Forget Pau (for nau), let's talk Gordon

...but I think he's become consistent enough that trading him is a bad idea, unless you're getting a hall of famer.  There will be nights when Ben is simply off his game.  With Nocioni injured, the team probably can't overcome that and victories will be hard, if not impossible to come by.  I don't think he'll ever be a Ray Allen type who can always deliver points somehow.  But that's OK.  If he can do it five times in a seven-game series, chances are the Bulls win, and I think he can do that.

The thing that kills me about Ben are his horrendous turnovers.  He often gets trapped on the sidelines and then just tosses the ball out, leading to a fastbreak for the other team.  Often times, he simply loses his dribble.  But those are things that can be improved with coaching and I don't think he'll continue to have those mistakes at the same rate throughout his career.  His defense has improved this year and will possible get a little better over the next few seasons.

In sum, he's going to have nights here and there where he can not produce.  As long as he shows up in the playoffs and 2/3 of the time in the regular season, I say that's plenty (but not worth a max contract, of course).  I still think that Gasol is being overvalued in the eyes of the league (not that he isn't a very good player, but he's no Garnett).  It seems clear that Memphis will end up trading him, but I don't really see any takers except the Bulls.  Sweat them out and give up no one better than Nocioni.  Or just don't make the deal.  As Matt's Man Sam pointed out the other day, Gasol's contract is a huge burden, and you don't take him unless you can keep your nucleus intact.

I think something to keep in mind with Gordon is that our offense doesn't necessarily flow through him, as it does with most other major scorers. It's a share the ball offense, so that limits Gordon to a certain extent imo (i.e. he's not going to become Gilbert). On top of that, in a share the ball type offense, he's become the primary focus of the defense. It often hasn't led to a spread out defense as it should. Hopefully that will continue to change after the All-Star break with Hinrich and Duhon playing well.
I think Gordon may have become a little too disillusioned on the outset of this road trip that he wasn't getting the same calls from the refs he was at home. I think that affected his game. Refs definitely call games differently on the road. I think he felt it the first few times and instead of forging ahead, it caused him to lapse.
What I'm waiting for is everyone playing well together. I've already seen Gordon carrying the team, I think Hinrich is of late, I'd like to see them all pull it together.

I am a big Bulls and UConn fan.  As such I have seen practically every game that Ben has played since he was 18.  I can say that if Ben had a low post scorer like Emeka Okafor (say, just for the sake of argument, Pau Gasol) he would be damn near unstoppable.  He was a better player his rookie year when he had Curry,who could occupy the paint on offense, than he was last year.  He's made great strides this year, essentially learning to play without a horse down low, but Ben the type of player who needs a low post threat to flourish.  I'm not sure he would score more than 22 a game, but his FG% and assists would rise.  So, lets hope that Paxon gets Pau.  

...the bad FT shooting games for Ben on the swing? I'm sure one of 'em was Sacramento--he was anomalously horrendous that game--but what were the other ones? I'm wondering if there are any similarities between those teams that might account for his lack of FTs. (Big, physical defending guard? Shot blocking presence? etc.)

Also glad to hear you consider Deng, Hinrich and Gordon untouchable in any Gasol deal. I feel much the same, in that getting Gasol while losing any one of them would not necessarily lead to a decisively better team. It seems to me that when all three of them are playing well (like they were last night, and at home against Dallas and San Antonio), this team can play with anyone.

...the bad FT shooting games for Ben on the swing? I'm sure one of 'em was Sacramento--he was anomalously horrendous that game--but what were the other ones? I'm wondering if there are any similarities between those teams that might account for his lack of FTs. (Big, physical defending guard? Shot blocking presence? etc.)

Also glad to hear you consider Deng, Hinrich and Gordon untouchable in any Gasol deal. I feel much the same, in that getting Gasol while losing any one of them would not necessarily lead to a decisively better team. It seems to me that when all three of them are playing well (like they were last night, and at home against Dallas and San Antonio), this team can play with anyone.

That's weak.

with Gordon anymore. The turnovers and occasional spastic dribbling aside, Gordon has a chance to be an even-more prolific scorer going forward. At 23 and in his third season, we've got to be real pleased with his progression and like other Pax-players, he busts his ass in the offseason. His shooting percentage is in line with and his scoring is better than the third year totals of Ray Allen, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Richard Hamilton, Michael Redd, Jerry Stackhouse and Gilbert Arenas. I KNOW that these guards are more versatile and offered a lot more than Gordon, but it's still impressive none-the-less.

Elmcitytree mentioned that this has been done the last season and a half without any low post presence and I tend to agree that this will make Gordon that much more dangerous.

My fingers are crossed that Pax can grab Gasol without relinquishing one of the Big-3, but if it occurs, I think we can refill the small forward slot the quickest (G. Wallace, Carter, R. Lewis and stop-gap players like Mo Pete, G. Mason and G. Hill (short-term deal) are all free agents in '07.

Even without a trade, I wouldn't be surprised to see a 23-24 point a game type of career scorer in Gordon. He's getting 21 in a very low 31 minutes and I've got to think that he'll improve his flaws going forward to grab more game time.

I've been thinking through the trade over and over. It's obvious if Paxson wants him enough, he can get him, but at what cost? We always talk about the big 3 for the Bulls, and if/who we would give up. I want to pose the question, if you were Paxson, what would be your final/best offer for Gasol? Would you even make an offer?

Mine would be Deng, PJ, and 2007 1st round pick. I chose Deng over Gordon for 2 reasons. One, the system we run will benifit Gordon highly, once we get Gasol in the pick and rolls. Two, money. Once we have Gasol and Wallace on the books, it becomes increasely harder to sign guys. I think Gordon will be cheaper than Deng. Also, we have Nocioni, who can play small forward for much cheaper than Deng, but still play very well.

But, I do believe Deng will be the better player in the long run. But, for me its about supporting the system, winning now, and still having good financial health in the future.

Again, what is your best/final offer for Gasol?

would be Noce, PJ, and Ty or Sefo (not both). I'd throw in a Duhon or Sweetney and a post-07 first rounder and take a (ugh) Brian Cardinal, if that's what was needed to get it done, but that's it.

I was talking about this with TYI's CoachSkiles today and he made an excellent point: What other deals are out there for the Grizz? Boston isn't going to give them a shot at both Durant and Oden this year, and only seems willing to give up Gerald Green or Al Jefferson, not both. I'd say neither of those guys have as big an upside as Ty. What other teams are out there and what are they offering? I just don't think the Grizz have a lot of leverage here. They suck with Gasol, he's unhappy, they need to dump salaries and the Bulls are doing well enough without him. We can take or leave Gasol. Can they?

I agree that Al Thornton's super-nice (no small praise from a Gators fan; he KILLED us this year), but I just don't see him on the Bulls (unless they do the unthinkable and trade Deng). I don't expect him to fall too low, but if we could somehow get a top 5 and pick up Al Horford, that would make my year. That dude's EXACTLY what this team needs.

Fan favorite.  "Will Ben shoot any three-pointers tonight Daddy?"  Sure son, he could sink one all the way from our house in Wilmette."

Like Sosa, it's not only about how many runs/points produced, it's also about how many you give up.  Both were/are incomplete players in this regard.  In Ben's case, he is only 23, which means his greatest asset is that his trade value is still very high.

That being said, I don't think the Bulls have to give up Gordon (or Deng or Hinrich) in order to snag Gasol.  The deal could very well get done with Brown, Sweets, Noc, Tyrus and draft pick(s).

What I don't understand is how little some here respect the play and upside of Luol Deng.  If there is one player that shouldn't be included in any deal, it's Deng.  It's bad enough to watch Curry and Chandler highlights on SportsCenter, adding Deng to that would make me cancel my cable.

Chandler highlights on SportsCenter? Hell, I didn't even think they showed Chris Paul highlights.

Noce will definitely be part of this deal..but hopefully im wrong :(