Anybody want Game4 tickets?
Man, Sunday's game will be like a freaking wake. I guess I won't have anything better to do...
I watched at a bar tonight so it was tough to get a full gauge of the collapse, but if anything the 2nd half reaffirms what the first two blowouts told us: this team is far far away from contention.
There is no implied destiny involved with these losses. The NBA doesn't work where you lose in the first round a couple years, then the second round a year, and eventually you get to the Finals. It worked that way 20 years ago because they had Michael Jordan. It doesn't work that way for every young team, and the history of the league is littered with abandoned young squads that once had the promise but never made it. The whole situation needs to be re-evaluated, not just because they've lost, but how every time Detroit wanted to put them away they simply did, making this talent gap seem pretty vast. If it takes minor tweaks (plus internal development) or a more thorough overhaul is up to Pax, but we can feel reassured to know that from what he's told the media Pax himself isn't satisfied with this cute fun little team he's assembled.
In comparison to the roster, I don't think the coach is as much of the problem, but for tonight Skiles wasn't part of the solution either. After getting contributions from Tyrus and Thabo in the first half, they were completely benched in the second. Thankfully our man Duh got a DNP tonight, but even with the starters in the game for most of the second half Skiles bizarrely didn't make any substitutions until the lead was slipping away, and only then it was Nocioni (And if this series hasn't proved the need for Noc to go, I don't know what does) who came in after Tyrus was the first big off the bench in the first half. In a series where you're out-manned it takes some risks to try and get an edge, and I think everybody was willing to accept the risk of playing rookies whereas Skiles was hoping just to stick with his guys until the bitter end. It was a play-not-to-lose strategy that can't be used in a game that was firmly in control. They had to make it a blowout in the third so the Pistons would pack it in for the night. Once they were let back into the game it was already lost, because they simply use their possessions better.
But a bigger problem than the frontcourt rotation is their supposed star perimeter players, of whom you can't think leads to a championship after such an abysmal stretch in that half. The problem with 'ball-movement' offense is that it gives the ball opportunity to find the other team. It'd be nice for a few possessions to find one player to give the ball to and just let him create, as in the boring yet effective isolation NBA basketball. I had thought Gordon was the type to be that guy but he's been extremely disappointing all series, and like the rest of the team he had a great first half only to fall back towards mediocrity after that. Perhaps a team better than mediocre can beat most of the teams in the league. But it's not good enough to beat a team playing at an elite level, and while there's incremental success this season it does not imply that the Bulls ever get to that same pinnacle.
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As bad as Duhon has been . . .
by Big D on May 10, 2007 11:47 PM CDT 0 recs
There's a lot of blame to go around
by eddiew23 on May 10, 2007 11:48 PM CDT 0 recs
I wouldn't go that far
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 10, 2007 11:56 PM CDT
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i've often had that thought
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:02 PM CDT
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Blow it up
by Paxson Jackson on May 10, 2007 11:48 PM CDT 0 recs
can't give up Dore
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 10, 2007 11:54 PM CDT
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Ha!
by Big D on
May 10, 2007 11:57 PM CDT
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One more addition
by eddiew23 on
May 10, 2007 11:54 PM CDT
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Don Nelson?
I'm just numb.
by KT on
May 11, 2007 6:36 AM CDT
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well...
by Paxson Jackson on
May 11, 2007 8:36 AM CDT
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This is all I have to say...
Skiles may not have had the best night, but he isn't the reason the Bulls lost, IMO.
The Bulls lost because the vaunted Core went 18 for 53! 18 for 53! Jesus Christ that is terrible. The team scores 30 points in the second half! That's awful! 13 points in the fourth quarter! They shot 33% for the game! I don't know what percentage they shot in the 4th, but I would guess it was less that 15%!
We outrebounded the Pistons by a large margin. We had more O-rebounds. We limited them to 8 or so second chance points, but you can't win if you don't score! And the members of the team who are supposed to provide the bulk of the scoring are Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon. They failed. Miserably.
That's why we lost, IMO.
The Core sucked ass.
I don't if it is because they are inexperienced, because they are young, because they choked under pressure when Detroit made a run, or because they simply are too small and unathletic.
I don't know. But in my eyes, Skiles' strategic decisions were a secondary concern at most.
This falls on Hinrich, Deng, and Gordon.
Maybe they just aren't good enough, especially the fucking guards.
I don't hold myself out as an expert, but the Core blew tonight.
What a sh*tty loss.
Sorry for the rant.
by 1958ChiTown on May 10, 2007 11:58 PM CDT 0 recs
It's always the case
The Bulls best players aren't good enough. It's up to Pax to evauate whether they CAN be, and it's more than just 'well they're young so therefore they'll be fine'.
But one reason to advocate complacency is that they have Tyrus and this lottery pick, and hope that one of those 2 turn out to be studs.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 12:02 AM CDT
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I can't believe that I am going to be watching the
I honestly thought I would still be watching the Bulls in the playoffs after May 22.
I really thought that.
I guess I am a fool.
Fuck.
It's just basketball. Tomorrow my regular life will resume, but right now I feel like I got sucker punched in the face. I didn't see this collapse coming. Losing the series? Sure. But not this.
Seeing Pistons' fans congregate on the concourse and scream "De-Troit Bas-ket-ball" after we were up 19 in the third quarter broke my (fan) spirit.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 12:10 AM CDT
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I actually disagree somewhat
The rest of the team, all 5 of them given Skiles' very short bench tonight, shot roughly the same percentage (.340 for the core vs. .333 for the rest) for 24 total points, had 29 rebounds and 0 assists.
If you just want to look at the 4th quarter shooting percentages and points, I don't think you can fairly lump the core together. Collectively the team shot .160 and had 13 points. Lu was 2-7 for 6 of those points (but missed 3 free throws), Kirk was 2-6 for 5 points, and BG was 0-5 for 0 points. So although shooting poorly, Lu and Kirk shot better than the rest of the team and scored 11 of the team's 13 points in the 4th.
So basically, while I'd agree that everyone shares in the blame on this one, I don't think it's fair to blame everything on the core. Feel free to conclude that there's not a Kobe among them, though.
by wjb1492 on
May 11, 2007 1:08 AM CDT
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12 Assists tells the whole story
by cubbybear on
May 11, 2007 5:13 PM CDT
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as usual, you're half right
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 8:55 AM CDT
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Right dude.
You conveniently ignore the one common thread of all of the losses: poor shooting from the Core. We're 33% for the series. The poor shooting doesn't result from fatigue, IMO, but from the fact that our guards are short and struggle to create shots against the long, athletic zone that detroit was playing. Meanwhile, the zone takes away Deng's slashing game and puts pressure on his weakness, creating his own shots off the dribble.
Baron Davis played over 40 a game against Dallas and he seemed just fine in the 4th quarters.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 11:20 AM CDT
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Go look at the box score
And does Baron Davis play with anywhere near the defensive intensity that the Bulls do?
And don't call me dude, you're not some teenage punk and neither am I.
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 11:35 AM CDT
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you sure about that?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 11:39 AM CDT
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symptons and causes are two different things
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 11:46 AM CDT
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OK.
Skiles may have made errors, no one is denying that, but I think the main culprit is the fact that are players failed to perform. I am not going to give the Core a free pass on the basis of "fatigue." They just didn't play well. That's on them, not Skiles.
JMO.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 11:54 AM CDT
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they lost the game
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 12:02 PM CDT
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I understand that your opinion
My opinion is that they played poorly and shot poorly because they are too short and unathletic to create offense against a focused, longer, more athletic team, especially when that team is playing zone. I think that's why they shot poorly last night and throughout the rest of the series as well (when long minutes were not a factor). I think the guards' lack of size and athleticism, combined with some poor decision making against the zone, accounts for scoring 69 and 71 in two playoff games. I think it also accounts for our series long 33% shooting.
We'll just have to disagree, which is fine.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 12:38 PM CDT
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Funny that they
by sue369 on
May 11, 2007 12:52 PM CDT
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Sue, you are right.
However, it is pretty apparent that the Pistons weren't as focused then as they are now. I guess this is what Matt was alluding to when he wondered if the Bulls had a "playoff gear" or if they were just a pesky regular season team.
I am not having a pity party. I'll be at the UC next year just like I was this year. I'll always support the team, but right now I am trying to engage in a pretty blunt assessment of opur porspects. Not saying my assessment is perfect, just my honest thoughts.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 12:56 PM CDT
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It may be focus
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 1:01 PM CDT
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I guess this could go to Matt too...
I think DET matches up well with teams that have a low post focus because let's be honest, Sheed may be decent on defense but Webber and Dyess aren't all that great down low. All 3 big men constantly get in foul trouble, so a low post presence is what's needed to beat DET. DET aren't world beaters, they can handle teams that run and gun because they have the size and muscle to knock guys off picks, and they slow the tempo down a bit.
I'm surprised CHI hasn't won at least 1 game, because of all the years DET has had moderate success in the playoffs, they've never put together 7 straight solid games. There's always a "Brain fart" game, whereas this postseason they've had 2 "brain fart" halves in different games (Game 3 of both series).
by Boney on
May 11, 2007 2:46 PM CDT
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defensive intentisty
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:09 PM CDT
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hmmm young teams with promise.
young Mavericks Jim Jackson, Mashburn, Kidd.
Orlando Magic Shaq, Penny, Nick Anderson.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 11, 2007 12:00 AM CDT 0 recs
the magic went to a final
you could prolly throw the late 80s early 90s cavs into that mix...same type of team
and the warriors for every year until this one
and the most obvious....2001-2002-2003 bulls
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:14 PM CDT
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Why Duhon didn't play:
According to the Trib, he was benched for missing a film session.
by Big D on May 11, 2007 12:51 AM CDT 0 recs
Wallace was late
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on May 11, 2007 1:12 AM CDT 0 recs
mid 90s atlanta hawks
they even finished with the best record in the East in 93-4
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/ATL/1994.html
they never went anywhere
i see parallels, except Mookie Blalock and Steve Smith were better players than KH and Ben, and Mutumbo was better than Wallace
by fireskiles on May 11, 2007 1:49 AM CDT 0 recs
terrible comparison
by Paxson Jackson on
May 11, 2007 8:40 AM CDT
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Not to be lighthearted
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 9:01 AM CDT
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certainly more interesting than Boney-Vision,
by Paxson Jackson on
May 11, 2007 9:26 AM CDT
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leave the ex-mariner alone
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:16 PM CDT
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You forgot Kevin Willis
In fact, I'm pretty sure Mutumbo was still in Denver then. He was on the Nuggets team with Rodney Rogers, Chris Jackon (Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf), & Laphonso Ellis that was the first 8-seed to knock off a 1-seed (Seattle).
by mdmnd9294 on
May 11, 2007 10:55 AM CDT
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I just followed the link
by Paxson Jackson on
May 11, 2007 11:02 AM CDT
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im an MSU homer
granted nique was out of this world and perenally underrated....and mutombo isnt much better than wallace....and inch for inch and pound for pound id take ben wallace
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:15 PM CDT
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Nocioni...
He'll probably be resigned because Pax loves him and his recent poor play has made him affordable.
by seang03 on May 11, 2007 7:20 AM CDT 0 recs
one positive to come out of last night's game..
by Boney on May 11, 2007 8:45 AM CDT 0 recs
Stop flame-baiting
by Paxson Jackson on
May 11, 2007 8:52 AM CDT
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agreed
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 9:43 AM CDT
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no matter what
Whether I come out here and say "get out the brooms" or "both teams played hard" it gets hammered...
oh well
by Boney on
May 11, 2007 2:48 PM CDT
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poor boner
It's hard to flame-bait and then try and pull back from it right afterwards with more lucid commentary.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 2:58 PM CDT
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All I'm saying is
The coach doesn't match the personnel. The only players on the team that play the defensive style that Skiles wants is Adrian Griffin, Ben Wallace, and Hinrich. Tyrus Thomas is undisciplined still, but he's a rookie. PJ Brown is on his way out of the league. BG can't play defense against bigger guys. Luol is still learning, but he will be great.
If this team wants to be "run and gun" like they were in the MIA series all the time, then hire a coach from the PHO or GS group of coaches. I think Dell Harris would be a good hire for CHI, if you ask me.
by Boney on
May 11, 2007 3:03 PM CDT
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you're just a dude
We're not in the Bulls organization (although I'll try anyway to pass along your advice to Hinrich) and, more importantly, want to talk about the Bulls more than the Pistons.
Seriously, start a blog of your own or something, I can even give you your first post headline: "Dude! Bulls need a Dell"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 3:28 PM CDT
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how about reading what the post says
My reply simply stated the "scheme" doesn't match the personnel outside of Hinrich, Griffin and Ben Wallace.
If the Bulls want to run, hire a coach that has coached in a system that runs. If Paxson (the GM) wants to keep Skiles and his "by the book, wanna-be LarryBrown hardnosed about everything" attitude, then pick up guys like Trenton Hassell, Aaron McKie, George Lynch and Theo Ratliff. There are reasons why guys like Gordon don't play well in Larry Brown or Skiles' systems, they don't fit in it. Skiles system should have one low post player, and one perimeter player. The rest should be serviceable, and solid on defense. They don't rely on their bench all too often, but Ty Thomas and Thabo are a good start. That's how the Skiles and Larry Browns of the world win.
Look at the Spurs... look at the 03-04 Pistons... look at the 00-01 6ers... you'll see the supporting cast is stronger than most teams "big 3". That's why Ben Wallace wanted out of D from last year, he didn't fit in Flip's scheme, and eventually would've been basically no better than Nazr Mohammed.
by Boney on
May 11, 2007 4:09 PM CDT
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why we don't listen to you
We don't sign those guys because we like to, ya know, win and stay under the cap
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:19 PM CDT
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Matt's Right!
by milesgmsu on
May 14, 2007 1:17 PM CDT
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Deng, Gordon, Hinrich - good players- not leaders
Deng got tentative, Gordon reverted to one on one dribbling down the shot clock and Hinrich wouldn't (couldn't) take charge of the offense.
I don't see any of these three being the leader of a top level team. None of them want the job.
by OldeBull on May 11, 2007 9:22 AM CDT 0 recs
leaders and/or 'best' players
I don't think is as much wanting the job as being able to handle it, 'refocusing' the team can be as simple as just giving a guy the ball and know he's going to get somebody (including himself) a good shot. They all completely failed when given this chance in the 2nd half yesterday.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 10:23 AM CDT
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raucous crowd...
by bpa on May 11, 2007 9:31 AM CDT 0 recs
If the writer of that recap happened
The entire 300 section just below the press box was a WWF Smackdown, especially in the 4th quarter. The anger of the crowd was palpable. It got ugly. A lot fights between Bulls fans and Pistons' fans. Thrown beers, the works.
by 1958ChiTown on
May 11, 2007 12:53 PM CDT
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yup
Nonetheless I think there is some hope in the internal development route to the finals. If Thomas steps up his game, - and don't most guys in their second season? - He's going to be a monster to deal with. Not superstar of course but just a pain in the ass matchup for every opponent. This could take just enough pressure off the perimeter guys to give them some breathing room to score in a series like this next year.
by theundergroundman on May 11, 2007 10:01 AM CDT 0 recs
Too short
Most guys at that size succeed at PG, not SG. He's done a great job to get where he is as a SG, but he's not a PG and history shows very few guys that size make that leap to the elite at SG.
I'm not saying this is Ben's fault, by the way. I like Pax's plan, but relying on Gordon to become that guy looks like a mistake.
by mdmnd9294 on
May 11, 2007 11:14 AM CDT
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Simple as this . .
::Simple Fan Talk::
by Option27 on May 11, 2007 10:10 AM CDT 0 recs
LETS GO BULLS
by SRQman on
May 11, 2007 10:24 AM CDT
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I love this team!
by sue369 on
May 11, 2007 10:27 AM CDT
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My thoughts
I thought TT and Thabo should have at least been given a chance to try to bring something in the second half. I think both of them will bring some much needed help next season.
Ben Gordon should never be allowed to dribble the ball. Why does he dribble into the lane where the opponents are at least 5" taller than he is and try to shoot?
I've always been a fan of Nocioni but it's time for him to part company with this team and he can take Duhon with him.
I will be praying like hell that we get what we need in the draft.
by sue369 on May 11, 2007 10:25 AM CDT 0 recs
Noc seems to be hurt pretty badly
According to a source close the situation, the pain and swelling in his strained right foot had worsened to the point that Nocioni began to take anti-inflammatories and painkillers in recent days.
The source said Nocioni would be required to wear a protective boot for 45 days after conclusion of the playoffs. He will be required to stay off the foot for at least 60 days.
by bullshooter on May 11, 2007 10:27 AM CDT 0 recs
That's too bad.
Probably won't be playing for his country this summer.
by sue369 on
May 11, 2007 10:31 AM CDT
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That's on Skiles
Rick Morrisey had a great line today about Skiles sticking with 'his guys':
"Tyrus is a peripheral player for us right now," Skiles said. "He's a good role guy off the bench, but our main guys, I wanted to leave the game in their hands."
You lose Games 1 and 2 by a combined 47 points, your main guys and their hands don't deserve special treatment.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 10:35 AM CDT
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If Tyrus is not a starter by next season I will
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
May 11, 2007 10:42 AM CDT
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back and forth
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 10:42 AM CDT
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well, yeah
I still think he deserves a lot of leeway, far more than sometimes making questionable rotation decisions
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 11:09 AM CDT
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I seem to remember
by bullshooter on
May 11, 2007 11:19 AM CDT
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there's more to coaching than rotations
And also, those decisions even a game like last night are minor compared to the best players not playing well.
He eventually learned that starting Duhon and benching Gordon was a bad idea, I don't see a reason to think that if Tyrus keeps progressing he won't get more minutes as well.
Benching Duh is a plus in his corner too, no doubt :-D
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
May 11, 2007 11:30 AM CDT
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