It Just Wasn't Their Time

by Wade.Jones on May 17, 2007 10:42 PM CDT Comment 126 comments

[From the Diaries. Had to get a new post up there since the game thread has kindof gone to hell. I'll probably have more this weekend, but I'll say there's good arguments to be made for both minor and major changes, and each requires a bit of faith (or lack thereof) when evaluating Hinrich/Deng/Gordon. They lost the game and the series because they weren't good enough. Whether they'll be that much better to come isn't a foregone conclusion. 'read more' for the diary -Matt]

I'm throughly disappointed with the way the serious turned out, I was optimistic that the Bulls were the more capable team but I was wrong.

I'm not going to write that we need to trade the whole team, that is just ludicrous, and I wont be comparing Skiles to Collins. (Doug has the balls to have bleach blonde hair, Scott would kick his own ass if his hair was blonde) They just aren't the same coach thats the bottom line.

I agree with Matt that Skiles relies on Duhon and Nocioni way to much. I wanted to punch myself in the head every-time they were on the floor. I've never been this angry over players before but the time for them to move on is now. If Pax is serious about winning a title they need to go. Thats the bottom line. There is no excuse that those two were of the bench before the rooks.

The Bulls need a low post player and we need one soon. Paul Gasol isn't the answer because he doesn't play defense well enough. I would love to get KG but McHale isn't going to trade him. So I really don't know who that leaves the Bulls to pursue, I would love to have AK47 on the team, but they would want to have Noc, who would be a good fit with the Jazz. I really have no idea who else we could seriously get without mortgaging the future. So if you guys have any reasonable Ideas let your voices be heard.

Remember this isn't the end but just the beginning.

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

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Ideally we keep the core 3

...but if we had to give up one, I think it has to be BG. I was really disappointed with him in this series. Obviously we would then need a scoring big man, and our options seem limited with so much money committed to Big Ben.

by bullsfaninbigapple on May 17, 2007 10:45 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I agree

The odd man out in the core is BG if we're going to be pulling any trades. We need a taller 2 guard who isn't such a liability on defense, and more importantly, is much more consistent. It's been a fun season and I like the progess we've made, but Pax needs to make some tough decisions and do what's best for the team.

I love you Ben, you almost make me forget about...tacos.

by eddiew23 on May 17, 2007 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

maybe

I have always been a huge Gordon fan, but he was exposed on defense against the Pistons. I still think we should keep him, because his offensive abilities are very unique, but Billups and Hamilton killed him.

by smegmatic on May 18, 2007 1:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

fine

trade Deng too since he was completely abused by a lesser player in Prince.

Not everyone can be a plus defender on the court. I think Gordon's adequate to be honest, and can usually outscore his opponents. Grooming Thabo as the third guard will help.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

lesser player?

Lets give credit where credit is due. Prince is very talented and one of the harder players to guard in the league.

"Mr. CAPS"

by Knowledge32 on May 18, 2007 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

ha!

You'd think he'd score a lot of points if that was true.

by Paxson Jackson on May 18, 2007 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

That's fine

if you just want to win some games and make the playoffs. Sure, then Gordon outscoring his opponent most nights is acceptable. You're a season ticket holder, right Matt? Is just getting to the second round good enough for you?

If it isn't then the Bulls need to look at upgrading what they have. The two positions where they are weakest are at the 4 with PJ/Noc/Thomas and at the 2 with BG, especially defensively. And since we are going to argue this, 19 pts on 7-18 shooting isn't nearly enough since BG's guy scored 23 on 9-18 in exactly the same amount of minutes. His defense isn't adequate. If you want to go to the next level, you have to be better than adequate.

FEAR THE ROOKIES!

by bullshooter on May 18, 2007 11:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I appreciate the condescension

Or lack of reading comprehension, since you should know that an early exit is not acceptable to me.

Also, I'm only a partial season ticket holder so maybe that's why I'm fine with Gordon on 'most nights', heh.

anyway, my point is that the Bulls can survive with a non-plus defender if he scores like hell, and for that reason I think Gordon is NOT part of the problem. He had a bad series offensively which is more concerning than his poor defense. I think he's gotten better defensively (and, yes, is adequate enough) but due to his height will never be great, and that's fine. Defense in the NBA is a team effort anyway, and you can't just pair up opponents and say one guy outscored the other. If that's the case Luol had a bad night too.

The upgrade at the 4 is a more pressing concern...and I think it's hard to solve both in one move so they should take care of that first. I do agree that if Gordon isn't a true big-time scorer (not just a per-minute one) and also someone who makes his own offense at the end of games then his defensive liabilities make him a net minus. But I'm willing to give him at least another season to figure that out, since I believe he's really close.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Luol didn't have a good night, either

because defense is about not allowing the other guy to take the shot from where he is comfortable. Neither BG nor Deng did that. And both let the Pistons do that to them.

(I was trying to be more rhetorical than condescending.)

FEAR THE ROOKIES!

by bullshooter on May 18, 2007 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

AK47???!!!

Are you joking? He is great at defense at mediocre at mid range jump shots but his salary is insane.

What would hav ebeen amazing is if the bulls had traded for boozer during the summer when everyone was talking about how much he sucked and wouldnt help us and was rumored to be on the trading block.

by Sambossanova on May 17, 2007 11:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

55 wins next year...

...I believe in this team, however it will be constructed next year. I don't really care who is signed, who is traded, who is drafted. (Obviously, I do.)

But I know Deng will back, as will Wallace. Hopefully Thomas, too. If those three come back, and work as hard as I can only imagine, they'll be the best team in the East next year.

I hated this "it's a learning experience" bullshit all throughout the game. But in the waning minutes... I couldn't help but buy it; if for no other reason that they will work harder than ever before.

As exciting as this season and even the post-season was, it will be even better next year: 55 wins and the NBA Finals next year... I believe.

History does NOT have to repeat itself. Um... Go BULLS!!!

by tyger1147 on May 17, 2007 11:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

The Bulls are who I thought they were!

I honestly am in pure piss-disapointment over this pathetic drizzle-down-the-leg of a loss. I am not angry at Nocioni or Wallace for playing poorly in this game because they were hurt, but I am extremley mad at Skiles for leaving Nocioni in so much with him playing terrible. Not much choice with Gordon, Hinrich, and Duhon all playing bad because at least one needs to be in at all times.

Scott Skiles lost the Bulls a playoff series. However I did predict Pistons in 6, so I guess I shouldnt be disapointed. My main fear is what seems like the impeding major changes this summer. Because of KG/Gasol, i doubt gordon or deng, nocioni, and thomas will be with the team next year. T-Wolves will be pretty good though.

Wallace, Deng, Hinrich, Thomas earing NBA accolades. Thomas, Gordon at All-Star weekend. A sweep of the Champs. One great year.

by hongydraw on May 18, 2007 2:30 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

"Skiles lost the Bulls a playoff series"

oh jeez, no he didn't.

I actually give him a pass for some of the extra Noc minutes because Wallace should've just stayed in traffic last night.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ill chime in too

The core should definetly stay, hinrich, deng and yes even gordon. Each has his weakness, but is also a big factor in the bulls.

Hinrich has to come back with a better shot, he has to be able to hit when hes open. The way he played in game 5 was a great indicator that hinrich can play the point real well. He should be scoring about 18 ppg and getting 8 apg no problem next year.

Deng says he will work on a post game this offseason, i dont see a real need for it, since we should just find a player who can specialize it. I hope he begins to expand his range a bit more and start trying to hit 3s also, also work on his dribbles.

Gordon has shown strides in his defense, and is a mean machine on offense, he just has to learn to not fall down and pace himself. His biggest weakness is his size, theres no way to get around that. Hopefully he will just come back a bit smarter as to not let himself get put in a position where he will commit turnovers.

aside from the big three i am hoping for the rookies to come back, and big ben seems like a gimme.

Tyrus Thomas just needs to work on his overall game, and definetly try to get that shot going for himself. He just needs a little 12 footer to be effective. A few post moves wont hurt either, just study the game of b-ball and get some iq so u dont look so much like a newb out there when the ball is in your hands (and im talking when he has the ball anywhere thats not in the paint)

Thabo Sefolosha is going to be a great role player. I think he is the best person to counter ben gordons weaknesses, and help hinrich work on his shooting weakness. Thabo is big, and can defend. He needs to get the ability to finish at the rim (just dunk that sucker thabo) and work on hitting those 3s.

noch and duhon are gonna be gone i believe. they are great players and have helped this franchise alot in the last few years, but with the two new rookies, the roles are limited for du and noch. Hopefully they can help the bulls out one last time by sacrificing themselves for a low post scorer.

The bulls met the initial expectations, they got past the first round, they proved that the 42 point victory against miami was no fluke, and they established that they very well might be the number 2 best team in the east. I think alot of people will say most likely "if only they had won game 82, they wouldve made it to the conference finals". I say this is true but that easy route would never have taught them anything. THey wouldve beaten the teams they should beat, and probably with alot of trouble. They faced the top two teams in the east, and now know they can take them (yes even detroit can be taken).

the wizards beat chicago in 2005, and now they are one of the teams we can take without problems.
The heat beat chicago in 2006, and now we just sweeped them.
The pistons beat us this year, but next year...

NEXT YEAR!!!!!!!!

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on May 18, 2007 2:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

dont know where else to post this

Here is who I bring back for next year:

Wallace, Hinrich, Nocioni, Deng, Gordon, Duhon, Sefolosha, Thomas.

Now dont yell about Noch and Du. Looks like Thomas is PF now, so Chapu can be an excellent backup 3. If Duhon isnt here, it's gonna be a different backup point gaurd who probably wont be as good. So how about instead of wishing he was out, we just hope he is utilized better and given more appropriate playing time, with him and Sefo each used in situations that call for them.

Spurs vs Pistons....what a pissy finals.

by hongydraw on May 18, 2007 2:38 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I would also like to have PJ Brown back

He'd be awesome off the bench and in spot starting roles, but he'll most likley retire.

Spurs vs Pistons....what a pissy finals.

by hongydraw on May 18, 2007 2:39 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wow

I hope he retires

"Mr. CAPS"

by Knowledge32 on May 18, 2007 9:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I want Antonio Davis back...

Are the second round picks being overlooked? I suppose it's because it's so incredibly hard to project who the Bulls would take combined with the fact that anyone lasting to the second round obviously isn't thought that highly of. But I wonder if the two brought in will be good enough to compete for the spots of Griffin, Khryapa, Sweetney, Barret, etc., but if they would atually be good enough to get 5-10 minutes per game. How worthless was that Griffin signing anyhow?

So, in a total homerific thought, I'd suggest University of Iowa SG Adam Haluska. He was the Big 10's leading scorer, he has a shot that's ready for the NBA right now (having watched him play, he was forced (by being on a bad team) to take a lot of bad shots), he's 6'5", he's much more athletic than he's given credit for (ran a 10.79 in the 100 meters), and was THE Academic All-American. I won't say he's anything great (it's why he'll be around in the 2nd round, after all), but I think he'd fit in well with this team. I'm sure sue369 would agree. :) (A scouting report) It wouldn't be a pick on potential... but why anyone would draft a late 2nd-rounder for "potential", I have no clue.

All that being said, if someone wants the first of the Bulls two 2nd-round picks for a player that would make the team better, I'd still give it up.

History does NOT have to repeat itself. Um... Go BULLS!!!

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I hope that title was facetious

PJ put in a game last night (and a few this season) that Davis could've never mustered when he was the designated old man of the frontcourt.

I actually think the Griffin signing 'worked out' considering he's buried on the bench anyway and for those spots I'd almost rather have a locker room presence then some dopey 2nd round pick who will be out of the league in a year. I can't believe I just typed that.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:47 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

All 2nd-rounders are out of the league in a year? Didn't know that. And I don't think they'd draft Haluska and then cut Griffin, do you? Wouldn't it be more likely that they might draft a guy, and then... I don't know, see if he can make the team on merits. And then, knowing Skiles... probably have to earn his minutes over Griffin. You don't think that if he ended up playing more than Griffin that it wouldn't be because he "earned it"? Interesting take on that one Matt.

And no, the title wasn't a joke. I want AD back, but not in the PJ Brown role; I want him back in the Adrian Griffin role.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I apologize for the rude reaction...

But you lumped my argument in with every other retard who posted. With the flow of the writing, I could see how that would happen.

It was a thought of a player I thought would be a great fit for this team. But I would never advocate the team cutting Griffin as it was drafting Haluska. I would expect, as I think anyone would, that anyone that is on a Skiles-coached team would have to earn his minutes. If Haluska didn't make it, fine. I'm not going to bitch; I trust Skiles and Paxson's judgment. But I think he would be able to fit in well with this team and would be good as a fifth guard/3-pt "specialist".

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Apologize again...

But you lumped my argument in with every other retard who posted --- that was not intended towards any one poster or group of posters in this thread or any other.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I wasn't specifically against Haluska

But I guess I'm just in more 'big picture' mode right now, and whether the 13th man is a 2nd round pick or a vet (no they won't cut griffin and I didn't mean to say you were implying that) doesn't really matter to me right now.

Also, I know that there are some success stories in the 2nd round but if the Bulls need a rookie 2nd rounder to be in the rotation next year they're in trouble. Skiles does give those guys a chance but that seemed more suitable back in the the Dupree-Shirley-Johnson days, when Skiles just wanted guys who gave a crap.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I was thinking less "in the rotation"...

...and more "specialist." I'm not saying give him 12-15 minutes. (or did I say that?) Anyway, I think he'd be a great "energy" guy that could sprint around on offense for two 3-minute stretches in a game.

He'd be the shooting guard equivalent of Chris Duhon. Someone you could definitely stomach for less than ten minutes a game. A difference maker? Not likely. Someone who won't make you cringe or get antsy when he's giving someone a rest? Definitely. And someone that will also be around (and possibly drafted) about when the Bulls have their two picks in the 2nd round.

It's not like I'm pulling this out of my ass.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Haluska

is the same player as Noc

"Mr. CAPS"

by Knowledge32 on May 18, 2007 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

What the fuck?

That's pretty much the most ridiculous thing I've heard.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

2nd round picks

im a big fan of 2nd round picks for what they can be used for, and not so muhc players. I beleive that if we could package some 2nd rounders for a late first rounder (like the suns) we would be wise to do that....or maybe the 2 2nd rounders in order to save a player like noch or duh (who each have their role)

Finally, i'll take the coaches and players word on the role of AG....but to me it seems like $3m flushed down the toilet

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

so basically

you want the whole team back.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls need some new blood

Keeping Noc, PJ, & Duhon only takes time away from Tyrus & Thabo.

Is it me or does Lebron walk like a duck?!

by GranvilleWaiters on May 18, 2007 1:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i want pj or AD back

as a coach on the team or as a player coach - peej has shown he still has some life in those legs

but let's be honest; aside from the 2nd half, its pretty hard to go out on a higher note than peej did with that first half

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

DUHON?!

what has duhon done to justify being on next years team? oh wait, his 38% career shooting? or his terrible telegraphed passing?

Is it me or does Lebron walk like a duck?!

by GranvilleWaiters on May 18, 2007 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or is it

his very good defense, often being given more insane assignments than kirk

or would it be his continual playing throughout pain without bitching

or is it his ability to hit critical shots

or is it his insane ability to play the first game of the season (2 triple doubles over the past 2 years...ignoring the throaway to bibby, but we never would have been in it wihtout him)

or is it the fact that hes pretty much the best true backup PG in the league.

Let's be honest; we're spoiled that we have one of the best pg's int he league in the cap'n, so duh doesn't look nearly as impressive. But Duh is the best option, at this point, for a backup PG. Many teams would die to have a player like that (perhaps the lakers most importnatly)

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Can't Wait Til Next Year!!

I'm not dissappointed with the loss, I was immediately after the game, but a night to sleep on it helped me out. We're a good young team, that pushed very possibly this year's NBA Champion to the edge. I know each one of those missed j's and turnovers in the 2nd half ate them up,u could see it. They will come back hungrier and better, I hope Pax doesn't blow up the squad for Gasol or Garnett. I'd be willing to part with Noc and/or Duhon, but only for legit post help.

There are really no Free Agents out there that can really be of any service to us. Think Orlando goes for a Darko for Noc and Duhon trade?

Please someone try to talk PJ into one more year, make sure he knows he could get that trip to the Finals with us. And let's keep that lottery pick, please let us pull a Knicks circa '85.

by Ceasaleo on May 18, 2007 8:39 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Fuckin A

Well if I have to read about overhauling this whole team this off-season here, I might as well stop reading. For Christ's sake, teams take time to grow. I remember way early in the year when Barkley said it best. He said it's just way too hard to jump from losing in the first round to being title contenders.

This is so true. Ride this wave out and just be patient. Lots of good have come out of this season. Look back and appreciate it rather than hate it.

The only Yi Jianlian fan here

by Option27 on May 18, 2007 10:32 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I disagree

If that were the case the Bulls would've just kept Chandler and sat on their hands.

If there's a clear upgrade this offseason you make it, I don't think the conference is going to fall to the Bulls as the Pistons get older. There's still LeBron, Wade, Howard, Bosh/Bargani, and of course Gerald Green.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:44 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not only that . . .

But hell, if a team like Milwaukee ends up with Oden or Durant, they could be dangerous next year too. Pax can't assume that the East is going to be terrible forever.

by Big D on May 18, 2007 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't too clear

I didn't mean keep this exact team intact. I meant keeping the core in tact and adding the necessary pieces without blowing it up.

The only Yi Jianlian fan here

by Option27 on May 18, 2007 11:43 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i disagree

lets look at the playoff teams

Det: not getting any better or any younger; this is porbably their last true shot at a title

cle: unless bron gets some help, hes out in 2 years, and the cavs dont have money or high picks

tor: a good up and coming team, but part of me wonders how much garbajosa, parker, and calderon will be able to replicate

mia: wades in the same spot wiht shaq....way too old, not high picks, and no cap room

njn: see detroit; and maybe getting blown up

wsh: no defense, terrible draft history, no salary cap, caron butler isnt nearly as good, guys might not be the same after serious injuries, and they have deshaun stevenson

orl: lots of good young pieces, but if they sign VC they'll be a pereniall 2nd round loser and have no cap room, and if they dont they wont scare the bulls next year...remember no pick this year

as for teams that missed the playoffs, only MIlwaukee scares me...if they can stay healthy theres alot of talent there plus cap room (maybe bilups), and a great pick

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The problem

with being patient (and at the risk of getting overbearing and philosophical) is that the sports media has become such an instant-reaction to games that the only way that most people know how to react is to overreact. It took Jordan how many years to win his first title? In this day and age, they probably would have dismantled the team twice or thrice, simply because the summer is a long time, and sportswriters need something to scream at each other about on television.

I agree with the need for patience. Make some moves, obviously, but don't trade the whole team away. Maybe it's next year, maybe it's further down the road. Gordon, Deng, Hinrich and Wallace will do something truly special, someday.

If there are problems in this world that jumping can solve, Tyrus Thomas will solve them. (Truehoop)

by Chalkwhite on May 18, 2007 10:45 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

another problem

with 'sports media' today is that everything gets compared to the past with no rhyme or reason.

Like, for instance, comparing this team with a team with Michael 'freaking' Jordan.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 10:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

funny

that is dumb to compare these Pistons/Bulls to old Pistons/Bulls. MJ and Pip and Isiah were better then any of the players on current Bulls or Pistons and I think most would pick those teams in prime over the current teams.

Watching game last night I think the Bulls major issue is lacking the 1 or 2 players that can be counted on to make a big offensive play. The assumption all year by some people was that Gordon is that player but in playoffs he has not been that at all. (against Miami he got shots in rhythm of offensive ball movement and against poor defenders) The pistons exposed the Bulls lack of "go to guy" or "go to play" in tight situations. I don't want to argue that the Bulls need an "All-Star" but a better arguement is probably last night shows why none of Bulls were All-Stars.

by NY Chicago Fan on May 18, 2007 1:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It's not just "sports" media...

FEAR THE ROOKIES!

by bullshooter on May 18, 2007 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

there's always the nfl draft

cuz it matters

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Summer Trades _Draft

Unless someone really crucial (Garnett or Gasol or well thats about it...) I dont think the bulls should trade thomas or thabo. Give them the summer to work on the game and see if they progress. If not trade on or both in mid season . Until then they should just find a PJ Brown replacement with a bit more inside scoring swagger. Could be adressed in the draft.

Now, I am not a math major but even though our percentage of landing a number one pick sucks, isnt our percentage of landing the #2 or #3 pick slightly increased to somewhere like 5 percent? Whats the overall percent change of landing any top three picks. By the way, i really hate eddy curry for winning that last knicks game and dropping us from 5 to 9...DAMN IT. That last day of the season really sucked. The nets lose and knicks beating the bobcats.

by Sambossanova on May 18, 2007 11:00 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Figure a 6-7% probability of getting in the top 3

You do need a mathmatician to figure all the premutations but if we don't get the first pick our chance of getting the 2nd pick does increase.

If Memphis gets the first pick our probability of getting the second rises to 2.53%.

All in all the probability is somewhere between 6-7% of being in the top 5.

There is also a greater than 15% probability we will end up picking 10th or 11th.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on May 18, 2007 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Error

That should be top 3 not top 5.
We can't be 4th or 5th.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on May 18, 2007 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

If Deng develops a post up game....

We won't need a low post scorer. Deng could up his average to 25 ppg next year with low post and the added free throws. He could be a superstar.

Basically, all we need is more Thabo, more Tyrus, get rid of Duhon, and fewer minutes for Nocioni. I don't think you completely get rid of Nocioni, because when healthy, he is a great scorer. Duhon needs to go. I wouldn't be averse to bringing back PJ either, as he would be a great mentor and teacher for whatever big we draft.

With more time together, this team could be in the finals next year. Gordon, Deng, Thabo, and Tyrus should all keep improving.

by PGHcager on May 18, 2007 11:20 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

For me, the 'Deng at the 4' idea

took a major hit last night. He was abused by a twig, and it may be several years until he's strong enough to stay in the post.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Wait, why does he have to be a 4 to post up?

He can post up 3s. Billups posts up guards. You need a consistent low post scorer. Who said it had to be a 4 or a 5? Marc Jackson made a living in the post as a guard. Spread the floor, let Deng post up 3s, let him score or dish it if they double off a guard to take it out of his hands.

by PGHcager on May 18, 2007 11:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I think the main idea is

if Prince can back Deng down, don't bother with the "if" on his post-up game.

by Paxson Jackson on May 18, 2007 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

dammit

I screwed that up. Regardless, Deng isn't going to be posting anyone up next season.

by Paxson Jackson on May 18, 2007 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd reverse one thought...

get rid of Duhon, and fewer minutes for Nocioni....especially since Nocioni is due for a pay increase (and a contract that may take him past his prime) and Duhon at least has another year left.

Duhon is acceptable (to me anyway) on a 12 minute or less basis. You switch his and Thabo's roles next year (assuming marginal improvement by Thabo) and I'm happy.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 11:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please no more

Garnett or Gasol talk.

Bears moving dynamic Hester to offense!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 18, 2007 11:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Lets Be Realistic

True, it was a tough loss last night, but all in all the bulls still had a great season. Looking ahead, the bulls will more than likely select 9th in the draft which should land them Noah. http://nbadraft.net/admincp/profiles/joakimnoah.html

I think with Noah's length and athleticism, we could really create some good pressing schemes with him at the point of the press. His personality best fits the type of player the bulls want, and he plays hard all of the time. You pick him at 9, and see if you can get some real value for our small backcourt. For the bulls to take that next step, they have to get an established guard over 6'5" that can create his own shot. The league is going away from the traditional center and the bulls could benefit from running 2 big forwards, 2 guards(1 being over 6'5"), and 1 swing player. This allows for speed and transition defense.

I like J. Childress for Atlanta. He's still into his rookie contract, so the bulls could trade Duhon for him and not worry about having him locked up for 5 years. He will be a great defensive asset to this team. At 6'8" he can guard 1-3, and does not settle for the jumpshot. He attacks the basket and gets to the free throw line. He's a Stanford kid so I think he has good character as well. If we can get Solomon Jones, we should take him as well. Another big kid at 6'11" that can score with his back to the basket and has a good face up game. As and early wish list, I like this lineup; Kirk or Ben (next year by the post-season we cant be starting them both together), Childress, Deng, Thomas, Wallace.

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:02 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Trade

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2377~2435~2373~3010&teams=1~1~4~4

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't see why Atlanta would want that...

...they already have Lou. And if they're statistically-inclined, they'll easily see it's a net-loss.

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on May 18, 2007 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

i think atl would want du

When they signed Joe Johnson to that huge contract, the hope was that he could play the point. They soon found out that he is better at the 2. They have been looking for a steady point guard for the last 3 seasons, and Duhon would be an improvement over Lou.

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that'd be a pretty good trade.

FEAR THE ROOKIES!

by bullshooter on May 18, 2007 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

it clearly shows they know they need a pg

with their drafting habits of the past few years

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NO NOT NOAH!

by SRQman on May 18, 2007 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

He's Raw

But I think he can contribute right away because he hustles all the time. In the NBA when you dont have the skill, you have to give 200% and thats what I expect from Noah

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I'd prefer

someone who didn't NEED to give 200% because he actually had, oh I don't know, some talent?

Plus, Noah has a ponytail. I can barely deal with Wallace's hair.

If there are problems in this world that jumping can solve, Tyrus Thomas will solve them. (Truehoop)

by Chalkwhite on May 18, 2007 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I have no problem with afro-questioning,

but there is an argument for it being awesome. No one is praising the aesthetics of the male pony tail.

by Paxson Jackson on May 18, 2007 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

that was my reaction too, flabull.

If they draft Noah I may have to start buying into the 'Pax and Skiles don't like talent but just guys who try hard' theory.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

HAHAHAHA

Bears moving dynamic Hester to offense!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 19, 2007 2:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

or we could

not draft the leagues ugliest player, with one of the ugliest jump shots, whose sure to be a disapointment; honestly have you seen him play...he doesn't fit

plus Phx is supposedly in love with him...perhaps if we land top 3 we can trade with phx for amare for noah and some other sutff (just thinking off the top of my head)

i'm not high on cildress; isn't he injury prone? furthermore it seems like hes not a great decision maker, and not a great scorer. Furthermore, where does he fit in the rotation? Finally, im always nervous of hawks players...something about that town with its sports teams (heatly, vick, etc.) and especially the hakws....

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Also, Ben was a letdown

I have to say that I expected more from Big Ben. At times it seemed that he just didnt have the desire to win. If he doesnt get it together, we should trade him as well.

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

I'd only draft Noah

as a replacement for Wallace, and only if we had two picks in the top ten and already used one of them.

FEAR THE ROOKIES!

by bullshooter on May 18, 2007 12:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Ok

Lets assume the bulls only get 1 pick in the top ten, and its after 5, who would you select?

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Conley

We don't need a point guard but Gordon or Hinrich are good trade bait. Milwakee might have a chance at Oden and if they get him they'll probably trade Bogut. We have 3 PGs for them to choose from plus auxillary players (Nocioni, Khryapa, etc.) and bomm... we have a low post player.

by Kantut on May 18, 2007 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Mike Conley 's not ready to run an NBA team

Conley's listed at 6'1" that's 2 inches shorter than Gordon's listed.

Assuming he's actually that tall he'd still be a major defensive liability. He's a so so shooter at best. Maybe a couple of years down the road he'd be ready but the Bulls are looking at the next 2 years as their window of opportunity.

I can just see Skiles playing Duhon, Gordon & Conley at the same time. Now that's going small.

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on May 18, 2007 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get Conley hype

Maybe it was the system (and Sam Smith has touched on this as well), but Conley did a horrible job of getting Oden the ball.

by Paxson Jackson on May 18, 2007 1:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Conley

would work as a true backup to Kirk at this point. duhon and andre are expendable and should be traded/cut. gordon can be sixth man. Not sure who'll be the starting SG. I'm not sold on Thabo as SG, maybe a SF? As far a Conley is concerned, you'll see this guy is really talented and has exceptional natural point guard skills.

by exult463 on May 18, 2007 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

excuse me if i want more out of a top 10 pick

than a backup pg

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

and every other player in the draft was drafted

and saomeone was holding a gun to deng's head screaming that we draft noah, and that the city of chicago was being held hostage by rogue chechen terrorists screaming that they need to see more floridians on the bulls, but not mike miller, bc hes ugly and over paid

then i would start thinking about drafting noah

by the way; why does florida some to have the players with the ugliest hair.....miller, noah....theres some others im missing....that matt cox or whatever his name was form a few years back

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Game 82

Losing Game 82 was probably the best thing that could have happened for the development of this team. Sweeping the reigning champs and avenging last year's playoff exit and then facing a legitimate title contender like the Pistons was a far greater learning experience than playing against a depleted Wizards team followed by a series against the Nets, which probably could've gone either way considering the Bulls recent lack of success against them.

Sure, the Bulls had an outside chance at winning this series but the Pistons are just a better, more consistent team. The Bulls showed a lot of guts forcing a sixth game when they could have easily packed it in for Game 4.

Pax is obviously not going to stand pat with this squad. He hasn't made a bad move yet (the non-trade for Gasol was probably for the best) so I trust that the team will continue to take strides and go deeper into to the playoffs.

The last game of the Bulls season is always a bitter pill to swallow but I'm happy with the season the Bulls had and looking forward to next. Only four and a half months until training camp opens!

by Mike Aparicio on May 18, 2007 1:28 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

i tend to agree

but for the record, we would have played the nets not the wiz, and if we would have lost to the nets, we all might be screaming for major overhauls (as im sure htey're doing at mavs moneyball)

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

My two cents

I'm not really ready to talk about next year yet. I'm still trying to digest this loss. I feel worlds better about it than the last two years - perhaps because there was at least a sweep of the defending champs, and there certainly wasn't a botched ending to the year like in 2005. I was a zombie for a few days after that gutpunch.

Basically, Detroit played about as well as they can play and the Bulls' open looks didn't fall. Throughout this season, we've seen games where the shots did not go in. The way the team is constructed, we knew that there would be some games like that in the playoffs. That's perhaps the biggest reason why this team in particular can't spot anyone a 3-0 lead. To need four straight wins is pretty much a gamble.

At halftime, I was nervously excited. I realized that since PJ had scored 20, we were kind of lucky and kind of playing with the house's money. I think we all knew that PJ wasn't going to put up a big second half, too, but I figured that the other guys would pick it up. They kind of did, but not enough...

I'm pretty disappointed in Ben Wallace's play last night, but if he was injured, then I can't fault him. I was growing a bit tired of his buddy-buddy thing with the Pistons before the game. He came up very short - I have to think he was really hurting and not emtionally conflicted or anything like that.

Matt is on fire in here today! Love it.

Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on May 18, 2007 1:56 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

This sucks

This series has me thinking like the Cub fan that I am. Next year, next year. I'm not used to saying this until autumn and the Cubs are playing themselves out of the playoffs. But this time there is some truth to it. Even with no changes, we will be better next year and I know Pax will do something smart with the Draft and free agents.

It's sad that it took P.J. Brown scoring 20 in the first half just to keep this game from being a blowout. I'm sure we can count on that happening every game next year too...

by Ditka Fan on May 18, 2007 2:38 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm...

Is there a shot in hell if the Bulls wanted to get Nene?

by jai on May 18, 2007 3:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Nene

Wow.. A nice post player... Denver signed this guy while he was out for a year, Bulls had eyes on a older player in Wallace. Don't see this happening. Denver was screwed with head-case Kenyon Martin. Marcus Camby probably a upgrade over Ben Wallace (at this stage of Wallace career) might be available, but not a strong offensive post player.

by exult463 on May 18, 2007 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

They still have K-Mart!

NeNe would be a good fit. But thats unlikely

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 3:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

highly unlikely

by bu11s on May 18, 2007 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

despite his great playoff effort

It wouldn't shock me if the Nuggets wouldn't mind ridding themselves of Nene's contractual obligation. The problem with that though is the Bulls have to sign/trade Noc which is just another contract they wouldn't want. Unless they think Noc brings defense (teehee), or you can get a 3rd team involved.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on May 18, 2007 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

No more 6th man gordon

Can we stop trying to draw situations for gordon to be the 6th man. He obviously is a starter because he is a good player. i dont understand why so many people are obsessed with the idea of putting ben gordon back to 6th man role. The guy scored 21 points a game?!?!!?!

by Sambossanova on May 18, 2007 4:04 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

the future holds?

Should be an interesting off season...clearly, it would benefit the Bulls to have a low post scorer or true point guard. I think Kirk can handle the responsibilities, but his job would be ten times easier if he had a legitimate threat down low to dump the ball too. That way, he wouldn't have to dribble as much. Not quite sure how we will get the low post threat though...I think BG, Tyrus, and the pick will obviously have to come into play. Perhaps Noc as well in a sign and trade..although the playoffs certainly lowered his value injury or not. I'm excited for the team though..I don't see our nerves bothering nearly as much in the future as they clearly did in this series when things were tight. (aka games 3 and 6) I only hope we become a contender before Lebron gets a real sidekick in Cleveland...that would be devasting to the Bulls for a long time.

by miz-zou..fku on May 18, 2007 4:08 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Low Post at 2 & 3

Guys, we don't need a center to have an established low post game. Look at B. Davis for G.S. Remember the bulls are at their best in transition. If we trade for a center, that may compromise our style of play that makes us effective. We need 1 big guard through trade, and draft one of the bigs in the draft, preferably Noah.

by DannyRange on May 18, 2007 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Preferably Noah???

don't think you understand, HE HAS NO OFFENSIVE GAME! The only offense he generates is off of turnovers and offensive rebounds. Sound like anyone we know?

If there are problems in this world that jumping can solve, Tyrus Thomas will solve them. (Truehoop)

by Chalkwhite on May 18, 2007 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Give Noah a little more credit

Of course I am a born UF fan, and have been for all twenty-one years of my life.

However, after their second national title, it was obvious that - of the starters - Noah had progressed the least from the first championship to the second. Nonetheless, I see him as a solid if unspectacular player in the NBA. Now, Horford and Brewer will be beasts at the next level.

And, with Brewer's length, rebounding, superb lock-down defense, and expanding jump-shot range (he showed some impressive consistency with his 3-ball in the tournament), I think he could work for the Bulls as a 2/3 in some scarily athletic lineups.

Naturally, though, Brewer is not going to still be on the board at #9 . . .

by jpx7 on May 18, 2007 7:25 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

And

Mike Conley, Jr. is pretty mids.

by jpx7 on May 18, 2007 7:29 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Not Noah!!

We need someone with genuine post moves, not someone who tries to compensate by running excitedly up and down the floor.

by bullsfaninbigapple on May 18, 2007 8:30 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Looks like the NBA is steaming towards a

a rematch of the 04 Finals between the Spurs and Detroit, the lowest rated Finals in history.

Woopee. What a treat. NBA execs must be overjoyed.

(And yes, I am still bitter about last night.)

by 1958ChiTown on May 18, 2007 11:26 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Word

I've been talking to friends about this. I don't think I can watch a Spurs-Pistons final. Frankly, the only team left that I can really stand to watch is Utah. If Utah isn't in the finals, my season is ending early.

Such a shame with the Suns.

Its easy -- just win the next game.

by preverbal on May 19, 2007 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Please, Please, Please

let it be Utah.

I'd almost wish the Cavs would beat Detroit (they don't stand a chance) just so we could have a Utah/Cleveland final. If only the no whining rule had been kept up throughout the season. Rasheed and Duncan might have learned to shut up and just play.

by KT on May 19, 2007 6:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

NBA execs must be going crazy

the faovrubale team lost in every matchup

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 2:59 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Offseason goal #1

Don't get Vince Carter. DO NOT sign, trade for, or sign and trade for Vince Carter. Don't even THINK about singing, trading, or sign and trading for Vince Carter. Merely showing interest in this bum sets a team back 10 years.

by vlad001 on May 19, 2007 1:16 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Back ten years?

So we'd be in the offseason going into '97-'98? SWEET!

Rasheed Wallace likes to comment about guys' butts. -"Them butt holes got tighter and TIGHTER."

by NittanyBull on May 19, 2007 9:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

How did the Cavs get thise far?

Oh yeah we lost to NJ. We should be playing the Pistons right now.

Bears moving dynamic Hester to offense!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 19, 2007 2:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

OK

So, let me get this straight....if you'd only defeated New Jersey, you could have knocked off New Jersey in the second round?

If you couldn't beat the Nets in the one regular season game that counted the most, then.....oh, never mind. You'll never understand it anyway.

by The BBC on May 19, 2007 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

poor point

And you've already been corrected.

by Paxson Jackson on May 19, 2007 9:49 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Actually....

I'm not the one who pointed towards the New Jersey loss in this thread. joejoe did.

You are correct....EVERY loss looks big when you lose the 2-seed by one game. But you went into the New Jersey game on April 18th knowing that all you had to do was win and you'll get an easy route to the ECF. And you lost.

That shows me that you weren't ready for the big time anyway.

by The BBC on May 19, 2007 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

uh...

"If you couldn't beat the Nets in the one regular season game that counted the most..."

All the games count the same, and I'm not on the team.

by Paxson Jackson on May 19, 2007 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Uhhhh.....

"How did the Cavs get thise far?

Oh yeah we lost to NJ. We should be playing the Pistons right now."

------------

Just like I said....I didn't mention the Nets in this thread first. Seriously, look up about 5 or 6 inches. joejoe mentioned the Nets first in this thread.

by The BBC on May 19, 2007 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't care what JoeJoe typed

You're arguing the same, stupid point like it actually corrects what JoeJoe said.

by Paxson Jackson on May 19, 2007 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

OK, whatever

Not like it matters anyway. Enjoy the rest of the playoffs.

by The BBC on May 19, 2007 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

It appears that it matters to you

Why even bother? That's a lame knock on Bulls fans too. It's not like the second round is just starting now, and the teams left in the playoffs are the least likeable and least enjoyable group to finish the postseason. Enjoy being a jerk.

by Paxson Jackson on May 20, 2007 8:02 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Awww, poor baby

You need a tissue?

by The BBC on May 20, 2007 8:25 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

FYI

This isn't a message board. Lame insults and posturing are nothing more than spam and clutter.

by Paxson Jackson on May 20, 2007 8:46 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Listen....

You are the one who name-called. I'm not interested in your sanctimonious attitude about it, either.

All I said was that if you had beat New Jersey, you would have had the easier road, and you can't seem to handle it. You keep having this urge to say "nuh-uh!" as if you have to correct everything that doesn't fit into your narrow mold of the world.

by The BBC on May 20, 2007 9:05 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

repeating yourself

doesn't make game 82 any more relevant. No one is going to start talking Cavs either. Time to give it a rest.

by Paxson Jackson on May 20, 2007 9:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Hey dumbass

5 or 6 inches brings me back to your comment...

From Champs to Chumps!

by Goostafer on May 19, 2007 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

LOL

Please tell me you didn't actually measure it.

by The BBC on May 19, 2007 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I didn't have to.

Anyone can see that it's not 5-6 inches.

The Future is bright!

by Goostafer on May 20, 2007 3:24 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

home court

Bears moving dynamic Hester to offense!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 19, 2007 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

wow I can type.

Bears moving dynamic Hester to offense!

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 19, 2007 2:33 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Mikki Moore

What do you think of him as a backup big man? I think he will be a free agent. He has been pretty good for NJ this year.

by bullsfaninbigapple on May 20, 2007 4:43 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

Mikki More

Is awful.

by vlad001 on May 20, 2007 6:23 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed

He is just the energy guy for the nets. We dont need an energy guy, we need a "i can score in the post on a consecutive bases" guy.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on May 20, 2007 9:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

I don't like

him either.

I love this team and next year will be their year.

by sue369 on May 21, 2007 8:04 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

Not so sure

Every time I've seen Mikki Moore play (which has been more than a few times, as I live in Brooklyn), he has been surprisingly effective. I am not by any means suggesting he is the answer to the post-scoring hole in this Bulls team, but if we lose PJ and sign a rookie big, I would not mind having Mikki Moore as the third big in a rotation of Wallace, Rookie, Moore, with TT and Wallace also sharing time at the 4.

Its easy -- just win the next game.

by preverbal on May 21, 2007 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

even more not-so-sure

He might get more than the mid-level exception (which is all the Bulls have), and his high foul rate and shabby rebounding make him strictly a backup.

by Paxson Jackson on May 21, 2007 11:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The core is probably staying

so that leaves Nocioni, Duhon, Thomas, Sefolosha, and the draft pick as the main trading pieces. I just don't know if there is enough there. The worst thing the team can do is nothing.

by vlad001 on May 21, 2007 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

One of the best things the team can do is nothing.

It's alot easier to screw up a team by making trades than it is to make it better. Especially when the team is full of still developing players.

by Scotter on May 21, 2007 7:58 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

few points

you dont blow up this team. they've accomplished far too much in too little time. We're not the nets who havent done anything repeatidly - rather each season has been a growth (even last year), and the team is maturing game by game

that being said, gordon, of the core, is the most expendable; however, we shouldnt trade him. he should be the cheapest to resign of hinrich, deng, and himself; and if he asks alot, we can then trade him. But the pistons are a terrible matchup for gordon; most teams dont have solid 1 2s and 3s; usually we could hide gordon on someone (this is why the nets are such an atrocious matchup for us as well).

finally, had we beaten NJN on the final night, we woudl have had to play nj....not wsh.....which i would have been very nervous about

by milesgmsu on May 21, 2007 3:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

gordon

would look good with a lot of teams. You know what would be pretty crazy...a backcourt of jason kidd/kobebryant/gordon. Bryant playing sf or something. Ahhhhh i dontknow why i thought of that its completely random and dumb. anyways lets hope those ping pong balls fall our way tomorrow night.

by Sambossanova on May 21, 2007 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs

The Lottery

In tonight's lottery the Bulls have the least to lose and the most to gain. Hell, they're not even supposed to have a lottery pick. The Celtics have by far the most to lose. A number 3 pick is a disaster. Bill Simmons calls it a crossroads in the franchise's history. How did such a storied franchise become so pathetic and useless? Probably because they didn't get Duncan.

by vlad001 on May 22, 2007 12:03 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs