38 Million? Damn (UPDATED)
[UPDATE(7/6): Today's trib reports that the Grizzlies aren't willing to get into a bidding war for Nocioni. And that Pax is going against his usual philosophy regarding restricted Free Agents (letting other teams set the market) because of Noc's "value". gag.]
[From the Diaries. I hope this is some ploy by Paxson to get Memphis involved (I'll choose to wistfully ignore this), I really don't see the rush in re-signing Noc, and the more I think about it the less I want him re-signed at all. The problem with signing Noc to a 5-year contract is that he's then untradeable, and it's quite a commitment to the 3rd string PF (lets just assume we get a scoring big man, for kicks, and Noc is behind that guy and Tyrus) and non-Deng SF duty. -Matt]
The Bulls offer Nocioni 38 millionish to resign with the Bulls?
Wow I don't think the Gasol trade is going down because it doesn't sound like the Grizz are trading him. Seems like alot of cash for th Redbull but I would love to see him back. So now it's a waiting game to see if the Grizz match.
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It doesn't
by sue369 on Jul 4, 2007 11:35 PM CDT 0 recs
Is Pax Bluffing?
Pax keeps saying that he'll match any offer, but if the Grizzlies are really dying to have Chapu, then Pax is telling them that they're going to have to trade. I found this paragraph interesting:
I guess it all depends on how big the Grizzlies' hard-on for Nocioni actually is. I'm guessing, based on what they've said, that it's not big enough to let Pau go.
by corey williams corey benjamin on Jul 4, 2007 11:57 PM CDT 0 recs
They aren't trading Gasol.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 12:21 AM CDT 0 recs
I'm not sure why
by cubbybear on
Jul 5, 2007 1:53 AM CDT
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It's not my money
by Big D on Jul 5, 2007 2:37 AM CDT 0 recs
He is underrated
by roach on Jul 5, 2007 5:47 AM CDT 0 recs
This means
Looks like another solid move by Paxson. He made it difficult for Memphis to match and if they really want him, they will have to move Gasol for him.
Kapono set the market with 6 mil a year. Walton only took 5 mil but over 6 years. Noce at 7 mil; why not. It is all monopoly money anyway.
by Jesse07 on Jul 5, 2007 8:07 AM CDT 0 recs
When u put it like that...
by Ceasaleo on
Jul 5, 2007 8:47 AM CDT
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Good perspective
by Jobu on
Jul 5, 2007 9:44 AM CDT
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Noc is better than those guys
I think that a $6-7m 5 year deal for Noc is more than fair in a vaccuum. But this Bulls team has enough average-to-above-average players. They need to get a better player than Nocioni at the 4, then should have Tyrus (who'll be underpaid for a few more years) take Noc's position as the backup.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 9:59 AM CDT
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It depends
by bullshooter on
Jul 5, 2007 10:05 AM CDT
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if Noc is your starting PF
How does getting Pau slow the game down? It's not like running teams don't post up players too. And the Suns wanted KG so apparently they aren't worried about him fitting in their style.
I'm worried that Pax doesn't want an up-tempo team, but he wants his 'hustle' team. I though that was all rhetoric but drafting Noah AND signing Noc is too much to ignore.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 10:26 AM CDT
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and it is not like Paul didn't play in a slow
by SRQman on
Jul 5, 2007 4:22 PM CDT
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Memphis
Pax made a great move. Guys that contribute way less than Noc make much more. (Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, Sam Dalembert, Troy Murphy, Larry Hughes, Theo Ratliff, Rasho Nesterovic sp?) Pax knows Noc was going to draw some attention anyway, so he provided an offer which most teams can't exceed by too much. It's not Noc's fault he is free agent in a year when teams have no cap room to make an outragous offer. (see names above for some examples) Pax gave himself a great amount of flexibility for the extensions, or to absorb a slightly larger contract via trade. Winning teams need to exceed the luxury threshold to remain a winner.
by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 8:42 AM CDT 0 recs
Bad Contracts
by corey williams corey benjamin on
Jul 5, 2007 10:24 AM CDT
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Your argument is not ignored
Plus, salaries escalate yearly for all pro sports. I won't go into too many details, but if you look at a guy that signed 2 years ago and now he's making 10 mil, compared with Noc signing a deal starting at 6 mil, Noc is a steal for what he gives the team.
Your 2nd contract in the NBA is going to exceed the MLE for players who contribute consistently. It's the sad state of the league becaue so many players are not worth what they make, but their 'value' is determined by comparing what others are making.
by kingj41 on
Jul 5, 2007 10:35 AM CDT
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Hakim Warrick
by LD9 on Jul 5, 2007 9:11 AM CDT 0 recs
they'd be cheaper, anyway
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 9:21 AM CDT
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Why not (tongue in cheek)
by kingj41 on
Jul 5, 2007 9:35 AM CDT
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oh, rasberries
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 9:15 AM CDT 0 recs
mmmmmm
However, we can garner one thing from this; it appears in all likleyhood that either gordon or noch will not remain a bull in the long run; there's just not enough money for all of them
by milesgmsu on Jul 5, 2007 9:24 AM CDT 0 recs
There's enough money
Look to 08-09, when the luxury tax should be at $70 milllion or more:
Wallace: $14.5
Hinrich: $10.0
Tyrus: $3.8
Thabo: $1.8
Noah: $3.0 or so.
That's $33.1 million for contracts that will be in place.
Let's say we add $10 million for Gordon, $11 million for Deng and $7.5 million for Nocioni. That would put us at $61.6 million. We would have an additional $10 million or so for future draft picks and other roster filler or mid-level free agents while keeping the team intact. When Wallace's contract comes off the books it will be right when Tyrus and Thabo will be looking for extensions.
by nateroth on
Jul 5, 2007 10:16 AM CDT
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and....
Yes they can sign everybody and be fine financially. But just keeping this same team and adding Noah, that does it for you?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 10:28 AM CDT
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Some improvement
We are not going to be in a position to sign any big free agents anyway, so why not keep our own? Deng and Gordon should continue to improve over the next few years. If we let Nocioni go, who would we get to replace him at $7.5 million per year? Plus, keeping Nocioni gives us depth in case Noah or Tyrus are involved in one of those blockbuster-type trades.
by nateroth on
Jul 5, 2007 10:50 AM CDT
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someone who is worth $7.5 million
by hscs on
Jul 5, 2007 10:54 AM CDT
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Meh
by Petor on
Jul 5, 2007 11:03 AM CDT
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well yeah
Wallace is similarly untradeable, Pax doesn't want to deal Hinrich/Deng/(likely)Gordon. That leaves Tyrus, Thabo, and Noah, who are all under rookie deals for quite a while. It's not a very flexible roster situation.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 11:06 AM CDT
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We give you
The current competition for the front office motto-
a)Dump your unwanted long-term contracts on us.
b)Let's make a deal. We don't care if we get the short end.
c)Ballhoggers wanted!
d)We like drafting late in the 1st rd, then trading those cheap contracts for nothing.
e)We like burying our best players on the bench. (Wait, who's our best player? That guy that passes, moves without the ball, rebounds and hustles?)
f)Luxury tax? We thought that read luxury cap...
by kingj41 on
Jul 5, 2007 11:22 AM CDT
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It really depends on whether
by EdNealy on
Jul 5, 2007 11:05 AM CDT
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my philosophy is
I'm kindof beyond remembering the 0-9 days. Nocioni was quality for that kind of team but the Bulls need somebody better than him. I don't see a situation where they pay somebody better than him AND him.
If the goal is just to maintain the status quo and keep waiting for a big deal, isn't it just as good of an option to let Noc go, sign a short-term vet free agent and give Tyrus more minutes?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 11:11 AM CDT
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Nocion and Tyrus
by Sambossanova on
Jul 5, 2007 11:47 AM CDT
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This means
by Option27 on
Jul 5, 2007 12:21 PM CDT
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don't let logic
by hscs on
Jul 5, 2007 12:25 PM CDT
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I think the problem is
Status quo for right now seems like the best idea. One we know that Bulls are a team with a ton of assests. So why not see if improvement can come from within. They got their ass kicking from the Pistons why not give them one more season to really gage where this team is and what offers would be best without gutting the team. I think next season is a big season for the Bulls and I think I would love to see what this team can do with everyone healthy and with one more year of playoff seasoning. If they go out early again then I think you seriously consider a blockbuster trade next summer.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Jul 5, 2007 11:47 AM CDT
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Yes but
What if we have to include Tyrus in a blockbuster trade for Kobe or KG? In that case the depth that Noc provides as sixth or seventh man will come in handy.
There is something to be said for letting good players go in exchange for average players and roster flexibility, but I don't know if Pax is ready to do that yet. I think he still wants to either: (i) see where this team will go; or (ii) have as many good players as possible in case he can get a great player.
by nateroth on
Jul 5, 2007 12:07 PM CDT
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I see what you're saying
I know it's a good idea to stockpile assets like Pax has done. But my fear is that if Nocioni's signed to a 5 year contract he's no longer an asset.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 12:46 PM CDT
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Agree that
If the strategy is to wait for someone better to come along than, "yes", just save the money and let him go. But who is that? I know that that person could come out of nowhere via trade, but if you just go by what we see today then things get challenging. Looking forward, it's hard to imagine that any of the team option '08 free agents will get away or that player option '08's will be affordable regardless (Brand, O'Neal, Duncan).
A big question is, is a 5 year avg. $7.5/yr deal (provided that's where it sticks) really that absurd in relation to what the market is setting today? And could you still move him? I hate when questionable players (Kapono, Walton) set the market, but this doen't appear to be a Dalembert situation (who set the market and absolutely killed us with Chandler!).
I tend to be a fan of the pre-Plantar Fasciitis Nocioni, who was huge last post-season and was really starting to come on early in the season (in December avg'd 17 & 6 )right before the injury hit.
by EdNealy on
Jul 5, 2007 12:13 PM CDT
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even healthy-footed Noc
So by giving Tyrus his minutes you actually could improve, not just keep the status quo.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 12:43 PM CDT
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Too difficult to compare
by EdNealy on
Jul 5, 2007 1:22 PM CDT
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Noc turns over the ball and fouls too
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 1:33 PM CDT
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Thomas vs Noc
Hopefully Thomas will get more playing time, simply because he will take mins that went to Brown last year (could start at PF) and there will be no more 3 guad lineups, meaning Noc plays more SF.
I think Bulls would be better if they stuck to 10 core guys. If the 11th guy on team is playing role outside of practice you probably aren't contenting anyway
Wallace/Noah/Brown or other 7fter
Thomas/Noc/Noah
Deng/Noc/Thabo/Thomas
Gordon/Thabo
Kirk/Duhon/Thabo
by NY Chicago Fan on
Jul 5, 2007 1:26 PM CDT
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Scola !
by Diabolo on
Jul 6, 2007 5:34 AM CDT
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Not sure where to put this but the
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 11:56 AM CDT 0 recs
justin cage
by Sambossanova on
Jul 5, 2007 12:11 PM CDT
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haha this is all I could get on him
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Jul 5, 2007 1:06 PM CDT
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you don't remember the tourney?
he killed oden that game. 25 points on 8 for 8 shooting, including 3-3 from 3.
that's all i know about him though.
by smegmatic on
Jul 5, 2007 4:57 PM CDT
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If I had to guess, I would say that Paxson is
(1) This year, he will rely on internal development to take the team to next echelon. He wants to give this squad one last year to ripen;
(2) If this team proves incapable of reaching the elite tier of NBA teams, he will trade Gordon and some combination of Tyrus and Noah for a low post scorer. In that scenario, Noce would be another perimeter scoring threat who could partially offset the loss of Gordon's perimeter scoring. Moroever, Noce would provide spacing that would prevent teams from just collapsing on the new low post player.
Just my pure speculation.
by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 12:31 PM CDT 0 recs
ah yes, spacing
by hscs on
Jul 5, 2007 12:36 PM CDT
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I don't think that's fair
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 12:40 PM CDT
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spacing
by hscs on
Jul 5, 2007 1:17 PM CDT
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C'mon now.
by tyger1147 on
Jul 5, 2007 1:18 PM CDT
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Wait.
by paxson43 on
Jul 5, 2007 1:30 PM CDT
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whatever happened to Paxson Jackson?
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Jul 5, 2007 1:45 PM CDT
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thats very lame
by NY Chicago Fan on
Jul 6, 2007 12:01 PM CDT
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I recognize you wish it to be.
I think it's ironic how you wish HSCS to be ironic, but based on your BlogABull personality, it really isn't.
It's quite a har-har.
by tyger1147 on
Jul 5, 2007 5:43 PM CDT
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which is quite different
by hscs on
Jul 5, 2007 11:48 PM CDT
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I am going to have to say that Skiles likely
It seems misguided to trust Paxson and Skiles on a multitude of other issues, but doubt their decisions pertaining to Nocioni.
In any case, I was just guessing as to Paxson's ultimate motivations here.
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 5, 2007 12:41 PM CDT
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Fantastic point..
IMHO, I think that should apply to this situation as well (if that is how someone feels).
With this offer to Noc, I too see a lot of options for this Bulls team.
by Scott 9 on
Jul 5, 2007 12:44 PM CDT
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No one is suggesting that you
What I am suggesting is that, if Paxson and Skiles are willing to spend $38 MM on Nocioni, there is likely an underlying basketball related reason for doing so. In other words, I highly doubt that Paxson is giving Nocioni an offer merely to indulge some sort of personal affection. He obviously feels that Nocioni helps the team in some appreciable manner.
Now, of course, you are free to disagree with Skiles and Paxson and to dispute the basketball related reason for retaining Nocioni, but in order to do so effectively, you would have to (a) clearly identify the purported basketball related reason for the offer; and then (b) adduce some argument more compelling than a failed attempt at pithiness which amounted to "Na na na boo boo, Skiles is a dummy."
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 5, 2007 2:44 PM CDT
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no crap
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 2:56 PM CDT
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You're right.
Anyway, you are right, this territory has been covered and I don't want to turn this thread into another Nocioni Apocalypse.
I was really just trying to figure out what Paxson might be thinking. I thought this might be another sign of an imminent Tyrus trade. That's all.
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 5, 2007 3:03 PM CDT
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Why don't you ask
by bullshooter on
Jul 5, 2007 3:04 PM CDT
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I don't think they'll know much about Paxson's
BTW, just keep in mind that you asked me who my sources were. I gave you an honest answer. I certainly didn't bring it up on my own. If you choose not to believe me, so be it. No skin off my nose.
by 1958ChiTown on
Jul 5, 2007 3:09 PM CDT
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I don't want to get into this again
Just by looking at how long Skiles kept Noc in even playing with one foot suggests there's an unhealthy bond there.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 5, 2007 1:34 PM CDT
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That fact remains
I really think there is a nice plan in place. I'm one of those dudes who think Pax can't make mistakes too. I know I'm biased. But has he really let anyone down?
He has earned his stripes. Right now, if he thinks Nos is worth that much, I have to believe him.
by Option27 on
Jul 5, 2007 2:04 PM CDT
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