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Bulls fall behind, stay behind, lose

Fits better than the alternative 'furious rally' recap theme, I think.

When 4 of your starters are terrible, and the 5th doesn't get going until down double-digits in the final quarter (that's right, a Kirk Hinrich sighting), you're going to lose.

Ben Wallace played the entire game and had 8 rebounds and no blocks. Maybe this was Skiles' nod to the media after the 'when I play more I play better' line from Wallace before the game. I can't see a legitimate reason to keep him out there all 48. It's not a good short-term strategy (he's bad, especially in this game) or a good long-term strategy (he's old).

If Skiles was swayed by Wallace's words, there must have been an underground paper that had the corresponding Tyrus Thomas story: "I play better when I sit on the bench" (ghostwritten by Sam Smith). Tyrus played the first 7:24 and didn't come back. I'm sure it will be blamed on 'matchups', and his replacements (Nocioni and Noah) had good games, but come on. He didn't light up those 7 minutes but it wasn't like he was making the dumb plays that usually get the knee-jerk Skiles benching. It's true that he likely had no natural opponent between Dirk and Howard, but it wasn't like they were each in there for the entire game. I'm clinging to the hope of one-game aberration, as with those 4 minutes of A-Drain time.

Superduperstars of the future Gordon and Deng were 8-29 from the field and supplemented that with a total of 3 free-throw attempts (all by Deng). That's a quick strategy for a Bulls loss. Usually the famous Bulls slow starts coincide with Ben Gordon slow starts, but he needs to get going and be a scorer every night. I'm always one to brush off his deficiencies, because he is talent on offense and the Bulls certainly need that. And I'm even ok with the cold shooting nights, it happens. But if it's not falling he needs to get to the line, instead we saw far too many floaters today. Moving on to Luol, while it's not entirely fair to project him based on 'contemporaries' that are all older than him, it'd be nice if he wasn't outplayed by every Tayshaun Prince, Richard Jefferson,  Josh Howard, etc. every time they matched up. Howard just looked like he was in a different class (and you can put your labels on those classes if you must) of player tonight. Deng was certainly playing closer to the basket tonight, and all season, which is something I wanted to see. But that also means the growing pains (implying growth at all, which could be optimistic) of lots of botched inside attempts and being physically overwhelmed.

If it wasn't for a Herculean effort by Nocioni (3-4 from three, 15-16 from the line), the game would've been out of reach by halftime. But it was a wasted effort considering he was tasked with picking up for nearly every member of the starting lineup. Chris Duhon also played well enough to earn a start in the 2nd half over Hinrich (Noah started for Tyrus), but those are the kinds of bench efforts that should supplement the starters towards a win, not have them clinging to a double-digit deficit all game.

No real shame in losing to the Mavericks by five, but this team got some lucky performances to be that close, and the players that will make or break the season weren't up to par, yet again.

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Sure it's fair to compare Deng to those players
He's asking to get paid like they are (Josh Howard is only making $9 million this year!), so hell yes he should be compared to them.  In retrospect, thank God Deng and Gordon turned down their contract extension offers.

by Big D on Dec 3, 2007 11:40 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I say that every night before bed...
That's a good point on the contract clocks. But even so, Deng's not going to jump 5 years older to give us a better comp with Howard, so it's not an even evaluation and shouldn't be treated as such.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 11:45 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

huh?
Howard is in his 5th NBA season, Deng is in his 4th, so it's perfectly fair to compare the two.  Deng doesn't deserve an allowance for having turned pro early anymore.  

by Fred Manrique on Dec 4, 2007 10:07 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

cop-out
Lu's played over 200 games in the NBA.  Making excuses for his age is just holding him to a lower standard.  I'm not asking for him to outplay Howard (or Jefferson or Prince), but if he's really the best player on this team, he's got to at least show he's in their class.  

If "age matters" so much, why is Kirk apparently getting worse when he should be peaking?

by Fred Manrique on Dec 4, 2007 10:48 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I like this quote from
K.C.'s write-up of the Kirk/Ty benching:
Coach Scott Skiles benched those two starters to open the second half of a dreadful 103-98 loss to the Mavericks, completely snuffing any momentum the Bulls had built with back-to-back victories.

I realize he means that the dreadful first half snuffed momentum, but grammatically speaking it reads as Skiles benching of Kirk/Ty snuffed momentum - and given that many here think Skiles' handling of playing time for Ty is a problem, maybe both the literal and intended meanings are true.

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 3, 2007 11:42 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I also think the headline is misleading
"Hinrich benched in loss."  He played (and well, I might add) in the 4th quarter, it was just the opening of the 3rd where he was benched.

by Jaina on Dec 3, 2007 11:53 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Agreed,
but then I'm a Kirk fan.  It seems like at this point it's not going to matter what he does well from game to game until he strings several all-around great games together.  Not many people are paying attention to what he does well from game to game right now, and issues like TOs and fouls and shooting get brought up every game even when not a problem

I noticed that Mariotti's Cuban ass-kissing blog points at Kirk, Lu and BG as a problem tonight - but he lists the shooting percentages for each of them and only gives point totals for BG and Lu, leaving out the little detail that Kirk was 7-7 from the line.  I just kind of figure that he's doing plenty not well right now, at least he deserves the acknowledgment of when he doesn't suck at something.  :)

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 4, 2007 12:14 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kirk is
damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He has done a better job of not fouling so far this season. It was nice to see him go to the basket last night late in the game. I'd like to see more of that from him.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 7:16 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I was going to stay up to watch the replay
so I could catch the 4th - I was up late finishing a project anyway - and the stupid power went out half way through the third!

Anyway,  i remember Kirk saying something when he was out with an injury for a couple of games about being able to see aspects of the game while he was forced to watch that he had been missing while playing - I was wondering if that happened a bit last night.

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Meaning?
[quote]He has done a better job of not fouling so far this season.[/quote]

And his defense has been bad.  

by nateroth on Dec 4, 2007 11:13 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hey I'm
looking for any positive here. If it's not fouling as much I'll take it for now.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 1:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

disagree
I'd rather him foul out playing tough, hard-nosed defense ANY day...opposed to him NOT fouling out playing the soft, weak D that he's been showing.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 5, 2007 2:38 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

But people
bitch when he fouls out too. That's what I mean that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Hopefully soon he will find a happy medium.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 5, 2007 3:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I am so sick
of Skiles showing Ben Wallace favoritism. He gets dominated on the boards (which is all they ask him to do because he is one of the worst offensive starting centers in the league) YET PLAYS THE WHOLE FRIGGIN GAME! I don't care how much money Wallace makes, if he plays like this you bench him.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2007 12:21 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Side note...
Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop COMBINED FOR 8 BLOCKS! Why can't Wallace get one stupid block! He played the whole game!!!!!

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2007 12:27 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Why can't Wallace get one stupid block!
Probably because he was too busy being out of position and doing things like defending Jason Terry on the perimeter...

...yeah....THAT worked...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 4, 2007 9:52 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

its not just the blocks or rebounds.
On offense, he barely ever goes up "strong" to the basket. If someone is on the way, he will try to do a reverse pump in the air, and the shot barely ever goes in. Big Ben is so strong, and yet on offense he is so whimpy.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Dec 4, 2007 10:14 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Terrible
You can allow Erick Dampier to outplay you on your own court.  Ben Wallace played 48 minutes and couldn't scratch double figures in rebounds.  Dampier was the one creating new possessions for Dallas.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 12:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

VAMOS NOCIONI!!!
For all you people who always had doubt about what NOCIONI can do,

http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2007/12/nba-news-another-big-night-for-delfino.html

Comments are appreciated

Please visit my blog @ http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/

by sivanjohn on Dec 4, 2007 12:35 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here is a comment :
How come your comments are in English and the rest of the website is in French, and it is supposed to be a website about argentinians ?

C'est plutôt amusant !

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Dec 4, 2007 2:53 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Here Is My Reply
Totally appriciated, duh????

Didn't know I was good french all this while

Please visit my blog @ http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/

by sivanjohn on Dec 4, 2007 4:33 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Threw Away the Game
The Bulls really threw away the game this time. Waiting till that late in the game to rally, it's impossible. Even with Dallas making those stupid fouls. The way Dallas ended the game, they practically tied a bow on the match and handed it to us.

But if we can play the next few matches like how we ended this one, there's hope yet

醉生梦死

by blackmage71 on Dec 4, 2007 2:51 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I for one am
very happy that Noch is on this team. He came to play when others didn't.

I don't get this team at all.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 7:26 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

The way
he's been playing he's earned the contract.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 8:08 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Huh? No he hasn't.
How do you "earn" a five-year contract in less than two months? The problem is much more with the five years than the per year.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I'll worry
about the length of his contract when he isn't playing well but right now he is and he is earning the money.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:12 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

That's fine.
It's semantics, which I bother with too much, but there is a definite difference in saying someone, "is earning their money" and "he has earned his contract".

I don't think many, if any, would have a problem with Noc's contract if it were 2 years shorter.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 4, 2007 12:07 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think you
just like to argue and have this need to always be right.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

...attempting to interpret Skiles' actions
game to game...it almost seems that his playing Wallace all those minutes was a prelude to radically reducing them.  ("Oh yeah, you think minutes will solve your problems?  Well, here's 48 of 'em!")  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Wallace's minutes cut in half Wednesday against Charlotte.  I just get the feeling Skiles is always trying to prove to his players that they suck and taht they desparately need him if they're going to amount to anything.  I think Skiles' ego gets in the way of every decision he makes.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:23 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's pretty clear
that your ego gets in the way of every word you write.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 9:29 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

wtf?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:36 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I guess it's easier
to attack the person than critique the idea, and with your demonstrated penchant for the easy road, your personal attack comes as no surprise.  No matter.  It's just the temper of the times.  I forgive you.  I'm more interested in the ideas people here have about why Wallace gets 48 minutes and Joe Smith gets zero.  Why Tyrus starts and then doesn't even sniff the court the second half.  I believe Skiles is a tormented human being with loads of unresolved personal issues that get in the way of his making good, sound basketball decisions.  I'm open to other theories.  I'd be happy to be shown how his last night's line-ups made basketball sense.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:10 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's not personal
it's just directed at you because you post your barstool wisdom so often.  Joe Smith has a bad knee, which probably flared up over the weekend.  Just because they didn't report doesn't make it some Machiavellian plan on the part of Skiles to mess with players.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Smith tweakedhis knee
or something against the Bobcats.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

SKILES ego is the problem
Skiles and Wallace should just both go away...

by fireskiles on Dec 4, 2007 7:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I seem to recall that before the season started
someone here went through all the potential 2guard combinations with Duhon at the point.  Do I remember correctly that there was only one that worked and that everyone else played worse with Duhon as a back court mate?  Is that pattern holding true so far this year?  Is it too early to draw any conclusions?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:33 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

82games hasn't posted any
player pair data.  So it's hard to figure all the backcourt combinations out.  But, Hinrich for sure has somehow managed to play even worse when playing SG with Duhon. (9.4 v. 7.3 PER).

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI2C.HTM

by Scotter on Dec 4, 2007 5:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

notes
He loved Wallace's screens but his offense...not so much. He thinks Du should start over Gordon?! What a weirdo.

Also worth nothing, he mentions the Gasol thing.

Like the Knicks last year, I root for the Lakers and Grizzlies to lose every time just to the chances of us getting their superstars comes easier.

The way Noc has been playing, he's a huge chip.

by Option27 on Dec 4, 2007 10:19 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Duhon purity index
and sit Gordon. Bah!

He did get this right though:

The Bulls' league-worst shooting percentage (34.1 for this game) was not helped by their missing a total of 15 layups. That's one for Griffin; two each for Gordon, Duhon, and Noah; three for Deng, and five for Wallace (including a missed dunk and a ridiculous backhand flip). Also, the Mavs blocked nine more layup attempts.

Plus you can add the times that Wallace recieved the ball in position for a layup and instead just danced around and passed it back out.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 10:23 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Wallace Offense hurts
Last nights Bulls game 1st game I saw entire thing since Det, only watched 1st half of Knicks so I may be off base but it looked to me that the Bulls are hurting due to Wallace not being a threat on the offense end.  Especially ugly was when he was in high post in their zone, they don't have to even guard him as he will not shoot 12ft jump shot and they also want Thomas / Noah to shoot that shot as well.

I know other teams have C or PF who aren't big on the offense end but it seems to me that Wallace is more of a problem for the Bulls because he ends up with the ball in their offense much more.  Maybe also because they don't have dominate scorers and are shooting such low% that Wallace's misses hurt more.  It just seems a problem when Bulls players shoot such a low % at the rim (not just Wallace).  Puts too much pressure on guards when they miss so many layups, short shots.  And Wallace not being threat allows Defense to hedge over to Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Noc on every drive, pick, etc

I guess this leads to question did other teams adjust defense this year vs Bulls?  Or are Bulls offensive playes just playing / shooting worse?  I bet its some of both

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 11:38 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I don't think his Kukoc comments
are at all fair.  Kukoc's whole career was defined by his willingness to assume a supportive rather than a selfish role in the offense.  It's Toni's legacy that gives legitimacy to the comments Rosen quotes.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

it must have been
tough for Toni to take a supporting role on a team with low usage scrubs like Jordan and Pippen. Lotta self-control there.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:12 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

When he first came to the U.S.
his nickname was "The Waiter," because of his style of being a facilitator.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:34 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

really???
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:37 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I can't tell if you're kidding.
Yes, that really was his nickname...although I can only vouch for its translation into English.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no way!!!
Next you're going to tell me Jordan was such a good dunker they used to call him 'Air' Jordan. I can't believe it!!!
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:48 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

OK. Fine.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:49 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're an ass
"My jumper's so smooth it will seduce your girlfriend." -1958ChiTown

by NittanyBull on Dec 4, 2007 7:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

can't argue that
but there's a different kind of assiness involved in mythologizing careers.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 7:33 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Waiter
I always liked that nickname

Big Toni fan, very nice offensive player to have coming off that team's bench.  Loved the fact that he could hit the three at his height and pass the ball

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 11:40 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I liked the name ok, it's just that
it made him seem so wimpy. The name was especially ironic on defense, because Toni played something like the matador defense, only I pictured him with a waiter's outfit and a white napkin over his forearm, providing excellent service to the other team's scorers. "Right this way, sir..."
"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 4, 2007 1:38 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Lotta self-control there
Alec is right.
Toni came to the team in a support role, only to get thrown into the fire right next to pippen when MJ left before he played one game.

So for his first two years in the NBA, Kukoc was very solid as a STARTER, and rightly so.
Coulda started anywhere in the league.

But then when MJ came back, he had to once again take a seat and come off the bench.
But he made the best of it - even winning the 6th man award.
Alot of guys nowdays would just be pissed, sulk alot, bitch to the media and demand to be traded.

And anyone who has any clue at all about ethics, TEAM concept and just plain common sense and courtesy would know that what Toni was forced to do DOES in fact take a good deal of self control.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 4, 2007 4:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

heh
"plain common sense and courtesy" aren't exactly your area of expertise.

I don't really care how Toni felt about a reduced role, and his production actually improved after Jordan came back. It's laughable to canonize the guy for sacrifices he probably didn't make, and really didn't have a choice about.  

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 5:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

kukoc didn't start his first year
he backed up Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen.  He started the next year for most of the year even after Jordan came back.  The third year Krause traded for Rodman and Kukoc came off of the bench again.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 8:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

that second link didn't work for me
I saw the blurb about Hinrich's new house in the Tribune Redeye (shameful admission that I sometimes read the redeye), and it was worth noting that the accompanying picture was the only good picture I've ever seen of Kirk Hinrich. Belonged on the cover of Iowa Mafioso Quarterly

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Hmmm, the link
works for me.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:50 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Me too
Does that place come with a garrison to man the watchtower?
Haiku strike is OVER. Crystal ball foresees strong January to right ship and put Bulls over .500. Is crystal ball smoking crack?

by preverbal on Dec 4, 2007 12:43 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

My husband
thinks it looks like that round pad in front of the house looks like a helicopter pad.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 1:25 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Matt, maybe if you got out of your room
a bit more, perhaps perfectly common foreign language expressions would strike you more as what they are...perfectly common and ordinary, and not an attempt at anything.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Elkhorn
That really does make him a FIBbie.  

by KT on Dec 4, 2007 12:57 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

saw it yesterday
and I wondered how someone can own a house in Elkhorn and have it on the other Green Lake. And that there's a 3rd Green Lake. That was confusing.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 1:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's the town of Green Lake
the county of Green Lake, and 7 lakes called Green in the state of Wisconsin.  At least, 7 big enough to get listed on the official lake list - there's tons of small lakes - 37 alone around in Walworth county.

So yeah, we repeat names.  

by KT on Dec 4, 2007 1:46 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Really? The 'Kirk bought a house' excuse?
How could I not... :^)
"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 4, 2007 1:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe you
missed the word might.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 2:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's the 2 spot that is killing the bulls
for a jumpshooting team that has no inside game, the bulls have to get big production from the 2 spot.  BG's erratic play and inability to get to the line is compounded by the fact that his backup is Kirk, who can't make a jumpshot to save his life.   It's that simple.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 10:33 AM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It looked to me
that in last night's game Hinrich finally had a good--make that very good--quarter when he was shifted to the 2, with Duhon playing point.  He  consistantly drove to the basket, drew a lot of fouls.  People here have been talking for a long time about how Kirk is playing out of position as a point guard....  This is why I asked above about the analysis that was done here by I don't remember who, about Duhon + fill-in-the-blank at the 2.  Does it make any sense to start Duhon and Hinrich together?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:50 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No
Hinrich isn't the answer at 2 either.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 10:56 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no
people have been wrong for a long time about Hinrich's position. The team, and Hinrich have played better when he's at the point. The data has been posted so many times the issue should be as dead as Bob Cousy.

The analysis you were asking for is here, and it's about Duhon not being the ideal starting guard, and how Skiles frequently misuses him with Hinrich.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:04 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Right. Thanks.
That was a great post.  Is it too early to say whether that trend is still holding true for this season?  Rosen mentions, and I think he's right, that Duhon has improved his outside shot.  Does that make enough of a difference to give him a try as a starter?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:12 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

no
Duhon's 07-08 34.4 3P% is actually below his career .358
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

So I take it you don't think starting
Duhon is the answer?  Just grasping at straws, here.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:19 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

agree
Kirk needs to play point guard not 2.  He's not a good enough scorer to be the answer at 2.

People are made he is not getting assists but hard to do when Bulls are missing jump shots, not getting easy transition buckts and don't have post game

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 11:42 AM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

More than that
The Bulls are not just a jump shooting team.  They are a jump shooting team that relies on defensive pressure to SUPPLEMENT their shooting.

Chicago must play shut down defense to win games.  Dallas shot 48+% from the field last night.  Chicago couldn't defend the pick and roll, AGAIN.  When the pick and roll defense breaks down the Bulls have to shoot lights out in order to win.

Look at Nocioni.  He went to the line 16 times!  Take it to the rim fellas.  Penetrate.  Drive!  Slash!  Dunk the f'n basketball.  Those rumors of a lifeless team are accurate.  These close losses have Chicago looking like a deflating basketball.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 1:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Will Skiles make a change
in the starting line up for tomorrow's game?  It seemed that he hinted at it in yesterday's post game.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 12:03 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are you just asking rhetorically?
cause, er, I don't know.

This was mentioned already.

(Or should I have said "el mentiondo". I'm still locked in my room so I can't find out if that's commonly used.)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 12:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

are you asking me rhetorically??
My 8:23 was in response (though not a direct reply) to your 8:15.  I've been trying all day to get feedback on moving Duhon into the starting rotation and the implications of that move for whoever might play opposite him at the 2.  It seems that among the BaB cognoscente, starting Duhon at the point is not the right move.

Perhaps I should have asked, "Seeing that more line-up changes are apparently in the offing, and given the prevailing opinion against starting Duhon as one of those moves, what might Skiles be likely to do tomorrow?"

Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 12:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

huh?
how does opinion here have anything to do with what Skiles actually decides?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 1:20 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

perhaps you should've asked
"Seeing that I have nothing substantial to add, yet given the high opinion of my own thoughts in spite of that, what foreign phrase can I post in this comment box?"

Having a thought on what Skiles could do is different than a guess as to whether he'll do it. I don't see the point in the latter, especially since Skiles has proven to have little rhyme or reason. Unless you count energy as a reason.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 1:42 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

how many points...
...can this team score if duhon is getting a bulk of the pg minutes?  he can bring the ball up the court and seems to get the entire team involved, but if he's only shooting 35%, and wallace can't make a free throw, a layup or a dunk, and ben gordon has his patented 'breakout game' once every 10 games, and tyrus thomas is playing under the suppression of skiles' foot... what good would a duhon do?  or for that matter, what good would a jason kidd do on this team right now?  (besides punching skiles in the nose)

by leeac on Dec 4, 2007 1:01 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Kirk
is a streaky scorer.  I think both him and gordon are.  One potential knock on Kirk is he needs to dribble excessively when he is in a scoring zone and he never passes the ball on stretches when he is scoring points.  The other players basically don't move or cut when they know Kirk is being aggressive and will take a shot.  I'm not sure how to assess this? On one hand Kirk is scoring and keeping the game competitive, but on the other hand when he cools down and misses two or more shots in a row, then he passes the ball like its a hot potato but the other players at that point have no rhythm to their offensive sets.  This seems to be  an area that he can improve on.  I think, if he is able to pass the ball inside more and wait until he receives a pass back the offense might be more fluid.

Offensive sets... what offensive sets?, the Bulls always looks as if they are playing one-on-one basketball with very little ball movement.  The Ball goes into to Noc, then a shot goes up or a one-on-one move and then a shot. The Balls goes to Gordon, shot-up. The ball goes in to Deng, dribble 1 or 2, then shot.   Kirk brings the ball down court, dribbles 17 times, does a cross-over move then a shot.  

Skiles offensive sets are over rated. Its just looks like one pass to a player then a shot or a one-on-one move and then a shot to me?  

What is a fast break? Four or five pass offensive sets?  Skiles.  Pressure full court defense was good last night, use it more and let those players earn their pay. You'll even need to bring Thabo on the court because Kirk and Ben will finally get winded, and you'll then have to give them a break for something other than stupid fouls.

by exult463 on Dec 4, 2007 12:20 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

One bright spot
Juan Barrea enters the game.  Skiles calls a screen iso for Deng.  Deng screens on the left wing for Kirk.  Dallas switches.  Deng posts Barrea.  Deng gets easy bucket at the rim.

Next possession?  They run a weave and miss a jump shot.

Coaches have to exploit the other team's subs.  Nate Robinson in the game?  Put Deng at SG.  Post his ass up.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 1:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There are
a few other streaky scorers on this team besides Kirk. It seems to be contagious.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 1:17 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You're missing the point
Whenever Hinrich and Du are playing together, Hinrich is the shooting guard and supposed to be shooting.  Whenever it's Hinrich and BG, Hinrich doesn't shoot, he tries to run the play and usually the play is to get the ball to BG or Deng.  In the second half last night Skiles rotated BG and Hinrich exclusively at the 2 with Du at the point.  Neither Hinrich or BG did squat in the third at the 2.

As for the excessive dribbling, it's fine as long as  Hinrich doesn't pick up his dribble.  Everybody should know that Hinrich is trying to find the open guy when he dribbles around.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 1:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

the Hinrich dribbles to much complaint
really peeves me off. It's a popular one on WMVP talk shows.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 1:58 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

trying to find the open guy?
Ben Wallace is on self check and his defensive assignment can roam anywhere near the basket (4-on-5 argument). And futhermore, no other Bull player causes a double team... Therefore this explains why it seems Kirk dribbles around a lot trying to find the open guy?

by exult463 on Dec 4, 2007 2:31 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Watch film of Iverson
AI has the same move as Hinrich where he goes baseline with the dribble.  What AI does is keep the defender right on his hip about 8 feet from the baseline.  He's selling the drive, but he's looking to take a shot and get fouled.

With the defender on his hip, he'll either make a slash at the rim or he will take a quick step left towards the baseline to elevate for the jumpshot.  But even here, he is trying to draw contact.  He tends to wait for the defender to also take the step towards him and then elevate.

AI has become a potential HoFer by getting to the FT line.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 2:53 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

hmm
I would agree Kirk does not have the finishing skills / drawing foul skills of AI at the basket, although not sure that is news or would be disputed by anyone

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 4:15 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Just saying
I'm just offering a reason to explain WHY Hinrich has to dribble so much.  He doesn't have that aspect of his game to get to the line so instead of taking opportunities to draw contact he just dribbles the ball under the basket looking for a passing lane.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 4:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Interesting game last night
i honestly believe the mavs are going to win the finals, or at least get there again this year, so in my opinion, they are always going to be a big challenge. as last night proved, they have a lot of guys capable of scoring over 20 points every night, who knows how bad the loss would have been if harris didnt go down?  i am still shocked the bulls were able to keep it that close at the end, they had no business being within 10 points of the mavs, especially with gordon and deng having off nights.  i believe the bulls would have won easily if one of those guys could have been scoring consistently, but oh well.  noc had one of those nights that make you wonder... but i am not holding my breath.  kirk finally sniffed the smelling salt and woke up, even though it was three quarters too late, beggars can't be choosers, i will take any positive strides from kirk right now.  i dont think there is anything wrong with skiles play calls last night, our guys have to hit open shots, they were there, they couldnt get them to fall.  dont get me started on the amount of missed layups last night, that was probably the most frustrating thing to watch. again, i think the bulls would have won if we hit half of the easy layups we had...
i was at the game and the crowd could not get into the game, it is so hard when the bulls go down 10 right from the get go.  the bulls could have easily lost that game by 20, so the fact that they   lost close is a good sign of progress.  

by Conor on Dec 4, 2007 1:04 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fourth Quarter mistakes
1) Defending the pick and roll

Everyone knows that in close games Dallas relies on the pick and roll to protect leads.  Once again, Chicago defended this poorly and Dallas made most of their open shots.

2) Boxing out

Brandon Bass is hard to miss.  If you don't put a body on a player that is only in there to rebound the basketball you will suffer the fate.

3) Fire

Where's the fire?  Is anyone on the Chicago roster ready to LEAD this team?  Is anyone going to get after another player?  I hate to say it, but the leader of this team speaks English as a second language.  Bulls need some swagger.

4) Ben Gordon

We know Ben is not going to shoot 55% every night.  We know he's not going 5-7 from 3 point territory.  But ZERO free throw attempts from your shooting guard is awful.  Ben never needed Pilates.  He needs Aikido.  He wants balance and quickness.  Learning how to fall helps you get to the line.  Just ask Devin Harris.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 1:11 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

BG has had a few, very few,
games in which he's shot a lot of free throws.  This is what makes is seem like it's just a mind-set for him.  He can do it.  We've seen it.  He just chooses not to most of the time.  That bothers me. There are a number of players who almost every game are getting to the line a lot.  But Ben isn't...only when he really feels like it.  One of his few big free throw games...was it against the Knicks in the Garden?  This makes BG my prime candidate to move out of the starting rotation.  Until he approaches every game like it's against the Knicks at the Garden, I don't think he should be rewarded with a starting spot.    
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 1:28 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

If Skiles wants to give noce more
playing time he should than put him in the sf spot, move dang down to the two and give that lineup a shot with gordon coming fo the bench, possibly with hinrich also coming in off the bench for duhon.

so:

Duhon
Dang
Nocioni
Thomas
Wallace

as the starting five, and see where that takes u...if hinrich plays off the bench like he did in the third and fourth when he came in off the bench :) and gordon does his off da bench miracles like he did the first couple of years they might get a nice spark and string some wins together!

by Gogiman on Dec 4, 2007 1:33 PM CST reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Matt, I have a great idea.
Why don't you start a basketball blog...and then make snide remarks about everyone who posts to it?  You could be the Don Rickles of blogs.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 1:50 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

You know what would be better?
If you could go give JoeJoe a hand with his blog.  See if you can get an exclusive agreement to only post there.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 1:54 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

good idea
he's mentioned the need for "an ejection of excitment". Which could get messy without help.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 2:09 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Maybe Thabo can come over with some silly string.
"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 4, 2007 3:32 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I suddenly have a strong urge to start posting
multiple posts at joejoe's blog with the username "Thabosillystring4ever"
"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 4, 2007 7:08 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

HAHAHA!
I dare you. :-)
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 7:36 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Guarding the 2
I want to see this lineup as well, but my concern is defending the 2.  Look at Dallas.  Do you put Deng on Jason Terry or Devin Harris?  Can he keep up with these guys?

The lineup looks better when Dallas goes to the bench to insert Stackhouse.

I do agree, overall, this lineup is the best for facing the Eastern Conference shooting guards.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 2:19 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

owning the 2 position = monster wins
Bulls look like the most dominant team in the NBA when they shut down the 2 position.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 2:55 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I misunderstood your first comment
in that your concern with starting Deng is guarding the 2. I have that concern as well, especially since Josh Howard carved him up.

But I still don't think it's that big of a deal. I'd rather see Gordon score and not worry about how to shut down guys who are rarely shut down anyway.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 2:59 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Last night
Say Deng started at the 2.  With Terry or Harris on him it's post city.  So they switch Howard to Deng.  Then Nocioni becomes mayor of post city.

Dallas subs Stackhouse for Harris.

If anything, you muck up the opponents rotation.  This is how Golden State beat the Mavs.  Once they disrupted the rotation[yes, hot shooting really helped] they made Avery Johnson overthink and lose the series.

Skiles wants to jockey the 3 and 4 position, but the best place to shift the rotation in the Eastern Conference is at the 2 position.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 3:11 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Doesn't Terry come off of the bench?
or did somebody get hurt?
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 3:12 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I think the Mavs are healthy
I think they just started Harris and Terry because our backcourt is 6'3" and 6'1".

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 3:18 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

since when do the Bulls
successfully post up anybody? And what about defending Howard and Terry? Deng and Noc make you the slowest wing defense in basketball, and likely the most fouly. If I were Dallas I wouldn't change the lineup at all.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:23 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

"busted coverages"
i.e. Tyrus is dumb.

Not that I don't want Tyrus to get his head out of his ass, but just let him play through it and coach him for once, instead of just yanking him.

Bulls need to fire Skiles before Smith's and Noc's legs fall off.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:02 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

and before
Ben Wallace starts to feel like anything less than 48 minutes is an insult.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 3:05 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Big Ben / Thomas
I agree playing Big Ben all those mins is foolish.  Especially when he's not effecting game in positive way.  No dominace on D and poor O.  

Bulls need someone to attack the rim, at least Thomas did that few times in 1st half.  Seems they need to encourage him to attack not confuse him since he never knows when he will play or not

Also think someone needs to hit Thabo in the head and tell him, hey you are a tall, althletic guard, use that on offense, nobody said to be so scared and only shoot jumpers, why don't you try dunking on someone?

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 4:21 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I need more skiles-hate
this will put Thomas behind Smith, Noc, Noah, and heck probably Deng in the tiny-ball lineup.

We need to fire Skiles or trade Thomas. I don't want to trade Thomas unless it's for somebody good, and this can't help the ol' trade value.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:06 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

It's Tyson Chandler part 2
They're going to let Tyrus get deeper and deeper in Skiles' doghouse, and then give him away for 10 cents on the dollar.  Skiles is a good coach, but he's not so good that we can continue to give away talented players just because he can't get along with tem.

by Big D on Dec 4, 2007 3:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Tyrus is very dumb
How stupid do you have to be to throw the ball in the backcourt during an uncontested fastbr . . . oh wait, that was someone else, never mind.  I wonder why Thomas gets benched for making mental mistakes, and not someone like Hinrich or Wallace?  I'm sure it has nothing to do with trying to justify their salaries, of course.

by Big D on Dec 4, 2007 3:14 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Nocioni did one too
last night when he was on the break and tried a behind-the-back pass that ended predictably.

But I'm sure that was an 'agressive' error. gag.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:16 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

No one blows more coverages than Noce
And I'm not advocating benching him, since he played a hell of a game last night, but if that's the standard, why isn't everyone on the team equally held accountable?  I don't think it necessarily matters if Tyrus starts or comes off the bench, but Jesus Christ, stop yanking him back and forth like this.  They lost by five points to one of the best teams in the league, so to publicly brand one player the scapegoat like this is really a shitty thing to do.

by Big D on Dec 4, 2007 3:29 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

I really don't know
Skiles should be focused on winning games, not teaching lessons. But that'd imply his job is somewhat on the line. Maybe Pax has told him it's not.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

There's a difference
between how Tyrus blows assignments and how Noc plays defense.  Where was the public branding?  The headline was how Kirk was benched, not Tyrus.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 3:34 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

proof is in the lineup
If Tyrus is benched, he's the scapegoat.

I don't care about Skiles' media mindgames, I just care about the minutes. I'd bet the players feel the same way.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:53 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Which pass?
Was this the pass he made behind the back with three Mavs in the paint?  If so, I think he actually lost the ball there.  He didn't have anyone to pass to and may have been trying to dribble behind his back.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 3:52 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

Fire Skiles plzzzzzzzz
The Bulls cant keep going back n forth on a lineup...Noah and Ty didnt make the court the 2nd half.  We lost by 5pts, i really think they could of helped, if not then why are they on the team.  Skiles hasn't developed not one of our draft picks!!!  Deng and Gordon are still the same players as we drafted them.  

by tyrus4prez on Dec 4, 2007 4:03 PM CST to parent up reply reply actions actions   0 recs

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