's the spark we need coming off the bench. He's more effective in stretches than he is leading the frontline. The sooner everyone gets that, especially Gordon, the happier we'd be. Getting Thabo to be the long guard that holds the fort for Gordon to come in is the way to go. He's a more effective version of Duhon, especially when he gets a few more years under his belt.
Keep the core. We've always been seen as a jump shooting team with a great backcourt. Let's keep it that way. If it ain't broke, don't fix it till it is.
by blackmage71 on Aug 27, 2007 10:42 AM CDT 0 recs
a team that can't score
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 10:47 AM CDT
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heh
And out of several reasons why Gordon being benched is a bad idea, Thabo looks miles away from being a good offensive player.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Aug 27, 2007 10:55 AM CDT
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Tough tell about Thabo
by Colossus on
Aug 29, 2007 10:56 AM CDT
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link
He just wants respect.
by Option27 on Aug 27, 2007 12:53 PM CDT 0 recs
Gordon's Improvement and Deng's
Sure he has turnover issues but if you look at all the guards who score 20 plus points a game and do a little bit of dribbling, almost all of them have turnover issues. I hope gordon gets a 10-11 million a year contract right now and proves everyone wrong next year. Maybe that will end all the insane talk of thabo starting instead of ben BS. Unless kobe becomes available and the bulls are willing to pay then I would like gordon to be the bulls starting guard for some years to come.
by Sambossanova on Aug 27, 2007 12:55 PM CDT 0 recs
I guess I have
by sue369 on
Aug 27, 2007 1:47 PM CDT
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in his defense
by Sambossanova on
Aug 27, 2007 3:07 PM CDT
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It's a liability
by bullshooter on
Aug 27, 2007 3:16 PM CDT
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the rest of the team has to play well too
by hscs on
Aug 27, 2007 4:37 PM CDT
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BG
Imo, Gordon's value to the Bulls (perhaps not his value as a player, but his value to his team) has been sorely underrated this off-season, while Deng has somehow leaped from underrated to overrated in the span of a year.
by nas on
Aug 27, 2007 7:10 PM CDT
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