Bulls (reportedly) re-sign Andres Nocioni

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:11 PM CDT in News Comment 160 comments

This is the same amount that's been reported before, so we've been hashing this out over the past couple days. Is it 'market rate'? Sure, average players like Nocioni get fat contracts every offseason. He's likely better than some guys who will be getting paid more. So this signing is fine in a vaccum but that doesn't make me happy about this in terms of what the Bulls are doing with their roster.

Nocioni gets a 5 year commitment before Luol Deng or Ben Gordon. Considering Pax has repeatedly expressed a desire (echoing the sentiment of the entire NBA-watching world) to acquire a big-time scoring power forward, and Tyrus Thomas is still on the team, they're now committing roughly $7-8m a season on the 3rd best PF and backup for the 10 minutes Luol Deng isn't on the floor.

There is now very little roster flexibility, as Pax has shown an unwillingness (correctly or not) to deal Hinrich, Deng, or Gordon. Can't deal Wallace. The guys on rookie contracts can't get much in return due to cap restraints on trades. Upon putting ink to paper, Nocioni automatically becomes an unwanted contract to whatever team wants to unload one of their better players, who usually look for picks, prospects, or expiring contracts.

(Although maybe that means all these ideas of a Nocioni sign/trade for Gasol,Kobe,KG,etc. were far fetched for that very same reason.)

Pax says "He's one of those guys who have helped change a lot of things around here in terms of how we go about business". Well that's fine. But 'the culture' is changed already, and there's no need to reward that with future earnings. Now what you should be going about in your business is contending for a title. That means upgrading the power forward position by getting guys better than Nocioni.

The only way I see is that upgrade now coming is with a trade of Tyrus Thomas, who for the same reasons he's the better candidate as a backup forward than Noc (cheaper, better) also makes him more valuable to other teams in a trade. However it's hard to see a package of Thomas/Noah (or Sefolosha or Gordon for that matter) and the expiring deals of Duhon and Khryapa getting enough salary together to make a major upgrade.

But what I'm really afraid of is an upgrade not happening, and Nocioni either becoming the starter or the 6th man. Meaning that both Pax has failed to find a frontcourt complement to Ben Wallace and Skiles will have an excuse to limit Tyrus Thomas' minutes. And like many other teams in the league, the Bulls will have their very own mid-level contract they can't move because they overpaid for a role player for 5 years.

Retaining a good player like Noc to a 'reasonable' contract isn't by itself reason to fret, I just don't see now after this signing where the team can get appreciably better before next season. And to me that's a failure of a summer.

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The Noc signing isn't about

getting better. It's about not getting any worse. For all his flaws, Noc is still a better player than Joe Smith, Mikki Moore, P.J. Brown, and Chris Mihm. He's the best free agent the Bulls could have aquired this summer. If I thought Tyrus was merely a cheap backup PF like you do, then your position is understandable. But, I believe he's going to start at least 2/3 of the season. Tyrus is where this team improves this summer. Resigning Noc is just about maintaining the status quo.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd say

Noc at 2/3 minutes at the 4, and Tyrus 1/3 minutes is worse than Tyrus getting half and Joe Smith getting the other half. Plus you save some scratch and you're not signing Joe Smith (or whoever) to a 5 year contract.

I think Tyrus is a cheap backup PF if this team was going to win the East. I like him a lot but don't see him being the starter with Wallace and getting 30+ minutes a night.

I don't recall a time during the Detroit series where I said to myself 'if only a healthy Nocioni was out there we'd be right with these guys'. They need someone that gets double-teamed in the post. I can't see it for Tyrus this season and I know it ain't happening with Noc.

I think it's too hard roster-wise to pay for the status quo and pay to get better now.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc is getting to play 2/3 of the min

at PF. He's never even played 1/2 the min at PF. He's going to average 24-27 min/g. That's at most 20 min at the PF slot.

As for the double teaming. I've been wathcing tapes I have from the season. I'm starting to think Deng has more potential than I thought he had. Noc is a key piece to being able to put Deng in the post as a SF.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

watching Deng get pushed around by tayshaun prince

popped my idea balloon of getting Deng to play more in the post.

But he's (obviously) still young.

I get what you're saying and your optimism makes me less depressed about this, but I think the same reasoning could've applied by getting some other veteran big man for 1-2 seasons while letting Deng and Tyrus develop their post games. 5 years for Noc. 5!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

when flops turn into technical fouls

this is going to look worse.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade

Gordon for a power forward because Ben is going to cost to much to resign him and hes to small. I think we can get a good 4 to our team and Contend.

by eross226 on Jul 6, 2007 2:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

how is Gordon too small

and Nocioni isn't?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see Nocioni's return limiting TT's minutes

because the team no longer has PJ Brown.

So Tyrus will start and Nocioni will come in to spell him for 20 minutes a game.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 2:23 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

20 minutes for 7-8

is a lot of money for a limited amount of minutes

by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It'd make things interesting

am I talking about both sides of my mouth when I say how much I like Tyrus Thomas but also don't like the idea of him being the starter?

Sorry if I do, but it's how I think about that position. His similarities to Wallace plus his age can't shake my feeling that he's perfect as the first big off the bench.

And that's in a perfect world. Until proven otherwise I can't see a situation where Skiles plays Tyrus more minutes than Noc, let alone starts over him.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think about TT

the same way. As you mentioned in your post, the Noc signing means that they're not going to find that name post player before the season. You're right. But I think that's always been the case - - where was it going to come from? To me, TT's improvement (and he'd better be in the frickn' gym every day) is where the Bulls get better. More minutes become available without Brown, but I'd actually like to see TT start as I think Noc stablizes the 2nd unit a little bit better and he could enter for either Deng or Thomas.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He'll start over Noc

because Tyrus gives us tremendous 'playing' size at the 4. This kid has a chance to lead the league in blocks, and at 6'9" that's impressive ability. Pax has stated all offseason this team's need for size, and Tyrus obviously gives us much more of that than Noc. Sure, Nocioni is a better scorer than TT right now, but the Bulls are accustomed to getting very little scoring from the 4 anyhow. I believe Tyrus will be a better scorer for us this year at the 4 than PJ was last year--which I realize is not saying a lot--but it's an upgrade nontheless.

I can't, however say he'll play as good defesne as PJ did, and that will hurt. I'm hoping we re-sign PJ if he doesn't retire; I think we badly need his services cuz there's a good chance TT will find himself in foul trouble with increased minutes.

Besides, Nocioni is the Consumate bench player: has the ability to score in bunches, brings a lot of energy, is unselfish and plays pretty good defense. That energy is needed off the bench midway through the 2nd quarter.

by Starred4Life on Jul 12, 2007 12:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ahhh

that post made me nauseas. your probably right. bulls do seem to be regressing. I dont agree with pax. Why the hell didnt he wait or at least extend deng and maybe gordon first.

by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 2:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What? Regressing?

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Worst Decision of the Pax Era

Unless the last year or two are Team or Mutual Options. I don't see how Noce fits in. Deng eventually will play 40mpg, as will Gordon and Hinrich. Having a revolving door at the big two spots is disruptive, and hampers both Noah's and Tyrus' growth. Not happy today, and feeling like Paxson got pushed around by Wallace, who may have had little interest, and just wanted Noce to get overpaid, which I consider this to be. 7mil/year is absurd for a guy who should only get 20mpg. And who is a tweener in the worst way, if he can't play SF.

Contract would be tradeable if it weren't until he is 32. Not to mention five years, longer than the guys we're trading for. I think this locks us into the status quo, and kills any future cap flexibility we might have had with declining hinrich and wallace deals. The jury's still out on this one, but for right now Paxson is guilty of valuing intangibles over tangible basketball skills, of which Noce has few.

Noah and Tyrus and Wallace, OH MY!

by cubbybear on Jul 6, 2007 2:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The report mentioned

a 6th year team option. I think the 5 years are guaranteed.

by kingj41 on Jul 6, 2007 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Saw that after I typed

That's making sure that we have the rights to a 33yo tweener. Crazy Paxson, Crazy.

by cubbybear on Jul 6, 2007 2:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that last sentence is really important

I always joke around with the 'grit' stuff that Pax and Skiles reference because I didn't really believe THEY took it as seriously as they make it seem. But this signing and drafting Noah make me wonder.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

few skills?

Noc is a good rebounder, period, not just for his size. He averaged 15ppg in limited minutes last year. He's a solid to very good 3pt shooter. He HAS to be one of the league leaders in charges taken (charges/flops are easy to criticize/laugh at now, but don't forget how many Noc charges/flops caused you to pump your first last year), and for his position (which I believe to be a 3), he defends the rim very well. On top of all that, Noc is unique in the fact that he brings so much energy to whatever group is on the floor, either getting the UC crowd worked up to a lather or quieting the opposing crowd as we start a run of our own.

I think we just need to stop associating 8mil and the term "bench player" and its conventional meanings. Nocioni is not your typical bench player, so conventional thought about 'bench players' doesn't apply to this dude. This guy brings so much in so many different areas, he's definitely worth the investment. I LOVE the character, determination and work ethic this team possesses. Not only does it make watching the Bulls extremely fun to watch and easy to root for, but it wins games.

In my opinion, it is the Bulls' improvement in the areas of character, determination and work ethic that are as responsible as anything else for the Bulls turnaround. Noc helps to preserve and reinforce this during practice, in the locker room and most importantly on the floor. Therefore, in my opinon he is to be highly valued.

Don't forget Nocioni was heavily sought after by many teams when he signed with the Bulls.

He's also the proud owner of an Olympic Gold Medal he won while starting for the Argentine team.

Dude's got skills bro.

by Starred4Life on Jul 12, 2007 12:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The worst thing is

The Bulls still need a starting PF.
It seems no other teams really showed interest. Did Pax over-extend himself? I know he said he'd match any offer, but if other teams were offering I'm sure he would've considered a sign & trade deal.
Maybe Pax made his move too soon and in the end we have a long term contract that no team will really want to trade for considering no one else made such an offer to Nocioni. He's no longer a trade asset.

by kingj41 on Jul 6, 2007 2:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

good point

Although whenever someone asks why a GM 'rushes', it's likely due to information we're not aware of. Maybe the Grizzlies were actually quite close.

But Noc's restricted status means that even if he accepted an offer with the Grizzle today the Bulls still had 7 days to figure something out.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Pax acted quick

cuz he wanted Noc on the team, period.

I think by now it's fair to say Pax knows 'the art of the deal,' so if was even Slightly interested in trading Noc, he would've waited just as you guys have suggested to gauge other teams' interest.

by Starred4Life on Jul 12, 2007 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I will say that it is odd that Paxson departed

from standing Reinsdorf protocol by setting the market himself. I wonder what accounts for that urgency. A cynic might say it is an artifact of some personal allegiance. That seems to be the majority opinion here. You could also argue that Paxson is sending a message to the rest of the League that he takes care of his players. Conversely, the urgency could be the product of some long term plan that Paxson has regarding trades of certain other perimeter players. I personally subscribe to the latter.

However, as is obvious, I like Nocioni and I won't bemoan the signing. I just hope that Paxson did his due diligence on Nocioni's foot. That is a nagging injury.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

hmm...

true, maybe Pax has made up his mind about dealing Gordon and knows he'll need outside shooting from somewhere else in his absence.

I don't get why the organization can't get behind Gordon like they laud Nocioni, even though they're both pretty bad defenders in their own special ways.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

+/- says Gordon's scoring makes up for it

and Nocioni's scoring doesn't.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This is based solely on circumstantial

evidence and conjecture, but there definitely seemed to be some tension between Gordon and the franchise at the end of this season.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe it has more to do with

BG's reported "I am a starter" mentality vs. Noc's "The team is better if I come off the bench" approach than with defensive ability.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Jul 6, 2007 7:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

by sue369 on Jul 6, 2007 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that goes a long way with this org

as we already know

by Starred4Life on Jul 12, 2007 1:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon is the one

who needs to go!

He just doesn't fit this team. Let's just say it: Gordon CAN'T play defense. His body just won't let him, that's all.

He's another superb bench player but his ego is already starting to quiver a bit about that too. Gordon still takes wild, low-percentage shots.

His stroke, however, is as pure as they come as we all know already. It'd be tough to give up his scoring on a team devoid of scorers, but as long as Thabo can provide us with 15ppg in his stead the impact will be lessened due to the improved scoring we should get from TT at the 4.

Ultimately, BG's lack of size will punch his ticket in Chicago as long as there is a VERY talented big guard in Sefolosha on the bench. BG served us well during his time here, providing clutch and consistent scoring when we had none. He's got my respect.

by Starred4Life on Jul 12, 2007 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

taking a breather

i don't think there's any argument that Paxson overpaid for Nocioni and, even if there is, you won't find it here.
however, i do see some slivers of a silver lining here:
a) Pax has been pretty spot on w/ his moves so I'm thinking he has an idea of what he's doing.
b) As I'm sure many of you have noticed, Grizzlies' option "B" is Verajao. If they manage to sign him (and it looks promising), we've maintained the status quo and dealt a heavy blow to our chief conference rival. There is a morsel of relevance in this, if it plays out.
c) Paxson has to be intent on bringing back both Deng and Lil' Ben, right? I mean, if he's willing to spend 38 mill on Noce w/o a second thought, then he has to be hellbent on resigning Deng and Ben this summer. The Noce move was all about maintaining the status quo, well, not securing Ben and/or Deng would be inconsistent with that now stated team goal (well, it was sort of stated).
d) Noce isn't all bad. I mean, he was a beast in last year's playoffs. Granted, that was last year's playoffs, but he performed very well. If he gets reasonably close to those numbers for even a month next year, he will be a tradeable assets ... there's too many stupid/desperate GM's out there for him not to be.
e) 27-32 should still be productive years for Noce. If he was a center or a shooting guard (of similar 'worth'), then there could definitely be an issue with his productiveness. However, his game is such that any potential decline in atheleticism should not hinder his ability to contribute to the team. Of course, if Plantar Fasciitis-like issues continue to dog him, then this last point goes out the window.

I guess this is a long way of saying the jury is still out for me on this move. If it doesn't keep us from resigning Deng and Ben and if Tyrus still sees relatively significant time, then I'm ok with this move. Obviously, any of the above could happen, but I'm willing to reserve judgement for the moment and have faith in Paxson's track record.

by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 2:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

27-32 years old

Paxson paid for the five years of Noc's prime. I try to appreciate Noc objectively. I have not great love for his intangibles, etc. In fact those qualities use turn me off, see my comments on Noah. I just don't see what alternative Paxson had.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

A rebuttial

B) Varaejo is Mike Brown's Duhon. Losing him might actually make them better.
C) Now we become the Suns of the East, just enough talent to reach the confernce fianls, but we cant add the missing pieces cause we would be in Luxary Tax land.
D) in the 2006 playoffs we was being "guarded" by Antoine Walker most of the time and any NBA player could do that against 'Toine.
E) Planter Fascitis is a nagging injury that only subsides with rest. Once he starts playing again it could come back

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Eric Snow was Mike Brown's Duhon

http://www.82games.com/0607/0607CLE.HTM

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Varejo

still got too much time. Atleast Brown came to his senses with Snow during the playoffs.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What?

"Planter Fascitis is a nagging injury that only subsides with rest."

rest.. hmmm? Like a whole Summer off??

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 6, 2007 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The injury can come back

Albert Pujols has had it his whole career.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And Tim Duncan had it 2 seasons ago

but didn't seem to have any problems this past one. I suppose we'll all find out shortly whether Noc is in for chronic problems.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Jul 6, 2007 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

His career isn't over..

and name is consistently mentioned with NL MVP, he is all star every year and led his team to a championship last year. If he has the injury still it doesn't seem to be effecting his production on the field.

"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ

by Rankdog on Jul 6, 2007 7:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

2 different sports

Pujols is payed to hit a ball out of the park. If he gets on base he can jog. In basketball Noc is going to have to consistantly run the court. If this turns into a consistent injury its going to hamper his performance because he wont be at a speed level to compete.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 9:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thats possible

and I am no doctor. I am just correcting the fact you made it sound like Pujols career is over when he is in fact one of the best players in MLB playing at the peak of career.

"If you're not going to compete, then I'll dominate you." MJ

by Rankdog on Jul 9, 2007 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

a re, er, rebuttal

Veraejo would at the very least diminish the Cavs size up front. But, unlike Z (broken down body) or Gooden (broken down desire), Veraejo could actually be counted on to provide effort.

We still have room to develop our significant players where many of the Suns key players have hit their ceiling

Noce also put up great numbers the month before the playoffs, suggesting that it wasn't just walker's "defense" that contributed to his 20-10 performance (which is good in the playoffs no matter who guards you).

I've had Fascitis and, yes, it can return. That's why I said all bets are off if his body breaks down. Of course, in the majority of cases, the ailment subsides permanently.

by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 4:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so you're suggesting it was magic playoff juice?

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

hey turd :)

he said the 'juice' was in effect before the playoffs, so no playoff juice.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I guess

it's not like magic juice of any sort comes with instructions. Gosh I hate this move. Paying too much for mediocre players is the calling card of so many bad GMs. I hate that Paxson put himself in that position without a real offer from any other teams.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if you want him to put up 'great numbers'

that means you want him to play a lot. Does everybody really want that? I was hoping for somebody better when Pax was talking about getting 'a guy who can score in the post blah blah blah'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

listen

I'm all for a PF/C that we dump the ball to and count on for a bunch for a bunch of easy buckets. I'd have no problem with that. I'd certainly take one over Nocioni. And if holding off on signing him would result in acquiring this PF/C, then sign me up.
Of course, the problem is, who is the PF/C that can Defend and Shoot? I see a very short list of candidates all of which either:
a) have a monstrosous contract that would both inhibit our ability to resign players and require us to trade away 3-4 key players just to match contracts.
b) are young and on small contracts, meaning that teams would be idiotic to trade them.
What would not signing Noce do to achieve that end? We ARE going to be over the cap next year, that's not even in question. Hell, we're gonna be over the cap for 3-5 years, by which time the window for a win-now approach would have passed.
If you are going to be over the cap for the foreseeable future and you know you are going to resign Deng and Gordon regardless, how much damage are we really doing? The only valid argument I see is that this could cut into Tyrus's playing time. I understand that. However, I am not willing to assume it simply becuase his minutes were limited as a rookie or because Duhon plays too many minutes.
Everybody here can agree that Noce has some value, right? Certainly not 38 Million dollars worth, but he has some. Are we going to get a player like him in Free Agency over the next three years? So, maybe it's helpful to think of it as a the opportunity to add a free-agent-like signing without cap room.
I agree, we've overpaid. But what are our options? It's kind of like Stephen A ripping us for not drafting a low-post scorer when there were not any true options available.

by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Suns of the East?

The Suns of the East go to the Finals for the next 3 or 4 years, mark it down. We are going to own the Eastern Conference. Who knows if we will beat the West, but going to the finals isn't a bad thing. Nocioni is a useful player, and with PJ gone, Tyrus is going to get us a lot of cheap buckets.

by PGHcager on Jul 6, 2007 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Overpaid?

Are you saying he did or did not overpay? I think it looks like a fair contract. It allows the Bulls to resign all of their own free agents while staying under the luxury tax. It is slightly above what the mid-level will be throughout the contract, which is where Nocioni should be. It is an average salary for a contributing vet.

We weren't going to get the scoring PF this offseason unless it is through a huge trade. Would we get one for '09, '10, '11? Hard to say, but it's better to take what we know than rely on speculation about what will happen after '08. Pax likes certainty.

No question that the rebounding will be there with Wallace, Tyrus, Noah, Deng and Nocioni. The shot blocking and interior defense should be there with that group. Interior scoring is not where this team gets its points.

by nateroth on Jul 6, 2007 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know we can't put the contract aside,

but there seems to be a lot of comments about Noc's ability, with many references to him being merely average. I ask - - is that the case? While I know he played pro ball in Spain prior to coming here, he's only been in the league 3 years and I tend to think that he's showed a lot of improvement. One has got to try to think about him ex-foot injury and remember that even with it, he averaged 14 pts and 6 bds last year in 26 min. He shot 47% and was 85% from the line. He had an enormous Heat series in '05 and has showed the potential to have truly breakout games. I looked at what he did last year, in the first half of December, prior to the injury coming on and he scored: 31, 24, 20, 14, 17, 17, 19, 20, 12 and 24. It's interesting to me that many have just place a ceiling on him already at the age of 27. I don't see it, especially considering that, when uninjured, he busts his ass like Deng, Gordon and Hinrich do. I'll tell you, I would also absolutely hate to play against this guy.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 2:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I just think they like Noch.

I think this is a good thing. You guys are freaks.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 3:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

and....

the award for the least-thought provoking comment of the entire thread goes to... surprise surprise.. Joe Joe

by fundamentallysound on Jul 6, 2007 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

you think too much

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm a Optimist So...

I believe we will be better than last year. The reason is growth, everybody seems to be discounting the growth of all our players.

The only true vet that we have is Big Ben. Everyone else, thats play any significant time, is still 5 years and under. U tryin to tell me that they will all stay at the same level they r now. I hope not. Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng alone with the same type of improvement that they've made every other summer add about 10 points combined easy.

Everybody's wondering about us gettin a scoring big man. Well, tell me who realistically would that be? There are definitely no answers in FA, and since we only have MLE and Vet's exception that wasn't gonna work, and if we trade for someone, of any substance, that means we would have to give up someone good. Not just Noc and some filler.

Before everyone chalks this up as regressing, let's see if TT worked on makin his J consistent and maybe developing a nice baby hook. Let's see if Noah and get some points off put backs and easy set ups. Let's see Noc spread squads out bombing from 3.
I just got good vibes for what's gonna happen this season.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 6, 2007 3:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm on your team Ceasaleo

by chgobr on Jul 6, 2007 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and there's no power forward

out on the market that can get you a double team. There is nothing to trade without gutting. Thats just the way it is so I think this was a decent move by Paxson. I think a healthy Nocioni is a powerful weapon to have. The improvement will have to rest on Noah, Tyrus developing some post game. I think they can.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 3:10 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Don't forget

Nocioni shot a totally reasonable .383 from three point territory last season, .391 the year before.

Maybe Pax likes a three headed PF monster of PJ, Noce and TT.

Maybe we'll have to wait until Feb. for the magical post scoring PF to appear.

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 3:17 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

This has

given me a headache. I like Noch but I don't want him taking playing time away from TT. If I had the choice of watching either of those two play it's not even close...TT wins.

by sue369 on Jul 6, 2007 3:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I like watching TT

play too, but both of them help us win.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

popular +/- ratings disagree

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's one (flawed) measure.

Popular PER ratings say that Nocioni is a more efficient, productive player than Tyrus. In fact, Nocioni had the fourth highest PER on the team behind the Core.

Point being that there is also statistical evidence that Noce is valuable.

I like Tyrus. I hope he starts next year.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 4:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc's more efficient and productive on offense

sure they're both flawed, but I think +/- is more telling as a 'what helps the team' stat amongst teammates.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I doubt a big trade would happen, but...

wouldn't this signing be necessary if one was to happen. If the reports are correct, and the Wolves' wanted the #3, #11 and Marvin Williams from the Hawks, or Biedrins, Ellis, Harrington and Brandan Wright from the Warriors, it sounds like they are pretty much looking for a starting line-up in exchange for Garnett. Pax said the Grizzlies were looking for the same at the trading deadline (on the Score, he said, "It was not only Deng, but a whole lot more"). Nocioni makes the 8th legit rotation player on the Bulls' roster (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Wallace, Tyrus, Thabo, Noah). I don't see how the Bulls could let Noc walk (unfortunately, 5 years was probably necessary to make this happen), then pull off a 3 for 1 trade, and then still have enough pieces to go along with the "star" to be better than they were last year.

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 3:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely

The only issue is salaries in making a trade work, but you can't lose Nocioni for nothing and then trade two of Gordon, Hinrich, Deng, and Tyrus, plus Noah, for Garnett or Kobe. Too little left.

by nateroth on Jul 6, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dunno

it's an issue that now the Bulls have no contracts to deal with two rookie-contract guys for those 'star' players.

But if they can't deal him now then it also likely means a sign/trade with him wasn't going to do it either. It sounds like the Grizzlies were willing to do a 5-year contract too, so why would Noc agree to a sign/trade for fewer guaranteed years.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe Pax

is anticipating a panic at the trade deadline for the Lakers and/or Wolves. Noce can be traded at that point and certainly would help in a salary match. Of course, there's the question of whether a team wants to commit to 5-years of his 'Argentinian-flair'.

by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 6:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so does this mean

that Noah won't be getting any minutes at the PF slot? He can play both the PF and C slots, but it seems that with the minutes being divied up between TT, Noce, and whomever we sign with the MLE and/or VE, that Noah will only being seeing the floor when Big Ben's back is sore or he just needs a breather.

I also don't get why Pax set the market price himself. If the Grizzlies were the only team bidding with us for Noce's services, then I think it would have been wiser to let them overpay him or call their bluff and wait things out. They had the option to match any offer, why over a 5 year deal to someone who isn't in the plans to be a starter down the line? Why not offer Noce something like 14 or 15 mil for 2 years? I just don't see this being the right decision for the continued improvement of the team. Noce has a role and he can fill it up occasionally, but I think that is more a referendum on the quality of the team's offense, rather than on his worth or talent. The Bulls have struggled to score a lot in the past, and Noce has been able to fill that void some nights, but I just don't think he's a long term solution.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 6, 2007 3:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

offer*

by fundamentallysound on Jul 6, 2007 3:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

With Noah, Noce, and Tyrus, do the Bulls really

need to sign another PF with the MLE?

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

can't hurt

if it's a 1-year contract, of course :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can hurt if Skiles insists

on playing his veteran toys.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

good point

by fundamentallysound on Jul 6, 2007 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's five years because Memphis offered five years

By offering Noc a contract right away, Pax likely saved a few million in a bidding war.

As for playing time at PF. Noc doesn't change much. If we gave him up then Paxson would have to spend the MLE on Joe Smith. Noc plays 10 min/g at SF, and 10-15 min at PF. Tyrus plays 20-25 min at PF. Noah could get the 13 min behind Wallace and another 10 at PF. Of course Paxson giving Skiles a veteran big man like Joe Smith reduces Noah and Tyrus down to 10 min/g instead of 20.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Sure he saved some money

but Pax could've saved even more money by letting him go outright.

Or by suckering Memphis into a sign/trade like he did with Jamal Crawford. Couldn't they agree to take back Swift (2yrs/$12m), Stoudamire(2yrs/$9m), or Cardinal (3yrs/$19m)? They could take one of those guys and other assets (like picks or cheap players) for their trouble.

(Ok, maybe Cardinal is a stretch)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Crawford trade

Dumping Jerome Williams' contract was the gain from the Crawford trade. He was going to be on the books for like 4 more years, and the Bulls got expiring deals in exchange (Mutombo, Harrington, and I think one more). Is there any benefit in taking one of those bad contracts from the Grizzlies?

Unless, of course, they agreed to take Noc and Wallace for expiring contracts....

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point was not the exact transaction

they used a player they didn't really want (Crawford) and his status as a restricted free agent to help the team in other ways than pure talent.

In this case they could get those bad contracts (that are bad but still more tradeable than Nocioni's new deal) from the Grizzlies. And pick up a pick or prospect to fill out the roster, not to mention a trade exception. Sure it'd be nicer if they had a big expiring deal, but I think this works too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, that makes sense

A first round pick could've been a good idea. It works in my fantasy baseball league, some of the best teams always seem to have some of the worst team's first round pick in the following year. It would be nice to see that for a 3rd year in a row.

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the offer

The Grizzlies didn't give an offer sheet to Nocioni because their offer wasn't that much more than the Bulls, and they didn't want to tie up their money waiting for a week for the Bulls to match. If the Bulls started with a low offer, they may very well given him the offer sheet, and the Bulls would've had to pay even a little more in order to keep him. In the long run, the competitive offered saved them money. (Unless, of course, you take the stance that they shouldn't match).

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fact is....Noce is an adult!

Do you really want to rely exclusively on TT or Noah and have no backup for Deng? Perhaps Khyrapa who can't play in the system? Griffin?

They paid $8 million for P.J. last year.

I believe they can add Smith or the like without affecting the cap if they get him for the exception.

by hhi on Jul 6, 2007 3:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Griffin or Sefo

or is Thabo not an adult either?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

The Bulls didn't sign Peej to that contract, and he was only here for a year.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Exactly

We're spending all this time talking about the PF spot and without Nocioni we're one bum wrist (a la Deng in 2006) away from god knows what at SF. Keeping him is big time insurance and then some.

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 3:53 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

any player can be injured

That's not a valid point.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well sure

but I'm making the point that his primary use will not really be at the PF spot this year. Let's say not if Deng gets injured then, let's say as a legitimate backup at the 3 (in contrast to the non-legitimate other backups we'd have to deal with to relieve Deng this year)

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

let's say Nocioni gets hurt again

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course it is a valid point.

Dismissing his comment by stating that "any player can be injured" makes no sense.

It's precisely BECAUSE "any player can be injured" that you need a viable back-up. That's good planning.

I am not suggesting that Noce's value as back-up SF did not did not merit this deal. However, it is a valid consideration.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's not

Good planning would have been identifying bench talent to replace Nocioni's production at a reduced cost.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 4:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you mean

that OTHER guy on the market that averages 14 points, 6 rebounds, hits 39% of his threes and shoots 85% from the line?

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or since we're talking about a reduced role

getting a guy who doesn't produce as much but is CHEAPER AND NOT PAID FOR 5 MORE SEASONS.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if we sign that player

then we have that much less to spend on the next low post hope.
Signing Noce takes nothing from our available MLE.

by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 6:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My point is that a player's viability as a back-up

at a key position is, in fact, a valid consideration when determing that player's value.

I wasn't making any specific arguments about Nocioni, I just thought it was a little ludicrous to say it wasn't a valid point because "any player can be injured." Yeah, any player can be injured. And a good GM will anticipate injuries and attempt to guard against them by having a viable back-up available. One of the benefits of depth is the ability to weather injuries.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

how is that position more 'key' than the others?

sure you'd like $8m backups at every position just in case, but that doesn't make it sensible.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if Deng's gone the team's screwed anyway.

nobody can really survive without their best (or close to best) player.

And it's not 'god knows what'. Sefolosha can hold down the position. They could de-embalm Griffin. They could bring back Ronald Dupree!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

mmmmm.

de-embalm. Can we do that with Ron Mercer while we're at it?

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Boy do you like Deng

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They drafted two 7' guys and a shooting guard

And they're looking at Smith, Mihm and Moore.

Can't lose a SF without a replacement--no?

Thabo is only a second-year guy like TT but does have more experience. But if Duhon goes, he'll play a lot at guard.

by hhi on Jul 6, 2007 4:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

like BW3 on a tuesday

in the NBA, wings are plentiful and cheap.

(that was a bad joke even for me)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

but why have shitty wings

when hooters is down the street

by milesgmsu on Jul 9, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ya know....that is a lot of money for that talent

Must be the intangible thing.

by hhi on Jul 6, 2007 4:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Any possibility...

That Paxson is projecting Noc as the starting SF, and moving Deng for a top line PF?

If not, we better hope that Noc is the best back-up small forward in the league for the money the Bulls just paid.

by ScottSkilles Hair on Jul 6, 2007 5:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Maybe not Deng

But TT or Noah. Or Noce.

by hhi on Jul 6, 2007 5:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

MLE

I hope they dont use the on some perimeter oriented Pf. If they lose pj, they need a big body to guard the post. Who can guard post players on the current roster besides wallace?

by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 5:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Noah

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Minutes

Give Noah Tyrus's minutes from last year and give Tyrus PJ's minutes.

by Jesse07 on Jul 7, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis Had Nothing

This was the only move Paxson could make because the worse team in the league went after Noc. There is only one asset we want on that team and the price was too high for Pax already. I think many teams in the league would consider Noc an upgrade at the SF and would trade for him for what amounts to a moderate contract for a 30 mpg productive player in his prime years! Although, many think Noc signing will hamper the development of our TT and Noah, those two will probably only stay on the floor a combined 10 mpg because of foul trouble. Noc signing was the best option.

by Goshdengit on Jul 6, 2007 5:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd give more credit to TT and Noah

I agree signing Noc was the best option. However, Thomas and Noah won't be in foul trouble every game. 10 minutes combined is not very much and means that both had really bad games, i.e. committing a foul once every minute they play.
IMO, TT, if he improves this summer, will get around 20-25 mpg and Noah will get around 10-15 mpg.

In Pax We Trust! DAAA BULLS!

by RingItUp26 on Jul 6, 2007 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe he can play the 2

The bulls didnt overpay for noce. The real question is should they have resigned him and what role does he fit on the team. I like Noce's game but unless he can play the two how can he get minutes? Maybe thats what we all are missing Pax intends to trade Hinrich or Gordon freeing Noce up to play the 2, 3 or 4.

W/o hinrich
PG-Sefolosha, Gordon, Curry
SG-Gordon, Noce??, Sefolosha
SF-Deng, Noce, TY
PF-Whoever they get in trade, Noce
C-Wallace, Noah

6th man-Ty SG, SF, PF

w/o gordon

PG-Kirk, Sefolosha, Curry
SG-Noce??, Deng, Sefolosha
SF-Deng, TY
PF-Whoever they get in trade
C-Wallace, Noah

6th man-Ty SG, SF, PF

Only way signing makes sense

by Blacknight23 on Jul 6, 2007 5:40 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Noc can barely play the 3, let alone the 2.

His strength is play as an undersized 4. It's where his biggest strengths shooting and help defense are the mos effective.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 5:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

undersized is the problem

he's the worst 4 for the other players on the floor with him. Bulls fans knew this day was coming Deng, Gordon, Noce all eligible for extentions same time. Two years ago everyone was saying Deng maybe they will still trade him??

by Blacknight23 on Jul 6, 2007 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Remember every time

you hear an announcer say Nocioni is the guy you hate to have to face but love to have on your team?

Nocioni is fuckin solid when healthy, and I'm sorry everyone has seemed to forget that so soon. And he is still relatively young. The guy is awesome at getting into others heads.

I am hella giddy at the idea of Tyrus and Noc and Joakim screaming everytime something goes right. This team is going to be so fun to watch.

They can still use Brown perhaps in a sign and trade and a couple other assets.

Paxson is no dummy, he has a plan...wait for it. Until then, enjoy the idea that Noc isn't that guy you hate to have to face.

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

by Option27 on Jul 6, 2007 5:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

he brings his luch box

on to the court for crying out loud! How can you not love him?

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think teams hate to face Tim Duncan more

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think if Duncan was on the market

The Bulls would have done everything to get him.

Let's just be happy that "that dude who everyone hates facing" is still with us.

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

by Option27 on Jul 6, 2007 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

heh

That's because everyone's nuts have been on his face.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 6:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd rather the players were hated

for being really good than for flopping around the court.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just try to forget the image

of the injured Noc, and remeber one that was a constant double double threat. Then you might remember that Nocioni was pretty damn good before his injury.

And no, not an all star . . . but pretty damn good.

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

by Option27 on Jul 6, 2007 6:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

not a fact

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Before the injury,

Noce & Deng were complementing eachother very nicely. Noce, Deng, & Tyrus all bring differnt things to the table and complement eachother for a nice rotation at the forward position.

Plus, I am under the belief that Deng & Tryus are spending there summer on the block. Especially, after what Prince did to Deng in the playoffs.

by Jesse07 on Jul 7, 2007 9:58 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe Duncan is the reason

that Noc was re-signed. You know with Parker marrying Eva Longeria, maybe the Big Fundamential thinks the Spurs are too Hollywood and flashy now and come next summer he will love the Bulls grit and winners and will demand the Spurs agree to a sign and trade for Noah, picks, and a trade excemption. Of course everything I said is tongue in cheek.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 7:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matt, one

of these days you're going to let us all know who the mystic post player is that Paxson is so remiss in getting for us by saving the Nocioni money.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 9:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Blame Skiles

by eross226 on Jul 6, 2007 6:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I love when he shrugs his shoulders.

Whayyyy mee?? Come on!

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 6:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I ask again

just out of curiosity what player on the market this year (no Kobe doesn't count) could be had for 7 mil per year that puts up 14/6 85%-FT 39%-3pt?

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 6:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

You people have to realize

Artis Gilmore is not walking through that door. There are no options at PF in the free agent market that make the Bulls better. Noc was even rated a top 10 free agent. There are no viable trades floating around right now, either. There are way too many people on here acting like little girls right now crying about a contract that keeps a decent player playing on the Bulls through his prime years. That contract is extremely tradeable assuming he doesn't get reinjured (an older Duncan came back from it this year). Could we please stop with the tears? Please?

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 7:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Whoa!

Easy there. Good point though.

by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's all good and dandy

But when and at what position will Noce play? I think Skiles will play him too much and TT too little. The change that will fix this problem is BW getting older and eventually retiring.

by cubbybear on Jul 6, 2007 8:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Absolutely!

When we talk about minutes at the 2 big positions, we figure in 35 minutes for BW. I hope that gets cut this year! Ben is a nice player, but let's forget the money we're paying him, that was spent when he signed the contract. He's a role player...enforcer and rebounder. That's a nice guy to have, but we don't owe him 35+ minutes of court time every night. I'm excited to watch Tyrus and Noah develop this year, I hope I get a chance to regularly watch it every game!

How about:
Wallace 30 minutes
Tyrus 25 minutes
Noah 15 minutes
Noc 10 minutes at PF
Mikki Joe Mihm whatever is left...let's see 96-30-25-15-10=16 minutes

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 9:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Guys you

really have to look at this from a different view. thirty eight is alot but what about paying ben wallace about 15 million a year for one good series against miami. I really dont think ben wallace fits in with the bulls and i believe every time we will play detroit in the future we will get the short end of the series. noc is noc. he is part of what made the bulls the bulls in the last three years. without him, kirk, and deng, we would still be the team that everyone was threatened to be sent to if they did not play to their potential. Noc is going to be well worth it and i would rather get rid of wallace then noc.
And remember we payed two guys in the last three years way more than that to sit home and watch the bulls play(thomas, robbinson). so lets sit back hope for scola and get ready for the finals next year

by glycen on Jul 6, 2007 7:46 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What do you think the spurs

would ask for Scola

by eross226 on Jul 6, 2007 8:22 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Noc's contract is also front loaded according

to K.C. Johnson. Which is another small positive in its favor. And Gordon announced his agent switch.

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070706bullsbits,1,7760009.story?c oll=cs-bulls-headlines

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 8:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

It will be

interesting to what BG wants. I have the feeling he won't want the long term security that Pax was talking about. Deng may not want that either. I guess we'll know in the next six weeks or so.

by sue369 on Jul 6, 2007 9:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm going to weigh in

I think this signing is a mistake. I agree with Matt that it's a mistake to lock up Nocioni before you lock up either Deng or Gordon long term. As good as Nocioni is he isn't worth half the contract he got realistically. It wouldn't have hurt the Bulls to negotiate this well down before the contract got leaked. The bulls can renege but that will really hurt them with players thinking they will make a deal then pull it out from under them.

All in all Paxson has had a very poor summer. First the Noah pick made little sense in the context of the team. Now the team has a bunch of energy guys in the frontcourt with no scoring to match. This makes no sense. Paxson has a great reputation with the success to match. However this team badly needs a low post threat it just greatly diminished the chances of getting by signing Nocioni to double his realistic market worth. It's a shame too. I really thought Paxson was smarter than that. Oh well.

Michael Jordan is overrated...except for those 6 titles 4 MVP's DPY and other things like Bryon Russell's ankle...

by pookeyguru on Jul 6, 2007 9:49 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I've been biting my tongue...

for a while now, but the silence can no longer go on..

"This makes no sense. Paxson has a great reputation with the success to match. However this team badly needs a low post threat it just greatly diminished the chances of getting by signing Nocioni to double his realistic market worth."

Yeah, Noc is worth 3+ a year. I agree, Duhon and Bonner type money, makes perfect sense for a guy like Noc. For sure! A 14 and 6 guy who can shoot the 3 well and play multiple positions.

Pookeyguru... who you crappin?

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 7, 2007 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I dont know what 'who you crappin' is

Here's the problem with signing Nocioni to this big of a deal. Before you pay Gordon or Deng, who are both either better or more valuable, you're paying Nocioni a somewhat significant number on your cap. Is he worth it? Not in my opinion if for nothing else because of this.

Your ceiling can be higher if you manage your cap right. However if you give role players double their cap worth well before you give other players ,who have more value on the market and to your team, your limiting your future potential to make moves to make the Bulls a top tier team regardless of conference. That's why I agree with Matt. For the record I thought it was a dumb strategy. And seemingly something of a hurried negotiation for a guy whom you can sort of let the market dictate by using his restricted FA against him. I think Paxson played this wrong. That's the point. I apologize for my lack of perfect diction on the previous statement.

Michael Jordan is overrated...except for those 6 titles 4 MVP's DPY and other things like Bryon Russell's ankle...

by pookeyguru on Jul 7, 2007 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Let's Stop trying to convince matt

matt is obviously a hater. no one is going to convince him that nocioni is worth it. As long as Deng and gordon get resigned, I will be content with having nocioni for 7-8 million a year. I am sure Skiles will feel more pressure to play thomas this year if he has actually improved. Hopefully it wont take him as long as it took him to start gordon. Noah might be the odd man out at first. Let's not forget that someone almost always ends up injured for at least some substantial part of the year and having an abundance of good players that can play 3-4 is helpful.

The only thing that makes me wonder if Nocioni should have been resigned for so much is that the bulls played really well when he was out. Or at least i recall they played really well when Nocioni was out.

by Sambossanova on Jul 7, 2007 2:49 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

Thomas shoud start.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 7, 2007 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and

the Bulls are one of the deapest teams in the league.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 7, 2007 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

having an abundance of good players

is what they already have. I want better players.

Now they're paying a significant salary to a decent player that could've been replaced cheaply (if not fully) and that better player may be harder to attain now, whether he's out there or not.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As many people have asked...

Who is this better player? AND who is this cheaper player? Mo Pete? no. Who?

And, did Noc sleep with your girlfriend?

I suppose that could be one legitimate reason for your hate.

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 7, 2007 11:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

this isn't a college football message board

so don't use the word 'hater' or 'hate'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

is that it?

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 7, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They won alot of games when

he was out. But, they didn't play really well. They beat up alot of poor Eastern Conference teams. But, it was pretty clear to me that the lack of a consistent shooter and scorer off the bench hurt the team at alot of points. No one Skiles could bring off the bench was an offensive threat, and floor spacing really suffered.

by Scotter on Jul 7, 2007 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The money doesn't bother me. . .

But the years do. Hell, it's not my money, and Pax has said they'll still be able to extend Deng and Gordon (assuming Gordon even wants to resign, which is another issue). But the years . . . Nocioni turns 28 in November. It's one thing to give Deng or Gordon a 5 year deal; they're young enough that they'll still be in their primes at the end of it. With Nocioni, though, he's tough to move now, and there's a decent chance that he won't even be a rotation player in 2012. I'm glad they resigned him, since the Bulls would have been worse off without him next year (and if the Bulls were to regress next year, nobody would want to hear about "cap management"), but it seems like Pax was bidding against himself here. If Memphis never made even made him an official offer, what was the hurry?

by Big D on Jul 7, 2007 4:08 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Some Numbers to Look at

    Player             Salary*        PER*     +-**
Tayshaun Prince         7.8        16.1        +3.7
Nene                 8        17.83        +3.2
Al Harrington         7.6        14.89         +1.6
Mike Dunleavy         7.4        14.18        -0.6
Corey Maggette          7        18.67        +5.4
Cuttino Mobley         8.1        12.52        +0.3
Kwame Brown         8.2        13.79        +4.5
Antoine Walker         7.6        9.65        +0.2
Eddy Curry             8.1        17.07        -2.2
Jamal Crawford         7.2         14.6        -3.1
Quentin Richardson     7.5        14.3        +1.6
Malik Rose             7.5        7.77        -6.2
Mark Blount             7.3        12.73        -5.3
Ron Artest             7.5        18.59        +7.4
Manu Ginobili         8.2        24.18        +8.9
Mehmet Okur         8.2        18.19        -6.6
Caron Butler             7.4        18.41        +4.4
Average            7.7        15.5        +1.01
Andres Nocioni                15.69        -5.5

I was hoping compiling this list was going to show some sort of definitive answer but it didn't.

I took a group of players that made 7 - 8 million dollar range and looked at there PER and +-

I don't know if Noc is worth 7 or 8 million a year for the next 5 years but his PER is on average with the group of players I looked at. His +/- is the 3rd worst on the list he is only slightly better then Malik Rose and Mehmet Okur. Which makes me wonder if he is worth the salary. If this Memo I wouldn't question this signing because he fills a need and I don't believe Noc fills a need, besides being a crutch for Skiles.

In my opinion this signing doesn't make the bulls any better or worst in the short term, in the long term this signing may be damaging, if Noc gets injured or his production drops off.

I don't know if the 4th scoring option on a team is worth 7-8 million.

Here is my question, would the Bulls be better off with having a starting lineup of Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Noc/Thomas, and Wallace or Hinrich, Gordon, Thabo, Gasol, Wallace or Hinrich, Thabo, Deng, Gasol, Wallace?

I think Pax has to trade either Gordon or Deng to make this team better. Standing still isn't going to get it done. In an ideal world we wouldn't have to trade either one. But I'm a realist and I want to see some championships.

*Stats from espn.com
**Stats from 82games.com

by Wade.Jones on Jul 7, 2007 4:10 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Well if they were to move any of the two

clearly its Gordon. I have heard Paxson say on the radio that he thinks Deng has the makings of a ''star'' player. One thing I question is Deng's ability to score in the clutch when it matters most. Most ''stars'' come through when the game is on the line and I have yet to see Deng prove that he can get your team a bucket when it matters most.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 7, 2007 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Of course

he has time. I just wonder if he's more of a second fiddle type.

The truth is there will be no trades, these are your Chicago Bulls.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 7, 2007 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ranking your list

I was bored, so I decide to rank your list. The Bulls could do a lot worse for the money they are paying Noce. Blount's name made me laugh, but big guys get big money.

Tayshaun Prince
Eddy Curry
Nene
Caron Butler
Al Harrington
Ron Artest
Andres Nocioni
Manu Ginobili
Mehmet Okur
Corey Maggette
Mike Dunleavy
Quentin Richardson
Jamal Crawford
Kwame Brown
Cuttino Mobley
Antoine Walker
Malik Rose
Mark Blount

by Jesse07 on Jul 7, 2007 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope that was a mistake putting

Manu behind Noc because he's the best player on that list by far.

by Scotter on Jul 7, 2007 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No mistake

I just wanted a reply. I gave Noce the "hometown discount". (Manu is better)- otherwise the list looks pretty good.

by Jesse07 on Jul 7, 2007 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

"I just wanted a reply."

::rolls eyes::

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Based on all the shit that Artest does,

both on and off the court, I'd pick Noc over him.

Also, you must be smoking crack because there's no way Noc is better than Ginobili and Okur.

Gordon, Nocioni, Duhon, Khryapa for Gasol is a really bad idea.

by Colossus on Jul 7, 2007 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or Maggette

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 7, 2007 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

crack is wack

by Jesse07 on Jul 7, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Or Antoine walker

Oh wait, he is better than toine.

by Sambossanova on Jul 7, 2007 1:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Matt is right - it appears that by opening night

we will not have acquired a center/PF that demands the double-team to open up our perimeter game I pined for all year. However, what Center/PF demands a double-team in the league? Shaq was essentially handled 1:1 by big Ben. Eddie Curry and maybe Amare are the two that come to mind. We have exhausted the +- on the Eddie trade and I don't want to go there. So what do we do?

This team with Noc is as deep as any team in the East. Can we beat San Antonio, Dallas or Phoenix - not really. However, this team gives us a chance to go to the finals. Once you go to the finals anything can happen. BG, Hinrich and Deng can catch on fire and if our perimeter game is on fire we are tough to beat. That is what I want from our team - a chance. Yes it is an outside chance but it is a legitimate chance to go to the finals and then maybe pull a huge surprise. A healthy Noc helps us get there. Our advantage over other teams is that now we have a group of young, experienced and smart basketball players that has played together for many years and has built a solid foundation to compete. We may not win it all but we can be considered one of the top ten teams that have a shot at the finals. For now, I'm satisfied with that.

I apologize - this was originally posted in the wrong diary

by chgobr on Jul 7, 2007 9:40 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

thanks, Santo

by hscs on Jul 7, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The numbers

If you look at the amount of money Noc is going to be paid and taking into account the fact that the salary cap is going to go up, the numbers are fine. Noc is arguably one of the top six guys on the team today if healthy. At a salary cap of around $56 mil for next season Noc is making around 1/7th of the cap at ~$8 mil. Noc's number goes done, the salary cap number goes up. Bemoan the fact that there are only about 4 guys in the league that the Bulls could get that could actually make the Bulls significantly better at the 4, not the money spent on Noc.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 7, 2007 10:58 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Is it just me

or does anyone else really not like noc. he played pretty much as bad as you can play in the playoffs this year and is he even healthy? hell just be taking minutes away from noah, TT, n Lu...

by Jbasic89 on Jul 7, 2007 9:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I like Noc.

"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Jul 7, 2007 10:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

So,

just where is this bevy of talented big men at? Ya know, the store where picking out an offensive force down low is as easy as asking where the walnuts are.

Or maybe it's a 1-800 number? 1-800-GET-A-BIGMAN?

So we were supposed to get worse as a team now JUST IN CASE a big man became available and JUST IN CASE we were able to sign/trade for said big man?

Let's just face facts here: The low-post scorer is a Quickly dying breed in the NBA. The reasons for this are numerous and many have been well-documented. This simple fact alone makes what Pax is trying to do (find a low-post scorer) extrememly difficult.

Low-post scorers STILL win championships, so GMs aren't in a hurry to give them away. And if by chance you are lucky enough to be one of those 3-4 GMs who has a legit low-post scorer, you're not letting him go for ANYTHING less than 'the farm' due to simple supply and demand economics.

by Starred4Life on Jul 11, 2007 11:44 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs