38 Million? Damn (UPDATED)

It doesn't

sound like the Grizz are trading Pau. It will be interesting to see how this all folds out.

by sue369 on Jul 4, 2007 11:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I kind of hope so. I wonder how much better Nocioni can become, and he often frustrates me. I still think he carries worth to the team, but if I had to pick one of the "main" guys to let go, it would be him.

Pax keeps saying that he'll match any offer, but if the Grizzlies are really dying to have Chapu, then Pax is telling them that they're going to have to trade. I found this paragraph interesting:

It's unclear whether any oral offers or promises of an offer have been made. Nocioni is believed to be the Grizzlies' No. 1 target. The Grizzlies, however, can offer only an 8 percent increase in their package. Thus, a five-year offer starting at $7 million is worth $40.6 million, a figure the Bulls almost surely would match.

I guess it all depends on how big the Grizzlies' hard-on for Nocioni actually is. I'm guessing, based on what they've said, that it's not big enough to let Pau go.

Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Jul 4, 2007 11:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

They aren't trading Gasol.

I think the Buls really want Nocioni back.

Gordon, Nocioni, Duhon, Khryapa for Gasol is my only offer.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 12:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'm not sure why

He's limited offensively and has no place to start anymore. His injury might keep him out for a while, or be nagging.

Noah and Tyrus and Wallace, OH MY!

by cubbybear on Jul 5, 2007 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not my money

As long as they can afford to extend Deng and Gordon, then I'm fine with resigning Nocioni. He's just a role player (or at least he should be), but at the same time, the Bulls aren't good enough that they can afford to lose him for nothing.

by Big D on Jul 5, 2007 2:37 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

He is underrated

05-06 at the end of the year he was dominating with about 20-10 a night that helped that make it to the playoffs that year

by roach on Jul 5, 2007 5:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

This means

Deng & Gordon are both getting 10+ mil a year.

Looks like another solid move by Paxson. He made it difficult for Memphis to match and if they really want him, they will have to move Gasol for him.

Kapono set the market with 6 mil a year. Walton only took 5 mil but over 6 years. Noce at 7 mil; why not. It is all monopoly money anyway.

by Jesse07 on Jul 5, 2007 8:07 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

When u put it like that...

It really seems like a steal. IMO Noc is much more than 1 or 2 mil better than Kapono and Walton. And we still have money to sign Gordon and Deng.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 5, 2007 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good perspective

Factoring in Kapono & Walton is the right thing to do. I also think striking early is better. "Waiting for the market to be set" can be a terrible way to do things with all the retarded GMs. All it takes is one bad deal and all of the sudden Noc's value is $9 mil/year. Pax did that with Chandler and once Billy King gave Sam Dalembert $60 mil, Chandler's "value" was set.

In Pax we Trust!

by Jobu on Jul 5, 2007 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc is better than those guys

(I'll get all my garbled Noc thoughts in one post sooner or later, promise)

I think that a $6-7m 5 year deal for Noc is more than fair in a vaccuum. But this Bulls team has enough average-to-above-average players. They need to get a better player than Nocioni at the 4, then should have Tyrus (who'll be underpaid for a few more years) take Noc's position as the backup.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It depends

on what type of team Pax wants the Bulls to be. If he signs Noc then he's leaning toward an uptempo perimeter team. In that case Noc is a good deal. If he finds a way to get KG/Gasol/somebody who can post up then Pax wants to slow it down, and consequently Noc is a bad deal, but probably a useful salary in that deal.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 10:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if Noc is your starting PF

you're not a very good team, up-tempo or whatever. You're making Wallace do everything for post defense.

How does getting Pau slow the game down? It's not like running teams don't post up players too. And the Suns wanted KG so apparently they aren't worried about him fitting in their style.

I'm worried that Pax doesn't want an up-tempo team, but he wants his 'hustle' team. I though that was all rhetoric but drafting Noah AND signing Noc is too much to ignore.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and it is not like Paul didn't play in a slow

tempo style in Memphis.

by SRQman on Jul 5, 2007 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis

would have to really dig deep to make an offer for Noc to leave a winning team where he all ready has a strong bond with the team and management. On a lesser team he would generate better stats, but does he want to sacrifice a better chance for a title for 4 mil more guaranteed while learning how to lose gracefully? Not from what I've seen in him.

Pax made a great move. Guys that contribute way less than Noc make much more. (Adonal Foyle, Erick Dampier, Sam Dalembert, Troy Murphy, Larry Hughes, Theo Ratliff, Rasho Nesterovic sp?) Pax knows Noc was going to draw some attention anyway, so he provided an offer which most teams can't exceed by too much. It's not Noc's fault he is free agent in a year when teams have no cap room to make an outragous offer. (see names above for some examples) Pax gave himself a great amount of flexibility for the extensions, or to absorb a slightly larger contract via trade. Winning teams need to exceed the luxury threshold to remain a winner.

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 8:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Bad Contracts

People keep comparing a potential Chapu offer to lousy contracts around the league. If Kapono is overpaid then Chapu should be overpaid by more? I see the logic in that, but it's flawed logic. Great for Jason to get the extra dough, but that doesn't mean that every GM in the league has to make simliar errors. The mistake contracts should not be the basis for the rest of them.

Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Jul 5, 2007 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your argument is not ignored

It's just the fact that the way all sports are run. Except for NBA rookie scale contracts, every other contract that's negotiated is based on a comparison. There's no way around it.

Plus, salaries escalate yearly for all pro sports. I won't go into too many details, but if you look at a guy that signed 2 years ago and now he's making 10 mil, compared with Noc signing a deal starting at 6 mil, Noc is a steal for what he gives the team.

Your 2nd contract in the NBA is going to exceed the MLE for players who contribute consistently. It's the sad state of the league becaue so many players are not worth what they make, but their 'value' is determined by comparing what others are making.

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hakim Warrick

would be a better fit for Noce's role ( backup 3 who gets some minutes at the 4 in a small ball lineup) than Noce does. Also Alexander Johnson would be a nice guy to have also could provide some low post scoring for less than 700k. I dont get why Pax would not find these guys as good sign and trade candidates. Noce for Johnson, Warrick, and a 2008 2nd rounder seems like a good deal.

by LD9 on Jul 5, 2007 9:11 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

they'd be cheaper, anyway

but if you get guys like those they then HAVE to get a big-time scoring 4.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why not (tongue in cheek)

just take Rudy Gay and Hakim Warrick off their hands w/ Nocioni, then make a Duhon deal for Scola. Convince Scola to join the team right away, and poof, the Bulls are ready to run.

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh, rasberries

This should tell me Pau's staying (or at least, if they're dealing Pau they wouldn't want Noc)

Pau Gasol even phoned Nocioni to present a convincing pitch.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 9:15 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

mmmmmm

Pax defentely bid against himself. Since it appears no formal offer has been made by any other teams (besdies the rumour about the grizz) why start with such a big offer? and why have it increase over time; why not start if off huge and have it decrease like the other contracts?

However, we can garner one thing from this; it appears in all likleyhood that either gordon or noch will not remain a bull in the long run; there's just not enough money for all of them

by milesgmsu on Jul 5, 2007 9:24 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

There's enough money

The Bulls are going to do their best to resign their free agents, as they should, even if it puts them over the cap. So long as Deng and Gordon don't ask for the moon, we can lock up them and Nocioni and still be under the luxury tax.

Look to 08-09, when the luxury tax should be at $70 milllion or more:

Wallace: $14.5
Hinrich: $10.0
Tyrus: $3.8
Thabo: $1.8
Noah: $3.0 or so.

That's $33.1 million for contracts that will be in place.

Let's say we add $10 million for Gordon, $11 million for Deng and $7.5 million for Nocioni. That would put us at $61.6 million. We would have an additional $10 million or so for future draft picks and other roster filler or mid-level free agents while keeping the team intact. When Wallace's contract comes off the books it will be right when Tyrus and Thabo will be looking for extensions.

by nateroth on Jul 5, 2007 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and....

then the team makes no significant improvements.

Yes they can sign everybody and be fine financially. But just keeping this same team and adding Noah, that does it for you?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Some improvement

True, that's the same team that just lost in the conferences semis. But I think the only way to make the team appreciably better is to do a blockbuster of Kobe or KG proportions. Obviously in that case the current contracts don't really matter because we would be going for broke. My point was that it is possible to resign everyone and not have to lose pieces for less than they are worth. If we can make sensible trades from that, I'm all for it.

We are not going to be in a position to sign any big free agents anyway, so why not keep our own? Deng and Gordon should continue to improve over the next few years. If we let Nocioni go, who would we get to replace him at $7.5 million per year? Plus, keeping Nocioni gives us depth in case Noah or Tyrus are involved in one of those blockbuster-type trades.

by nateroth on Jul 5, 2007 10:50 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

someone who is worth $7.5 million

or more than 1 bench player.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 10:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Meh

I'd say the Bulls are going to have to upgrade through trades and lucky late-round draft choices anyway, at this point. Unless the Bulls pretty much blow everything up (which I don't think anybody is advocating), they won't be major players in free agency for quite a bit. Why not sign their own assets that can be had for non-completely-ridiculous prices and then try to use expiring contracts, future firsts, and ultramegahustly guys as trade bait?

by Petor on Jul 5, 2007 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

well yeah

but here's my problem with signing Noc then, he's NOT future trade bait. Nobody who's dealing a quality player (and therefore rebuilding) will touch Noc's contract.

Wallace is similarly untradeable, Pax doesn't want to deal Hinrich/Deng/(likely)Gordon. That leaves Tyrus, Thabo, and Noah, who are all under rookie deals for quite a while. It's not a very flexible roster situation.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 11:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We give you

the New York Knicks...
The current competition for the front office motto-
a)Dump your unwanted long-term contracts on us.
b)Let's make a deal. We don't care if we get the short end.
c)Ballhoggers wanted!
d)We like drafting late in the 1st rd, then trading those cheap contracts for nothing.
e)We like burying our best players on the bench. (Wait, who's our best player? That guy that passes, moves without the ball, rebounds and hustles?)
f)Luxury tax? We thought that read luxury cap...

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It really depends on whether

you think we can get significantly better anytime soon through trades. Too many people simply think that Paxson is going to buy a $1 for $.60 and somehow get a Garnett/Gasol without giving up anything. Don't get me wrong, if the "media-made-up" trade of Nocioni, Duhon and Noah can get you Gasol, then have at it. I'm trying not to forget that it was only 3 years ago that this team started 0-9 and Nocioni, Duhon, Gordon and Deng were all 1st year players. All have improved marketedly and I think their (Duhon excluded) ceilings are higher. With a few cheaper FAs (maybe Mihm, etc) and some TT and Thabo improvement, we're awfully close as is.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

my philosophy is

if you can't get that kind of killer deal for Gasol (the made up one is likely too good to be true, I admit) then just wait until you can, for him or somebody else.

I'm kindof beyond remembering the 0-9 days. Nocioni was quality for that kind of team but the Bulls need somebody better than him. I don't see a situation where they pay somebody better than him AND him.

If the goal is just to maintain the status quo and keep waiting for a big deal, isn't it just as good of an option to let Noc go, sign a short-term vet free agent and give Tyrus more minutes?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nocion and Tyrus

I hope this doesnt mean that Tyrus will be the 8th man for the bulls again. And where does that putt noah. Hopefully they wont be competing with malik allen for playing. And PJ Brown is probably not coming back.

by Sambossanova on Jul 5, 2007 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This means

the Bulls have options now. Noc is the back up SF and sometimes PF when they go small

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

by Option27 on Jul 5, 2007 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't let logic

confuse Scott Skiles when he's bringing Nocioni into a game.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the problem is

it's like going fishing in a pond full of minnows and alligators. Ha what? I just don't think there's much out there right now that is really obtainable.

Status quo for right now seems like the best idea. One we know that Bulls are a team with a ton of assests. So why not see if improvement can come from within. They got their ass kicking from the Pistons why not give them one more season to really gage where this team is and what offers would be best without gutting the team. I think next season is a big season for the Bulls and I think I would love to see what this team can do with everyone healthy and with one more year of playoff seasoning. If they go out early again then I think you seriously consider a blockbuster trade next summer.

Gordon, Nocioni, Duhon, Khryapa for Gasol is my only offer.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yes but

"If the goal is just to maintain the status quo and keep waiting for a big deal, isn't it just as good of an option to let Noc go, sign a short-term vet free agent and give Tyrus more minutes?"

What if we have to include Tyrus in a blockbuster trade for Kobe or KG? In that case the depth that Noc provides as sixth or seventh man will come in handy.

There is something to be said for letting good players go in exchange for average players and roster flexibility, but I don't know if Pax is ready to do that yet. I think he still wants to either: (i) see where this team will go; or (ii) have as many good players as possible in case he can get a great player.

by nateroth on Jul 5, 2007 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well said.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I see what you're saying

but they have to include a big contract (like Nocioni) in a deal for KG anyway. And if you're waiting until midseason, there's the problem with Tyrus not being as desireable when he's buried behind Noc to start the year.

I know it's a good idea to stockpile assets like Pax has done. But my fear is that if Nocioni's signed to a 5 year contract he's no longer an asset.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree that

waiting for the "killer deal" is the right course of action and of course, we can't pay somebody better than Nocioni AND him AND also re-sign Deng and Gordon.

If the strategy is to wait for someone better to come along than, "yes", just save the money and let him go. But who is that? I know that that person could come out of nowhere via trade, but if you just go by what we see today then things get challenging. Looking forward, it's hard to imagine that any of the team option '08 free agents will get away or that player option '08's will be affordable regardless (Brand, O'Neal, Duncan).

A big question is, is a 5 year avg. $7.5/yr deal (provided that's where it sticks) really that absurd in relation to what the market is setting today? And could you still move him? I hate when questionable players (Kapono, Walton) set the market, but this doen't appear to be a Dalembert situation (who set the market and absolutely killed us with Chandler!).

I tend to be a fan of the pre-Plantar Fasciitis Nocioni, who was huge last post-season and was really starting to come on early in the season (in December avg'd 17 & 6 )right before the injury hit.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

even healthy-footed Noc

likely won't be as good as Tyrus Thomas.

So by giving Tyrus his minutes you actually could improve, not just keep the status quo.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Too difficult to compare

the two as they're completely different players. Importantly, Nocioni's presence allows Thomas to play quality minutes as one can never forget the turnovers and propensity to foul early. I'd like to see TT's minutes jump to over 30 like they did for both Gordon and Deng in their 2nd years, but I think they were a little further along and as you know, the Bulls weren't nearly as deep.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc turns over the ball and fouls too

not as often as Tyrus, but it's not like Nocioni is anywhere near an under-control player in those regards.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Thomas vs Noc

Thomas may be the better PF (hopefully but Thomas still made many mistakes and has no short jump shot) but I think a healthy Noc is better SF because he has 3 pt range.

Hopefully Thomas will get more playing time, simply because he will take mins that went to Brown last year (could start at PF) and there will be no more 3 guad lineups, meaning Noc plays more SF.

I think Bulls would be better if they stuck to 10 core guys. If the 11th guy on team is playing role outside of practice you probably aren't contenting anyway

Wallace/Noah/Brown or other 7fter
Thomas/Noc/Noah
Deng/Noc/Thabo/Thomas
Gordon/Thabo
Kirk/Duhon/Thabo

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 5, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Scola !

This is why getting Scola should be pursued very aggressively by Bulls management. He would bring that extra dimension the Bulls need (only possibly using the mid-level). Plus then having Nocioni would be a plus (for Scola's integration).

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Jul 6, 2007 5:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not sure where to put this but the

''offical summer league roster.''

http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/summer_league_roster07.html

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 11:56 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

justin cage

I saw him play a couple of times on TV and was very impressed. I hope he makes the squad. He'd make a good backup SF and might even be able to play a littl bit of guard. Tough defender will make him a favorite with the bulls organization...how many times have we heard that around here. I wish for once I could, his stron and polished offensive skills will make him a favorite.

by Sambossanova on Jul 5, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

haha this is all I could get on him

http://youtube.com/watch?v=xJczFZKm62M

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you don't remember the tourney?

http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaab/boxscore?gid=200703170443

he killed oden that game. 25 points on 8 for 8 shooting, including 3-3 from 3.

that's all i know about him though.

by smegmatic on Jul 5, 2007 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If I had to guess, I would say that Paxson is

developing a two-pronged strategy:

(1) This year, he will rely on internal development to take the team to next echelon. He wants to give this squad one last year to ripen;

(2) If this team proves incapable of reaching the elite tier of NBA teams, he will trade Gordon and some combination of Tyrus and Noah for a low post scorer. In that scenario, Noce would be another perimeter scoring threat who could partially offset the loss of Gordon's perimeter scoring. Moroever, Noce would provide spacing that would prevent teams from just collapsing on the new low post player.

Just my pure speculation.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 12:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

ah yes, spacing

Nocioni also provides energy, toughness, hustle, and heart. Scott Skiles knows what's important.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think that's fair

Spacing (i.e. shooting) is something that you can actually see produce results during the game, unlike the grit index. If they lose Noc the team does need another 3-point shooter off the bench.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 12:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

spacing

was pounded into tiny particles of meaningless cliche dust by Skiles last season. It's right up there with energy, and Nocioni wouldn't likely be in the game with a post player anyway. He'd still be backing up the power forward position.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

C'mon now.

When has "fair" ever stopped a hot shit college student from putting others down?

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 5, 2007 1:18 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

har-har

it's irony, stupid.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait.

PaxJax is now hscs? Can we take a vote on this?

by paxson43 on Jul 5, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

whatever happened to Paxson Jackson?

Did he not pay his internet bill?

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think

Paxon Jackson = hscs

by sue369 on Jul 5, 2007 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thats very lame

Seems childish for a "blogger" who is as opionaited (that word doesn't have to be negative) as Pax Jax to change name

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 6, 2007 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

seems childish to care one way or another

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I recognize you wish it to be.

But you really are the site "bully" who has most of his posts consisting of putting others down and implying how stupid they are. Just like a hot shit college student. So... if that's all just an act, that's quite one to do.

I think it's ironic how you wish HSCS to be ironic, but based on your BlogABull personality, it really isn't.

It's quite a har-har.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 5, 2007 5:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's an infinite vortex of irony

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

which is quite different

from a vortex of infinite irony.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I am going to have to say that Skiles likely

does know what is important, given that he is an NBA coach. No coach is perfect, obviously, but Skiles has a good reputation in the League.

It seems misguided to trust Paxson and Skiles on a multitude of other issues, but doubt their decisions pertaining to Nocioni.

In any case, I was just guessing as to Paxson's ultimate motivations here.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Fantastic point..

There were a lot of "whatever pax does on draft day, I'm happy with" types of comments pre-draft.

IMHO, I think that should apply to this situation as well (if that is how someone feels).

With this offer to Noc, I too see a lot of options for this Bulls team.

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 5, 2007 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't blindly trust Paxson and Skiles

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No one is suggesting that you

"blindly" trust anyone.

What I am suggesting is that, if Paxson and Skiles are willing to spend $38 MM on Nocioni, there is likely an underlying basketball related reason for doing so. In other words, I highly doubt that Paxson is giving Nocioni an offer merely to indulge some sort of personal affection. He obviously feels that Nocioni helps the team in some appreciable manner.

Now, of course, you are free to disagree with Skiles and Paxson and to dispute the basketball related reason for retaining Nocioni, but in order to do so effectively, you would have to (a) clearly identify the purported basketball related reason for the offer; and then (b) adduce some argument more compelling than a failed attempt at pithiness which amounted to "Na na na boo boo, Skiles is a dummy."

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

you just have a boring

browser history.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no crap

come on 1958, it's not like this page hasn't gone over the 'basketball reasons' regarding Noc before.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You're right.

But it's probably also true that the blog has already seen its fair share of satirical "grit" comments from hscs, errr, PaxsonJackson, errr, Ryan.

Anyway, you are right, this territory has been covered and I don't want to turn this thread into another Nocioni Apocalypse.

I was really just trying to figure out what Paxson might be thinking. I thought this might be another sign of an imminent Tyrus trade. That's all.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why don't you ask

all of your "contacts" and report back to us?

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ha!

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think they'll know much about Paxson's

long termn plans for the Bulls.

BTW, just keep in mind that you asked me who my sources were. I gave you an honest answer. I certainly didn't bring it up on my own. If you choose not to believe me, so be it. No skin off my nose.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 5, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to get into this again

but we don't have to like everything about the coach or GM to acknowledge the good job they're doing.

Just by looking at how long Skiles kept Noc in even playing with one foot suggests there's an unhealthy bond there.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That fact remains

The Bulls have done the best rebuilding the NBA has seen in a long time. They just want to be careful with their guys. Like Pax says, "Not letting a player go for nothing."

I really think there is a nice plan in place. I'm one of those dudes who think Pax can't make mistakes too. I know I'm biased. But has he really let anyone down?

He has earned his stripes. Right now, if he thinks Nos is worth that much, I have to believe him.

Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad

by Option27 on Jul 5, 2007 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Instead of judging against other FA overpayments

Matt Bonner got 3yrs, $9m from the Spurs (a smart team). And he's doesn't offer much less production than Nocioni.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

rate-based production, of course.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Come on!

We're grasping a bit with the Matt "5 pt, 2 bds" Bonner a bit aren't we?

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

::groan::

(that's why I included 'rate-based' although I was hoping I wouldn't have to.)

On a championship team (like the one that just won the championship), guys like Nocioni play 11 minutes a game like Matt Bonner did, which is why his pts/rebs per game are so low.

Bonner shoots nearly as well, rebounds better, and commits fewer TOs than Nocioni. Nocioni's better as a creating shots for himself, but the Bulls shouldn't want him to do that too much anyway (although I always appreciated it when Gordon was on the bench and they needed him to).

I'm not saying the Bulls are better off with Bonner, I was using him as an example of how much you can pay these types of players if you're smart.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't miss the rate-based...

Groan, right back at you...and on teams like Toronto, guys like Matt Bonner play 20 minutes and average 7 points. I think we get into trouble when we take a bad or average player and extrapolate production to 48 minutes. They play limited minutes often-times for a reason.

The contract info is useful as I tend to see it as justification for a solid Nocioni salary. That said, we obviously differ in the value of his skill-set. No harm.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

damn skippy

Basketball isn't played on a calculator, blog-boy!

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

point taken

Pax might be overpaying for Noc if you look at the mins that Noc could be playing on Bulls.

I'm guessing Pax looks at Noc as insurance and flexibility off the bench.

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 5, 2007 1:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

And I heard Chris Wallace..

Flew down to Argentina to visit Matt Bonner too. That fact just didn't make the news for some reason.

Matt.. You run a great site. But your views on Nocioni are just not on point.

The red and white

by Scott 9 on Jul 5, 2007 11:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

now we all have to judge value

based on what Chris "lets trade for Gin Baker" Wallace does?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

agreed Spurs are smart

but they also have Tim "best PF/C in the game" Duncan, so that makes it little easier to just add few pieces and contend

I think Pax is smart to not overpay for other teams players or trades and bide his time. Salary cap will continue to rise and in 2 years if Bulls don't get to finals or have a great move come to them then they can try and go after James / Wade or blow up team some other way. Just because Deng/Gordon/Hinrich are untradeable now doesn't mean case is same in 2 yrs

Lets face it the Bulls goal is to win games and contend for title, which with current roster they should. They remain the deepest, most talented, youngest roster in Eastern Conf, and us fans shouldn't forget that. Only 1 team can win finals and it seems that Pax is not going to risk a team that should be in playoffs for foreseeable future

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 5, 2007 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apples and Oranges

You can't compare re-signing Noc to offering free agent contracts to other players. The Bulls can only offer the MLE ($5.5M?) and the Veteran's minimum ($1.8M?) to available players, restricted and unrestricted. While I think the Bulls will sign players for both deals, the caliber of talent those contracts represent will be of the Joe Smith/Chris Mihm variety. If the Bulls want a $7-8M per year player without a complicated sign and trade, they can only offer that deal to their own - like Noc. The money has no effect on the cap 'cause the Bulls are already over it, or will be when the draft picks are signed and Gordon and Deng are extended.

Even so, I think Noc is a goner. Pax's offer is nothing more than due-diligence. Memphis is offering more than just money, they are giving him a chance to play the 3, something that isn't going to happen in Chicago. The best we can hope for is a sign and trade to get something of value in return.

by rednomore on Jul 5, 2007 1:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

What about Rudy Gay?

Shouldn't he be starting sometime soon for he Grizz?

Noah and Tyrus and Wallace, OH MY!

by cubbybear on Jul 5, 2007 6:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

This deal

is only an Andre Barret away from being the MLE. It's not outrageous and can be easily dealt, there's no reason not to keep him other than playing time concerns. And there is nobody clearly better at the 4 right now or to back up the 3.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 1:54 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

it's the years

Brian Scalabrine is contract poison even though he's only making $3m, because he has several years left.

This is why nobody here wants Nazr Mohammed or Joel Przybilla. They're making 5 million or so, but it's for 4 more seasons. Same with the loads of crap the TWolves have.

I'd say GMs are more willing to take bigger, shorter term contracts. It was likely easier for the Knicks to move Steve Francis than Jerome James.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nobody wants them

because they aren't that good.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agree!

It's only a poison contract when ur stuck paying a guy who doesn't produce. And the examples of Scalabrine and Pzybrilla(sp?), don't really work here.

Most times when u get those type of "poison" contracts, it's becuz some dumb GM has seen the guy play spot minutes somewhere else and projects the guy to being a nice player in their scheme once given the extra minutes. Truthfully, u can look at any sport and see that.

Noc is a known product. And if he keeps getting better or even stays the same, I can't see someone not wanting to take him and his contract, especially if it's a part of a bigger deal.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 5, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd just say that rednomore

could very well be right that Noc is gone if Memphis throws the "dumb" money at him given their cap space. That and the chance to start could do it. Pax's first contract pass was due-diligence and if Noc took it, then I think we're getting reasonable "value" (that sounds way to much like Mel Kiper).

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What about Rudy Gay?

Isn't he their 3 of the future? The last two months of the season he put good numbers and played over 30 minutes per. Noc would be stuck in a rotation there, too.

by jamestkirk on Jul 5, 2007 4:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If you don't want Noce back . . .

Then who do you want to bring in that's better than he is? Don't say Pau Gasol; the Grizzlies aren't going to be trading him if they're trying to sign a player like Nocioni. As much as you guys dream of a blockbuster trade bringing a "superstar" in, it probably isn't going to happen. Nocioni is a limited player, but the Bulls aren't going to be a better team if they lose him for nothing. They won 49 games last year in the pathetic Eastern Conference; they aren't good enough yet that they can afford to let someone with value go without getting anything in return.

by Big D on Jul 5, 2007 2:41 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

bring in tyrus thomas

this isn't a one-year thing for Noc. It's 5 years. I'm trying to think long-term for the roster.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Argentinian Newspaper

Well, my spanish is rusty, and don't even try using babelfish because there's a mention of horseradish in there somewhere, but an Argentinian newspaper article is claiming that the Grizzlies have made a verbal offer to Noc for $46mil over 5 years.

http://www.ole.com.ar/notas/2007/07/05/01451057.html

If I'm not mistaken that's like the deal Hinrich got and definitely not worth matching to keep him around. Now I don't know how the sign-and-trade would work but I imagine it's going to be a game of chicken between Pax and the Griz. Is Pax really going to match and keep Nocioni or are the Grizzlies going to concede and admit that they should trade Gasol now.

by CubFan81 on Jul 5, 2007 2:52 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

For that...

Let him go...

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

New target...

Mo Pete

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

46 Mil?

wow not good. I thought the Grizz had some money issues?

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 2:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well have fun in Tennesee

Chapu! Sure you'll love it.Ewaaahhh. What about the report they are going after palm tree? I thought you were a Bull for life Redbull! Nooooooooooooooooo! No more NOCIIII ONIIIIIIIII!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

We can't let this crazy ass Argentinian

get away! I do love you Noch I was just upset at your fooooooot! You make the games fun please don't go hang out with Elvis! They lied he's dead!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 3:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think we can all

pretty much kiss Noce goodbye...so much for Pax not want to lose a good player for nothing

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 5, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I thought they didn't have the cap room

to go that high.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Aren't they also reportedly

offering Varejo about 8 mil/yr? And they plan on keeping Pau? That would be shady if they used Pau to convince Noc to sign, then trade Pau away? Or maybe Pau recruited him seeing it as his path to escape? Hmmmmmm

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Your getting alittle.............

I don't know! No!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just seems strange

Pau ~ 14 Mil
*Noc ~ 7.5 Mil
*Varejao ~ 7.5 Mil
Miller ~ 8 Mil
Cardinal ~ 6 Mil
Swift ~ 6 Mil
Stoudamire ~ 4.5 Mil

All for a losing team? The Bulls $$$ situation isn't that bad. Seems like Memphis would have to do some dealing to make sense of the extra spending.

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They've had one non-playoff year

in the last 4. They aren't that bad.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I know

but with the owner situation, supposed cost-cutting, that's a lot in extra cash to take on for a team that won't be a serious title contender.

by kingj41 on Jul 5, 2007 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that team would be

by milesgmsu on Jul 5, 2007 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I question their sanity anyway

but despite my wishful thinking I still don't understand why the Grizzlies would sign Nocioni and deal Pau. If they're dealing Pau you'd think they'd go into dymanite rebuilding mode and want expiring deals, picks, and rookie contracts.

Perhaps they really think Noc will help them run phoenix-style with Iavoroni as the coach.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 5, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or Wallace is buddies with Noce's agent

and is getting some extra leverage on a player he's actually going to make an official offer to.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 3:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc fits perfectly in that offense

It's all about drive and kick and flop on defense.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Oof.

If that number is actually correct (not a given because foreign papers have gotten things wrong about the NBA many a time) then obviously it's an albatross contract and the Bulls have to let Noc walk. But I wonder if Paxson could use Noc's professed love for the Bulls organization to talk him and his agent into pushing for a sign-and-trade in which the Bulls get a trade exception. They could throw in a future 2nd-rounder to sweeten the pot for the Griz, who shouldn't have too many qualms with giving up an exception to an Eastern conference team. That way the Bulls could prey on the Phoenixes and Denvers of the world, teams desperately trying to avoid the luxury tax. They could almost certainly parlay 8 million + in immediate cap relief into a useful player.

by Petor on Jul 5, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Great idea if

Noc is on his way out.

by EdNealy on Jul 5, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's a pretty interesting article

The picture and caption are pretty funny, as I imagine that's how Nocioni makes all of his decisions. Memphis going after 2 other international guys is surprising too. Was Heisley jerking around Jerry West all those years because he thought West could field a contender for less?

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sign and trade

for Warrick, Johnson, and a 2008 2nd rounder. Offer Darko 21/3 and if turns it down, find some way to get Scola from San Antonio. Warrick and Johnson are better trade chips than Noc as they are cheaper with more upside for the "killer trade".

by LD9 on Jul 5, 2007 3:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd settle

for just their 1st round pick this year or next.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Why would they do that?

Memphis is already under the salary cap, so they have NO motivation to do a sign-and-trade. The only reason they'd have to do one is if they were worried the Bulls would match their offer to Nocioni. If they're really offering him $9 million a year, they probably don't have to worry about that.

by Big D on Jul 5, 2007 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe they do, maybe they don't

Pax said he will match...

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Get that man

some money! Make it green!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 5, 2007 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis's offer is not being reported

on Yahoo or ESPN. Has anyone had confirmation of the offer?

by chgobr on Jul 5, 2007 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If they want to sign Varejo also

I imagine one of them has to come from sign and trade. Memphis knows because of Pax's brother they cant match anything more than the MLE without going to luxary tax terrority. We can afford to match so they might offer something. My hope would be for Warrick, Johnson, and a 2008 2nd rounder, but I'll Settle for Warrick and a future 2nd rounder.

by LD9 on Jul 5, 2007 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not to steal joejoe's thunder

and if you've already linked to it, I apologize. Watch this video, the entire thing, and then think about what a bargain Noc is.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 5, 2007 3:59 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Holy Shit!

That was incredible. That guy is an idiot.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 5, 2007 5:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

thoughts

1. Let's not accept the $46M as truth yet. Foreign press is known to make mistakes (I'm thinking Deng's reported $100M contract by the guardian i beleive last year). And While i;m pretty good with spanish, I didn't bother reading the article; maybe it's not US dollars

1A. The article even says that the Bulls offerded 40M, so that would, pattern wise, rbing the grizz down to 44

If noch want's anything above 8M a year, he's played his last game. He's a great player, but to put a seventh of your salary cap into a palyer like that, especially with questions on his injury, its not worth it
There's no reason the grizz shouldn't, theoretically, do a sign and trade. The Bulls would ahve to give them something, but a first rounder or a 2nd rounder in the future would be fantastic
If the grizz sign varejao and noch, they don't win 25 games next year w or w/out pau
Please noch, stay home. We love you here. We chant your name without provocation

by milesgmsu on Jul 5, 2007 4:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

let's remember Ole has

reported accurately on Nocioni before, and has a lot more experience with NBA numbers than any paper in the UK. A legitimate reason for doubting the offer is the fact that it's not a 'real' offer.

by hscs on Jul 5, 2007 4:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It has been over an hour since the post

and nothing on any web site. I am skeptical the 46 mil is real. It makes more sense for Memphis to go after Darko who can grow with their team than Noc at these prices. I guess I want to keep Noc more than I thought. His injury really put him back this year. We forgot that he was a force before being injured. If he is careful this summer he should return to the impact player he can be. It is nice to have him behind Deng. He also is multi-dimensional with the 3, can drive the lane, is an excellent FT shooter plus he can play great D when healthy.

by chgobr on Jul 5, 2007 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I read the article

and it clearly (in spanish) says that the Bulls offered close to 40mil. which is correct. It also states that the offer that the grizz made to noc was a verbal offer. So I guess that it's pretty accurate. It also questions/wonders the Bulls' ability to commit to that much money knowing that it has to still extend BG and LD next year.

The Future is bright!

by Goostafer on Jul 5, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Miles

your logic astounds me. If it says the bulls offered 2 mil more than what we read in the trib, why would that bring down the Griz offer? And nobody gives a shit how good you are at Spanish if you don't read the article and tell us what it actually says...

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Trade Noc and Gordon for Pau and Gay.

by eross226 on Jul 5, 2007 5:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

KC Johnson

on CTL tonight says that Pau is no longer on the market. Not that KC knows what he's talking about but he knows more than I do. He also said Pax will not make a big trade.

by sue369 on Jul 5, 2007 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that's depressing news

Maybe they can wait a few weeks until Pau gets cranky again...unfortunately by then Noc could already be re-signed to a contract Memphis doesn't want.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

why is that bad news

wouldn't you rather get the guy for less than you were going to offer him?

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm assuming

a Gasol deal can't get done without Noc in a sign/trade. Otherwise how do they get the necessary trade dollars?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

sign and trade

or just a straight up trade, if Noc gets the money, fewer contracts are needed.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I say just

sign and trade Noc for Rudy Gay and whatever else they have to do to make it financially possible. If not, they should just keep Noc for now.

by goldengod on Jul 5, 2007 9:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah they should totally do whatever it takes!

they aren't trading young and cheap and decent Rudy Gay.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis has a new GM and a new coach,

who I expect to be at least decent in Ivaroni. Memphis is trying to look something like the Toronto Raptors with Gasol playing the role of Chris Bosh. Varejao and Noc are pieces you put around a star player. Memphis's pursuit of them make it very clear Gasol is off the block, and isn't going to come cheaply.

by Scotter on Jul 5, 2007 6:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The only thing the source said

was that the contract was for five years and started at $6.3 - $6.4 Million. The 10% raise every year is the writer engaging in speculation. I doubt that that is the way the Bulls would want to structure Noc's contract. They front loaded Wallace and they front loaded Hinrich. I expect this 5 year deal is more like $30-32 Million.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Jul 5, 2007 7:47 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

good point

without the raises it becomes a better deal.

I still shudder at a 5 year contract though.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

38 million is fair money for Noc

Look at what the Knicks gave Jerome James... like 5.5 million a year to produce a point and a a rebound per game. LOL. That is really sad when you stop and think about it.

by vlad001 on Jul 5, 2007 8:05 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Except for Jerome James

I wish I made that kind of money for doing so little.

Noah and Tyrus and Wallace, OH MY!

by cubbybear on Jul 5, 2007 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

As long

as theres enough for Deng next year and maybe Gordon but id rather see him traded, then give him what ever money they think is fair.

by eross226 on Jul 5, 2007 8:24 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Sounds like Memphis isn't that serious

http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070705bulls,1,2443522.story?coll= cs-home-headlines

Despite a transcontinental flight to woo Andres Nocioni personally in his native Argentina, all indications are the Memphis Grizzlies aren't doing enough of the latter with the Bulls' restricted free agent.

Barring an unforeseen change of philosophy, league sources said the Grizzlies, who have made an oral offer not much better than the Bulls' written offer, wouldn't increase their pursuit of Nocioni.

While nothing is official until Nocioni signs, all signs point to Nocioni accepting Bulls general manager John Paxson's five-year deal worth near $38 million, perhaps within days.

When Paxson took the rare move of proactively offering a restricted free agent that deal, which runs counter to Chairman Jerry Reinsdorf's philosophy of not setting the market, it merely backed up his season-long stance that Nocioni is valuable and needs to be re-signed.

Even if the Grizzlies reached a $46 million offer that was reported erroneously in the Argentine media, the Bulls would have seven days to match because they still own his rights.

A $46 million offer might give Paxson pause. As of late Thursday, however, all indications were that the Grizzlies, who also are considering Cavaliers' restricted free agent Anderson Varejao, were prepared to move on.

I thought that $46 million report sounded a bit ridiculous. I know there's a lot of dumb GM's in the league, but giving Nocioni $9 million a year would be pretty bad.

by Big D on Jul 5, 2007 11:57 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

nocioni for near 38 million

that deal doesn't sound to bad to have him for about 7.25 million a year. When you think about it, thats about 1.25 million more than the midlevel exception.
Assuming we want nocioni back, which paxson and skiles do, then near 38 million is a decent contract.

by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 12:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I look forward to Nocioni having a great year.

His injury should be improved by the time the season starts. You could argue that with a healthy Nocioni we beat Detroit and go the the Conference Finals.

by chgobr on Jul 6, 2007 7:11 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm pleasantly surprised

If this 38 mil isn't that much more than the vet exception (as has been said), I'm thinking Nocioni is a good signing. He's the kind of guy I could see winning sixth man of the year. I also think his three point shooting is an underrated asset from the 3/4. Tyrus, for all he brings, can't shoot from long range - and the ability to stretch the floor is a big plus. With Nocioni, Thabo and Tyrus coming off the bench, that's a whole lot of talent.

Like the continuity here - it's winning continuity, as opposed to Cubs continuity, which is...

by Freethefro on Jul 6, 2007 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

if he wins 6th man of the year

that means he's the 6th man, which is no good.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't follow

do you mean Tyrus should be our sixth man, or Ben, or that 38 mil is too much for a first-guy-off the bench?

by Freethefro on Jul 6, 2007 9:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No, Wallace isn't on the bench.

I don't want Nocioni to start, I'm pretty sure I don't want Tyrus to start. I want somebody better than both of them starting at the 4. Tyrus being the first big off the bench. Noc getting 5-10 minutes backing up Deng and picking up other minutes in random small-ball time at the 4.

That likely won't happen if Noc is re-signed, because he'll be making good money and is already the star camper at Skiles' club grit.

I'd hope that Tyrus' play last year would sway Skiles to play him more instead, but I'll believe it when I see it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think he meant

Ben Gordon, not Wallace

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 6, 2007 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

oh

well lets hope everyone knows how I feel about Gordon on the bench. (cliffs notes: I hate it)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I agree that Noc shouldn't start at 4

but I'm surprised you don't want Tyrus to start at 4. I'm not sold on Tyrus yet either, but barring a huge trade (which I don't think is worth mentioning too much until it happens due to odds against), the Bulls season will sway a lot on Tyrus's ability to be a major factor. If his play deserves mins and a start at 4 I think that is great sign for Bulls.

We all would love to see Hinrich / BenG / Deng keep improving and Wallace dominate but I think to dominate EastConf Bulls need Thomas starting(and Thabo and healthy Noc off bench) to be impact players this year.

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 6, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Memphis reporting Nocioni is staying a Bull

$46 million deal is not real.

Here is the link

http://www.commercialappeal.com/mca/grizzlies/article/0,1426,MCA_475_5617355,00.html

by chgobr on Jul 6, 2007 7:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Terrible

Pax is starting to lose his magic. 7 million for a guy who backs up the best player on the team is nuts no matter how good said backup is. Also that same trib article mentions he is going to use his whole MLE on Joe Smith! Why do Pax and Skiles have man crushes on guys 6'9'' and over who cant score?

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Skiles loves power forwards who can shoot

Rodney Rogers, Googs, Cliff Robinson, Nocioni... the list isn't complete until perimeter bleeder-outer Joe Smith gets signed.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 9:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lose his magic?

He did similiar situation with Ben Wallace. Over paid! Joe Smith... no comment. The complete summer of 2006 .. no comment. I've already voiced my view. Pax is a great guy with a really tough job. Yet, I don't believe he every was a great poker player. "Yet, In Pax I Support For Now" (Don't you believe that's Owner J.R. position)

I like Noc, but I like others believe finding playing time for him and developing youngs is a concern. Pax knows he can rebound from this decision, because in a year or so Noc can be traded and his total annual contract value can be matched in a trade. (unlike this base-year trade 1/2 exemption rule) A healthy Noc is a really good player, and has value in this league.

by exult463 on Jul 6, 2007 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Important to point out

that Noc has not "backed-up" the Bulls best player the last 3 years, but mainly played along side him because we haven't had squat at the 4. The guy has averaged 26 minutes in his NBA career. I'd like to think and pray that TT will be the guy and he needs his minutes, but let's not annoint him the thrown just yet.

While looking at bad contracts isn't necessary the best track to take, you do have to look at what Carroll, Kapono and Walton just signed for. I'm of the opinion (knowing that others differ) that Noc is much better than all three and if the Pax contract number is correct then you're getting fair value. Unlike the guys above, Noc was developing into a mid-teens points and 6-7 rebound guy. Also, unlike the others, he has put up some huge games over the past 2 years.

When there simply is not a player available RIGHT NOW to trade for (this assumes a sign and trade even works), you can not just let Noc walk when he's getting close to a market rate.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

yeah, you can

There's no reason to make a stop-gap solution a 5 year commitment. Nocioni walking for nothing is better than wasting resources on a bench player.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Again....

without the injury, he has not been a bench player. I don't quite get, "stop-gap" solution either. If the Bulls had a couple of superstars then you allot the lion's share to them and surround them with reasonably priced role-players (eg. Spurs). But if you propose letting his production walk - - what's the non-stop-gap solution? Free agency look interesting to you next year? Hope that Pax is the actual Slueth?

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 12:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

then what is Nocioni?

112 of 216 games started, and he isn't better than Luol Deng or Tyrus Thomas. He's a bench player, and was a stop-gap power forward last season. 2008 is a potentially huge free agent year. Nocioni is a league average player, and he can walk and be replaced cheaply. Spending on average players is just dumb.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nice link as it

separates the player and team options for free agents. As the last 2 years have shown, do you really want to bet that teams aren't going to extend their own restricted free agents? Or maybe you're of the opinion that we're getting Duncan, O'Neal or Brand since they are infact unrestricted.

We differ on whether 14 & 6 in 26 minutes is average or not. But if it is average, then please give me that cheap replacement you're suggesting as the contract the Pax is offering probably gets you 20 & 10, right?

Oh, Manu Ginobli is a bench player (must be an Argeninian thing). Averaged 16 points in 27 minutes a game last year. For $9MM this year escalating to $11MM in '09. I thought the Spurs were smart.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'm not speaking to

Nocioni's 14 and 6 (14 and 6 what?). He's played slightly above league average efficiency the last 2 seasons (16.0, 15.6 PER), and has a career 13.9 PER. He's within the ballpark of average, and has shabby +/- ratings every season.

The 2008 free agent class has a lot more potential than the duds for sale this offseason. Pooh-pooh away, but Garnett is likely using his ETO.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

KG's not going to sign for a max deal

anywhere he wants to go. Same for Brand. Nobody is under the cap anymore. If those guys move and they want big money, it will have to be a sign and trade. Noc is a valuable piece in a sign and trade.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and if Deng and BG sign extensions

this year, they kick in before next year's free agency begins.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Nocioni's PER

PER is an interesting tool. Nocioni has posted PERs of 10.08, 16.12 and 15.69. I think you can safely throw out the 1st year, as he was fumbling around trying to adjust to the league. The last two numbers are a better indication of where's he's at right now. And the last number (15.69) might have taken a hit due to his injury. Anyway, a PER of 16.00 or thereabout is slightly above average, as 15.00 is Hollinger's baseline for league average.

But it is just a tool, and sometimes it will miss things you can see with the naked eye. Take Deron Williams for instance. He was rated the 11th best point guard last year. Are there really 10 point guards you'd rather have than him? If you built a team based solely on PER, you'd rather have Calderon, Ford or Atkins. Really?

Another one is Shane Battier; apparently he's the 59th best SF. What was the Olympic Committee thinking?

I would assume the Bulls' brain-trust know Nocioni's limitations full well. But I get the impression they hold him high regard because he's a decent player who brings the requisite intangibles (i.e. grit). I know Matt will hate that last sentence, but I think it's clear they like his approach to the game.

by jamestkirk on Jul 6, 2007 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

the problem with the little things not in PER

is that Nocioni is actually bad at them. He's not smart on defense, doesn't box out to rebound, over-fouls at times, doesn't really see the floor well when he has the ball.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

people hate stats

I used PER to express Nocioni's "average" production. He sounds a lot worse when I go into details.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't hate stats

I like them. They're an important piece of the puzzle, and it's a piece that some of the dumber GMs seem to ignore, bless their hearts. My only point was they sometimes don't tell the whole story. Stats are great, but the game ain't played by robots.

by jamestkirk on Jul 6, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Yeesh

What other stat besides PER could I have used to express Nocioni's overall average production? The game isn't played by robots, thanks.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 4:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

whatever

by jamestkirk on Jul 6, 2007 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Despite his limitations,

Noc is clearly above league average both in terms of PER and PW%. The Bulls should pay Noc because they put three years of development into him. They should get something in return. And as long as he stays relatively healthy, they will either in terms of play or a trade.

Noc is a black hole, but he's an efficient black hole. With the highest TS% on the team up the injury. And he makes quick actions when he gets the ball. He isn't Zach Randolph stalling the offense, while he backs down his defender. He's a flop machine and terrible man defender, who chases pump fakes. But, those flops do lead to creating turnovers. They're not without merit. Is his hustle, grit, and passion worth 7.5 million. No, but his jumpshot and theatrics are.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 12:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Energy

is another thing this team has an abudance of. Pax could have dealt Noce to the Grizzlies for Warrick who could have served as a backup 3 and small ball 4 at a fraction of the price, giving Pax some cap room to get a post scorer.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

You've got to

get off the Warrick thing. Please.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

which post scorer

is he going to get. THERE AREN'T ANY FREE AGENT POST SCORERS.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Flexibility

with the cap is what I would prefer. Though if he were to get the Spurs to give up Scola's rights for the expiring contracts of Krap and Duhon along with a next year's 1st and made the suggested trade with Memphis (the target player makes a mil less than what Noc did last year) he could give him to MLE's to work with. The one from the trades to sign Scola and the real one to target someone with talent unlike the three stooges he is trying to lure with it right now.

by LD9 on Jul 6, 2007 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

what are you talking about

first trading for scola solves the problem. Second, who is the target? wtfu.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 9:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

terrible defender

I think the terrible defender is the post injury nocioni. Hes an above average defender otherwise.

by Sambossanova on Jul 6, 2007 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I said terrible man defender.

His one on one defense isn't great. He's just not quick enough laterally to keep guys in front of him.

His help defense is terrific. That's why he contends for the league lead in charges drawn in under 30 min/g. In the end, help defense is the more important aspect of defense. Particuarly for guys playing the 4 and the 5. So yes, Nocioni is an above-average defender.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hate that kind of help defense

It makes the officials part of the defense, since now it's in their hands whether to make a block/charge call while Nocioni flies backwards into another player's knees.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

3 years of development

and he's only improved on his first season. The Bulls didn't invest that much into him because he was never drafted. His +/- bothers me to no end too. He comes into games and leads slip away even if he's shooting well.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 1:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Noc played in 53 games

last year and was probably hurt for half of them. Saying that he only improved on his 1st season is absurd. But, let's just go with your previous solution - - that Garnett, at the age of 32, will be a Bull next year. Hah!

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

don't be a turd

That's not what I said.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Enought with the feces

references. It's what your insinuated.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no it's not

A replaceable guy like Noce isn't worth paying for, and the Bulls should save the money for someone who is better. I didn't address who should replace him. There are cheaper bench players out there who may produce slightly less, and Nocioni plays too much anyway.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 1:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Well, you're stuck

with him. Also, you can't (you can, but shouldn't) just say that they should save the money and get "someone who is better". Hey, I'm all for that! I don't see that person and to presume that Pax is going to work magic in the near future doesn't seem to fly with me. But that's just me.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it's safe to say

someone who is better than Nocioni will be available in the next 5 years.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ugh. Yes, you're

right and Ben Wallace's contract will be off the books too. When all is said and done, it's a moot point now. Have a good weekend.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Then you trade Noc sometime in the next five years

There isn't going to be any cap room to sign someone deserving of more than the MLE in the next five years, so getting anyone better than Noc will be basically impossible without a trade anyway. 7.5 million isn't untradable by any means. Letting him go for nothing doesn't help the team this year or in the future.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

5 year contracts are untradeable

regardless of the money, even if it's market value.

It's only a good contract if Nocioni exceeds his cost by having a tremendous year (or two) and then that contract is a bargain and desireable again. Otherwise most teams just want contracts that end early.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 6, 2007 2:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually

I think the tide has shifted and teams want players now. The Bulls had expiring deals last season and nobody took the bait. The days of getting a disgruntled player for cheap are over I'm afraid.

And with the 9th pick the Bulls select...

by bullshooter on Jul 6, 2007 9:15 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Now this is small-ball - - -

TT, Noah, Nocioni, Hinrich and Gordon! That should be a perk-you-upper!

by chgobr on Jul 6, 2007 9:50 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

more like a get-me-madder

when Nocioni can't get up and down the floor with that group.

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 9:52 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He doesn't have to make it all

the way down the floor just to the 3-point line.

by Scotter on Jul 6, 2007 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

no

This should be Bulls speed lineup - and could be team of the future. Noah / Thomas may be light to play C but with Deng there is a lot of length and they can all rebound. All 3 just need to continue to get stronger, but that team should be able to run

Noah
Thomas
Deng
Gordon
Hinrich

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 6, 2007 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Just don't let

a strong wind blow through the UC.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That is an exciting line-up...

This is a good day for the Bulls. It doesn't look like Memphis is making them choose between losing a player for nothing or vastly overpaying. Yes, they are giving him a big contract anyway, but that's about a fair deal for a player of his skill level. Al Harrington got somewhere around 4 years, $35M last year, and he and Noc are fairly similar players. We also only know what the Bulls' offer started at...the 10.5% annual raises were assumed...but the Bulls didn't follow that with Kirk and Wallace. Also, Pax probably saved a couple million by "bidding against himself" and going a little higher than the mid-level, because it looks like the Grizzlies aren't even going to give an official offer sheet, since their offer is only a little higher. If Pax had started at 5yr/$30M, then a 5yr/$40M offer sheet would make sense for the Grizzlies. The way it stands, they're not going to tie up their money waiting a week for the Bulls to increase their offer a couple of million, so the Bulls end up paying a little less.

2008/2009 salaries:
Wallace 14.5M
Kirk 10
Tyrus 3.8
Noc 7.5
Sefolosha 2
Griffin 1.7
Noah 3 (est)
Grey 1 (est)
Curry 1 (est)

That's $44.5M for 9 players. By then, the luxury tax should be around $70M. They should be able to sign a guy like Smith to a multi-year deal this year (or a guy like him...I know..."YAY!")....and still be in position to sign BOTH Deng and Gordon and stay under the luxury tax threshold.

by MMP on Jul 6, 2007 1:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

noch

is a bull again the trib posted

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Jul 6, 2007 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

fuck

by hscs on Jul 6, 2007 1:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Next Blog.

by EdNealy on Jul 6, 2007 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Good deal

I like it. He is resigned at a market contract and wasn't lost for nothing. We weren't going to replace him with any free agents, and the sign and trade market seemed limited. Now if we include Noah or Tyrus in a Kobe trade, Nocioni can be a perfect sixth man on that team.

I just hope he's fully healthy.

by nateroth on Jul 6, 2007 1:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs