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Joe Smith is a Bull

Cubs-manager-lou-piniella-in-spring-training-2-15-07_tiny by cubbybear on

[I combined the two Joe Smith diaries into one, Vangelis' is after the 'read more'.

I think it's time he (we) got over the #1 pick label, it was like 12 years ago. KC says 'classy veteran', heh. Not sure what to think right now in terms of rotatation and young-guy-burying. I'm just pleased it's a 2-year deal (David Aldridge reports 2yrs/$10m) which is excellently short. -Matt]

Offseason is now effectively over for the Bulls.  Though Billy King reportedly wanted to keep Joe Smith around, we signed him for likely the Mid-Level Exception.

Joe Smith, the former #1 Pick, is considered one of the bigger busts in NBA history.  He went to college in Maryland, and is generally known around the NBA as good guy, as I've heard.

Star-divide

Vangelis:

Excellent video (San Fransisco local TV channel, 9 minutes) with news report, analysis and interviews back from 1995

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EppuEpuYPf4

OK, this guy is not a superstar but will definitely help us a lot.

Pros

  • Unselfish, blue-collar attitude
  • Long reach, athletic
  • Good Rebounding (career average 7, last year 6.2 Vs PJ's 4.8)
  • He CAN score (career average 12.1, last year 8.5 Vs PJ's 6.1). OK he won't be double teamed but he is one of those players that will score against you if you ignore him
  • This is a Skile's type of player, good influence in the locker room, good for the young players (Noah, TT etc.)
  • Free throws (79.4% career)
Cons
  • Not very strong (but who cares when we have Big Ben alongside him?)
  • Perhaps not the great low-post player we were looking for (but watch out for Luol's and TT's development in this area)
Overall, I think this could be a great addition and is certainly an improvement to PJ.

This is a big guy that can run, score and rebound who is pretty decent on D and a genuinely good guy.

If you also add the size that Noah will provide and the improvement of TT and Luol, we could be on to something here...

Vangelis
(the biggest fan of the Bulls in Europe??)

Poll
How happy are you with the Bulls' offseason moves?
Paxson is going down!!!!!!
6 votes
Very Happy
33 votes
Pretty Happy
134 votes
Meh
81 votes
A little dissapointed
24 votes

278 votes | Poll has closed

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

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Sweeeeeet!
who is he? jk well does he own a sky hook? jk well I guess. Joe, his name is Joe. He's bald we need one of them in a uni.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 14, 2007 2:29 AM CDT   0 recs

Oh I jumped the gun
last 2, they have a typo I think. so 26pts and 17pts 11 bounds.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 14, 2007 2:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Still, Smith's April stats aren't bad...
If you look at his season split averages, he averaged 14.5 pts, 9 rebs. His last 5 games? 15.8 and 9.6

http://www.nba.com/playerfile/joe_smith/season_splits.html

In Pax We Trust! DAAA BULLS!

by RingItUp26 on Jul 14, 2007 2:24 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Wow!
<sarcasm> This is the move to put the Bulls over the top! Joe Smith!</sarcasm>

Do we really need him and Nocioni on the same team?

How many minutes does this leave Thomas and Noah?  I could see Skiles using Nocioni a lot as an undersize power forward, I see Wallace getting 30 -35 min, Nocioni getting 20 -25 min, Smith getting 20 - 25 min, so that's 70 - 85 min. There is 96 minutes for the 4 and the 5 so that leaves 26- 11 minutes for Thomas and Noah, possibly up to 36 minutes if Nocioni plays 10 minutes at the 3?  Is that enough burn for our 2 young guys?  

With this signing, Nocioni getting overpaid, and the draft (I'm over this) I have no idea what the hell is going on?

by Wade.Jones on Jul 14, 2007 3:26 AM CDT   0 recs

Yeah!
<sarcasm> Let's go with a complete youth movement and not fillout the roster.

by EdNealy on Jul 14, 2007 12:41 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Does this post mean
That the sarcasm never ends?  ;)

by cubbybear on Jul 15, 2007 2:36 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Consolidation, growth and improvement
What is happening is called consolidation, growth and improvement dude.

What we will see is the same group of players from last year (but vastly improved.. you wait and see Kirk, Luol, TT, BG and Thabo in 2008..)
plus...

more size with the addition of Noah and Joe Smith who whilst not a superstar is an IMPROVEMENT on PJ.

Well done to Pax and Skiles for NOT making any dramatic changes. You do not accumulate all this talent and then let it go before it reaches its peak (Kirk, BG & Luol are still developing and this will only be TT's and Thabo's 2nd year).

The Bulls are already better than they were last year. This team will winn 55+ games next year and will win a Championship in the next 5 years.

Vangelis
(The No 1 fan of the Bulls in Europe??)

by Vangelis on Jul 14, 2007 4:20 AM CDT   0 recs

My question is who is in and who is out?
In

Joe Smith
Noah
Gray
Curry

Out for sure
PJ Brown
Sweetney

Out Maybe
Malik Allen
Andre Barrett

Out partying
Duhon

by boerwinkle on Jul 14, 2007 8:59 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I think Sweets
is in because if he accepts his qualifying offer he will have an expiring contract. I think Gray will be headed to the Energy because there will be no room for him to play. The roster in my opinion on opening day will be:

C: BigBen/Noah/Sweets
PF: Smith/Tyrus/Noc
SF: Deng/Noc/Sef
SG: Gordon/Sef/Curry
PG: Hinrick/Duhon/Curry

13-15: Barrett, Kryapa, Marty

by LD9 on Jul 14, 2007 9:21 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Sweets did not get a qualifying contract
Andre Barrett did though.  And no offer to Marty either.  See the transactions lists at Real GM:

http://www.realgm.com/src_recent_transactions/2007/06/

by KT on Jul 14, 2007 9:33 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

The Southtown guy
needs to do a better job because they reported he did get one. It was mentioned in a previous thread.

by LD9 on Jul 14, 2007 11:17 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

if you're in the NBDL
and 'assigned' by a team, you still have to get a roster spot.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 10:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Forgot about...
Griffin.  He has a guaranteed deal.

by MMP on Jul 14, 2007 10:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

hmmm
Smith/Noah/Gray
Wallace/Thomas/Williams
Deng/Nocioni/Griffin
Gordon/Sefolosha/Cage
Hinrich/Duhon/Curry

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 14, 2007 10:40 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Forgot about Veektor
and i know Joe Smith is taller, but Wallace is the center.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 10:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Smith is more
of a forward than a center, Wallace will still be the starting center.

by bu11s on Jul 14, 2007 10:46 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Right
Other than that, I think he's got it right.  I'm not excited about Joe Smith, but considering what's out there, and that it's only for 2 years at the MLE, it was a good pickup.

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 10:56 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Williams?
Has he been signed?  Do we need him?

by cubbybear on Jul 15, 2007 2:38 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

quick take on the roster
Wallace/Noah/Gray
Smith/Thomas/Khryapa
Deng/Nocioni/Griffin
Gordon/Sefolosha
Hinrich/Duhon/Curry

That's 14 players. They may keep it that way so there's a roster spot open. Or Sweetney can accept his qualifying offer (it's a possibility, I can't see him getting more than that money from another team) which would at least give them expiring contracts.

Expiring:
Sweetney: $3.65m
Duhon: $3.25m
Khryapa: $1.93m

(plus the 2nd rounders, and who knows, maybe Griffin's last year isn't guaranteed. That'd be nice)

Why did Nocioni get a 5 year deal again? :)

Either way, this roster is on Skiles now. He's had problems playing the right guys in the past and sticking with the veterans. We'll see how Tyrus/Noah get time and how they use it. They'll be winning a lot, so maybe that'll cure most ills.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 10:55 AM CDT   0 recs

Ben Wallace
The more I look at the roster, salaries, trades possiblities, etc., the more I don't like the Ben Wallace signing.  Nobody else will take him at the salary of a star player.  That bothers me much more than the Nocioni deal (which is not unreasonable in today's NBA).

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:00 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

why
Wallace is loads better and is our starting center, is only signed for 3 more seasons. Noc is for 5.

Yes you can't trade Wallace (maybe in his final year but that's a stretch seeing the past few years of max-contract expirations) but so what he's a very good player and the Bulls need him. They don't need Nocioni nearly as much.

I wouldn't even compare the two contracts but you started it :-p

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

At this point...
calling Wallace a very good player is a bit liberal.  His beastly rebounding and shot blocking games are getting to be few and far between.  But the front loaded contract makes it easier to swallow.  

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:06 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

calling Noc a good player is liberal too
Wallace is so much of a better and smarter defensive player than Nocioni that it's not worth comparing.

Again, I don't see the point in comparing the guys anyway. They're at different levels of pay and play entirely different positions.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Stop!
How about moving on to how Skiles (as you alluded to Matt)gets this team to mesh, because the team is set and the aforementioned players are, SIGNED. Last year's poor start had a lot to do with 8 news guys and of course, the circus trip. I'm encouraged by the continuity this year and think that J. Smith fits right in and is an upgrade to PJ.

by EdNealy on Jul 14, 2007 12:50 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Wallace is slowing down some in raw stats
But his impact on the team as a whole is really why he's here.  He's a stabilizing and mature force on the floor and in the locker room.  The Bulls were better on offensive efficiency this year, as well as defensive efficiency.  That's an impact he had something to do with.  Rebounding gave us quick fast breaks, and he was rarely completely unguarded on offense.  I still think the contract was a bit big, but a sign-and-trade for Bosh-James-Wade in two years(might have the year wrong) might be easier to do if the team gets back a still formidable player in Wallace.  He's not a horrible contract for a team that wants something substantial in return.  And his intangible effects on the team are something we can only guess, but I think he's changed the attitude of the team somewhat for the better.

by cubbybear on Jul 15, 2007 2:42 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

they wont be trading for wallace
they'll be trading for $8M expiration....and we're not going to be able to get wade/bron/bosh in a s & t...we're going to have to throw the moon (is than an expression) at them....

i don't see any superstars of that caliber in a bully uni

by milesgmsu on Jul 16, 2007 10:08 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

on the flip side
I like that two years in a row, Pax has been able to get his main target in free agency.  This is a good team, especially in the East, and only getting better.

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:02 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Oh no
No more washed up veterans for Skiles to over utilize!

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:07 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

heh
I will say that Cliff would fit in the PJ/AntonioDavis mold, but that Joe Smith is far less of a corpse than those guys.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:09 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

the thing is the Bulls
don't need Antonio Davis anymore. Joe Smith is corpsey enough for me.

by hscs on Jul 14, 2007 11:11 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I agree
I brought up those guys as what not to have. I can't even talk myself into giving them the last roster spot because of Skiles' temptations.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:34 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hahah
Can you hustle with a walker?

by cubbybear on Jul 15, 2007 2:44 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

PJ
I felt pretty comfortable with PJ though.  I know Joe Smith is more skilled, but defensively, I'm not sure how well he can guard the stronger PF's.  He's lasted in the league this long though, so I guess he'll be solid enough in that area.

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:15 AM CDT   0 recs

The bigger question is who
else besides Wallace can put a body on someone.  It's not a huge priority in the Bulls defense system.  Quickness is far more important, but sometimes you do need to push a player out of the paint.

by Scotter on Jul 14, 2007 4:32 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I liked PJ too
I personally think he's underappreciated...I thought he was very competent defensively, especially on the ball.  I was happy with his rebounding as well.  Offensively I was comfortable with him taking the 12-15 footers cuz he'd make a lot of them and that is an important element if any offense.

But he was slow-footed and a bit vertically challenged, even at 6' 11".  Didn't have much of a post game, or much of anything else outside of the 15-footer.

IMO, PJ's value was always found in his rebounding, solid on-the-ball defending and ability to establish a very necessary element in the offense.  I haven't seen Joe Smith play all that much during his NBA career, but I hope he brings everything PJ did.  The fact this guy is a better scorer than PJ means little IMO if he can't d-up and rebound like PJ did.  We got dudes who score...but IMO you can't have enough big guys who rebound and play defense at a respectable level.

by Starred4Life on Jul 20, 2007 11:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

In somewhat related news...
Mikki Moore just signed a 3 year $18mil contract according to the Newark Star Ledger (no link, I live in New Jersey).  Again, I'm glad Pax got who he wanted and at reasonable terms (salary + years).

by bigballa10 on Jul 14, 2007 11:21 AM CDT   0 recs

Man, did I put that in the wrong diary.
The team has five guys who can play center and power forward.

They also have two guys who can back up tolerably (gulp!) a 37 mpg SF.

I think this certainly means Aaron Gray isn't going to play much this year.

Minutes to go around:

Center
Wallace - 33; Noah - 10; Smith - 5 = 48
Smith - 15; Thomas - 15; Nocioni - 13; Noah - 5 = 48
Deng - 37; Nocioni - 7; Sefolosha - 4 = 48
Gordon - 35; Duhon - 8; Sefolosha - 5 = 48
Hinrich - 35; Duhon - 8; Sefolosha - 5 = 48

Admittedly they won't equal 48 per position exactly because of the overtimes. But that's a 10-deep rotation. And that's limiting Nocioni to twenty minutes and Duhon to sixteen. Does anyone think that will happen? Noah, Thomas and Sefo only getting ~15 mpg. Where's room for Curry and Gray?

I know it's absolutely impossible to predict playing, especially on a per-minute basis, but I don't think it's crazy to try and guess. Do you think Paxson did something like this? Or did he just say... "I said I wouldn't lose Noce for nothing, and I'm not going to, dammit. Oh wait, I still need a tall power forward."

Man, I kind of/sort of like the Joe Smith signing, but it really does make the Nocioni signing look even worse.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2007 11:32 AM CDT   0 recs

agree on your last point
although the correct answer to 'what happens to hawes and gray?' should always be 'who gives a shit'.

They're roster filler, and hopefully helpful if somebody gets hurt.

We'll see how Skiles handles things, one thing we can count on is that it'll be completely different between the beginning and ends of the season.

For my sanity I'll just fantasize that Tyrus gets all the backup PF minutes.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

heh, hawes
I meant Curry and Gray, obviously.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2007 11:39 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

obviously
you were rooting for hawes to get picked all along and are still upset about it. Its ok.  I sort of did too at times.  

by Sambossanova on Jul 14, 2007 1:58 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I'm with you on this one Matt
Thomas needs to get more minutes than 10 minutes of burn, I also think Noah needs to get his minutes.  I see no problem with having 4 veterns on the floor at all time and for the most part having Noah or Thomas on the floor.  It would let them develop faster and it would improve this team greatly for the run during the playoffs.  

by Wade.Jones on Jul 14, 2007 2:00 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Thomas can play center sometimes
With the dreaded three-guard lineup or with a smaller squad on the floor.

by cubbybear on Jul 15, 2007 2:46 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

PLay Atlanta Hawks style
Tyrus at center, noce at Pf, Deng at Sf, Thabo at SG, and Kirk at PG

Sweet.

by Sambossanova on Jul 15, 2007 3:27 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Good point.
I got caught up too much in the hype. As long as they get PT in the D-League and stay on the team, and have a chance for next year (replacing Duhon and Khryapa, at least), I'm better with it.
Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2007 2:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

My hope with this signing.....
Is that Nocoini gets almost no playing time at PF. I see Joe Smith as being a younger version of PF. (Still very tin man like)

If what is true coming out of the summer league, that Tryus is developing well, he should get 22 minutes a night.

Smith should get about 20 minutes per game, and Nocioni should get about 6 minutes (at PF). I would hate to see Skilles pull a Dusty Baker and play veterns he "likes", b/c they "hustle".

Also, I would like to see Deng get about 38 - 40 minutes a night. Nocioni should be playing 15 minutes a game MAX.

by ScottSkilles Hair on Jul 14, 2007 12:12 PM CDT   0 recs

You're paying
a guy 7 mil a year for 15 min a game. Not gonna happen. He'll play about 25 mpg.

by kingj41 on Jul 14, 2007 1:28 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Hopefully the Bulls are deep enough
to not need Deng playing 40 minutes only a nightly basis.

And I agree that 15 mpg is too little for someone making over $7m a year and Noc is better than that when not plagued by foot problems.

Just like Matt says, teh Internets are serious business!!!1!1!

by Colossus on Jul 14, 2007 2:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Damn it, this means fewer minutes for Tyrus.
We really didn't need Smith. Now he'll be in the game because he "makes good decisions" and "doesn't turn the ball over," meaning Tyrus - the best shot we have for a truly marquee frontline superstar - will be riding the pine.

I wanted Tyrus to at least get 25 MMP this year.  That was still possible when he was only splitting minutes with Noce, but now I can't see it happening. Rather annoying.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 14, 2007 12:14 PM CDT   0 recs

Glass is half full..
I tend to have a little more faith in Skiles. Yes, I hated the excess Duhon and Brown minutes, but have also seen Skiles give big minutes to very young/NBA-inexperienced guys in Hinrich, Deng, Noc and Gordon. I think it's going to be hard to keep TT off the court this year.

by EdNealy on Jul 14, 2007 12:56 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

He had no alternatives back then
all he had was his young players.

by Scotter on Jul 14, 2007 4:35 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I guess
he could have just played the inferior, veteran player back then. My point is that Skiles will put the best player on the floor.  

by EdNealy on Jul 14, 2007 4:59 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

No he won't
Ben Gordon started under a vastly inferior player, Nocioni limped through more minutes than Tyrus Thomas in the playoffs, every time Pargo played, etc.  

by hscs on Jul 14, 2007 5:05 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

whoops
a vastly inferior player started over Gordon.

Skiles plays crap way too much, and it's his biggest fault.

by hscs on Jul 14, 2007 5:06 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yeah, this team
has really underachieved given the rotation. In all seriousness, I get more excited watching TT and Gordon too.

by EdNealy on Jul 15, 2007 11:35 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

whoops
just noticed that I had already mentioned that I didn't like the excess Duhon/Brown minutes in my original post (which you usually don't look at in your efforts to spew vast wisdom) and that the main point is that it will be harder and harder for Skiles not to play the best player.  Heck I'm going to start calling hip hscs (Hot Shit Coach Skiles).

by EdNealy on Jul 15, 2007 11:41 AM CDT to parent up   0 recs

ugh
Ed, you're hitting the post button just like me. Feel free to apply the 'coach' label to yourself too.

by hscs on Jul 15, 2007 12:40 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Nope
Just applying that label to Coach Skiles (might have been more clear had I typed him and not hip).  And I think he's hot shit.

by EdNealy on Jul 15, 2007 5:09 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

I like Skiles, but
he is typically going to play the individual who makes the least number of mistakes. Conservative rotations may, in fact, maximize the chance of winning the game in question, but it isn't the best way to develop young talent or maximize long-term success. So I fear that TT's evolution may be retarded.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 14, 2007 5:17 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Yep
fewer minutes for Tyrus and Noah.  The arteries of our team are getting clogged.  My only hope is that all this "resource acquisition" is prelude to a trade.  Though of course that's the line Isaiah has been giving NYC for the past years, and it hasn't quite panned out....

by Freethefro on Jul 14, 2007 1:21 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Paxson whats Tyrus
to play more, we'll see how Skiles handles it?

by exult463 on Jul 14, 2007 1:12 PM CDT   0 recs

Yes?
Ty only playing 13.5 mpg again would be surprising.  In four games last year as a starter, he averaged 20:18 minutes, 57.1 FG%, 5.8 rebounds, and 7.8 points.

Assuming that Noah, Noc, and Thabo (since Thabo can play the 3 if needed) are good off the bench, I'd rather see Ty start at PF and have Smith come in off the bench.

Just like Matt says, teh Internets are serious business!!!1!1!

by Colossus on Jul 14, 2007 2:10 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Woah
This is what I wake up to?!

I sleep in for one day and all of a sudden, the Bulls make their only free agency move?

Initial thoughts : Thank God it wasn't Mihm.  I'm kinda excited to see what he can bring to this team. This must also mean no more PJ Brown. And for those who think he's going to take major minutes away from Tyrus or Noah, I don't think he will due to his average defense.  Skiles always favors the one eho can play defense

And the contract is pretty good too for a player lke Smith!

Remember a healthy Nocioni, the one you loved.

by Option27 on Jul 14, 2007 1:47 PM CDT   0 recs

off season
There is still the Duhon trade that we are waiting to happen. Frankly if you ask me, they might keep duhon and then try mid season trade.  They will then probably trade one of Khryapa/Sweetney and duhon, maybe smith/noah/tyrus and possibly deng or gordon for real help. That would be a nice combo of rookie contracts, expiring contracts and talent.

by Sambossanova on Jul 14, 2007 2:05 PM CDT   0 recs

That's what I was thinking.
Duhon, Khryapa and Sweetney (if he's still a part of the team) are even more expendable now. You add a contract or a "prospect" or a draft pick to that, and you hav a not-so-horrible expiring package.
Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2007 2:23 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs

Scola
By the way, Scola is coming close to finishing agreement that will pay him 9 million over three years.  A good amount of the first year being set aside for his contract buyout  (reportedly around 3 million) Meanwhile we get old joe for two years at 10 million....erggggh.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/sports/4967808.html

Maddening

by Sambossanova on Jul 14, 2007 2:08 PM CDT   0 recs

I hate Houston even more now.
Just like Matt says, teh Internets are serious business!!!1!1!

by Colossus on Jul 14, 2007 2:12 PM CDT to parent up   0 recs