Weekend project: role players who got guaranteed long-term contracts

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 1:26 PM CDT in News Comment 90 comments

This is a very unscientific list. I basically went through the salary pages (ESPN trade machine actually, since they had last year's expiring contracts still) and tried to pick out the players who were signed to long-term (4+ years) contracts as knowingly limited players. This kindof leaves out the Sam Dalemberts and Mike Dunleavys of the world who were given premium money based on youthful potential, height, or both. I don't think it's an insult to say that Nocioni has little of either.

The Bulls kindof know what Nocioni is: a quality bench player. He does some things well (3-point shooting, attacking the rim) but is limited. The league is littered with players who had put in seasons as good role players and were overpaid as a result. And it's not as much about the money as the commitment in years. Some of these guys don't make much but still are near impossible to deal because of the remaining length of the contract.

Feel free to add or remove names in the comments. Like I said this was just a glance at the rosters and using my memory to think of how long the contract was signed for at the time, what that player had done beforehand, and what the perceived 'fit' he had when signing the new deal.

Speedy Claxton
Eric Snow
Damon Jones
Donyell Marshall
Damon Jones
Ira Newble
Greg Buckner
Eduardo Najera
Reggie Evans
Austin Croshere
Nazr Mohammed
Adonal Foyle
Mike James
Bob Sura
Vlad Radmonovic
Brian Cardinal
Kenny Thomas
Vitaly Potapenko
Shane Battier

Kyle Korver
Danny Fortson
Earl Watson
Damien Wilkins
Rasho Nesterovic
Matt Harpring
Derek Fisher
Antonio Daniels
Darius Songaila
Etan Thomas
Cuttino Mobley
Tim Thomas
Pat Garrity
Hedo Turkoglu
Juwan Howard
Tony Battie
Brent Barry
Willie Green
Mike Miller

Antoine Walker
Brian Skinner
Mark Blount
Marko Jaric
Troy Hudson
Mark Madsen
Trenton Hassell
Jason Collins
Jerome James
Jared Jefferies
James Posey
Malik Rose
Raja Bell
Kurt Thomas
Joel Przybilla
Shareef Abdur-Rahim
Brian Scalabrine
Damon Stoudamire
Corey Maggette

There are some success stories on this list but not many. Nocioni may have had a better resume than a lot of these guys (he'll also soon be making more money than a lot of them too) but my reasoning behind this isn't that Nocioni is better or worse than the players listed, it's that he fits the profile of the type of player on this list: a long-term financial commitment to a bench player.

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well I can see one thing

I listed Damon Jones twice. I think that's appropriate

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 1:34 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

2 additions I would add are

Marcus Banks for sure and maybe Jamal Crawford.

by LD9 on Jul 7, 2007 1:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yes on banks

I'm not sure about Jamal. He was 23 when he signed and Isiah (and likely others) probably thought he could be a future star.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, I think Jamal fooled some people

He's a tricky case to follow because at times, he can put on a heck of an offensive show (game winners, 50+ point performances, etc)...but the other aspects of his game never really caught up.

I wouldn't put him on this list though...he has way more skill than pretty much everyone listed.

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 7, 2007 7:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Sad Thing

is I would only want about a handful of these players instead of Noc. I think this list proves that GM's over value players every season, and this season Pax was one of those people.

by Wade.Jones on Jul 7, 2007 1:48 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

pax also did it with tyson

but see my defense at the bottom

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the defense for Chandler

is easy. He was over 7 feet tall and an above average defender and rebounder. That's something everyone 'overpays' for.

by hscs on Jul 9, 2007 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Add to that...

...he was 23 and had shown improvement the previous year. Plus, he was showing that he might be a starter and could be a 30+ mpg player if he cut down on fouls (with maturity???). It was a no-brainer.

No one here is deluding themselves (or very few anyway), that Nocioni should play 30+ mpg, can/will improve over the life of the contract or should be a starter.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 9, 2007 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maggette would be earning his keep

if Dunleavy wasn't a dope, and he had the potential thing going at the time. I wish the Bulls would trade the Argentine Eddie Robinson for a a guy who shoots free throws at a ridiculous rate. (bonus Maggette trade rumor)

Jared Jeffries should probably be added. 4 not good seasons for the Wizards earned him a long term (4 years plus a player option for a 5th) deal with the Knicks.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 1:50 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

jeffries made it

What a horribly comprehensive list.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

jefferies is on there

sorry about the lack of ordering. It was originally by team (alphabetical) but I also randomly put in players on the list too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would the the Clippers

trade Maggette for Eddie Robinson. I continue to find it amazing that you started with Noc beening merely average and now have him at E-Rob levels. Absurd (Abturd?). But please give me the +/- one more time and by no means the points, FG, FT, boards, PER and charges against.

by EdNealy on Jul 7, 2007 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Dan Gadzuric, Joel Przybilla, Theo Ratliff

Granted these guys are tall, but Ratliff and JP never flashed more than one skill before the money and years rolled in. There was no potential to speak of. Gadzuric is a maybe because he was a good per minute guy.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 2:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Przybilla is on there

Gadzuric is a good one too...he was a good per-minute guy but I doubt the Bucks were thinking 'center of the future' when they signed him. Then again I can't remember who else they had.

I think I left Ratliff off because he made SO much money. That's a deal too awful even for this list.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It was Gadz or Zaza

and Larry Harris made the wrong decision.

Again, neither are the best in the world, but Zaza has a few in the world.

OTOH, GAdz played for Terry Stotts after the signing. Stotts has no idea how to coach anyone besides guards.

by KT on Jul 7, 2007 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ooh! Bobby Simmons!

And who knows what the Bucks are going to give Mo Williams. 5 years with a player option for eternity? And they let the antithesis of this list slip away.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 2:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

at least Simmons and Williams

were/are 24

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well

don't forget how often Nocioni started the year Deng was rehabbing, and this year at times too. You might say then that he was ~really~ a bench player the whole time.

By the same token I guess then you could pre-emptively add Ben Gordon to that list when he gets his contract this or next summer.

by thug life on Jul 7, 2007 2:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

don't take 'bench player' too literally

On a team that's competing to win the conference for the next few years, Nocioni is slated to be a bench player.

There are outstanding players off the bench too, and I don't think Nocioni is in the same category as Barbosa (young) and Ginobili (a lot better). And whether Ben Gordon returns to the bench (and who knows maybe I jump off a bridge when that happens anyway) doesn't diminish his status as a far better talent than Noc.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

In retrospect

Who was a worse starter on a Finals team? Oberto comes to mind, but your starters need to be better than Noce to consider your team elite.

by cubbybear on Jul 7, 2007 9:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I also think...

...Duncan, Ginobili and Parker are better than what the Bulls have. When you have a great player and two really good ones, you can afford a couple of good role players.

When you're trying to be a championship team without a "superstar" and just a number of really good players, you can't really afford any black holes. (I think this is one thing PaxJax and I can agree on in this matter.)

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2007 3:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Name dump for debate

Jerry Stackhouse
Mike Dunleavy
Troy Murphy
Jammal Tinsley
Jason Williams
Bredan Haywood
Peja Stockovic
Bobby Jackson
Stromile Swift
Erick Dampier
Tyron Lue
Rafer Alston
Sam Dalembart
TJ Ford
Marcus Camby
Larry Hughes
Raef LaFrentz

by LD9 on Jul 7, 2007 2:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

a lot of those guys were paid to be core players

whether they made it or not.

I'll accept Jackson, Lue (I don't remember the length of his deal though), and Alston

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax's arguement

for resigning Noc is that he is a core member.

by LD9 on Jul 7, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope that isn't his argument

for keeping Dushit around.

Gordon, Nocioni, Duhon, Khryapa for Gasol is a really bad idea.

by Colossus on Jul 7, 2007 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

meh

All the quotes I read (perhaps I missed one) were in regards to Eddie Robinson being a poster boy for the vague PaxSkiles try-hard philosophy. There wasn't any direct or indirect inclusion of Nocioni into a core. I will admit I no longer believe I know what Paxson values enough to state who the core is. By core I mean untouchable players in a trade, and Nocioni better not be untouchable.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 3:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed

If Pax really believes Nocioni is as important to keep as Gordon/Deng/Hinrich then this deal makes more sense. I think he's sorely mistaken in that evaluation though.

