Why all the talk about moving Gordon back to the bench?

by Big D on Dec 26, 2007 1:58 PM CST

K.C. Johnson of the Trib reports that the Bulls have discussed moving Ben Gordon back to the sixth-man role. I've always thought that all the talk about Gordon being "better suited" to coming off the bench was pretty silly. Maybe on an ideal team you'd like to start a bigger 2-guard and bring Gordon off the bench, but in case anyone hasn't noticed so far this season, the Bulls aren't exactly an ideal team.

It's telling that the article doesn't mention who would start in Gordon's place, because the Bulls have no one better than Gordon or even close who deserves to start ahead of him. Hell, even Skiles hadn't started Duhon in about a year. Going back to the Hinrich-Duhon backcourt would really be going backwards, for reasons that have been discussed on here seemingly forever.

Thabo was supposed to be the Mythical Big 2-Guard Who Can Defend and Shoot (at least I think that's what the acronym was), but he's done absolutely nothing to show he deserves to start ahead of Gordon. Maybe he'll start playing looser now that Skiles is gone, but I'd like to see him actually do it before we talk about starting him. As bad as he's played this year, immediately throwing him into the starting lineup would really send a terrible message (not to mention it would also hurt the Bulls if he didn't start playing much, much better).

I guess that leaves Deng, but is he really quick enough or a good enough ballhandler to play guard full-time? It's one thing to give him a few spot minutes at the 2 when you're going big, but playing him there most of the time is a different story.

And please, spare me the cliches about how you don't always start your best players. If you bring Gordon off the bench, he won't be playing the first six minutes of the first and third quarter (barring foul trouble), so it would almost certainly mean he'd play fewer minutes than the 35.7 minutes per game he's played this season. As offensively challenged as the Bulls have been this season, intentionally giving your best scorer fewer minutes is like playing with one hand tied behind your back. Maybe it would be a different story if the Bulls had an alternative who's even close to Gordon offensively, but right now they don't. Until they do, they probably ought to start their best players.

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I think you answered your own question.

KC implies Deng would move to the 2 and post up SG's. This would give both Noah and Tyrus pt together. I think they have every intention of sticking with Wallace.

by alec on Dec 26, 2007 2:12 PM CST 0 recs

I don't get it either

they're the worst offensive team in basketball, so why sit your best offensive player (this year notwithstanding)?

AND move one of your other best players out of position.

Deng can be the backup 2-guard to take that spot from Duhon (since Thabo won't) when Gordon sits. I don't like the 'spot the other team a 7 point lead' starting lineup.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 26, 2007 2:16 PM CST 0 recs

Remember, the pre-training camp quotes,

which probably came from Paxson and Skiles brainstorming over the summer, had Gordon getting minutes at the point. Then, when the season started, Skiles ignored the idea, and went right to his vets in their usual places.

Also, if you don't move one of your best players out of position (I assume you're referring to Deng playing 2), how are you going to get both Noah and TT pt together...unless you sit Wallace, which I don't think Paxson has any plan of doing.

by alec on Dec 26, 2007 2:23 PM CST up 0 recs

Tyrus plays 4, Noah plays 5

Noah backs up Wallace.

Noc and Smith get the big minute cuts.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 26, 2007 2:32 PM CST up 0 recs

I think that makes sense.

Noah should still get plenty of minutes...maybe even build them if he earns it over the course of the remainder of the season.

by alec on Dec 26, 2007 2:43 PM CST up 0 recs

Because of three key words

The three key words in your comment are "this year notwithstanding". So far this year, Gordon has been a shooting guard that can't shoot. He's undersized and is a liability on defense, so unless he's shooting the ball well, I don't see what's wrong with benching him. Maybe it will light a fire under his ass. It's worked before.

by RM on Dec 28, 2007 1:56 PM CST up 0 recs

duhon, hinrich, and sefolosha

are even less capable of fulfilling the 'shoot' part of it. make sense, fire starter?

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Dec 28, 2007 3:40 PM CST up 0 recs

Because he is a horrendous defensive liability

and he gets the team (and himself) in needless early foul trouble.

As bad as it has been in past seasons, Gordon's perimeter defense has somehow been even more abominable this year.

"We goin' to the 'ship!" - LSU IS IN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!

by 1958ChiTown on Dec 26, 2007 2:33 PM CST 0 recs

I have to agree

If Gordon isn't scoring consistently, he's a huge defensive liability.

I am 100 percent for benching Gordon until he proves that he deserves to start again.

I would rather see a starting back court of Hinrich/Duhon at this point.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 26, 2007 2:47 PM CST up 0 recs

good post

being the leader of the mythical BG fan club I couldn't have said it any better myself.

When I read that this morning, I wondered where KC was going with that line...because like you, I noticed he added no info of who could possibly be Gordon's replacement.

I think it would be more than unwise for Pete, Boylan, or Pax to make any knee-jerk lineup changes right now until things settle down.

Just play everyone where they are right now...no time for Lu, Thabo, or anyone else to try to "learn" the play the 2...get the ship righted first

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 26, 2007 2:51 PM CST 0 recs

Gordon in San Antonio

Lets hope Gordon doesn't draw the Tony Parker assignment. Lets also hope that when Parker and Ginobili are on the floor together BG is resting on the bench.

But you know what? Gordon's defensive liabilities can disappear if he's electric on offense.

by NBA Observer on Dec 26, 2007 3:18 PM CST up 0 recs

Gordon on Parker

For some reason, I can't see Kirk doing THAT much better guarding Parker than BG. People always talk about Ben getting in early foul trouble, it seems to happen to Kirk just as often.

I'd like to see tons of TEAM defense tonight...actually even a zone...pack it in and make Parker beat you hitting jumpers. I'd live with the Spurs winning that way rather than just letting Duncan walk all over us.

Ginobli sounds doubtful for tonight, hopefully that's the case.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 26, 2007 3:25 PM CST up 0 recs

The difference

Kirk is guarding players that are expected to draw fouls. Being primary scorers this is what they do.

BG is usually guarding a player initiating the offense and then finding a place to camp out. He's awful at defending the perimeter screen offense. He's not fast enough to go around screens and catch up and he's not tall enough and also lacks a decent reach to contest shots from players he may not be able to catch physically.

The one consolation with the Spurs is that they don't start Manu. This can allow Manu to come off the bench and Duhon can enter at the same time for the defensive assignment.

All I can tell you is that BG cannot guard Parker or Manu.

by NBA Observer on Dec 26, 2007 3:31 PM CST up 0 recs

you're right

about the screening part, but to me, that's where the scouting, coaching, and/or player recognition is absolutely horrible. Lot's of time it's just bad defensive positioning.

Both Ben and Kirk have a bad habit of going under the screen when they should go on top or going on top of the screen when they should go under. By now they should know who is a driver and who is a shooter.

Whomever is guarding Parker tonight, they should just sit under the screen all night long.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 26, 2007 3:44 PM CST up 0 recs

hmmm

I hate it when I'm right...early foul trouble for BG and Kirk...28 points by Parker...Hinrich is chasing him OVER the screen all night long...terrible

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 27, 2007 11:16 AM CST up 0 recs

If that means starting Smith,

then I disagree. I don't mind putting the Deng to 2 on hold, but I definitley want to see TT in the starting line-up immediately.

by alec on Dec 26, 2007 3:20 PM CST up 0 recs

I'd agree on any other night

except for tonight...two pump fakes from Duncan and TT has two immediate fouls. Start Smith tonight.

Smith has seemed to disappear in the last couple of games, though I think that was just a by-product of Skiles line-up juggling. I'd give him a few more games to see if he can get back on track.

If not, then I'd say by the Orlando or Charlotte game TT should be starting.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 26, 2007 3:29 PM CST up 0 recs

Agree

Start Joe Smith. Get Tyrus ready to enter. As soon as Pop goes to Matt Bonner Tyrus should enter the game immediately.

What you must expect from Smith is some early offense in the paint to draw some fouls and make Pop go to Bonner sooner than he wants to.

Make Pop overcoach the game.

by NBA Observer on Dec 26, 2007 3:33 PM CST up 0 recs

Bonner

I agree with the pumpfake Duncan idea, but the thing I don't like about Tyrus on shooters is he sags to far when he doesn't have too, and he leaves them with good looks. Noce is another one who falls in this category.

by Jesse07 on Dec 26, 2007 3:50 PM CST up 0 recs

ha, sadly, you're probably right about that.

by alec on Dec 26, 2007 3:40 PM CST up 0 recs

Last year the game the Bulls beat

the Spurs. Thomas started for an injured Wallace and actually bothered Duncan when he guarded him. Thomas had 8 points, 8 rebounds, 5 blocks, 2 turnovers, and 3 fouls in 22 minutes. I'd much rather see Thomas guard Duncan than Bonner.

by Scotter on Dec 26, 2007 4:02 PM CST up 0 recs

I'll say it just to peeve people off

Matt Bonner, the rich man's Nocioni.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 26, 2007 4:28 PM CST up 0 recs

C'mon, Matt...

Bonner doesn't have near the flopability of Noce.

by ChrisRobin on Dec 27, 2007 6:41 AM CST up 0 recs

Here's why you BG should be benched

He hasn't been effective on offense. BG is really the key to the offense because he is the one causing all the matchup problems, both for and against the Bulls. If he is aggressive and effective, he swings the matchups in favor of the bulls, if he isn't, he becomes the hole in the bulls defense.

As far as being the bulls best scorer, BG isn't. Deng is much more efficient and consistent and therefore IMHO a better scorer. BG hasn't even been a good shooter this year. If BG was a good scorer, why is he so ineffective at the end of quarters?

As far as Skiles getting killed for being too loyal to Wallace in terms of minutes, he should get as much heat for being too loyal to BG. BG is only scoring 23.6 pts/48 min, last year he scored 31.1/48. He's also taking 8 more shots per game to get those points. BG's inefficienct play is also a big reason why Joe Smith and Noc have played so much at the expense of Noah and Thomas, since they are better offensively and the bulls are constantly behind.

The big problem with benching BG is that is usually means putting in his primary backup, Hinrich. Hinrich isn't a 2 guard. The only way to make the bulls better by benching Gordon is to move Deng to the 2 and putting Tyrus at the 3, where Tyrus seems to want to be. An even more remote possibility now is the emergence of Thabo, but he really needs to turns things around.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 26, 2007 5:09 PM CST 0 recs

Ignore the

8 shots per game difference, I was looking at the wrong guy...

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 26, 2007 5:52 PM CST up 0 recs

there's a better metric anyway

USG-r.

Deng is at a career high, and Gordon at a career low.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 26, 2007 6:21 PM CST up 0 recs

so... uh...

Deng is using .3 less possessions than Gordon this season, and the result hasn't been that great for either player. In terms of 'spacing' Deng isn't going to find many openings in the lane when Gordon doesn't even have the ball. If you believe the Gordon H8terzz, defenders don't bother with him when he isn't hitting shots, but he's not even threatening with a much lower USG-r.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 26, 2007 6:28 PM CST up 0 recs

You're right about usg

But Deng is having a much better season. At least so far.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 26, 2007 6:52 PM CST up 0 recs

to bench Gordon is to trade him

I'd rather take my chances on staying the course with Gordon and hoping he gets back to normal than sitting him and effectively finishing his career as a Bull, and likely not helping his value either (although I'd assume there are plenty of teams who value him as a starter regardless).

The scorer/shooter thing is semantics, and so is his effectiveness compared to Deng. He scores points, for a team that needs points. Again, this year notwithstanding.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 26, 2007 5:56 PM CST up 0 recs

Deng isn't a 2 guard either

And Thomas isn't a small forward, however much he may want to be one. You're going to move two players out of position just to bench Gordon?

by Big D on Dec 26, 2007 6:14 PM CST up 0 recs

Deng

has bad handles and seems suited well at SF. Actually Tyrus might be a better SG(2) than Deng.

Tyrus loves to bring the ball up court and can make decent passes. He's improving his 18 footer, but both him and Deng are not a 3pt threat, that's Noc's specialty.

by exult463 on Dec 26, 2007 5:45 PM CST 0 recs

Too early for T-Time

Deng does have bad handles, and i dont see him working too well on the perimeter. If you want someone other than our designated guards than maybe Noch is the best answer. YES, i do realize he is not THE answer, nor a good answer, but i really feel he may be better than deng at the 2, at least offensively. Sure, deng is the better scorer hands down, but noch (and his chucking ways) can shoot from the perimeter and isnt afraid of contact while driving in.

Someone pointed out that noch on d would lead to problems when at the 2. Going through screens, and his inane ability to wander on defense. To keep things short, i dont think he would be any more of a liability than gordon is, and his peskiness may work more in favor, plus him doubling up with whoever is our pf would create an extra hassle that niether thabo or gordon or duhon or even hinrich could ever create, just due to nochs size and habit of playing the pf of other teams. Guys like vince carter or jefferson or even kobe, cant simply push him around as easily as the rest of our gaurds, and its not that easy to guard a guy whos more frantic than a headless chicken.

By the way, the initial proposal was not done by me, but by someone else on this blog...i just dont remember who and i dont want to pretend to take credit for some idea that is not mine. Although i truly like this idea.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 26, 2007 6:55 PM CST up 0 recs

The perfect move

... for lowering their contract values. ;)

Putting Gordon on the bench and Deng at the 2 manages to expose both of them in the worst possible ways. Gordon gets the one dimensional bench guy rap and Deng gets his slowness and lack of handle highlighted on a nightly basis. Ick.

Firing a coach is a great time to go around and spend a couple weeks and figuring out, in practice, why 95% of the coffee table ideas you think about your team are never going to work.

by Sports2 on Dec 26, 2007 7:32 PM CST 0 recs

Ben Gordon is one dimensional

That's the problem. He can be a great shooter, but he doesn't have the slashing skills and speed combination that can allow a 6'1" player to be effective at scoring the basketball. A small guard must have speed and skill to force defenders to respect their ability to draw the foul. BG doesn't have this game.

Ben can hit wide open shots all day long in the corner and on the wings, but someone has to set him up for these shots. That either comes from a low post big man or a PG like Tony Parker carving up defenses.

Willie Green is more effective handling the basketball than Ben Gordon.

by NBA Observer on Dec 27, 2007 10:12 AM CST up 0 recs

The crystal ball says

Gordon coming off of the bench is fine as long as he gets starters minutes (he had 35 to Du's 22). last nights game against the Bucs shows why I think he is the most valuable bull regardless of whether or not he comes off of the bench.

Not being in Chi town I don't get to see all of the games, but from what I have seen when BG starts all of the other starters seem to be of the mindset that they can score just as well as BG and should shoot the ball as much as if not more than him. But When he comes off of the bench everybody on the bulls understands it is Ben's time to shoot and they play accordingly and come back from whatever deficit to at least make it a competitive 4th Q. Maybe it is wearing down defenses or maybe it is the matchups, but as long as he keeps shooting the lights out I say keep him coming off of the bench and give him extra/starter minutes.

Crystal ball stuff (via Article in the trib. by K.C. "Free Agency may beckon to Gordon"): Bulls don't trade him "make a qualifying offer of $6.4 million to keep Gordon as a restricted free agent next off-season. That would allow them to match any offers he might receive next summer.

The Bulls also can negotiate a long-term extension with Gordon next summer."

by Zac23 on Dec 29, 2007 10:57 AM CST 0 recs

I'd disagree slightly

I think when BG comes off of the bench his mindset is more aggressive, at least in the last two games. I think he has the the respect of all his teammates and they always look to him for scoring or a tough shot. I don't see anybody hanging their head when he takes one of his end of quarter bricks like the Knicks guys do when one of them screwed up. I actually think the problem this season has been that he has deferred too much as a starter.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 30, 2007 10:09 PM CST up 0 recs