The East has gotten better, but the Bulls can still be the best
Good for the Celtics in getting KG. There may be some (from what I've read, not many) moans from green-kool-aid nation over ruining 'the future'. But really, they had little future, and not much of a present. My opinion on them going into the season was that they weren't going to play defense and therefore likely wouldn't even be as good as the Wizards. Now, with Garnett, they get that much better as a team defensively (albeit maybe not even average) that I would now consider them officially scary.
Sure, they still have Doc Rivers to screw things up, although with a now vet-laden team I'm assuming his 'coaching' becomes less relevant. And there's no bench (and a lot of faith in a young PG who can't shoot), but finding those guys is the easy part. The difficult task is done in assembling some really good parts, replacing the Ryan Gomes of the world is just an cap exception or two away.
Although as I (and others here) try to emphasize, there's no set way to build a title team. The only sure way is to build a really good team and win a title, and then you make up the rules retroactively that got you there. So instead of comparing this Bulls team or this new Celtics team with past champs, how about against eachother? How about against the rest of the East?
I think the Bulls are the best team in the East. In the coming regular season, anyway.
They were the best in the East last season in terms of point differential, and the two big frontcourt additions of Joe Smith and Joakim Noah should make them better. I also think they'll be less likely for yet another circus trip stumble, with much fewer new players to break in to Skiles-ball(no headbands and lots of kneescrapes and fist pumps, basically). And as I said before last season, they're suited to win a bunch of games just by being deep and relentless. It got them to 49 wins last year even after some bad luck (yes, I'll bang that point differential drum as much as I can), I don't see why they can't be in the mid-50s and take the #1 seed.
That's not what it's all about though, obviously. Regardless of a potentially gaudy record, are they better than Detroit, Cleveland, and now Boston? Even Miami or New Jersey?
Eh, I don't know. But the good thing is that since most of this team is young, none of us really know. I can't even speculate as to what another full season will mean for Tyrus Thomas or Noah, let alone whatever potential leap can occur between Deng and Gordon (or both, if you want to get giddy). Every year Skiles has coached this team, his players and teams have progressed as the season goes along. I look on paper now and foresee a lot of regular season success, but it's that progression that can enable them to win the conference.
And in the 2008 NBA Playoffs, the proof will be in the results. It's not: if the Bulls have more 'superstars' they'll win the East, if they had a 'low post presence' they'll win the East. If they beat the best of the East in 7-game series, then they'll win the East. And then pundits will go into how the 'Bulls way' of building a team is the right way, whatever that means. I suppose that Deng and Gordon are now 'superstars', or that perimeter teams are enough to win, or that simply having the best defense in basketball is enough.
But there is no right way, just the right teams with each their own way. And it's the teams that win, not the strategy of making them. So looking at the teams, who's clearly better than the Bulls? Sure the Bulls have to still beat the Pistons and Cavaliers to prove they're worthy, but I see a conference where all the top teams have a lot to prove. Welcome the Celtics to the contending fray, but don't count out the Bulls ultimately coming out of that scrum.
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Comments
07-08 Season
by stevekerrsfloppyhair on Jul 31, 2007 12:32 AM CDT 0 recs
bulls predictions, media, etc..
That said, I could care less about superstar designations. Deng, hinrich, gordon, and wallace are all very skilled players. Deng and Gordon get noticed more probably because they score more, but all of them bring valuable skills to the table. You add the possible development of thomas, noah, and thabo and you likely have as you mentioned, the top team in the east. In some ways, I am glad the bulls are unpredictable because of their youth. It makes them more exciting (lots of ups and downs). Then again, in my opinion its a bit frustrating and it would be more fun at times to watch kobe dominate or Kevin Garnett control the game.
by Sambossanova on Jul 31, 2007 12:41 AM CDT 0 recs
We kinda had similar thoughts...
http://thankyouisiah.blogspot.com/2007/07/is-three-enough.html
by BenGo07 on Jul 31, 2007 12:42 AM CDT 0 recs
The East
by Mike Aparicio on Jul 31, 2007 12:48 AM CDT 0 recs
Continuity
by bigballa10 on
Jul 31, 2007 11:44 AM CDT
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Toronto Raptors
by Sambossanova on Jul 31, 2007 12:54 AM CDT 0 recs
something about the raptors
You have 3 teams guaranteed of making the playoffs; Chi, Cle, Det
Then you have two teams that should make the playoffs; Bos and Mia
then you have essnetially 8 teams competing for the final three spots; Wsh, Orl, Cha, Mil, NY, NJ, and TOR (with philly, indy, and the hawks being non-contenders). Where does TOR style + talent + chemistry match up with those other 7 teams? I don't know; but I wouldn't be expecting much from the raptors this year. Bosh is amazing, Calderon and Ford are good players, but I think they're one player away from being annual invitees to the playoffs
by milesgmsu on
Jul 31, 2007 10:07 AM CDT
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Cle - 1 injury from lotto
injuries are unpredictable but at least with Bulls depth of players if they lost 1 for stretch they should be able to adjust and stay in race
by NY Chicago Fan on
Jul 31, 2007 11:42 AM CDT
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I concur
Atlantic Division
Toronto - Got dangerous towards the end of last season and played the Bulls very tough before ending up in a terrible playoff matchup for them. Will be a team that has to be taken seriously, but shouldn't get more wins than the Bulls. Bosh is a budding superstar, but the Noah/Smith acquisitions help greatly in dealing with him.
Boston - Major personnel improvements here. But they only get so much by these moves, mainly because they still have one of the most overrated coaches in league history. Yes, even though people are starting to wise up, I still think he's overrated.
New York - Isiah still coaching them? I could stop right there, but... As much as I expect a breakthrough year from Renaldo Balkman, and the fact that they have three strong players in the frontcourt, this team will be like the Westphal era Enver Nuggets on the defensive end.
New Jersey - Seems to me their window has closed, no? They get Nenad back, but their three best players are all in the decline. Plus, VC the year after a new contract - Bulls should have no problem with this team (put Thabo on Kidd and we'll be OK).
Philly - Iguodola is poised for a monster year, but beyond that, I'm not seeing a lot from this team.
Southeast Division
Miami - Over the hill. Wade is one of the top three players in the league, but he can't do it by himself. Shaq is still out of shape, even if he surrounds himself with chubby kids. Bulls will sweep them this year.
Washington - See comments above on the Knicks. Lots of scorers, but a weak front line and porous D means Bulls will have a better record.
Charlotte - Tons of potential here. But not enough to contend yet.
Orlando - Did they improve? Many don't think so, but getting rid of Darko has to have some positive impact. Still not well coached, though.
Atlanta - Will contend with Chicago for "worst Hawks" in professional sports.
Central Division
Milwaukee - Don't sleep on the Bucks. They have a solid roster and were decimated by injuries before going into full-on tank mode. I think they'll be pretty good this year. Not as good as the Bulls, of course.
Cleveland - Are they going to get better? Are they working on anything? Larry Hughes is still the PG, right? With Eric Snow backing him up? LeBron is amazing and all, but I'm not seeing a return trip to the Finals.
Indiana - A complete mess, right? Jermaine O'Neal continues to be the most overrated superstar in the league and they've got little beyond him. Who's coaching them now?
Detroit - Flip Saunders is a pretty good regular season coach. We can all remember how badly he screwed up the playoffs the last two years, but that doesn't apply to this conversation, right? The main thought here - there are a lot of miles on those Piston legs. How will they hold up through another long season with a lousy bench?
Chicago - You've seen my tagline - I think this is the year Deng really takes off. The team is deeper than last year - Hinrich, Gordon, Deng should all improve to some degree (hopefully lots) and Wallace should fit in better on the court. I really felt like last year, his heart was still in Detroit. That should change now with more history on the team. Does he have anything left in the tank? I think so - you see him play live and how much he frustrates opponents. It's a thing of beauty. Tyrus will improve greatly, right? Thabo, too? Noah is a major upgrade from Sweets & Malik.
So, it appears that in total, the East will be much better than last year - yes, that's not saying much. I agree with Matt in that all the teams have flaws. The Bulls have the least (or perhaps most manageable) flaws to contend with. The top seed should be theirs. This year's circus trip will be perhaps the most crucial in Barnum & Baily history... Win at least half the games on that swing, and the Bulls should take the top seed, barring injury.
by corey williams corey benjamin on Jul 31, 2007 2:53 AM CDT 0 recs
Orlando
by corey williams corey benjamin on
Aug 1, 2007 5:24 PM CDT
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Don't forget...
Not many people think long term in the NBA and KG and the Celtics are the hottest thing right now meaning everyone is swept up in printing Finals tickets. Nevermind that the same problem the Bulls would've had is now the Celtics problem...what happens when you have to give Pierce, KG, and Allen a break?
Does a lineup of Rondo, Tony Allen, Wally Z, Scalabrine, and Perkins/Kandi man keep your team competitive enough to not make a huge hole your stars can get out of? Do you play the big three so much during the regular season to avoid using the scrubs that they're worn out by the playoffs? The 400 day break between playoff games not withstanding.
by CubFan81 on Jul 31, 2007 6:58 AM CDT 0 recs
wallly is now
by KT on
Jul 31, 2007 8:01 AM CDT
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Forgot
by CubFan81 on
Jul 31, 2007 8:25 AM CDT
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good, but for how long
without a doubt, the Celts are built to live or die on three players. unfortunately for them, the youngest of these players is 30 and all of them have logged heavy miles carrying teams on their shoulders (particularly, their SG who's one sore knee away from being christened Ray Allen Houston).
After 82 games, who else can help lift this team come playoff time. i know the company-line will be that nobody needs to pick up the slack for KG, Pierce and Allen-Houston.. ...i just disagree. just about any championship team that I can recall had bench players make major contributions in key games. playing the Bulls, who will undoubtedly go after the Celts by running (just like they did with the Heat), the bench will have to make a contribution.
I have to think that, defensively, the Bulls can check at least two of these three. Hinrich better be able handle Allen (considering he's less of a threat to drive than he was 2 years ago) and Tyrus/Deng/Noce should be able to at least trouble Pierce. If so, that puts a lot of responsibility on KG. Granted, he's KG but we should be able to throw a lot of bodies at him on both ends of the floor and run enough that he gets gassed a few games in.
of course, this could all be overly optimistic. but I like our team against the Celts. Especially if Tyrus's mythical 15-foot jump shot becomes reality.
by CookDing on Jul 31, 2007 7:59 AM CDT 0 recs
Snap, Crackle, Pop
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 10:22 PM CDT
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Let's not get ahead of ourselves
This "trade in the works", as I guess I'll call it, eerily sounds similar to the Lakers fiasco of a few years ago. When they tried to piece together an instant contender. Anybody remember when they brought in Malone & Payton? That was a complete disaster. I'm not saying this will have the same result, I'd just be cautious before we label them as contenders just yet.
We have to remember that both Allen & Pierce are coming off of injury seasons. Not only that, but both KG & Allen have to get adjusted to new cities, new teams, new coaches, new systems, new players, new conferences (style of play is important) etc. They're going to need time to gel.
That being said, I believe, as Matt said, the Bulls ARE the team to beat in the East. Last season's playoff standings were:
Detroit
Cleveland
Toronto
Miami
Chicago
New Jersey
Washington
Orlando
So who drops out? Who moves up? Who sneaks in?
As Mike said above, Detroit & Cleveland really haven't done much this offseason to upgrade themselves. I'd maybe throw Washington in there too. But other teams have made lots of improvements, at least on paper. I think it's going to be a grind this season. And if the Bulls aren't the top seed at the end, I'd be surprised.
by ScottieCartwright on Jul 31, 2007 8:49 AM CDT 0 recs
I think ...
by Diabolo on
Jul 31, 2007 9:09 AM CDT
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and lose...
by ScottieCartwright on
Jul 31, 2007 9:23 AM CDT
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malone and payton were 40 and 35
by hscs on
Jul 31, 2007 9:22 AM CDT
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You guys are funny.
Is the pace of the game and the amount of fouls called per game the same in the playoffs as in the regular season?
by tyger1147 on Jul 31, 2007 9:19 AM CDT 0 recs
Hype doesn't mean anything
As for the Bulls, like Matt said they've also improved this offseason after being pretty darn good last season. We can't have any idea how things like chemistry or injuries throughout the East will fall out over the season, and we just saw how oddities in seeding can change the playoffs, so there's hardly any reason to freak out before the season even starts. And I wouldn't want to be following a team that can only win if everyone else sucks, anyway. :)
by wjb1492 on Jul 31, 2007 9:32 AM CDT 0 recs
The Celtics' only problem
by cubbybear on
Jul 31, 2007 2:26 PM CDT
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garnett
by Sambossanova on
Jul 31, 2007 5:33 PM CDT
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P.P.
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 10:18 PM CDT
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Celts
by Option27 on Jul 31, 2007 9:48 AM CDT 0 recs
The Bulls
Chicago- Deepest team in east and hungery
Detriot- Just like every season they have the Vets
Toronto- Nice young team that plays the Bulls well
Boston- Has three all stars now the rest of the team needs work
Orlando- Athletic team
Cleveland-I think they take a big step back
NJ- I think the loss of Mikki Moore could hurt them alot
Miami- Old but has 2 future HOFs/ Or Wiz
Suprise team for the 8th Bobcats/Knicks/Atlanta
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 31, 2007 10:01 AM CDT 0 recs
Agree with the HUNGRY part
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 10:15 PM CDT
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With ESPN it is not just basketball
by SRQman on
Jul 31, 2007 10:20 PM CDT
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Raiding the West
Overall, I think the East will be improved. I think a lot rides on Ben Wallace staying among the best defensive post players in the NBA. If we can keep him playing at a high level, I don't think the team has any weaknesses, as either Deng or Gordon will become the consistent go-to scorer that seems to be the missing piece.
by nateroth on Jul 31, 2007 10:59 AM CDT 0 recs
All those below superstar players
Look at Jermaine O'Neal
by Option27 on
Jul 31, 2007 12:00 PM CDT
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What has J. O'neal done in the East?!
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 10:07 PM CDT
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5 all stars?
Garnett...one of the best players in the league, no doubt
But ray allan is over the hill, J-Rich and Z-bo (much as I love my state boys) have their faults, and neither have been to an ASG, with due reason
Finally Rashard lewis was na all star 2 years ago, as the 12th guy in, and is like a homeless man's t-mac (yes, i stole the homeless man from sportsguy, but it works)
by milesgmsu on
Jul 31, 2007 2:03 PM CDT
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"due reason"
Ray Allen isn't over the hill. He was hurt for almost half of 06-07, but he did score a career best 26.2 PTS/40.
by hscs on
Jul 31, 2007 2:10 PM CDT
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Allen
by NY Chicago Fan on
Jul 31, 2007 3:09 PM CDT
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not all stars
as for j-rich, there's a better case for him to be in the ASG, but injuries have played too large a role in his career. Clearly he's behind AI, t-mac, kobe, nash, parker, deron, paul, smush (hah!). IN terms of wings, he's probably only behind kobe and t-mac; but the west front court is too loaded for him to sneak in as a forward, and the backcourt tends to be heavy on the PGs in the west to dish to the front court; the good 2 guards tend to play in the east
j-rich's only possible claim to an all star season was 05-06 with 23 ppg, 3 dimes, a steal, and 6 boards but 3 tos....not great numbers especially on what was then a terrible team.
His career numbers of 18, 5, and 3 are nothing to sneeze at, but def. not all star #'s
by milesgmsu on
Jul 31, 2007 4:44 PM CDT
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I wouldn't vote for anyone
by hscs on
Jul 31, 2007 5:02 PM CDT
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Ray Allen is
Career Season Averages
Year Team G GS MPG FG% 3P% FT% OFF DEF RPG APG SPG BPG TO PF PPG
96-97 MIL 82 81 30.9 0.430 0.393 0.823 1.2 2.8 4.0 2.6 0.9 0.1 1.82 2.70 13.4
97-98 MIL 82 82 40.1 0.428 0.364 0.875 1.5 3.4 4.9 4.3 1.4 0.2 3.21 3.00 19.5
98-99 MIL 50 50 34.4 0.450 0.356 0.903 1.1 3.1 4.2 3.6 1.1 0.1 2.44 2.30 17.1
99-00 MIL 82 82 37.4 0.455 0.423 0.887 1.0 3.4 4.4 3.8 1.3 0.2 2.23 2.30 22.1
00-01 MIL 82 82 38.2 0.480 0.433 0.888 1.2 4.0 5.2 4.6 1.5 0.2 2.49 2.30 22.0
01-02 MIL 69 67 36.6 0.462 0.434 0.873 1.2 3.3 4.5 3.9 1.3 0.3 2.30 2.30 21.8
02-03 MIL 47 46 35.8 0.437 0.395 0.913 1.0 3.7 4.6 3.5 1.2 0.2 2.49 3.20 21.3
02-03 SEA 29 29 41.3 0.441 0.351 0.920 1.7 3.9 5.6 5.9 1.6 0.1 2.79 2.40 24.5
03-04 SEA 56 56 38.4 0.440 0.392 0.904 1.2 3.9 5.1 4.8 1.3 0.2 2.79 2.40 23.0
04-05 SEA 78 78 39.3 0.428 0.376 0.883 1.0 3.4 4.4 3.7 1.1 0.1 2.19 2.10 23.9
05-06 SEA 78 78 38.7 0.454 0.412 0.903 0.9 3.3 4.3 3.7 1.4 0.2 2.41 1.90 25.1
06-07 SEA 55 55 40.3 0.438 0.372 0.903 1.0 3.5 4.5 4.1 1.5 0.2 2.80 2.10 26.4
Career -- 790 786 37.5 0.446 0.397 0.888 1.2 3.4 4.6 3.9 1.3 0.1 2.46 2.40 21.5
All-Star -- 7 0 20.9 0.381 0.288 0.800 0.7 1.7 2.4 2.6 1.3 0.3 1.57 1.60 13.9
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 9:52 PM CDT
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A few stats
Ray Allen = 45%
* Not very impressive
With all the love Ray Allen gets you would think he would be at least 50%.
by GranvilleWaiters on
Jul 31, 2007 9:58 PM CDT
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East is better now
by nateroth on
Jul 31, 2007 2:31 PM CDT
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Should have said
But the East didn't lose anyone like that to the West, unless you include Iverson.
by nateroth on Jul 31, 2007 11:34 AM CDT 0 recs
true, lots of ways to build a contender
by Fred Manrique on Jul 31, 2007 12:52 PM CDT 0 recs
are you ready to make the choice now?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Jul 31, 2007 1:16 PM CDT
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ben gordon is too short, hinrich is white,
by hscs on
Jul 31, 2007 1:18 PM CDT
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what more do you need to know?
(I'm not considering the rookies to be "core players" at this point.)
by Fred Manrique on
Jul 31, 2007 1:36 PM CDT
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I agree...
While we will see internal improvement, (esp from Deng and Tyrus), I would have preferred a more aggressive approach where we went after KG. Rather than waiting to see how much better we can be next year, I think we should have tried to leapfrog to the top in a more direct way (like Boston is tryign to). Wasn't that the whole idea of stockpiling young assets?? In fact we have the depth that Boston didn't, so if we could have retained Deng and one more core player, we would have had enough supporting talent. Though I do admit I don't know if this was even a possibility in practice, so this is mere conjecture.
by bullsfaninbigapple on
Jul 31, 2007 1:52 PM CDT
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RealGm/ Trib
granted its sam smith
by milesgmsu on
Jul 31, 2007 2:07 PM CDT
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the core
I dont really understand though why everyone here seems to be crowning the bulls as the best team in the east. Way too many unkowns. To say we are going to improve while everyone else isn't is really presumptious. Even detroit might have a real breakout seasn witha surprising stuckey, and maxiel lending them more bench firepower. Kristic was one of the most improved players before he was injured and if starts scoring 18 points a game down low, the nets are a very scary team. Why does everyone here assume that all the competetive teams in the east except the celtics have remained at their current level.
by Sambossanova on
Jul 31, 2007 1:55 PM CDT
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bc
heat downgraded at PG, and got older
cavs did nothing....literally
NJN got older
Tor prolly slipped a little losing Mopete for Kapono
by milesgmsu on
Jul 31, 2007 2:06 PM CDT
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bc
Not that there's anything wrong with that.
by preverbal on
Jul 31, 2007 4:02 PM CDT
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Hollinger qualitative top 5...
"Greg (Dundas, Ontario): How would you rank the top five teams in the East now?
John Hollinger: Too early to say definitely since everyone's still shopping, but off the top of my head, with no numbers to back me up other than my intuition, I'll say Chicago, Cleveland, Boston, Detroit, Toronto."
meh... I'll buy that the first four are compete for homecourt in the last month of the regular season...
by micah on Jul 31, 2007 4:31 PM CDT 0 recs
KG will be on sportscenter at 5.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 31, 2007 5:00 PM CDT 0 recs
Has any team tested the CBA with 3 max players
I'd assumed the CBA (and Max definition) was set up so you couldn't succeed/survive with 3 on a roster, and KG's is extra-max, being "grandfathered in" from earlier! Though they're over, it doesn't seem they'll be punished too severely. If they make the 2nd round, they should see about $6M in extra revenue, I think.
Plenty of good teams have a big three, but none have been/are being as highly compensated as these, right? I don't blame the players when they go for max $$, but as they're signing, they must also realise it limits their team's potential. Obviously, the stars disagree, and I must admit the Celts could make the Finals next year over the winner of the Central. I think this makes for a very interesting test. And Kobe's gotta be going nuts watching.
by marionette on Jul 31, 2007 7:10 PM CDT 0 recs
The Suns may be close
by KT on
Jul 31, 2007 7:12 PM CDT
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The Suns Salary
Marion's making 16.4 mill
Stoudemire 13.7 mil
Nash 11.3 mil
with all three salaries going up in the upcoming years.
http://www.shamsports.com/content/pages/data/salaries/suns.jsp
by KT on
Jul 31, 2007 7:16 PM CDT
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I always find myself
07/08 08/09 09/10 10/11 11/12
Allen $16M $17.4M $18.8M --
Pierce $16.4M $18.1M $19.8M $21.5M
Garnett $22M $24M? ??? ??? ????
Then they pay Perkins $4M or so, Scalabrine $3M or so, and the rest is all rookie contracts. And STILL they'll pay LT!!! Basically, three guys get $20M...and the rest...
Spurs, Suns, and others have a "big 3" that are well compensated, but not like the current Celts. (Marion and Stoudemire top out at $17M, Nash $13M). So this seems an unprecidented situation to me. The ironic thing is, if they succeed, it'll be equally based on role players receiving no hype and little credit.
by marionette on
Aug 1, 2007 3:01 PM CDT
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Okay
by marionette on
Aug 2, 2007 5:55 PM CDT
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Another issue of max contracts
by cubbybear on
Jul 31, 2007 7:50 PM CDT
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This is my point
But I've never been in a position to decide between taking an extra $5M per, or playing with Kobe, Nash, Baby Bulls or whoever gets you a ring. Or driven a Lamborgini at 200mph with my head out the window.
by marionette on
Aug 1, 2007 3:17 PM CDT
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There are limits to trade clauses
by marionette on
Aug 1, 2007 3:22 PM CDT
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