Bulls (reportedly) re-sign Andres Nocioni
Trib reports 5 years, $38m.
This is the same amount that's been reported before, so we've been hashing this out over the past couple days. Is it 'market rate'? Sure, average players like Nocioni get fat contracts every offseason. He's likely better than some guys who will be getting paid more. So this signing is fine in a vaccum but that doesn't make me happy about this in terms of what the Bulls are doing with their roster.
Nocioni gets a 5 year commitment before Luol Deng or Ben Gordon. Considering Pax has repeatedly expressed a desire (echoing the sentiment of the entire NBA-watching world) to acquire a big-time scoring power forward, and Tyrus Thomas is still on the team, they're now committing roughly $7-8m a season on the 3rd best PF and backup for the 10 minutes Luol Deng isn't on the floor.
There is now very little roster flexibility, as Pax has shown an unwillingness (correctly or not) to deal Hinrich, Deng, or Gordon. Can't deal Wallace. The guys on rookie contracts can't get much in return due to cap restraints on trades. Upon putting ink to paper, Nocioni automatically becomes an unwanted contract to whatever team wants to unload one of their better players, who usually look for picks, prospects, or expiring contracts.
(Although maybe that means all these ideas of a Nocioni sign/trade for Gasol,Kobe,KG,etc. were far fetched for that very same reason.)
Pax says "He's one of those guys who have helped change a lot of things around here in terms of how we go about business". Well that's fine. But 'the culture' is changed already, and there's no need to reward that with future earnings. Now what you should be going about in your business is contending for a title. That means upgrading the power forward position by getting guys better than Nocioni.
The only way I see is that upgrade now coming is with a trade of Tyrus Thomas, who for the same reasons he's the better candidate as a backup forward than Noc (cheaper, better) also makes him more valuable to other teams in a trade. However it's hard to see a package of Thomas/Noah (or Sefolosha or Gordon for that matter) and the expiring deals of Duhon and Khryapa getting enough salary together to make a major upgrade.
But what I'm really afraid of is an upgrade not happening, and Nocioni either becoming the starter or the 6th man. Meaning that both Pax has failed to find a frontcourt complement to Ben Wallace and Skiles will have an excuse to limit Tyrus Thomas' minutes. And like many other teams in the league, the Bulls will have their very own mid-level contract they can't move because they overpaid for a role player for 5 years.
Retaining a good player like Noc to a 'reasonable' contract isn't by itself reason to fret, I just don't see now after this signing where the team can get appreciably better before next season. And to me that's a failure of a summer.
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The Noc signing isn't about
by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 2:18 PM CDT 0 recs
I'd say
I think Tyrus is a cheap backup PF if this team was going to win the East. I like him a lot but don't see him being the starter with Wallace and getting 30+ minutes a night.
I don't recall a time during the Detroit series where I said to myself 'if only a healthy Nocioni was out there we'd be right with these guys'. They need someone that gets double-teamed in the post. I can't see it for Tyrus this season and I know it ain't happening with Noc.
I think it's too hard roster-wise to pay for the status quo and pay to get better now.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:27 PM CDT
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Noc is getting to play 2/3 of the min
As for the double teaming. I've been wathcing tapes I have from the season. I'm starting to think Deng has more potential than I thought he had. Noc is a key piece to being able to put Deng in the post as a SF.
by Scotter on
Jul 6, 2007 2:39 PM CDT
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watching Deng get pushed around by tayshaun prince
But he's (obviously) still young.
I get what you're saying and your optimism makes me less depressed about this, but I think the same reasoning could've applied by getting some other veteran big man for 1-2 seasons while letting Deng and Tyrus develop their post games. 5 years for Noc. 5!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:42 PM CDT
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when flops turn into technical fouls
by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 2:19 PM CDT 0 recs
Trade
by eross226 on Jul 6, 2007 2:19 PM CDT 0 recs
how is Gordon too small
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:22 PM CDT
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I don't see Nocioni's return limiting TT's minutes
So Tyrus will start and Nocioni will come in to spell him for 20 minutes a game.
by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 2:23 PM CDT 0 recs
20 minutes for 7-8
by Sambossanova on
Jul 6, 2007 2:24 PM CDT
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It'd make things interesting
Sorry if I do, but it's how I think about that position. His similarities to Wallace plus his age can't shake my feeling that he's perfect as the first big off the bench.
And that's in a perfect world. Until proven otherwise I can't see a situation where Skiles plays Tyrus more minutes than Noc, let alone starts over him.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:29 PM CDT
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I think about TT
by EdNealy on
Jul 6, 2007 2:37 PM CDT
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He'll start over Noc
I can't, however say he'll play as good defesne as PJ did, and that will hurt. I'm hoping we re-sign PJ if he doesn't retire; I think we badly need his services cuz there's a good chance TT will find himself in foul trouble with increased minutes.
Besides, Nocioni is the Consumate bench player: has the ability to score in bunches, brings a lot of energy, is unselfish and plays pretty good defense. That energy is needed off the bench midway through the 2nd quarter.
by Starred4Life on
Jul 12, 2007 12:20 AM CDT
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ahhh
by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 2:24 PM CDT 0 recs
Worst Decision of the Pax Era
Contract would be tradeable if it weren't until he is 32. Not to mention five years, longer than the guys we're trading for. I think this locks us into the status quo, and kills any future cap flexibility we might have had with declining hinrich and wallace deals. The jury's still out on this one, but for right now Paxson is guilty of valuing intangibles over tangible basketball skills, of which Noce has few.
by cubbybear on Jul 6, 2007 2:29 PM CDT 0 recs
The report mentioned
by kingj41 on
Jul 6, 2007 2:32 PM CDT
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Saw that after I typed
by cubbybear on
Jul 6, 2007 2:37 PM CDT
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that last sentence is really important
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:32 PM CDT
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few skills?
I think we just need to stop associating 8mil and the term "bench player" and its conventional meanings. Nocioni is not your typical bench player, so conventional thought about 'bench players' doesn't apply to this dude. This guy brings so much in so many different areas, he's definitely worth the investment. I LOVE the character, determination and work ethic this team possesses. Not only does it make watching the Bulls extremely fun to watch and easy to root for, but it wins games.
In my opinion, it is the Bulls' improvement in the areas of character, determination and work ethic that are as responsible as anything else for the Bulls turnaround. Noc helps to preserve and reinforce this during practice, in the locker room and most importantly on the floor. Therefore, in my opinon he is to be highly valued.
Don't forget Nocioni was heavily sought after by many teams when he signed with the Bulls.
He's also the proud owner of an Olympic Gold Medal he won while starting for the Argentine team.
Dude's got skills bro.
by Starred4Life on
Jul 12, 2007 12:47 AM CDT
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The worst thing is
It seems no other teams really showed interest. Did Pax over-extend himself? I know he said he'd match any offer, but if other teams were offering I'm sure he would've considered a sign & trade deal.
Maybe Pax made his move too soon and in the end we have a long term contract that no team will really want to trade for considering no one else made such an offer to Nocioni. He's no longer a trade asset.
by kingj41 on Jul 6, 2007 2:36 PM CDT 0 recs
good point
But Noc's restricted status means that even if he accepted an offer with the Grizzle today the Bulls still had 7 days to figure something out.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:39 PM CDT
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Pax acted quick
I think by now it's fair to say Pax knows 'the art of the deal,' so if was even Slightly interested in trading Noc, he would've waited just as you guys have suggested to gauge other teams' interest.
by Starred4Life on
Jul 12, 2007 12:53 AM CDT
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I will say that it is odd that Paxson departed
However, as is obvious, I like Nocioni and I won't bemoan the signing. I just hope that Paxson did his due diligence on Nocioni's foot. That is a nagging injury.
by 1958ChiTown on Jul 6, 2007 2:41 PM CDT 0 recs
hmm...
I don't get why the organization can't get behind Gordon like they laud Nocioni, even though they're both pretty bad defenders in their own special ways.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 2:45 PM CDT
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+/- says Gordon's scoring makes up for it
by hscs on
Jul 6, 2007 2:50 PM CDT
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This is based solely on circumstantial
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 6, 2007 2:51 PM CDT
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Maybe it has more to do with
by wjb1492 on
Jul 6, 2007 7:14 PM CDT
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that goes a long way with this org
by Starred4Life on
Jul 12, 2007 1:03 AM CDT
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Gordon is the one
He just doesn't fit this team. Let's just say it: Gordon CAN'T play defense. His body just won't let him, that's all.
He's another superb bench player but his ego is already starting to quiver a bit about that too. Gordon still takes wild, low-percentage shots.
His stroke, however, is as pure as they come as we all know already. It'd be tough to give up his scoring on a team devoid of scorers, but as long as Thabo can provide us with 15ppg in his stead the impact will be lessened due to the improved scoring we should get from TT at the 4.
Ultimately, BG's lack of size will punch his ticket in Chicago as long as there is a VERY talented big guard in Sefolosha on the bench. BG served us well during his time here, providing clutch and consistent scoring when we had none. He's got my respect.
by Starred4Life on
Jul 12, 2007 1:02 AM CDT
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taking a breather
however, i do see some slivers of a silver lining here:
a) Pax has been pretty spot on w/ his moves so I'm thinking he has an idea of what he's doing.
b) As I'm sure many of you have noticed, Grizzlies' option "B" is Verajao. If they manage to sign him (and it looks promising), we've maintained the status quo and dealt a heavy blow to our chief conference rival. There is a morsel of relevance in this, if it plays out.
c) Paxson has to be intent on bringing back both Deng and Lil' Ben, right? I mean, if he's willing to spend 38 mill on Noce w/o a second thought, then he has to be hellbent on resigning Deng and Ben this summer. The Noce move was all about maintaining the status quo, well, not securing Ben and/or Deng would be inconsistent with that now stated team goal (well, it was sort of stated).
d) Noce isn't all bad. I mean, he was a beast in last year's playoffs. Granted, that was last year's playoffs, but he performed very well. If he gets reasonably close to those numbers for even a month next year, he will be a tradeable assets ... there's too many stupid/desperate GM's out there for him not to be.
e) 27-32 should still be productive years for Noce. If he was a center or a shooting guard (of similar 'worth'), then there could definitely be an issue with his productiveness. However, his game is such that any potential decline in atheleticism should not hinder his ability to contribute to the team. Of course, if Plantar Fasciitis-like issues continue to dog him, then this last point goes out the window.
I guess this is a long way of saying the jury is still out for me on this move. If it doesn't keep us from resigning Deng and Ben and if Tyrus still sees relatively significant time, then I'm ok with this move. Obviously, any of the above could happen, but I'm willing to reserve judgement for the moment and have faith in Paxson's track record.
by CookDing on Jul 6, 2007 2:52 PM CDT 0 recs
27-32 years old
by Scotter on
Jul 6, 2007 2:59 PM CDT
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A rebuttial
C) Now we become the Suns of the East, just enough talent to reach the confernce fianls, but we cant add the missing pieces cause we would be in Luxary Tax land.
D) in the 2006 playoffs we was being "guarded" by Antoine Walker most of the time and any NBA player could do that against 'Toine.
E) Planter Fascitis is a nagging injury that only subsides with rest. Once he starts playing again it could come back
by LD9 on
Jul 6, 2007 3:10 PM CDT
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Varejo
by LD9 on
Jul 6, 2007 4:09 PM CDT
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What?
rest.. hmmm? Like a whole Summer off??
by Scott 9 on
Jul 6, 2007 3:56 PM CDT
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The injury can come back
by LD9 on
Jul 6, 2007 4:05 PM CDT
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And Tim Duncan had it 2 seasons ago
by wjb1492 on
Jul 6, 2007 7:28 PM CDT
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His career isn't over..
by Rankdog on
Jul 6, 2007 7:51 PM CDT
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2 different sports
by LD9 on
Jul 6, 2007 9:14 PM CDT
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Thats possible
by Rankdog on
Jul 9, 2007 10:43 AM CDT
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a re, er, rebuttal
We still have room to develop our significant players where many of the Suns key players have hit their ceiling
Noce also put up great numbers the month before the playoffs, suggesting that it wasn't just walker's "defense" that contributed to his 20-10 performance (which is good in the playoffs no matter who guards you).
I've had Fascitis and, yes, it can return. That's why I said all bets are off if his body breaks down. Of course, in the majority of cases, the ailment subsides permanently.
by CookDing on
Jul 6, 2007 4:15 PM CDT
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hey turd :)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 4:18 PM CDT
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I guess
by hscs on
Jul 6, 2007 4:57 PM CDT
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if you want him to put up 'great numbers'
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 4:17 PM CDT
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listen
Of course, the problem is, who is the PF/C that can Defend and Shoot? I see a very short list of candidates all of which either:
a) have a monstrosous contract that would both inhibit our ability to resign players and require us to trade away 3-4 key players just to match contracts.
b) are young and on small contracts, meaning that teams would be idiotic to trade them.
What would not signing Noce do to achieve that end? We ARE going to be over the cap next year, that's not even in question. Hell, we're gonna be over the cap for 3-5 years, by which time the window for a win-now approach would have passed.
If you are going to be over the cap for the foreseeable future and you know you are going to resign Deng and Gordon regardless, how much damage are we really doing? The only valid argument I see is that this could cut into Tyrus's playing time. I understand that. However, I am not willing to assume it simply becuase his minutes were limited as a rookie or because Duhon plays too many minutes.
Everybody here can agree that Noce has some value, right? Certainly not 38 Million dollars worth, but he has some. Are we going to get a player like him in Free Agency over the next three years? So, maybe it's helpful to think of it as a the opportunity to add a free-agent-like signing without cap room.
I agree, we've overpaid. But what are our options? It's kind of like Stephen A ripping us for not drafting a low-post scorer when there were not any true options available.
by CookDing on
Jul 6, 2007 6:28 PM CDT
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The Suns of the East?
by PGHcager on
Jul 6, 2007 4:21 PM CDT
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Overpaid?
We weren't going to get the scoring PF this offseason unless it is through a huge trade. Would we get one for '09, '10, '11? Hard to say, but it's better to take what we know than rely on speculation about what will happen after '08. Pax likes certainty.
No question that the rebounding will be there with Wallace, Tyrus, Noah, Deng and Nocioni. The shot blocking and interior defense should be there with that group. Interior scoring is not where this team gets its points.
by nateroth on
Jul 6, 2007 3:25 PM CDT
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I know we can't put the contract aside,
by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 2:54 PM CDT 0 recs
I just think they like Noch.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 3:05 PM CDT 0 recs
and....
by fundamentallysound on
Jul 6, 2007 3:19 PM CDT
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I think
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Jul 6, 2007 3:27 PM CDT
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I'm a Optimist So...
I believe we will be better than last year. The reason is growth, everybody seems to be discounting the growth of all our players.
The only true vet that we have is Big Ben. Everyone else, thats play any significant time, is still 5 years and under. U tryin to tell me that they will all stay at the same level they r now. I hope not. Hinrich, Gordon, and Deng alone with the same type of improvement that they've made every other summer add about 10 points combined easy.
Everybody's wondering about us gettin a scoring big man. Well, tell me who realistically would that be? There are definitely no answers in FA, and since we only have MLE and Vet's exception that wasn't gonna work, and if we trade for someone, of any substance, that means we would have to give up someone good. Not just Noc and some filler.
Before everyone chalks this up as regressing, let's see if TT worked on makin his J consistent and maybe developing a nice baby hook. Let's see if Noah and get some points off put backs and easy set ups. Let's see Noc spread squads out bombing from 3.
I just got good vibes for what's gonna happen this season.
by Ceasaleo on Jul 6, 2007 3:06 PM CDT 0 recs
and there's no power forward
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 6, 2007 3:10 PM CDT 0 recs
Don't forget
Maybe Pax likes a three headed PF monster of PJ, Noce and TT.
Maybe we'll have to wait until Feb. for the magical post scoring PF to appear.
by thug life on Jul 6, 2007 3:17 PM CDT 0 recs
This has
by sue369 on Jul 6, 2007 3:19 PM CDT 0 recs
I like watching TT
by EdNealy on
Jul 6, 2007 3:58 PM CDT
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That's one (flawed) measure.
Point being that there is also statistical evidence that Noce is valuable.
I like Tyrus. I hope he starts next year.
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 6, 2007 4:26 PM CDT
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Noc's more efficient and productive on offense
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 4:30 PM CDT
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I doubt a big trade would happen, but...
by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 3:21 PM CDT 0 recs
Absolutely
by nateroth on
Jul 6, 2007 3:28 PM CDT
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I dunno
But if they can't deal him now then it also likely means a sign/trade with him wasn't going to do it either. It sounds like the Grizzlies were willing to do a 5-year contract too, so why would Noc agree to a sign/trade for fewer guaranteed years.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 3:35 PM CDT
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maybe Pax
by CookDing on
Jul 6, 2007 6:32 PM CDT
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so does this mean
I also don't get why Pax set the market price himself. If the Grizzlies were the only team bidding with us for Noce's services, then I think it would have been wiser to let them overpay him or call their bluff and wait things out. They had the option to match any offer, why over a 5 year deal to someone who isn't in the plans to be a starter down the line? Why not offer Noce something like 14 or 15 mil for 2 years? I just don't see this being the right decision for the continued improvement of the team. Noce has a role and he can fill it up occasionally, but I think that is more a referendum on the quality of the team's offense, rather than on his worth or talent. The Bulls have struggled to score a lot in the past, and Noce has been able to fill that void some nights, but I just don't think he's a long term solution.
by fundamentallysound on Jul 6, 2007 3:30 PM CDT 0 recs
With Noah, Noce, and Tyrus, do the Bulls really
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 6, 2007 3:35 PM CDT
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can't hurt
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 6, 2007 3:38 PM CDT
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Can hurt if Skiles insists
by Scotter on
Jul 6, 2007 3:44 PM CDT
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