On our way back to nowhere

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2007 6:14 PM CST in News Comment 48 comments

So the Bulls get two wins against two shit teams. Here is what seems to be the 'interim' direction:

Ben Gordon off the bench. He's playing well. They're playing crappy teams, he can do that, whether he starts or not. And one option keeps Duhon on the bench, so I still like that one better. I will say that with Gordon on the bench Deng is taking more initiative offensively, but does that mean you can't have them both playing?
Frontcourt rotation includes heavy minutes for Wallace and Smith. I can only assume Boylan's initial talk with Wallace was a guarantee of minutes if he just showed he gave a damn. And he at least does that now, but the long minutes mean he'll just be prone to have more possessions (stretching into whole games) to take off. And he's rewarded with higher rebound totals for him to pad his awful stats. (He doesn't know we operate per-possession.) I don't expect him to be benched or buried, but I'd think limiting his playing stints benefit him as well as the team's 'logjam' of frontcourt players. As far as Smith is concerned, his knees will explode by March, but he's been good.
Nocioni and Gray are the first big men off the bench. Gag. Although at least Noah came in the 2nd half of the Knicks game more often instead of the usual 'go small' plan of Skiles. To make matters worse for following this team, Gray enables the Bulls telecast to be even more mind-numbingly annoying. He's proven to be useful, but wishing for more than that is a waste of time.
Paxson deserves to be fired for a 2006 draft that netted him Thomas, Sefolosha, and Khryapa, who apparently have no use on a bad basketball team playing an even worse basketball team. That is an unmitigated disaster.

So maybe it's just a couple games, and the wins against an easy schedule are needed at any cost just to get back in the playoffs.

I used to scoff at the notion that this was a team 'going nowhere', doomed for an early playoff exit and a late-teens draft pick every year. Because there's room to grow, right? Apparently not. This is what we're getting. A team that can beat the Bucks and Knicks, but will get beat by decent teams, and completely picked apart in the playoffs.

When Boylan announced Gordon was coming off the bench, I gave up on the season until a trade. Nothing these past two games have changed that, as after looking at who's getting the time, these games are completely pointless if there's no improvement as a team. And gunning towards a playoff slaughter is just plain uninteresting.

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If you seriously believe that

the Bulls will not turn this around and get the 7/6 spot, then you might as well pull the trigger on some sort of trade

It would be very difficult to keep Deng and Gordon, probably impossible with their current salary demands. Now is the time to garner offers for Gordon, while he's starting to heat it up and his trade value is at its peak.

Myself, I still believe that they can make the 7 or 6 spot. 8 spot is first round fodder for the Celtics at best.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 30, 2007 6:24 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

you think a 7th spot

doesn't mean another ass-kicking by the Pistons?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 30, 2007 6:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls are 2-0 against the Pistons.

Is there a team in the league that knows the Pistons inside and out as well as the Bulls? they've played them millions of times, they know the Pistons strengths and weaknesses, they've had their initial trial run against them in the playoffs, and by then, if they do make the 7 sport for instance, that means they would have made a very drastic turn around and there would be no way the Pistons just steam roll the Bulls.

So to answer your question, no, I do not.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 30, 2007 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ah, but one of those wins...

...came when Tyrus made a significant contribution. At this rate, I'd be impressed if he still remembered how to dribble.

by BenGo07 on Dec 30, 2007 6:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Everybody relax

the bulls are only 4 games out of the 4th seed today. I don't see anybody between the bulls and the 4th spot getting hot and running away with anything. There is plenty of time still.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 30, 2007 9:12 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bulls were 3-1 against Detroit last season

How much did that mean once the playoffs started?

by Big D on Dec 30, 2007 9:53 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Duhon starting

has seemed to result in Kirk playing better. Kirk is always guarding the opponents best guard and then having to run the offense, I do think this allows kirk to be more free and just play basketball, rather than taking it all on his shoulders.

We will get the 7 or 8 seed at least but we're not contenders. deng is a good player but not a great one, I don't see him ever taking "the leap"

If we can Gasol without giving up kirk, ben, or deng, thats a no brainer and will greatly improve the team.

the orlando game will be a good litmus test to see how much this team has really changed post skiles.

-oh, and aside from passing up alridge and roy, paxson's draft choices have been pretty good. take a look at the drafts and there is no one that went lower that I wish we had. what hurt us was dumb dumb Jay Williams killing his career and which lead to have us to draft another pg.

by bullsfaninla on Dec 30, 2007 6:33 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I want to agree with u

Ive posted enough of what i think about the movement of gordon to the bench, and ive read alot of gripes that people have had with gordon on the bench. I also hear alot of Thomas not playing, even though there was a game when noah didnt play. In the end two games is not much of anything to base ANYTHING on. Tomaro is a real test, but also gives u a better look at how boylan coaches. I really believe he has an actual plan with his line up, none of skiles' "ill play the veterans more, despite how bad they are playing. And ill pull out the first person to screw up".

Aaron gray had a bunch of travel calls, and boylan let him play. Ben gordon and deng screwed up a few passes, and boylan let him play. Duhon played well, and boylan sat him down for bg. So with that in mind, boylan must have some sort of plan. I also believe that Thomas will play heavy minutes tomaro, along with thabo playing more than junk minutes.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 30, 2007 6:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't get caught up in the,

"Hinrich has to defend the other team's best guard" garbage. He is posted up by bigger guards and absolutely blown away by faster point guards.

Last year he could at least cancel out his opponent somewhat in the box score. But since he's decided to abandon any semblence of shooting, he's a disaster.

by EdNealy on Dec 30, 2007 7:50 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think Old, Weird and Lame...

hit a new low today, creaming themselves over a dunk by Ben Wallace after the whistle had blown.

by BenGo07 on Dec 30, 2007 6:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

yea..

I finally got league pass this year, and to hear other teams announcers do a great job, often with actual analysis... i love that they are total homers but its refreshing to watch another team's legitimate announcing crew

by bullsfaninla on Dec 30, 2007 6:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Our announcers are full of stupid cliches,

repetitive, and rarely say something new that we have not discussed in depth for weeks on our blog. I am too lazy to turn on the radio but I'm getting close. I scream "the corpse" every time they say "the body".

by chgobr on Dec 30, 2007 7:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what?

are you saying walt frazier is a good announcer and makes insightful comments. I watch the knicks and all he does is throw around some of his catch words like "resilient" and "ferocious." I dont really know what you have in chicago, but I dont find the knicks announcers to be particularly insightful.

by Sambossanova on Dec 30, 2007 9:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Really?

I hate the Knicks, but Breen/Frazier is a pretty solid tandem, in my opinion.
I find most local announcers to be terrible. Homers, blaming the refs for everything, etc. Bulls announcers are bad, but relative to the rest of the league, they're pretty much average.
Try listening to the Celtics announcers (particularly Heinsohn) and see how bad you think they are...

by bleargh on Dec 31, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Breen/Frazier

I second that. I would go a step further and say that Mike Breen and Walt Frazier are fabulous!

by SlamDunk on Dec 31, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's Alive

Regarding the Corpse, it appears it's alive. But beware, the Body may be alive but the head case still lurks in the shadow of death.

by Incognito on Dec 30, 2007 7:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Could Thomas, Sefalosha & Noah

be significantly better on the Blazers?

I think back to Deng, Gordon, Duhon, Nocioni and Hinrich (from the previous year) all getting to play day-one, because the Bulls were so bad back then. I'm watching Rudy Gay start to put together some great games as a starter logging big minutes.

I'm trying to think of how established teams have brought along top picks when they've stumbled upon them. The Lakers had no trouble integrating Worthy years ago, but the Bulls had a unique situation of making the playoffs 2 years in a row and then landing lottery picks. Pax didn't help the cause by drafting 2 players in similar positions with similar non-big man skills.

by EdNealy on Dec 30, 2007 7:58 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The good, bad and the ugly

The good:
1- We won the two games. This was essential for us. We were in a funk and only winning can set up a platform for real change. I thought we looked pretty good against Milwaukee.
2- Hinrich is playing well. Is this related to Gordon coming off the bench? It is possible. He had no fouls today and 2 Friday. He defense has been great. This is the Hinrich we all had hoped for.
3- Ben Gordon is doing better coming off the bench. You may not like it, but for these two games he is a better player off the bench.
4- Luol is back. I don't know why but he has played much better the past two games.
5- Boylan wants this job. He sees this as a once in a lifetime opportunity. He is motivated. So far he is 2-2.
6- Wallace is playing better.
4- Smith is playing well but too much.

The bad:
1- We regressed to an almost exclusive jump-shooting team against the horrible Knicks. We hit our shots which resulted in a win. I'm glad we won but if this is a precursor to how we are going to play we are in big trouble.
2- Noc has been terrible.
3- I don't mind playing Gray to see how he played. Today he was terrible. My optimistic side has a theory. They are working on a trade and showcasing Gray. After today the trade is dead.

The ugly:
1- This leads to TT. What the heck is going on? I do not have a clue. Where is fairness in accountability? So far all I have is hope Boylan has a plan to use TT. Clearly what we do not know is more important than what we know regarding why TT is not playing.

by chgobr on Dec 30, 2007 8:13 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Nervous Breakdown

Is there any real difference between the team being 11-17 or 17-11 or even 20-8? At the end of the day, this team is unable to win a championship as presently constituted. Something really dramatic had to happen between last year and this year for the Bulls to really compete for the NBA crown. As we can see, that "something dramatic" has not happened.

So, does it really matter if BG comes off the bench or starts, if Wallace gets 40 minutes a night, or if Noce is the first guy off the bench at this point? I don't think it does because the problem has nothing to do with coaching.

Bottom line here is that we need other players to make this thing work. I don't know if it's Gasol, Kobe, Oscar Robertson, the ghost of Pistol Pete or whoever, but this bunch is not going to get it done. So, in a way, it does not really matter what Boylan does. This realization does not make me less mad when I see lousy sub patterns or Aaron Gray walk 10 times in 10 minutes, but it at least it will prevent me from becoming as delusional as all of the people who predicted this team to dominate this year.

The Bulls are really better than their record indicates and I think that will turn around. We will make the playoffs as proably a 6 or 7 seed. The only question is whether we get bounced in the first or second round as losing is an inevitability with the current bunch of players.

by Stay Chisel on Dec 30, 2007 8:20 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Well

The Pistons won a championship without a real star. Now Chauncey and Sheed are better than what we got, but we may not be as far off as it seems. I think we can beat the pistons in a 7 game series. Lebron and nobody went to the finals, coming out of the east the bulls are clearly a contender (lets leave out the celtics for the moment, if someone gets hurt for the playoffs theyre done).

Unless we can get Gasol for 2 cents on the dollar, I think the smart move is to go after Brand and/or Arenas during the summer and start formulating the team off of that. And given the success of the wizards without Arenas i will not be surprised if he's gone in a sign in trade next year.

by bullsfaninla on Dec 30, 2007 8:43 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

there's a pretty big difference

between 11-17 and 20-8. The "losing is an inevitability" sentiment is dumb.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Dec 30, 2007 9:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hmmm

Is it really dumb? Do you really believe that this lineup can win an NBA title?

There is a big difference between a team with Lebron James, a Pistons team with 4 All-Stars (but no "superstar") and this Bulls team. My point is that even if we had a winning record right now, this team's post-season fate is no different than last year's (and the year before and the year before).

by Stay Chisel on Dec 31, 2007 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Still Trade for Gasol

If given the chance, do we still go after Gasol, and what are we able to give up now to get him. I mean with the players playing like themselves, i guess stock in alot of our players must have gone up. ESPECIALLY Aaron Gray. Why not give away something involving gray for paul gasol. I know it wont be straight up, but i think we should be fine, so long as we keep the rejuvinated core players.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 30, 2007 10:37 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Gasol

Fill in the blank. Curry:Center as ___:PF.

As for TT. He hasn't completed BB101 yet. Be patient. Brewer, for Utah, spent all last year learning BB101. Now he's playing quite well. The same probably goes for Thabo.

Matt. WHEN Gordon gets traded, I assume you will still mastermind this blog. :)

by hlac on Dec 30, 2007 11:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

hmmm

i think they would trade him partly because they want to change to a fast uptempo style and gray in that case would be an exponential downgrade to anyone on that team save brian cardinal and his awful contract.

by Sambossanova on Dec 31, 2007 12:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Why

does a center have to lead a fast break? What if he merely gets there in time for the half court set, is effective on the pick-and-role, passes out of double teams, and gets rebounds...and travels from time to time. Gray is doing well in BB101. At least he's attending class.

by hlac on Dec 31, 2007 12:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

are they at the point in that class

where they teach you not walk with the ball?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 31, 2007 12:18 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

According to the syllubus

that's the second week of January

by hlac on Dec 31, 2007 12:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sambossanova, pardon me.

I misinterpreted your point. My arguement applies more to the Bulls than Memphis.

by hlac on Dec 31, 2007 12:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We could have

Kobe, JKidd, Dwight, and KG. You guys would still complain.

by gobulls1124 on Dec 31, 2007 12:54 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

This isn't the Bulls' time...

say what you want about the original cast but they are young and have realized a fair amount of success early in their careers. The current team will not go anywhere until the Ben Wallace problem goes away. Playing 4 on 5 clearly does not work. Our fans rejoice when Wallace goes off for 4 and 10 (double digit rebounds!!) in 35 minutes. Opposing teams have bigs that routinely post double doubles against us and no one blinks an eye. We don't have the supporting cast to make up for Big Ben like the Pistons did. Watch him play every possession of a game and it's easy to see why people like Duhon and Pippen have called him out recently. He does not "anchor" the defense. His first mission is not to get into foul trouble and after that it's average defense at best.

The Celts and Pistons will age in the next few years and Lebron doesn't have a supporting cast. Until then we will just have to enjoy the ride and hope Orlando does not become the big draw for all of the talent that wants to win.

by No bull on Dec 31, 2007 1:26 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The interesting thing about Boylan...

...is that it looks like he's going 180 degrees away from Pax's wish to play some of the young players. After firing Skiles, Pax was on the radio talking about getting some PT for the young players, even integrating Sefolosha into the rotation (and Thabo has been AWFUL both this year and last).

To me, I see Boylan's decision to lean even heavier on the veterans as an "eff you, I'm going all-out to win games to help secure my next job" type of move. Think about it - his job for this year is as secure as anyone's - he's not getting fired. By maximizing his team's wins, going against the specific edict of his boss, he improves his chances on the job market this offseason.

At the expense of his current franchise.

by Jivas on Dec 31, 2007 2:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Last Year

Thabo showed spurts of what he could do. There was that krazy (yes! with a K!) layup he did against the lakers while assisting duhon on locking down (arguably) the best player in the game. Then there was the awesome job he did against d wade pre-injury, and in the playoffs (when capt. Kirk was in foul trouble). He hit some long balls (not enough for anyone to remember) and made some good passes (see long balls) it wasnt consistent, but it made u think 'man, this guys got the body, he looks like he has the skills, he just needs the time to BECOME'

Seeing him this year has been a horrid surprise

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 31, 2007 3:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

One rookie is getting consistent minutes

Aaron Gray.

I agree with the big picture view that the kids need to play if we're to have a future.

But that implicitly means all the kids need is to play. The reality might be they're just not good enough.

by Sports2 on Dec 31, 2007 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Something to think about.

Things seem to happen for a reason. So far, TT has been called out by the local columnists and the now former coach. And now the new coach isn't playing him. Isn't it time we realize it might be for a reason. He probably isn't practicing very hard or working on things the Bulls ask him to work on. He's a former #2/4 pick, I'm sure they would like to get him on the court. Maybe he's being sat until he fixes whatever they want him to work on.

And maybe, just maybe, Gordon is better suited to him being on the bench. The last 2 years the Bulls were taken out of their early season funk when Gordon was moved to the bench. And this year, they are now 2-0 since his move to the bench and everyone seems to be playing better. Maybe for whatever odd reason it just works for this team to put him in that position.

Why do most people refuse to acknowledge these possibilities?

by cjurmann on Dec 31, 2007 8:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Not odd

Perhaps it is not odd that a player helps his team more coming off the bench as opposed to starting.

Ben Gordon, with his present offensive weapons, is not an NBA starter.

by NBA Observer on Dec 31, 2007 8:43 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

personally

i don't enjoy the revisionism here. The Bulls do suck (by any measure) and, to this point in the season, have been an utter disappointment. However, talking about firing Paxson for his '06 moves seems a stretch. Trading Curry (who's riding pine in NY) for those picks still looks great in retrospect. Roy and Aldridge are the only other picks one could reasonably argue we should have made and neither could have guaranteed that this team would be any better. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that this team is one player away. If we are going to bag on Paxson for anything, it should be signing Wallace and shipping Chandler (that saving payroll business was a crock of shit). ...and, even if we choose that harpy-magnet, it's really an issue of Skiles (and fans) being disappointed in Tyson as a result of unrealistic expectations.
As far as Ben coming off of the bench, it seems dubious to me too. Why should that make him any better and why can't he and Deng co-exist? However, I can't rightfully complain so far. Even if we've played two crappy teams, has Ben had a better back-to-back performance this year? (I ask b/c I don't honestly know).
I'm not saying we shouldn't complain about the team or the coaching but we're sooo crappy right now that blaming any one person seems to be off the mark. The whole ball of wax is awful.

"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Dec 31, 2007 8:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

The progress report is still gathering data

Lets see how the Boylan Bulls fare against the Orlando Magic at the United Center. We blew out a Knicks team that we should have blown out.

by NBA Observer on Dec 31, 2007 8:46 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Today is Boylan's first real test.

by chgobr on Dec 31, 2007 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I could not find any comment about why TT

did not play yesterday in the Chicago papers.

by chgobr on Dec 31, 2007 9:27 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus

You won't find any comment about why Tyrus didn't play in the Chicago papers, they apparently only take what the Bulls give them. They are not allowed to ask such obvious questions.

by SlamDunk on Dec 31, 2007 1:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

2 guard to trade 4

I like BG as much as the next guy (even think he should be our point instead of Kirk and would prefer to trade Kirk instead of BG in ANY pending trade).

That being said da bulls need to make a trade. I have recently posted about possibly Arenas, Kidd, Wade or Gasol... but there is a new guy on the top of my wish list... Andre Igoudala. He is young, with a high basketball IQ, athletic and can get to the rim and finish amongst the big bodies (BG can too, the refs just hate him) he plays good D and is 6'6. Our back court woes would disappear. I remember hoping that the Bulls draft either Iggy or Deng, it would be great to get both of them. Iggy's contract situation is similar to that of BG and Deng (RFA at the end of the year) so trading for him and not resolving the contract situation would be bad. The question is what needs to be done for this deal to go down. As the 76ers leading scorer they will likely want firepower in return = BG (plus thecontract situation doesn't get worse for the bulls but remains the sameish) +? In the spirit of keeping BG I would try to trade Kirk + Sefo + Joe Smith for iggy. Maybe throw in Ben wallaces contract and take on one of the 76ers bad (yet expiring contracts) .

Bottom line is i would really like to see Igoudala on Bulls... so get it done pax

by Zac23 on Dec 31, 2007 11:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Keep Gordon/Trade Hinrich

If that happened and Gordon was the point, would he still be excused from playing defense??

by hlac on Dec 31, 2007 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Iggy's d is good enough

to the point where Ben could stop playing D... especially if he scores a lot... his offense is his best defense.

by Zac23 on Dec 31, 2007 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Kirk + Sefo + Joe Smith for iggy.

Unless Isiah Thomas becomes the general manager of the 76ers, I don't think they would go for that. I am not sure that even Isiah would go for the throwing in Ben Wallace part.

by Incognito on Dec 31, 2007 12:18 PM CST reply actions 0 recs