Oh no, no no no.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 8:28 AM CDT in News

I'm more or less over the Scola non-acquisition already. If the Spurs wanted immediate (not after this season) salary relief the Bulls couldn't match what Houston offered.

But where did this article come from? All indications were that Chairman Jerry were fine paying the luxury tax if it was for a contender. Now KC Johnson states a contradictory speculation nearly as fact:

As badly as the Bulls want to add a veteran big man, general manager John Paxson refuses to flirt with luxury-tax territory down the road to do so. With extensions possibly coming up this summer or next for Luol Deng and Ben Gordon, the financial parameters he has discussed with agents for Smith, Moore and Mihm reflect that.

"We're not going to use the exceptions just to use them," Paxson said.

No Pax, that complete fiscal responsibility ship sailed when you paid 35 million to Deng's backup.

If you truly had a no-tax edict from your boss (and that's another topic if true) then the smart thing to do would have been to let sir flops-a-lot go and start using that 'proactive' spirit with your better players.

Here's hoping it's just an excuse not to spend the full MLE on the guys available, although he really doesn't need one.

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That would...

Be a great way to piss me off, and throw all logic, reason, and accountability out the window. You said it well Matt "oh no, no no no."

I'm thrilled, now I can get a jersey with my name on the back!

by SouthSideIrish @ Blog a Bull on Jul 13, 2007 8:44 AM CDT reply actions

Wait

I'm confused . . . so you guys are pissed that Paxson won't spend the full MLE on some sucker like Moore, Smith, or Mihm, but are also pissed that he spent slightly more on a much better player? It's getting hard to keep track of of the various bitternesses on this site.

by Petor on Jul 13, 2007 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions

my point was

if it's the tax that worries you, then 'slightly' more for Nocioni (especially the years) suddenly matters.

I had thought especially after that signing that the Bulls planned on going over the tax after gordon/deng extensions.

I still won't believe any of these guys get the full MLE until I see it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 9:17 AM CDT up reply actions

Mihm wants more

than the full MLE from the Lakers, but if they do that, the end up in Luxury Tax Land. I think they might even with the full MLE.

We may end up with him just because LA won't offer more than anyone else can.

by KT on Jul 13, 2007 9:40 AM CDT up reply actions

Mihm won't get that now

because Fisher's signing used up almost all of the Lakers MLE

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2934966

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 13, 2007 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions

Bynum

And it seems lakers are so high on this kid, would think they would want to play him more this year which would leave less room/need for Mihm who missed last season

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 13, 2007 9:48 AM CDT up reply actions

lakers don't need the MLE

to re-sign Mihm, he's their own free agent.

Either way, that may be what Mihm wants, but i'm holding out for a generous 1-year offer with a team option...a 'show me' year from Mihm after surgery.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions

ah, that's right

I forgot about that...and I agree with your "show me year" comment. Anything more than that, won't be too smart.

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 13, 2007 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions

I like the "show me" year.

by chgobr on Jul 13, 2007 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions

Mihm

It seems unless PJ comes back then Bulls definitely need one more player with size to backup Wallace and play some PF. I'm glad Bulls are happy with Gray but is he playing much this year? And Noah still needs to add stregnth and is a rookie so I see Bulls wanting a 1 more vet on bench.

I hope they don't sign I guy like J Smith or M Moore to 3 or more year deal for MLE. I think taking chance at Mihm for smaller ammount is better move if he is healthy. It seems Mihm has some ability to play in league and is at discount now due to past injuries.

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 13, 2007 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions

another reason

to get another PF/C on roster is as much as we like Thomas athletism, he is an injury waiting to happen sometimes and might miss some games. And I like Noc off bench but not as a major player at the PF position

by NY Chicago Fan on Jul 13, 2007 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions

in regards to the title

it's meant to read more like a "oh no you don't" than a Ron Santo "oh no"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 9:35 AM CDT up reply actions

Matt

Don't take everything Pax, or Paxjax for that matter at face value. Are you letting Chitown ghost write this week. What's with everybody turning into a Nancy all of a sudden?

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 13, 2007 9:45 AM CDT reply actions

weren't there enough qualifies in there

to say I didn't know if he was telling the truth?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 9:50 AM CDT up reply actions

The tone of the diary

implied you were inclined to take it at face value. Try not to overreact. It doesn't take that much to open the spigot of ridiculousness here.

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 13, 2007 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions

Wasn't the "over the tax" thing...

...about winning the championship. Or, maybe better put, he would be willing to go over it if it was to get the "final piece" for a championship. A Pau Gasol, Kobe Bryant, Kevin Garnett, or even Zach Randolph maybe... but not Moore or Mihm or Smith.

I don't have links to support this, but I thought that's what it was about.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2007 9:53 AM CDT reply actions

article helps Bulls' bargaining position

so it may not be true. The chi press has a history of being the mouthpiece of Bulls' management (see Skiles last contract negotiations). This just shifts the public discussion on the upcoming contracts of Deng and Gordon (and Mihm, Smith, and Moore too) into more favorable terms for Reinsdorf. Because of: (a) Rick Bucher's earlier unsourced and unconfirmed comment that it was Reinsdorf's idea to court and then overpay Ben Wallace, and (b) the Nocioni deal, I think the Bulls will still be willing to go into luxury tax land, despite this speculation.

by GWKD on Jul 13, 2007 10:00 AM CDT reply actions

"The Over the Tax Thing"

I always thought that he when he talked about going ova the luxary tax, that it meant for players outside of the organization.

I can't remember where I saw it, but I'm pretty sure Pax said that if the team kept improving that he and Reinsdorf would have no problem going ova the tax to keep our players

by Ceasaleo on Jul 13, 2007 10:23 AM CDT reply actions

there is a big difference

in entering luxury tax land for Mihm, Moore, or Smith than to get KG or Kobe. I wouldn't over react until tax fears stop us from getting a superstar.

by LD9 on Jul 13, 2007 10:25 AM CDT reply actions

I think that's correct

although I think I'm just bracing myself for a possible upcoming "we never wanted Ben Gordon anyway" campaign next year.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions

wow

could you be a little more pessimistic?

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 13, 2007 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions

this is what happens

when the organization backs up their 'grit is top priority' platitudes with actually applying it with money.

(As you can tell, I'm 'still' not over the Nocioni contract.)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions

Please!

try to get over it. By now you must be able to tell that there are an equal amount of people who are fine with it. Let's call it a "push".

by EdNealy on Jul 13, 2007 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions

When was the last time

Pax was stingy? He gave Chandler 65 million, Big Ben 60 million, Noce 38 million and Kirk 50 million. He WILL pay Ben and Lu. Worst, case, if they want to stay out of the tax region, a sign and trade for one.

I can't wait for summer 2010 when Big ben's contract comes off the books...a FA signing of DWade and a trade of L'il Ben, Tyrus and Noce for Amare. :-)

by DarthSidius on Jul 13, 2007 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions

How do we get into tax territory anyway?

I don't see how we approach the tax unless Gordon and Deng go for more than about $12 million per year. For example, take 2008-09:

Wallace: $14.5 million
Hinrich: $10.0 million
Nocioni: $7.5 million
Tyrus: $3.8 million
Thabo: $2.0 million
Griffin: $1.7 million
Noah: around $3 million
Gray/Curry: around $1 million

That's a total of $43.5 million. If Gordon and Deng sign back-loaded deals as has been projected, let's say Ben goes for $10 million and Deng goes for $12 million in 08-09.

That takes us to $65.5 million. Add another $5 million or so for future draft picks and free agents and let's say we're at $70 million for 08-09.

The tax for next year is $68 million. It increased from last year's $65.4 million. So it would probably be right around that same $70 million mark for 08-09.

We aren't going to be signing any free agents from other teams anyway, so the only way to exceed the tax threshold would be by bringing in future mid-level exception players. If there are any trades, there would be an approximate match of salaries, which I will assume will keep us at the same level of salaries.

Is the concern that we won't have the flexibility to bring in a MLE guy in two or three years? Or is the concern that Gordon and Deng go for $15 million each? That seems high for two potential restricted free agents.

How do you see us getting into luxury tax territory at all?

by nateroth on Jul 13, 2007 10:28 AM CDT reply actions

Paxson doesn't know what Deng and Gordon will go

for eventually. If they don't sign this fall then they'll be on the open market as restricted free agents and they could get a big offer. Until they sign, Paxson doesn't know what the contract situation will really be.

by Scotter on Jul 13, 2007 10:35 AM CDT up reply actions

keep in mind

the problem with restricted FA's is teams needing to have cap space to even make an offer sheet...I'm not about to spend 2 hours researching what teams should be under the cap (I'll wait for an ESPN intern to do that....damn I wish I interned there)

by milesgmsu on Jul 13, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions

Well Dwight Howard just signed

a 5 yr deal for 80 mil which works out to 16/yr. He is a franchise center. Neither Ben, nor Lu are franchise players, and neither are bigs (who ussually get overpaid). So re-signing both for a combined 20-22 million/yr seems realistic.

I think the Pax's point on luxury tax was that he isn't just gonna sign some bum off the street and use the MLE for the sake of using it because of associated luxury tax implications down the road.

by DarthSidius on Jul 13, 2007 10:37 AM CDT up reply actions

That's fine, but look at what Lewis got paid?

He isn't a franchise player. And there are a bunch of other non-franchise players with max contracts. If Luol improves again this season, he could very well get a near max contract offer based on his potential.

by Scotter on Jul 13, 2007 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions

I hope they sign him

before the season. Because if he continues to improve and adds a post game that asking price is gonna jump dramatically.

by kingj41 on Jul 13, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions

I have a feeling about Luol

I think he's going to take slightly less than market value. Always seemed to value other things more than money.

by cubbybear on Jul 13, 2007 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions

he always seems to be charitable

which means he'd want MORE money, right?

(point is, we don't know what Lu 'values')

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions

you beat me to it

exactly what I was going to say. Just because Lu seems like a quiet person and he won the Citizenship award doesn't mean that he won't want a max contract with max money. For all we know he may try to break the bank...it definitely doesn't look like his M.O., but who's to say?

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 13, 2007 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions

and, his charity is not Reinsdorf

by GWKD on Jul 13, 2007 11:53 AM CDT up reply actions

That's why we need to something

before this season. If past is prologue, he improves again this year and we're probably looking at a Lewis type deal. But, maybe the incentive-laden deal with G. Wallace is a better proxy. Different players, but both well-rounded and very similar stats.

by EdNealy on Jul 13, 2007 11:02 AM CDT up reply actions

Max deals go to unrestricted free agents

Unless you are LeBron James. If Deng signs this summer he will be TWO YEARS away from being unrestricted.

Let's say in a few months he gets offered something like five years, $65 million. Back-load the contract so that it goes 11/12/13/14/15 and expires in 2012, when Deng will be 27 years old. He'd be crazy not to sign that deal now. If he waits to become unrestricted, he is under contract for a total of $8 million over the next two years. Sign the deal, and you get $23 million. That's an extra $15 million right now, plus the promise of a huge payday after the deal expires.

If Deng waits to sign a max deal, it will be after 08-09, two long years away, not during this offseason.

by nateroth on Jul 13, 2007 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions

even if he signs an extension now

he's still paid under his rookie contract next year.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions

Yep, you're right

I thought Hinrich made $11 million last season but he was still on his rookie deal. Thanks for the correction.

by nateroth on Jul 13, 2007 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions

It's not a matter of unrestricted/restricted

It's a matter of years of service in the league. That's why Wade, Carmelo, Lebron and Bosh took shorter deals. Their vested years will allow them to break the bank come the end of their extended contracts.

by kingj41 on Jul 13, 2007 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions

Well that

and changes to the CBA...

by kingj41 on Jul 13, 2007 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions

I can't find the link to the article

on some expected CBA changes, but it will be expiring after the 2010-2011 season.
Here is the current Max salary table.

http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#11

by kingj41 on Jul 13, 2007 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions

hey Matt

you just got a plug on orlandomagic.com's webcast of the fourth game of Summer League.

by KT on Jul 13, 2007 11:07 AM CDT reply actions

I heard that too.

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 13, 2007 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions

I heard

that too. They called you "guys" a bunch of Nancy's.

by sue369 on Jul 13, 2007 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions

Thought they said

a bunch of "Sues":)

by EdNealy on Jul 13, 2007 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions

lol

nope

by sue369 on Jul 13, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Hey whats the email address

for these announcers?

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 11:18 AM CDT reply actions

it's

insider@orlandomagic.com

by KT on Jul 13, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Have you listened to even one minute of the

broadcast?

Need new sig

by bullshooter on Jul 13, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions

Im at work

and i keep having to leave the office for a few mins.

Thanks guys

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 11:20 AM CDT reply actions

Gray is missing point blank

that was tough to watch.

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 11:23 AM CDT reply actions

Not a good

game for him today.

by sue369 on Jul 13, 2007 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions

Gray

That the truth

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions

Move the summer league talk

here:

http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/7/13/122953/683

Sorry, but I want to keep this designated for me moaning about Pax and Nocioni

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 11:31 AM CDT reply actions

I am putting this here because it marginally

relates to Nocioni and our PF spot.

I thought these comments from Paxson were interesting:

"The game has gone smaller, obviously," Paxson said. "I'm not worried about who starts. For four years, I've watched Scott use his roster. He never has been afraid to get a lot of guys playing time.

"Tyrus has the ability to impact a game with the minutes he's given. I'm not putting that [starting] expectation on him right now. He's going to have his chance. He just has to work and show the coaches he's ready to play."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-070712bulls,1,6180182.story?coll=chi-sports top-hed

If I were in a skeptical, Mad Matt Beyond Chapudome frame of mind, I might take those quotes as evidence that Nocioni is, in fact, going to start, at least early in the season.

As for the topic de jure of this thread, I just think it is a reflection of the fact that Paxson believes he is already well equipped at PF now that he added another tall body in Noah.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 11:46 AM CDT reply actions

this makes my frame of mind worse

I think starting Tyrus puts less pressure on him.

The best way to use Nocioni is as a chucker off the bench. He's got a very good conversion rate, but he also doesn't pass much (and is, lets face it, kind of 'low basketball IQ' with the ball). That's actually perfect off the bench especially on nights when Ben Gordon is sleeping. I'm a 'hater' but I do appreciate when Noc he is the only guy who has any sense of agressiveness on offense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions

What is the Bulls' projected payroll for next year

when you include the anticipated Nocioni deal?

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 11:58 AM CDT reply actions

it's in this very thread

http://blogabull.com/comments/2007/7/13/92832/2027#19

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 13, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions

Here is a very timely, insightful article

on how to effectively manage the salary cap:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&id=2934997&action=u psell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumnist %3dford_chad%26id%3d2934997

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 1:05 PM CDT reply actions

Noah starting

I think thats what pax is getting at. Noah is his starting PF for next year. Maybe Noc gets starts until after the circus trip or something like that. I don't even see the guys that we are looking at in free agency being an upgrade over Noah.

Looking at minutes from last year:

Noc: 19.7 minutes per game
PJ: 22.8 mpg
Ben: 36.9 mpg
TT: 12.2 mpg

Looking at this I would say Noc stays at 20mpg, Ben at 35mpg, Noah is Going to get the majority of PJ's minutes so 20mpg, and TT would have between 15-20 mins.

Makes sense to me

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 1:20 PM CDT reply actions

Nocioni played 26.5 MPG in 06-07

by hscs on Jul 13, 2007 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions

where did you get those minutes?

They're all wrong.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/2007.html

by hscs on Jul 13, 2007 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions

Why would Noah start over Tyrus?

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions

stats

Got them from bulls.com

Noah would start because he is more ready than TT. TT is lost on the court; Noah knows where to be.

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions

just looked again

Those were the playoff stats I was looking at. There's 10 minutes of my life i'll never get back. What a waste of space I am....

Sorry guys

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions

What?

Noah hasn't even played a minute of summer league ball. How have you concluded that he "knows where to be" or that he is "more ready"?

TT did not look "lost on the court" during the latter half of 2006-2007.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions

More experience

Noah played at a very high level for 2 + years. TT was coming off the bench even when he was at LSU. He just hasn't played as much as Noah, even with his minutes last season. Summer league minutes don't count squat in my book.

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions

college minutes don't mean much either

by hscs on Jul 13, 2007 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions

i've heard it all now

someone who has yet to play a single second in the league has more experience than someone who has played an entire season, including the playoffs???...uhhhh ookkaaayyy

by ScottieCartwright on Jul 13, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions

"Summer league minutes don't count squat

in my book"

Yeah, um, but the 27 minutes that Noah played against Samford or the 24 against North Florida were a true test of skill.

Tyrus has played a season in the friggin' NBA.

Noah will not start over Tyrus this season, barring injury.

by 1958ChiTown on Jul 13, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions

"More experience" that's not only dumb,

but factually wrong. They were both late develpoing high school prospects. Noah and Tyrus started college at the same time. Noah played less than 10 min/g and Tyrus redshirted as a freshmen. Their 2nd year they both went to the Final Four and both played about 25 min/g. Last season Noah played 1032 min and won a final four. Thomas played 1088 min, including 122 in the playoffs, in the freaking NBA. If you believe that Noah has more experience than Tyrus now, then you must believe Dick Vitale whenever he opens his mouth. The very least you could reasonably argue is that it's a draw in terms of experience.

by Scotter on Jul 14, 2007 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions

TT does look lost

Especially on offense. He has a great mentality of putting his head down and getting to the rim, no doubt. But as far as knowing where you are supposed to be in the context of team play he isn't there yet. He looked alot better in the second half of the season but he is still at least another year away from being really productive.

by haze on Jul 13, 2007 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions

Interesting Recap Stats

Tyrus had the highest "Defensive Rating" in the NBA last year(Big Ben 3rd). Which means that when Tyrus is on the floor, the opposing team scores less per possession than with any other player. Deng played the 5th most minutes in the entire league, and Ben Wallace had the second most defensive win shares. I am shocked at Tyrus being that high on statistics at only 19, but with his limited minutes of course scaled stats will favor players that know they won't have a lot of minutes.

Also, Zach Randolph had the 5th highest usage rate in the NBA last year. Anyway, thought some of this was interesting.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/leagues/NBA_2007.html

by cubbybear on Jul 13, 2007 1:38 PM CDT reply actions

The more time passes...

...The more I dislike the Nocioni contract. I like Noce, but I fear that the Chapu signing will turn Pax into a "chump".

Front-loaded contract or not, that's a lot of money and time to lock up a guy you hope ends up being the 1st or 2nd forward off the bench.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Jul 13, 2007 2:10 PM CDT reply actions

It's just that

There isn't anyone out there worth going over the cap!

Remember a healthy Nocioni, the one you loved.

by Option27 on Jul 13, 2007 2:10 PM CDT reply actions

My man Option 27 has it right!

by chgobr on Jul 13, 2007 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions

Yes, indeed!

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Jul 13, 2007 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions

why do you think I haven't made

a comment about it? Cause I knew that! Gosh! I have read like one thing in this thread and that was it.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Jul 13, 2007 5:29 PM CDT up reply actions

lokks really good

http://broadband.nba.com/cc/playa.php?content=video&url=http://boss.streamos.com/wmedia/nba/nbac om/summer_league/hawes_spencer_22pts_070712.asx&video=blank&nbasite=nba

by eross226 on Jul 13, 2007 11:25 PM CDT reply actions

I actually saw that game

live on cable (MSG) during a bout of insomnia. Hawes actually didn't look that good, stat-line regardless. He made a few nice passes but when he was isolated on Randolph he got beat pretty solidly. The majority of his points came on open dunks.

He does have terrific touch from the perimeter though, and his passing is top notch for a big guy.

by Freethefro on Jul 14, 2007 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions

hawes

looks damn good to me but he might be too soft to paly centerbut might be able to mix it up at center. His touch is soft from the outside and the inside. The man has skills.

by Sambossanova on Jul 14, 2007 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions

summer league doesnt show everything

remember, hawes was atrocious in his first SL game

by milesgmsu on Jul 15, 2007 7:47 AM CDT up reply actions

NY Knicks....

...is what the Bulls would look like in 5 yrs if Pax was using exceptions just to use them. We'd have a payroll that would not reflect our record, then when the Bulls started slipping they would not have the flexibility to move players without giving up draft picks and then (like the Knicks) the Bulls would leave themselves open to be taken advantage of. Pax knows what he paid for in Nocioni and he is very cautious with unknown players opting for short contracts to fill needs.

I don't think the Bulls mind going into Luxury Land but they aren't throwing caution to the wind either. They will almost certainly have to shell out big bucks for Gordon and Deng but the year after that Wallace's contract comes off the books and if everyones contract is front loaded we would only be two into Gordons and Dengs contracts before we once again have the cap room to shell out more money to keep Thabo and Thomas. It looks to me like they have a good plan in place.

by LnP77632 on Jul 14, 2007 3:39 PM CDT reply actions