But I never thought before (like hscs) that Pax really believed the platitudes he's use when evaluating Nocioni. This contract makes me less sure, but I doubt Pax really thinks Nocioni is signed to be one of the top 4 or 5 contributors on the team.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

There's a thick silver lining, I promise

Think of it this way, now, instead of having to trade a third of the roster in a potential deal, Noc can be that filler. And if he takes time from Tyrus, it just means that Tyrus has to be accountable and that much more consistent in his own game to earn the minutes. I just don't see all the negatives you guys are trying to argue.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 7, 2007 10:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You could also argue

that Battier and Maggette were paid to be core players

by LD9 on Jul 7, 2007 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Jason Kapono

Pull Maggette off and put Kapono on.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 3:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i didn't do this summer

so you can have kapono as well as Matt Carroll and Luke Walton

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's obvious I'm very confused

at least I used my browser's find function to eliminate Kapono. I lose.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

According to my very limited estimation

Players close to or better than Noc (at least when they signed): Shane Battier, Derek Fisher, Cuttino Mobley, Juwan Howard, Mike Miller, Raja Bell, Corey Maggette

Players close to or worse than Noc (at least when they signed): Kyle Korver, Nazr Mohammed, Vlad Radmonovic, Joel Przybilla, a few others

Asterisk (is he good, or does he just take too many shots which inflates his value, in turn actually making him really bad?): Antoine Walker

My knowledge is not complete on all of these guys, so I would guess that I missed a few in each of the categories. However, even with that in mind, he appears to be among the top third of these players, and only definitely worse than the top sixth.

In conclusion, contracts are a lot like teams. You are gonna have some super awesome ones, some less than awesome ones, and some comparatively bad ones. How valuable--not how expensive--those contracts are determines how good your team is, and having this type of player be in the top quartile amongst these types of players is a good thing.

by Craig Hodges Explosion 3000 on Jul 7, 2007 3:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I sure hope something else happens this summer

because if it's non-stop Noc diaries from here until August, I might have to start following soccer.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 7, 2007 3:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

yeah, it's been a rough 4 whole days

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is a depressing list

by chgobr on Jul 7, 2007 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think counseling is in order

Can we talk about Tyrus's blocks now?

by cubbybear on Jul 7, 2007 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matt told me he is setting up a new site

to address Psychiatric disorders triggered by blogabull.

by chgobr on Jul 8, 2007 7:17 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't look at as 4 days

It's more like 5 more years.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hopefully

you can get over it before then.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 7, 2007 10:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know

What we REALLY need are some diaries about making a trade for a scoring big man. Or even a diary or two about trade scenarios for Kobe. I mean my god Nocioni is so boring.

by thug life on Jul 7, 2007 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

by EdNealy on Jul 7, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

duhon

I cant wait till duhon trade rumors start. Thats so much more exciting than talking about nocioni. At least we can all agree that Duhon shouldnt be back next year. Well he could be used for contract relief/trade, but i rather he get traded for something useful right now.

Anyone heard of any rumors? Maybe once earl boykins, Blake and Mo Williams get signed, the rumors will pick up.

by Sambossanova on Jul 7, 2007 4:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

honorary mention

The retired Shawn Bradley's contract would have expired after the 07-08 season.

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 5:15 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Who

would you want in return for Duon

by eross226 on Jul 7, 2007 6:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I don't fully agree with Turkoglu

He was signed by Orlando has a 6'10" SG/SF to complement Grant Hill (or whomever). Thinking about who they've had, I don't think he was ever supposed to be a starter (putting him in that list area), with potential to start.

He was never very efficient, but he did score 21 pts/40 in his first year in Orlando. And his defensive win shares were impressive his last year in Sacramento.

Anyway, he's definitely erratic (and my opinion is muddled due to liking him in spurts in Sac-town), but I think as much as a 25-year-old can have potential, his contract wasn't that bad.

But I'm probably wrong.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 7, 2007 6:11 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

maybe not that bad

but right now they're trying to trade it and there aren't many suitors.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 6:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

also

I didn't cherry-pick the 'bad' names. I tried to take them all.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well... hmm...

But if it's a contract based on potential, whether it fails or succeeds doesn't seem to be the point of this list. Or maybe I'm misinterpreting it.

Nocioni has NO potential. He won't get much better (if it all) over the course of his contract. More minutes, less minutes, he is what he is: a good bench player. And he got overpaid for that.

But if someone is given a contract on potential... say, they're young, like Milicic, or have really good per minute stats and someone thinks they just need more time...

Anyway, Turkoglu didn't have really good per minute stats, but if the Magic paid market value and expected him to be a 30-minute starter, just doesn't seem the same as Nocioni to me.

But then, I don't know what they were thinking and am not looking back to find out what they thought. I'll drop this, sorry. I just suck at doing point-counterpoint on blogs.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 7, 2007 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

nah I think that's correct

Turkoglu was pretty established but was still only 24 when he signed that deal, and it was to be a starter.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

he was sick in live 06

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nocioni's contact....

...was for production not potential. Pax knows just exactly what he's doing. He's paying for about 15 ppg and 6 rpg with 39% 3pt shooting in 25 min pg. The contract he handed out was front loaded so it won't affect Deng and Gordons, not to mention Pax really needs Nocioni in at least the first half of the season till he finds out just how often Noah will be available (right now shoulder surgery is still an option) and how much Tyrus has improved. Plus everyone who watched the 2006 playoffs knows that Nocioni's numbers actually do translate when he's given extended playing time. Rasahrd Lewis is getting a max contract! He's scoring 23 ppg 6.5 rpg shooting 39% from 3pt land in 39 min per game and he plays no defense. To me Pax made a good deal. Who would you rather have? If at the trade dead line Pax feels Tyrus has improved enough and Noah's injuries aren't an issue then MAYBE you trade Noc for the best deal you can get but until then losing him for nothing makes the Bulls a worse team no matter who you bring in and for those of you who think you can't improve your game when you get older ask yourself how long it took MJ to learn to post up and perfect that fade away jump shot.

by LnP77632 on Jul 7, 2007 7:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Very well stated.

I agree that Pax is paying for "witnessed production", but I still think that Noc can get appreciable better. Pax has somehow found players that take guaranteed money and still bust their butt in the gym. While others lament the Noah draft and the Noc resigning, I find it to be aberational in today's age that both players are absolutely jazzed about being Bulls and want to do everything in their power to improve. Some keep calling Noc a bench player and maybe that's what he technically is, but the 4 has never been nailed down since he's been here and if a guy comes off the bench and gives you 25 minutes then who cares what you label him.

by EdNealy on Jul 7, 2007 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i...

...concur.

by leeac on Jul 8, 2007 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Comparisons to Lewis' rediculous

new contract are just that. It's a fine point, but even your statements (to me) support a THREE year deal, ala Darko. And is everyone aware that Noc is playing for Argentina this summer?

I agree, they need him this year. But Tyrus and Noah figure to play 30 in two or three years. At least if Noc's foot is still messed up, he'll have time to rest it then.

by marionette on Jul 12, 2007 1:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pistons signed Billups

for 60.5 million over 5 years. That's $12,000,000 a year for a career 14point 5assist pg who is on the decline. Another Darkonian move by Dumars.

by vlad001 on Jul 7, 2007 8:20 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I think he's worth it

Billups runs that whole team, and his numbers are supressed playing in the walk-it-up-look-to-coach-call-a-play style.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Billups is good

Really good. But his numbers aren't suppressed. He was on his 5th team in 5 years before finding his game in Detroit. The Pistons' deliberate style is a perfect match for Chauncey's skill set. On a running team, where his numbers would presumably rise, he might not be "the man" he is in Detroit. Pushing the ball and improvisation are not the best parts of his game.

by jamestkirk on Jul 7, 2007 9:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

isnt the part of the PG supposed ot be to run

a team? stupid name calling aside, i contend that this move will meir detroit in medocrity for the next 5 years with an avg of making the 2nd round of the playoffs...far too many players on the decline vs youthfullness

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah the pistons went

No risk no reward with billups. The pistons will be a decent but ever declining team until the roster is either purged for young talent or replaced piece by piece. This sighning will keep them winning now but never really make them championship contenders. Maybe thats better than instantly rebuilding though. Billups is great for that system; what the contract gains in wins now, it will loose in free agents in the future.

by T MaK on Jul 11, 2007 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Without Billups,

Detroit is about as good the Washington Wizards. Both would lack leadership, clutch scoring and a floor general.

by cubbybear on Jul 7, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

wizards clutch scoring

Last time I checkede Arenas was pretty damn clutch?!!?!?!?

by Sambossanova on Jul 8, 2007 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I forgot that.

He is pretty damn clutch, but Detroit would lack that if Billups left. Not much ability to make their own shot other than him.

by cubbybear on Jul 8, 2007 12:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

bilupps wasnt too clutcth this year

i dont knwo where i would find the stat, but i remember 3 det game winners over the past two years; a hamilton turn around jumper in the 2nd game of the year last season (05-06) vs boston; the chris webber put back against us, and the wallace reedonkulus 3/4 shot

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 10:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Best place I know would be 82games

By their calculations, Billups was indeed less "clutch" in 06-07 than in 05-06 - these stats are from what 82games defines as clutch time, "4th quarter or overtime, less than 5 minutes left,
neither team ahead by more than 5 points":

05-06 06-07
eFG% .545 .480
shot clock 16-20 .667 .575
shot clock 21+ .727 .250
"crunch time" .688 .500

This doesn't get to how many game winners he hit, and the numbers are still pretty good imo, but definitely down from last year. From 05-06 though, you can certainly see where the nickname came from.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Jul 9, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Use it or lose it

Yes, this contract makes it extremely unlikely that Nocioni is traded any time over the next three or four (hopefully contending) years. But if we hadn't spent the money on him, who would it go to? We aren't bringing in any free agents that would be better on this team than Nocioni for a MLE. There are none, not when you look at the Carroll/Kapono deals. And we don't have the cap room to go beyond the MLE.

So instead of giving the $7.5 million annually to Nocioni, would you prefer to bring in the "unrestricted free agent big man off the scrap heap" each year for the next five? If one or two of those five does not work out, it could blow that season.

Pax has money to spend, and he used it as opposed to keeping it in his pocket and letting it go to waste. The money is there for Deng and Gordon and they will get their extensions.

We were not signing any max-contract players anyway, at least until Wallace comes off the books. And, if we can make any blockbuster trades, we have talented young guys (Hinrich, Deng, Gordon) at fairly reasonable contracts, decent players (Tyrus, Thabo, Noah) on rookie deals, and draft picks. There are still assets to trade if Kobe or KG really are available.

Yes, that means Nocioni is a Bull for the next five years, but it is better than having a hole that needs to be filled every year in my opinion.

by nateroth on Jul 7, 2007 9:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And if Garnett exercises his ETO...

...next off-season? What if he's looking to give a discount to his "hometown" team, but not on the $3-$5 million level? What if he wants $10 or $12 and the Bulls now don't have the room?

I'm not a capologist so I might be barking up the wrong tree, but tell me again why Pax HAD TO SPEND the money this year (so it was either Nocioni or Kapono--you CHOOSE!!!) and couldn't have saved some for the great players available next year?

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2007 3:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Would not have had room anyway

After signing Wallace and Hinrich and giving extensions to Deng and Gordon, the Bulls are not signing any unrestricted free agents for $10 or $12 million. They would not have the room to sign other free agents (aside from the salary cap exceptions), which makes it so important that they sign their own. Otherwise they lose guys for nothing and can only bring in mid-level or veterans and rookie free agents to add depth to the roster, and of course it is unlikely that any of those types of players could produce as well as Nocioni.

Now, if we can make some trades to bring in big name players, I'm all for it. Also, if signing Noc ends up preventing us from resigning either Deng or Gordon, then it is a huge mistake. But I don't think that will be the case.

by nateroth on Jul 8, 2007 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I need numbers to believe you.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2007 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'll give it a shot...

but it's hard to say until we know what Deng and Gordon come in at. Let's assume they do something similar to Hinrich and Wallace and take front-loaded deals, $11 million for Gordon and $12 million for Deng to start (with annual decreases from there).

The cap for this past season was $53 million, so let's say that for 08-09 it is at $60 million. Given Deng and Gordon's projected extension numbers, and assuming we did not sign Nocioni, we would have had $55.5 million tied up among eight players: Wallace ($14.5), Hinrich ($10), Gordon ($11), Deng ($12), Tyrus ($3.8), Thabo ($1.9), Noah (around $2) and we'd still have Griffin ($1.7). That doesn't include the salaries of another four guys that we would need. So we would not be able to bring in any free agents for less than about $5 million, which would have been the MLE anyway.

If we simply resign our own guys, we can go over the cap. We will also be able to avoid the luxury tax threshold, which is where a contending team should be and I think where Paxson wants to be.

Assuming all of the above, if we hadn't resigned Nocioni we would have lost him for nothing and his replacement would have had to be a MLE guy. It's doubtful that we could replace Nocioni's production with that type of player. Further, we still would have had no ability to improve the team through big-time free agents until Wallace comes off the books, unless we let Deng or Gordon walk. That will not happen. Trades are still possible, and I hope we can make a blockbuster for Kobe or KG, but absent that it made no sense from a cap perspective to let Nocioni go for nothing.

by nateroth on Jul 8, 2007 4:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you believe

KC in this article he says BG and Deng's extentions will be back loaded.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070707bulls,1,3229956.story?coll= cs-bulls-headlines

by sue369 on Jul 8, 2007 4:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess that would work better

If we could get Deng and Gordon to resign for five years and start them out around $8 or $9 million, that would add even more flexibility. Although we still wouldn't have cap room to take on free agents unless we use the cap exceptions.

by nateroth on Jul 8, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually he may be gone before the year is out

One advantage of front loading Noc's contract is that for trade purposes he is rated at his current year's salary. If the reports are right that's $8.8 Million. That's a long way towards matching Gasol's $13.7 Million. If Memphis struggles badly and Gasol starts pushing for a trade Noc's salary makes it much easier to come up with a trade where the salaries match. You've got Noc & Thomas; Noc, Noah & Duhon;

I'm not saying Noc will go but he does provide that flexibility.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Jul 8, 2007 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

I think your point is true if BYC was a concern. But if it wasn't ,and a team like the Grizzlies doesn't use it's cap room, it could still make a deal regardless of BYC.

Michael Jordan is overrated...except for those 6 titles 4 MVP's DPY and other things like Bryon Russell's ankle...

by pookeyguru on Jul 8, 2007 2:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How tall is

Luis Scola

by eross226 on Jul 7, 2007 11:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

short

6' 7" to 6'9". More corliss williamson than i dont know.

by Sambossanova on Jul 8, 2007 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Definitely...

at least 6ft9. And very good.
I honestly thing that he may bring what the bulls just need. If they somehow can strike a deal with the spurs (Duhon + future 2nd rounder) for Scola's rights, it would be great. Then sign Scola for the MLE (is that possible?).

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Jul 9, 2007 5:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Is he with Tau Ceramica?

Does that mean the same next-to-impossible buyout situation as Splitter has had? Or am I confused (likely)?

I'd like to see Scola here for half the Noc money. Except Pax already spent the Noc money.

I think the MLE ($5.5M) can go towards whatever you want it to. The trick is the buyout of the euro contract. I do know a player can buy himself out, with part of his contract's first year money, for example. Don't know the limits or legality of payment from Bulls to Italian team though.

by marionette on Jul 12, 2007 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Anyone here follow the Bears?

Does anyone else see the similarities between building this team and how the Bears built the defense?

My observations:
Defined system/style
Finding undervalued guys that fit the system
Having these guys play above what they would in other systems

I dunno. Not as much as I thought (or I'm too tired to think more), but I just got that thought earlier. Get a bunch of guys who buy into the system and might not be as highly regarded as others. And the cohesiveness makes the whole greater than the sum of its parts.

Okay, that was dumb.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2007 3:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sounds right to me!

The Nocioni deal does communicate that the Bulls reward you for team play. This is a powerful message.

by chgobr on Jul 8, 2007 7:15 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Todd Mculluch (sp?)

I think the sixers are still paying his contract. Ervin Johnson (the center) and Jim mcilvaine too.

by haze on Jul 8, 2007 7:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Okay

To clarify a few things. The sixers are no longer paying MacCullough. He came off the cap on June 30th of this year. As to McIlvaine and Johnson I don't believe they are being paid by anybody at this time.

Here is the hoopshype salary link.

Michael Jordan is overrated...except for those 6 titles 4 MVP's DPY and other things like Bryon Russell's ankle...

by pookeyguru on Jul 9, 2007 2:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oh active players

i was thinking of a few that i remembered from years ago. Todd M was still on the books until last month??? Gives me chills to think of that.

by haze on Jul 9, 2007 10:33 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my take

I intially cringed a little when I read that we had resigned noch for so long and for so much, but I'm really warming up to the signing.

Paxson has never made a major mistkae; his one big mistake could be contstured as signing tyson to such a large deal; but we're not dealing with that albatross anymore so it's a moot point
Noch, for all intents and purpsoes, was the best fitting FA on the market.
We got a hometown discount
The contract is front loaded; always good but especially because it allows better flexability with jizzle and deng and possibly trading noch
Noch is a proven player; while we don't know what he is going to be able to do after the foot injury; these things tend nto to be a career killer; just a season hurter

All in all, Pax did what he wanted to do, and i trust him for that

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 10:43 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Pope Pax I is infallible!

by hscs on Jul 9, 2007 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think we've hit all the emotions

and everybody has commented. There's got to be something else to talk about. Is it too early to say that CP is a better pg than Kirk Hinrich?

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 9, 2007 12:39 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

That's an interesting question. The national

reaction would be that of course Chris Paul is alot better than Kirk Hinrich. Chris Paul's PER is much higher, and he dominates games in a way that Kirk rarely does. But, I think it's fairly close. Penetrating pg like Paul tend to peak very early in their careers. Isiah Thomas, Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, and Nate Archibald are all examples of players that peaked within their first five NBA seasons. Paul is unlikely to improve every year like Kirk has done. Paul's 2nd year was virtually identical to his first.

When you consider Kirk's numbers when he plays PG, the numbers are alot closer. Kirk's rookie year assist rate actually (When he played PG full time) matches Paul's.

Paul is probably the better player, but if I had a choice. I'd take Kirk because he can do more without the ball on offense, and has more defensive value. Kirk's simply more versatile. You could plug Kirk into any of the championship teams of the last 30 years and he could find a role to play and probably would start. I can't say the same thing for Paul.

by Scotter on Jul 9, 2007 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I cringed too

when I saw the money Noc got. But that's really just me not being completely used to the big dollars being thrown (recklessly) around in today's NBA. It's just hard for me to wrap my mind around 8 mil for a guy who comes off the bench.

While I'm ranting, doesn't it seem that NBA owners/GMs are the dumbest in sports? I bet it would be difficult to find another league whose teams spend so unwisely (I'd love to know the "Bust Rate" in the NBA).

Now that I've got that out of my system, I like the Nocioni signing. Thought it shoulda been a high priority. We NEED that energy he brings. Some say we've already got a lot of 'energy guys.' No we don't. Yes, we have a lot of players who give all-out effort, but I certainly wouldn't classify Deng, Gordon, Wallace, Brown or Sefolosha as "energy-bringers," would you? And I thought real hard about including Heinrich in that group. They play real good basketball and give good effort, yes, but they don't bring emotional energy to the game like Nocioni does or a guy like Tyrus Thomas does.

The energy those types of guys bring really helps teams to quiet crowds and stop runs, and a jump-shooting team like the Bulls Desperately Needs to be able to do those things.

A low-post scorer helps you do the above things too, but the Bulls don't have one of them, which to me made re-signing Nocioni that much more of a priority.

by Starred4Life on Jul 11, 2007 10:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

baseball gm's

look at the money the cubs spent this offseason

by milesgmsu on Jul 12, 2007 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This list should be a lesson

A lot of MLEs, and a lot of cases where GMs were afraid to lose a player (for nothing).

Still only 4 from the list that I'd prefer to Noc:

Battier (everything Bowen's touted as, and legal too)
Harpring (skilled footballer)
Miller (can't reb; replacing Noc means even smaller-ball)
Bell (as above; crosses the Bowen-line)
Camby (guess that makes 5)

Didn't Ratliff win DPOTY once? Brian Cardinal if healthy might've been worth taking (as a bad contract) as part of S'n'T w/Grizz. Isn't he the same player as Noc with less years/dollars now? No one crosses the Fortson-line. Maggette, more so than Miller even, does only one thing. Okay, he can reb too, but if people were disappointed in the defense of a fresh-from-the-boot Noc... Kurt Thomas would be well worth the $ if fool Suns coach played him. Add Bobby Simmons and Ricky Davis. Davis has no excuse. Sorry, but your list inspired a stream of thought.

by marionette on Jul 12, 2007 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs