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Bulls fall behind, stay behind, lose

Fits better than the alternative 'furious rally' recap theme, I think.

When 4 of your starters are terrible, and the 5th doesn't get going until down double-digits in the final quarter (that's right, a Kirk Hinrich sighting), you're going to lose.

Ben Wallace played the entire game and had 8 rebounds and no blocks. Maybe this was Skiles' nod to the media after the 'when I play more I play better' line from Wallace before the game. I can't see a legitimate reason to keep him out there all 48. It's not a good short-term strategy (he's bad, especially in this game) or a good long-term strategy (he's old).

If Skiles was swayed by Wallace's words, there must have been an underground paper that had the corresponding Tyrus Thomas story: "I play better when I sit on the bench" (ghostwritten by Sam Smith). Tyrus played the first 7:24 and didn't come back. I'm sure it will be blamed on 'matchups', and his replacements (Nocioni and Noah) had good games, but come on. He didn't light up those 7 minutes but it wasn't like he was making the dumb plays that usually get the knee-jerk Skiles benching. It's true that he likely had no natural opponent between Dirk and Howard, but it wasn't like they were each in there for the entire game. I'm clinging to the hope of one-game aberration, as with those 4 minutes of A-Drain time.

Superduperstars of the future Gordon and Deng were 8-29 from the field and supplemented that with a total of 3 free-throw attempts (all by Deng). That's a quick strategy for a Bulls loss. Usually the famous Bulls slow starts coincide with Ben Gordon slow starts, but he needs to get going and be a scorer every night. I'm always one to brush off his deficiencies, because he is talent on offense and the Bulls certainly need that. And I'm even ok with the cold shooting nights, it happens. But if it's not falling he needs to get to the line, instead we saw far too many floaters today. Moving on to Luol, while it's not entirely fair to project him based on 'contemporaries' that are all older than him, it'd be nice if he wasn't outplayed by every Tayshaun Prince, Richard Jefferson,  Josh Howard, etc. every time they matched up. Howard just looked like he was in a different class (and you can put your labels on those classes if you must) of player tonight. Deng was certainly playing closer to the basket tonight, and all season, which is something I wanted to see. But that also means the growing pains (implying growth at all, which could be optimistic) of lots of botched inside attempts and being physically overwhelmed.

If it wasn't for a Herculean effort by Nocioni (3-4 from three, 15-16 from the line), the game would've been out of reach by halftime. But it was a wasted effort considering he was tasked with picking up for nearly every member of the starting lineup. Chris Duhon also played well enough to earn a start in the 2nd half over Hinrich (Noah started for Tyrus), but those are the kinds of bench efforts that should supplement the starters towards a win, not have them clinging to a double-digit deficit all game.

No real shame in losing to the Mavericks by five, but this team got some lucky performances to be that close, and the players that will make or break the season weren't up to par, yet again.

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Sure it's fair to compare Deng to those players
He's asking to get paid like they are (Josh Howard is only making $9 million this year!), so hell yes he should be compared to them.  In retrospect, thank God Deng and Gordon turned down their contract extension offers.

by Big D on Dec 3, 2007 11:40 PM CST   0 recs

I say that every night before bed...
That's a good point on the contract clocks. But even so, Deng's not going to jump 5 years older to give us a better comp with Howard, so it's not an even evaluation and shouldn't be treated as such.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 11:45 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

huh?
Howard is in his 5th NBA season, Deng is in his 4th, so it's perfectly fair to compare the two.  Deng doesn't deserve an allowance for having turned pro early anymore.  

by Fred Manrique on Dec 4, 2007 10:07 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

cop-out
Lu's played over 200 games in the NBA.  Making excuses for his age is just holding him to a lower standard.  I'm not asking for him to outplay Howard (or Jefferson or Prince), but if he's really the best player on this team, he's got to at least show he's in their class.  

If "age matters" so much, why is Kirk apparently getting worse when he should be peaking?

by Fred Manrique on Dec 4, 2007 10:48 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I like this quote from
K.C.'s write-up of the Kirk/Ty benching:
Coach Scott Skiles benched those two starters to open the second half of a dreadful 103-98 loss to the Mavericks, completely snuffing any momentum the Bulls had built with back-to-back victories.

I realize he means that the dreadful first half snuffed momentum, but grammatically speaking it reads as Skiles benching of Kirk/Ty snuffed momentum - and given that many here think Skiles' handling of playing time for Ty is a problem, maybe both the literal and intended meanings are true.

