Because the Bulls need more underachievers
[I had this topic in mind today before Boylan's media tour made me hate this team. Quickly: benching Gordon sucks, it won't work and even if it 'works' it'll just keep him on the bench, which doesn't work. I won't try and speculate rotations based on whatever spin Boylan used in his interviews, but I will have my minutes minions watching closely.]
Saw this in-person recap of Wednesday's Grizzlies-Hornets game and needless to say this part was interesting:
Underperforming? Getting booed? Unassertive? Bad jumpshooting and passing?
This guy needs to be a Bull.
So I broke open the "Lil' Sam Smith Home Journalism Kit" (with a replica sweater-vest just like the kind my man Sam wears!) that I received this Christmas, and will now use it to start a rumor that gets Pau Gasol in Chicago. (click read more if that tickles your fancy)

First order of business is to quote the above account as evidence of Pau's falling out in Memphis, yet only credit it to a 'Grizzlies observer'.
Next is to speculate on Memphis' money problems: There's been rumblings in the past over Grizzlies owner Michael Heisley wanting to cut losses, with a team that's still high in payroll but in a small market and waning attendance. They've been rumored to be interested in dealing Mike Miller's large contract to Miami so salary paring may be their strategy as the trade deadline approaches.
Now, suggest a random trade scenario: Would the Grizzlies be interested in taking Andres Nocioni, a free agent they pursued this past summer? Throw in a young big like Joakim Noah or Tyrus Thomas, and maybe offer to take a bad contract off their hands like Damon Stoudamire, who has in the past complimented the Bulls style of play.
(I didn't make up that last sentence by the way, remember when he remarked on the Bulls spacing a couple years ago? Just me? I'm sure Skiles remembered, anyway.)
Final step is to just wait until I'm picked up on Hoopshype and then watch as the speculation morphs into rumor through blog telephone. I'll know my mission is complete when Pax weepily shoots down the rumor while complaining about disinformation in the media being unfair to his players.
That sure was fun. But joking about the Smith-icity of this post aside (and now that I looked it up, I more-or-less did the same thing last season), I am genuinely interested in the Bulls acquiring Pau for a low value if he is truly on his way out of Memphis. Now even a low value in terms of trade package it is still a risk for the Bulls, as Gasol's salary tops out at nearly $18m in 2010/2011. However he's 27 now and 31 when that contract's up, so you're paying for his prime years, and even though he's earning a max contract it's not the grandfathered-in $20+m deals like those owed to Bryant, Kidd, or Jermaine O'Neal. Plus the on-court help he brings of low-post scoring, commanding double-teams, being tall, and all the wonderful results that entails.
Chad Ford mentioned in his chat Thursday that he thinks it can be done without including Deng or Gordon (impending free agency may scare the Grizzlies off anyway), and that the Grizzlies need 'toughness and a winner', naming Nocioni (ha!) as exactly that. Ford's idea was similar to mine, with Noc+Noah/Tyrus(they could use defense too) and a first rounder. Works for me.
At least I think it works for me, and perhaps it's my now rampant Tyrus fanboyism keeps me from wanting to include him. A deal like this seems favorable, throw the Griz a first round pick and they can flip Joe Smith to a contender for another expiring deal (or whatever). There are other permutations to go with, for instance using Sefolosha+Griffin instead of Smith, or if the Bulls took a spoonful of sugar before swallowing the contract of Brian Cardinal (he made overpaying role players cool before Nocioni) instead of Stoudamire, it may take even less in terms of 'talent' to get Pau.
The Bulls can then make a run with a lineup of Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Gasol/Wallace, with the primary reserves being Thomas/Sefolosha/Gray and filler from Memphis (you'd have to assume they'd package Juan Carlos Navarro with his countryman in any deal). If they then make the finals (remember: winner = pay the tax. I hope) they can retain everyone. But if they don't, one of Deng or Gordon will likely have to be dealt if each are still commanding 8 figure deals, but it's not like they woudln't get a pretty nice haul from each to help reload. Now the franchise has a 2 year window and after that use Wallace's decaying corpse to perhaps make a run at another big-salaried super-talent. Lather, rinse, repeat.
John Hollinger also commented on Gasol today (seems everyone had the fever), still banging the 'Pax missed out last year' drum, as has been his way. But for all we know at that time it meant Deng+Gordon+Sefolosha+Brown and who knows what else. Doing so now, if Gasol is really getting run out of town and the Grizzlies go into full rebuilding mode, should cost far less. And although this slow start for Gasol is worrisome, and he hasn't exactly shed labels already prevalent on this roster (not a 'go-to' star, soft, etc.), for better or for worse I think he'd fit right in.
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Gasol for noch
by piccolomair on Dec 27, 2007 11:29 PM CST 0 recs
No way the Grizz...
by Jivas on
Dec 27, 2007 11:37 PM CST
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Just swap
by NBA Observer on
Dec 28, 2007 9:39 AM CST
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Agreed - buying low on Pau would be great...
Last week I worked something similar in the Trade Machine - I think it was Gordon/Nocioni/Thomas/filler for Gasol/Kyle Lowry/Hakim Warrick/Cardinal's awful contract, or something along those lines. There's definitely some combination in there that would be a benefit to both teams.
by Jivas on Dec 27, 2007 11:34 PM CST 0 recs
The thing is . .
I'm sure a lot of teams would be in the hunt for him. He would help a lot of teams, not just the Bulls.
So in a dream world, I would love to get Gasol without parting with Gordon or Deng but I think they would have to get into a bidding war with other teams and eventually include one of them
by Option27 on Dec 28, 2007 12:00 AM CST 0 recs
then it should be Gordon
by Azabullsfan on
Dec 28, 2007 12:08 AM CST
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I mean Gordon AND Noce
by Azabullsfan on
Dec 28, 2007 12:10 AM CST
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definately Gordon over Deng
by eross226 on Dec 28, 2007 12:19 AM CST 0 recs
If we trade Tyrus for Gasol...
by 1958ChiTown on Dec 28, 2007 1:31 AM CST 0 recs
I'd help
by cubbybear on
Dec 28, 2007 1:37 AM CST
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Wow.... Why do you two think that?
by Mattchoo on
Dec 28, 2007 8:59 AM CST
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oooh, but having said that
by Mattchoo on
Dec 28, 2007 9:07 AM CST
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During the draft
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 9:24 AM CST
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that could be good news
by Mattchoo on
Dec 28, 2007 9:38 AM CST
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dribbling
that said, i would definitely give him up instead of Thomas in a trade for Gasol. Plus Gasol needs a new Stromile Swift in his life.
by Sambossanova on
Dec 28, 2007 11:26 AM CST
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Trades...
Wallace / Gordon / Noah for Gasol / Navarro / Cardinal.
It may be VERY beneficial for us to try to keep Wallace and have Gasol play along side of him. However, if we do that it may be hard to take any bad contracts Memphis has that they want to get rid of. Also, if we trade Gordon to Memphis, then we need to get back Navarro (similiar player). Nonetheless, would someone be able to check for me the following trades on the trade machine and let me know if they are allowable:
Noch/Griffin/Noah (we'd include a 2nd rd pick) for Gasol/and maybe Navarro if we give the pick?
Noch/Gordon/Noah for Gasol/Navarro
Noch/Thomas/Noah for Gasol and their 1st rd pick
Smith/Gordon/Thomas for Gasol/Navarro
Noch/Smith/Gordon/Noah for Gasol/Navarro/Cardinal
by Mattchoo on Dec 28, 2007 9:29 AM CST 0 recs
Sorry not formated...
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=285~3224~2456~996&teams=29~29~29~4& ;te=&cash= were short 3.6 mil
Noch/Gordon/Noah for Gasol/Navarro
--http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2381~3224~2456~996~3012&teams=29~29~29 ~4~4&te=&cash=Bulls short 90,000
Noch/Thomas/Noah for Gasol and their 1st rd pick
--http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=3224~2456~3032~996&teams=29~29~29~4&am p;te=&cash= Bullse need to cut 1.2 mil
Smith/Gordon/Thomas for Gasol/Navarro
--http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2456~788~3032~996~1778&teams=29~29~29~ 4~4&te=&cash= works!
Noch/Smith/Gordon/Noah for Gasol/Navarro/Cardinal
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2381~3224~2456~788~130~996~1778&teams= 29~29~29~29~4~4~4&te=&cash= works!
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 9:57 AM CST
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or you could have
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 10:00 AM CST
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Thanks for getting the info for me.
by Mattchoo on
Dec 28, 2007 10:31 AM CST
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My impression is that Memphis is as disinchanted
Wallace for Gasol has been looked at before. I do not believe we need to give away Deng or Gordon to get Gasol. I'd start by offering Big Ben for Gasol straight up. Memphis gets significant salary relief. However, we need to do due diligence. Be careful what we wish for. This can be a horrible contract to assume that could jeopardize signing Deng and/or Gordon. If we can dump Big Ben without giving away Deng or Gordon I would risk it.
by chgobr on Dec 28, 2007 9:42 AM CST 0 recs
Putting it all together, I want to see
Nocioni, Tyrus Thomas, Thabo, 1st Round pick to Memphis
Grizzlies trade:
Pau Gasol, JC Navarro
Bulls trade:
Chris Duhon, Ben Wallace
Cavs trade:
Larry Hughes, Donyell Marshall
Bulls
1/2- Hinrich, Gordon, Hughes, Navarro
3- Deng , Griffin, Khyrapa, Nichols
4- Noah, Smith, Marshall
5- Gasol, Gray
by Sports2 on Dec 28, 2007 10:09 AM CST 0 recs
LOL
Not saying it wouldn't be nice, but not sure we're going to see those kinds of changes...
by Freethefro on
Dec 28, 2007 10:12 AM CST
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Heh
The only thing especially rosey about it, though, is getting back JC Navarro. He looks like more than just a throw in to me. I'd probably do it all without him.
I think the Cavs would certainly do the Wallace/Duhon for Hughes/Marshall swap. Without thinking twice. They love Hughes like we love Wallace. But in reality, is Wallace a better player at a more scarce position. With Good and Big Z, they'd have ideal guys to play him with as well.
It'd also save them about $6M total in luxury tax and salary payments, by my calculations
by Sports2 on
Dec 28, 2007 11:24 AM CST
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Some good news
They seem the most desireable from the Grizzlies perspective, anyway. Not so sure where a Gordon-less back court leaves us.
by Freethefro on Dec 28, 2007 10:10 AM CST 0 recs
I still think
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 10:15 AM CST
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and part of that similar argument
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 10:15 AM CST
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From their perspective
by alec on
Dec 28, 2007 10:17 AM CST
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Noah over Thomas makes more sense
In regard to the problem with the backcourt: it may not be as awful as we think. Adding a true point, ala Navarro, means Hinrich would slide over to the shooting guard. Juan Carlos can shoot (435 fg, 385 3P) comparably to Gordon this year (390 fg, 336 3P). And I wonder if Navarro isn't better at traditional point guard duties than Kirk as been this year - by which I mean taking care of the ball, penetrating, distributing.
In a nutshell: the loss of Gordon doesn't leave us with the gaping hole at the 2 that it might seem. Gordon's replacement is Kirk.
And an unexpected windfall might be better point guard play.
by Freethefro on
Dec 28, 2007 10:27 AM CST
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Man
I just need to feel some kinda optimism.
by Freethefro on
Dec 28, 2007 10:34 AM CST
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Navarro isn't a 'true point'
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 11:26 AM CST
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again, it seems like
Yes, I'd rather have Kidd or Paul or Williams or Nash than Hinrich. Because they're better, not because they're true-er.
in conclusion, Duhon sucks.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 12:35 PM CST
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So, according to your "seems like"
by alec on
Dec 28, 2007 12:56 PM CST
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Umm...Mike Miller?
by Jivas on
Dec 28, 2007 10:29 AM CST
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Miller + Gasol = too much$
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 10:38 AM CST
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Yep
A deal can be made here. I don't have any faith in Pax, though. He'd built up a lot of credit with me - on the basis of two drafts - but he's burned through it just as quickly.
by Freethefro on
Dec 28, 2007 10:41 AM CST
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Agreed
Memphis- liked Noce & Noah last year. Gordon would complement Miller & Conley. Also, Gordon's 35 million dollar contract might be affordable to Memphis.
Does anyone absolutely hate this idea? Matt? What are the negatives beside a possible whole at the two guard? Do draft picks get involved anyway or are the possiblility to trade draft picks get involved?
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 10:58 AM CST
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Too bad Krause doesn't run Memphis
by NBA Observer on
Dec 28, 2007 10:53 AM CST
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I wouldn't mind just a straight up
by alec on Dec 28, 2007 10:15 AM CST 0 recs
I don't think any other team regards Thomas
by alec on Dec 28, 2007 10:29 AM CST 0 recs
I'm not interested in trading any of the core.
I know it's ridiculous to plan for the future of signing a free agent, but there's really only one of two ways I want this team to go:
a) Make room to somehow acquire Arenas this off-season while keeping Hinrich, Deng, Thomas and Noah
b) Trade Hinrich to get one or two "bad" contracts worth $8-$10 million that expire in 2009-2010 (plus whatever filler) plus a draft pick or two while keeping Deng, Thomas, Noah and Gray and hope to sign LeBron James. The way it's currently set up, giving James a max contract from his age 26 years on would probably be one of the best investments possible. While it's a huge gamble to pin the hopes on the projection of guys 23 and younger and signing a player 3 years away, I find it hard to believe that the five player "core" (Noah or Gray for 6th man of the year? hehe) doesn't make it to the NBA finals AT LEAST twice, and maybe for many consecutive years.
I'm definitely willing to take two to three steps back to 7 to 8 steps forward---or whatever cliche.
by tyger1147 on Dec 28, 2007 10:33 AM CST 0 recs
Why won't people give up on this idea?
by snley on
Dec 28, 2007 10:43 AM CST
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Need to clarify one point
by snley on
Dec 28, 2007 10:44 AM CST
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exactly
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 10:51 AM CST
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Who said to trade Wallace?
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 11:05 AM CST
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Well, same year they can opt out anyway.
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 11:05 AM CST
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I think we're on the same page
I think that's a more practical way to get a top-level impending free agent than hording cap space (since unless they want to be really bad, they won't be under the cap) and hoping a player will take less money to sign with them. If they instead trade for a max player, they get to sign him to the highest possible extension.
As far as your first idea, there's no way the Bulls are getting under the cap anytime soon.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Dec 28, 2007 11:22 AM CST
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Okay.
If they hold onto to Wallace, the only big contracts will be Hinrich, Nocioni, Deng and whatever the situation with Gordon turns out to be. Hinrich + Nocioni could be used in that sign-and-trade leaving the big contracts as James, Deng, Tyrus's extension and then whatever Noah et. al demand.
Also, I understand that those players made their contracts because the CBA expires after the 2010/2011 season, but I think that can only help the Bulls.
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 11:35 AM CST
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Lack of foresight by you.
B1) Most guys sign w/ their teams or do sign-and-trades because other teams never have the money to sign them out right. Until someone contradicts me, I'm going to assume that losing $23.5 million in that year would help
--BUT--
B2) If that doesn't work, they can keep Hinrich and there's always Nocioni to work both into a sign-and-trade (plus cash and draft picks).
C) The "second-tier" free agent could include Dwyane Wade. I'm okay with that.
D) There's absolutely NO DISASTER waiting to happen because all I've said is to hold on to Wallace's contract (it only gets more valuable the closer to its expiration) forgoing the trade for Gasol. I think the risk of a negative (waiting vs. trading) is about equal w/ one having a much higher reward.
What is the potential disaster/failure here?
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 11:23 AM CST
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Huh?
B) You missed my point, most players you want to give that kind of money to won't do it because they can get even more money by sign and trade or resigning. You don't want that to work b/c most of the time when it does "work" the money goes to a player who does not deserve it. Keeping contracts/assets to sign and trade with certainly helps, but when your giving away contracts on a sign and trade you usually don't want the contracts to be for useful players.
C) In who's world is Dwayne Wade a second-tier free agent? Unless he's unable to prove to keep himself healthy, he will be as coveted as LeBron. If he can't stay healthy or his skills/contributions erode due to his playing style, you shouldn't want to pay him as a first tier player.
D) There's nothing wrong with holding onto Wallace's contract, but eschewing an opportunity to improve your team simply for a pipe dream 3 years from now is folly. Honestly, the only silver lining I saw from the day Paxson signed Wallace was that when his contract came close to expiring, it would eventually be used to acquire someone else.
by snley on
Dec 28, 2007 12:27 PM CST
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re-read other stuff I've written
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 1:20 PM CST
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I know sarcasm...
by snley on
Dec 28, 2007 2:51 PM CST
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And you're bland.
by tyger1147 on
Dec 28, 2007 4:08 PM CST
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Trying to get back on topic...
If the Bulls, trade Noce, Noah, & BG for Gasol and Lowery + draft pick (There #1 this year, next or right to swap), they fill a whole. You extend Deng, then Tyrus in a few years to replace Ben. Then, they only have 1 major whole to fill at SG. Is there any player in free agency this year that could step in for the next few years and make this team a real contender? Also, there is the possibility of drafting a SG but that is more of a longterm project. Bottom line this team needs to be shaked up and a move has to be done before the draft to try and address a need.
by Jesse07 on Dec 28, 2007 12:01 PM CST 0 recs
Lets be honest here
by davebino on Dec 28, 2007 12:13 PM CST 0 recs
quite frankly
by Orange Juice on
Dec 28, 2007 12:59 PM CST
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Without a doubt, Gasol would be the best
by alec on
Dec 28, 2007 1:14 PM CST
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and with Duhon starting...
by davebino on Dec 28, 2007 12:17 PM CST 0 recs
I don't know
Does anyone seriously think Ben Gordon is worth more money than Manu Ginobili?
by NBA Observer on
Dec 28, 2007 12:54 PM CST
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If you're wondering where
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/12/28/125939/94
And if you want to laugh at NBAObserver's Phoenix trade idea, go here:
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/12/28/124739/05
[We'll see if this 'works'. Maybe I'm tinkering too much a la Skiles. But they were getting quite a few comments so I thought they deserved their own space. At least with the Hughes one. The Phoenix one I just didn't like looking at after my brilliant Gasol post :) ]
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2007 12:20 PM CST 0 recs
It was a truly remarkable thread
by alec on
Dec 28, 2007 12:58 PM CST
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FYI
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2007 12:42 PM CST 0 recs
Just a thought
by Jesse07 on
Dec 28, 2007 12:49 PM CST
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Grizz fan reaction:
Matt, you keep saying you don't want to give up the core. Who do you consider the core? I think some people's core is different than others.
My core of the team in order of importance is: Deng, Hinrich, Gordon, Thomas, Nocioni (and then possibly Wallace)
by Mattchoo on
Dec 28, 2007 12:56 PM CST
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I guess it's different each time
in this case I moved on to whether or not I'd want to include Thomas or Noah.
by y