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 3, 2007 11:42 PM CST   0 recs

I also think the headline is misleading
"Hinrich benched in loss."  He played (and well, I might add) in the 4th quarter, it was just the opening of the 3rd where he was benched.

by Jaina on Dec 3, 2007 11:53 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Agreed,
but then I'm a Kirk fan.  It seems like at this point it's not going to matter what he does well from game to game until he strings several all-around great games together.  Not many people are paying attention to what he does well from game to game right now, and issues like TOs and fouls and shooting get brought up every game even when not a problem

I noticed that Mariotti's Cuban ass-kissing blog points at Kirk, Lu and BG as a problem tonight - but he lists the shooting percentages for each of them and only gives point totals for BG and Lu, leaving out the little detail that Kirk was 7-7 from the line.  I just kind of figure that he's doing plenty not well right now, at least he deserves the acknowledgment of when he doesn't suck at something.  :)

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 4, 2007 12:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Kirk is
damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. He has done a better job of not fouling so far this season. It was nice to see him go to the basket last night late in the game. I'd like to see more of that from him.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 7:16 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I was going to stay up to watch the replay
so I could catch the 4th - I was up late finishing a project anyway - and the stupid power went out half way through the third!

Anyway,  i remember Kirk saying something when he was out with an injury for a couple of games about being able to see aspects of the game while he was forced to watch that he had been missing while playing - I was wondering if that happened a bit last night.

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 4, 2007 10:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Meaning?
[quote]He has done a better job of not fouling so far this season.[/quote]

And his defense has been bad.  

by nateroth on Dec 4, 2007 11:13 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hey I'm
looking for any positive here. If it's not fouling as much I'll take it for now.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 1:20 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

disagree
I'd rather him foul out playing tough, hard-nosed defense ANY day...opposed to him NOT fouling out playing the soft, weak D that he's been showing.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 5, 2007 2:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

But people
bitch when he fouls out too. That's what I mean that he is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't. Hopefully soon he will find a happy medium.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 5, 2007 3:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I am so sick
of Skiles showing Ben Wallace favoritism. He gets dominated on the boards (which is all they ask him to do because he is one of the worst offensive starting centers in the league) YET PLAYS THE WHOLE FRIGGIN GAME! I don't care how much money Wallace makes, if he plays like this you bench him.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2007 12:21 AM CST   0 recs

Side note...
Erick Dampier and DeSagana Diop COMBINED FOR 8 BLOCKS! Why can't Wallace get one stupid block! He played the whole game!!!!!

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 4, 2007 12:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Why can't Wallace get one stupid block!
Probably because he was too busy being out of position and doing things like defending Jason Terry on the perimeter...

...yeah....THAT worked...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 4, 2007 9:52 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

its not just the blocks or rebounds.
On offense, he barely ever goes up "strong" to the basket. If someone is on the way, he will try to do a reverse pump in the air, and the shot barely ever goes in. Big Ben is so strong, and yet on offense he is so whimpy.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Dec 4, 2007 10:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Terrible
You can allow Erick Dampier to outplay you on your own court.  Ben Wallace played 48 minutes and couldn't scratch double figures in rebounds.  Dampier was the one creating new possessions for Dallas.

by NBA Observer on Dec 4, 2007 12:55 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

VAMOS NOCIONI!!!
For all you people who always had doubt about what NOCIONI can do,

http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2007/12/nba-news-another-big-night-for-delfino.html

Comments are appreciated

Please visit my blog @ http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/

by sivanjohn on Dec 4, 2007 12:35 AM CST   0 recs

Here is a comment :
How come your comments are in English and the rest of the website is in French, and it is supposed to be a website about argentinians ?

C'est plutôt amusant !

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Dec 4, 2007 2:53 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Here Is My Reply
Totally appriciated, duh????

Didn't know I was good french all this while

Please visit my blog @ http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/

by sivanjohn on Dec 4, 2007 4:33 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Threw Away the Game
The Bulls really threw away the game this time. Waiting till that late in the game to rally, it's impossible. Even with Dallas making those stupid fouls. The way Dallas ended the game, they practically tied a bow on the match and handed it to us.

But if we can play the next few matches like how we ended this one, there's hope yet

醉生梦死

by blackmage71 on Dec 4, 2007 2:51 AM CST   0 recs

I for one am
very happy that Noch is on this team. He came to play when others didn't.

I don't get this team at all.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 7:26 AM CST   0 recs

The way
he's been playing he's earned the contract.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 8:08 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Huh? No he hasn't.
How do you "earn" a five-year contract in less than two months? The problem is much more with the five years than the per year.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 4, 2007 9:44 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'll worry
about the length of his contract when he isn't playing well but right now he is and he is earning the money.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's fine.
It's semantics, which I bother with too much, but there is a definite difference in saying someone, "is earning their money" and "he has earned his contract".

I don't think many, if any, would have a problem with Noc's contract if it were 2 years shorter.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 4, 2007 12:07 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I think you
just like to argue and have this need to always be right.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 2:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hanley whispers lineup changes
as soon as Wednesday.

Uh, why? Freaking Skiles, stop coaching so much.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 9:15 AM CST   0 recs

...attempting to interpret Skiles' actions
game to game...it almost seems that his playing Wallace all those minutes was a prelude to radically reducing them.  ("Oh yeah, you think minutes will solve your problems?  Well, here's 48 of 'em!")  I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Wallace's minutes cut in half Wednesday against Charlotte.  I just get the feeling Skiles is always trying to prove to his players that they suck and taht they desparately need him if they're going to amount to anything.  I think Skiles' ego gets in the way of every decision he makes.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:23 AM CST   0 recs

It's pretty clear
that your ego gets in the way of every word you write.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 9:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

wtf?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:36 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I guess it's easier
to attack the person than critique the idea, and with your demonstrated penchant for the easy road, your personal attack comes as no surprise.  No matter.  It's just the temper of the times.  I forgive you.  I'm more interested in the ideas people here have about why Wallace gets 48 minutes and Joe Smith gets zero.  Why Tyrus starts and then doesn't even sniff the court the second half.  I believe Skiles is a tormented human being with loads of unresolved personal issues that get in the way of his making good, sound basketball decisions.  I'm open to other theories.  I'd be happy to be shown how his last night's line-ups made basketball sense.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:10 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's not personal
it's just directed at you because you post your barstool wisdom so often.  Joe Smith has a bad knee, which probably flared up over the weekend.  Just because they didn't report doesn't make it some Machiavellian plan on the part of Skiles to mess with players.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 10:26 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Smith tweakedhis knee
or something against the Bobcats.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

SKILES ego is the problem
Skiles and Wallace should just both go away...

by fireskiles on Dec 4, 2007 7:28 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I seem to recall that before the season started
someone here went through all the potential 2guard combinations with Duhon at the point.  Do I remember correctly that there was only one that worked and that everyone else played worse with Duhon as a back court mate?  Is that pattern holding true so far this year?  Is it too early to draw any conclusions?
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 9:33 AM CST   0 recs

82games hasn't posted any
player pair data.  So it's hard to figure all the backcourt combinations out.  But, Hinrich for sure has somehow managed to play even worse when playing SG with Duhon. (9.4 v. 7.3 PER).

http://www.82games.com/0708/07CHI2C.HTM

by Scotter on Dec 4, 2007 5:55 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

notes
He loved Wallace's screens but his offense...not so much. He thinks Du should start over Gordon?! What a weirdo.

Also worth nothing, he mentions the Gasol thing.

Like the Knicks last year, I root for the Lakers and Grizzlies to lose every time just to the chances of us getting their superstars comes easier.

The way Noc has been playing, he's a huge chip.

by Option27 on Dec 4, 2007 10:19 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Duhon purity index
and sit Gordon. Bah!

He did get this right though:

The Bulls' league-worst shooting percentage (34.1 for this game) was not helped by their missing a total of 15 layups. That's one for Griffin; two each for Gordon, Duhon, and Noah; three for Deng, and five for Wallace (including a missed dunk and a ridiculous backhand flip). Also, the Mavs blocked nine more layup attempts.

Plus you can add the times that Wallace recieved the ball in position for a layup and instead just danced around and passed it back out.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 10:23 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Wallace Offense hurts
Last nights Bulls game 1st game I saw entire thing since Det, only watched 1st half of Knicks so I may be off base but it looked to me that the Bulls are hurting due to Wallace not being a threat on the offense end.  Especially ugly was when he was in high post in their zone, they don't have to even guard him as he will not shoot 12ft jump shot and they also want Thomas / Noah to shoot that shot as well.

I know other teams have C or PF who aren't big on the offense end but it seems to me that Wallace is more of a problem for the Bulls because he ends up with the ball in their offense much more.  Maybe also because they don't have dominate scorers and are shooting such low% that Wallace's misses hurt more.  It just seems a problem when Bulls players shoot such a low % at the rim (not just Wallace).  Puts too much pressure on guards when they miss so many layups, short shots.  And Wallace not being threat allows Defense to hedge over to Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Noc on every drive, pick, etc

I guess this leads to question did other teams adjust defense this year vs Bulls?  Or are Bulls offensive playes just playing / shooting worse?  I bet its some of both

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 11:38 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't think his Kukoc comments
are at all fair.  Kukoc's whole career was defined by his willingness to assume a supportive rather than a selfish role in the offense.  It's Toni's legacy that gives legitimacy to the comments Rosen quotes.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:25 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

it must have been
tough for Toni to take a supporting role on a team with low usage scrubs like Jordan and Pippen. Lotta self-control there.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:12 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

When he first came to the U.S.
his nickname was "The Waiter," because of his style of being a facilitator.  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:34 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

really???
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:37 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I can't tell if you're kidding.
Yes, that really was his nickname...although I can only vouch for its translation into English.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:45 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

no way!!!
Next you're going to tell me Jordan was such a good dunker they used to call him 'Air' Jordan. I can't believe it!!!
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 11:48 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

OK. Fine.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:49 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

You're an ass
"My jumper's so smooth it will seduce your girlfriend." -1958ChiTown

by NittanyBull on Dec 4, 2007 7:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

can't argue that
but there's a different kind of assiness involved in mythologizing careers.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 7:33 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Waiter
I always liked that nickname

Big Toni fan, very nice offensive player to have coming off that team's bench.  Loved the fact that he could hit the three at his height and pass the ball

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 4, 2007 11:40 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I liked the name ok, it's just that
it made him seem so wimpy. The name was especially ironic on defense, because Toni played something like the matador defense, only I pictured him with a waiter's outfit and a white napkin over his forearm, providing excellent service to the other team's scorers. "Right this way, sir..."
"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 4, 2007 1:38 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Lotta self-control there
Alec is right.
Toni came to the team in a support role, only to get thrown into the fire right next to pippen when MJ left before he played one game.

So for his first two years in the NBA, Kukoc was very solid as a STARTER, and rightly so.
Coulda started anywhere in the league.

But then when MJ came back, he had to once again take a seat and come off the bench.
But he made the best of it - even winning the 6th man award.
Alot of guys nowdays would just be pissed, sulk alot, bitch to the media and demand to be traded.

And anyone who has any clue at all about ethics, TEAM concept and just plain common sense and courtesy would know that what Toni was forced to do DOES in fact take a good deal of self control.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 4, 2007 4:50 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

heh
"plain common sense and courtesy" aren't exactly your area of expertise.

I don't really care how Toni felt about a reduced role, and his production actually improved after Jordan came back. It's laughable to canonize the guy for sacrifices he probably didn't make, and really didn't have a choice about.  

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 5:01 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

kukoc didn't start his first year
he backed up Horace Grant and Scottie Pippen.  He started the next year for most of the year even after Jordan came back.  The third year Krause traded for Rodman and Kukoc came off of the bench again.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 4, 2007 8:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

that second link didn't work for me
I saw the blurb about Hinrich's new house in the Tribune Redeye (shameful admission that I sometimes read the redeye), and it was worth noting that the accompanying picture was the only good picture I've ever seen of Kirk Hinrich. Belonged on the cover of Iowa Mafioso Quarterly

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 10:27 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hmmm, the link
works for me.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 10:50 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Me too
Does that place come with a garrison to man the watchtower?
Haiku strike is OVER. Crystal ball foresees strong January to right ship and put Bulls over .500. Is crystal ball smoking crack?

by preverbal on Dec 4, 2007 12:43 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

My husband
thinks it looks like that round pad in front of the house looks like a helicopter pad.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 4, 2007 1:25 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

nicht so Schlechtes
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 10:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Matt, maybe if you got out of your room
a bit more, perhaps perfectly common foreign language expressions would strike you more as what they are...perfectly common and ordinary, and not an attempt at anything.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 4, 2007 11:17 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

that
castle is huge!!!

by tyrus4prez on Dec 4, 2007 10:57 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Elkhorn
That really does make him a FIBbie.  

by KT on Dec 4, 2007 12:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

saw it yesterday
and I wondered how someone can own a house in Elkhorn and have it on the other Green Lake. And that there's a 3rd Green Lake. That was confusing.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 4, 2007 1:05 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

There's the town of Green Lake
the county of Green Lake, and 7 lakes called Green in the state of Wisconsin.  At least, 7 big enough to get listed on the official lake list - there's tons of small lakes - 37 alone around in Walworth county.

So yeah, we repeat names.  

by KT on Dec 4, 2007 1:46 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Really? The 'Kirk bought a house' excuse?
How could I not... :^)
"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 4, 2007 1:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs