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Open Game Thread #24: Bulls at Boston Celtics

[Big thanks to diabolo for today's preview. -Matt]

Tonight, the Bulls play at the "previously known as Boston Garden", to play a scary (so far) Celtics squad boasting the best record in the league after nearly two months of action.

The Celtics will be plenty motivated after losing their last game on the last possession against Detroit. They will not want to start their first losing streak of the season. Meanwhile, the Bulls are trying to find their rythm this year (about time really) and want to finally figure out again how to put a few wins in a row feels like.

Larry Brown (the Bulls next coach?) has a few interesting things to say about this particular game on NBA.com :

On the difference between defending the Bulls or Pistons (for Boston):

"The biggest thing for Boston to combat is that Chicago plays an uptempo style that is lacking a true post-up game. When you play Chicago, you have to keep them out of transition. If they get a lot of easy baskets, similar to Detroit, it makes their halfcourt that much better. So if you're Boston, you really have to defend the pick and roll because the Bulls do that multiple times in possessions. Then you have to keep people in front of you because Chicago's game is penetrate and kick. If you have to help, you usually leave open shots." On the Bulls being back on track or not : "Now they have started to play better and more consistently. Their rookie Aaron Gray has given them a big boost off the bench the last few games. Tyrus Thomas has played better and so has Joakim Noah. It seems like they're starting to play the way everyone expected them to, but again, if they don't make outside shots, it's usually pretty difficult for them to beat the better teams." On the question if teams relying on the perimeter like the Bulls can advance far in the playoffs (if they make it there): "I think they can if they have a good defense. I've always thought that it's overrated to say you need a post presence. When you look at Chicago with Ben Wallace, Tyrus Thomas, Joakim Noah, and Joe Smith, you've got guys with length. If they can rebound effectively on the offensive glass then they'll be ok. They can get by like that." On the match-up with Boston tonight: "Deng and Paul Pierce are the keys in my mind. Both can score the ball, they both are underrated rebounders, they both have the ability to get to the free throw line and they will have to guard each other. I will be curious to see which one is able to guard the other one and which one has success offensively."
"With Wallace out, Andres Nocioni may have to guard Kevin Garnett. If that happens, he is giving up a lot of size. For anybody to guard Kevin it is a tough matchup, but it would be very, very difficult for Nocioni to stay out of foul trouble if he has to guard him. However, with that in mind, Kevin has to go out and guard Nocioni too, and Nocioni can shoot from deep, which is a factor." My opinion about that game? Sure, it would be great for the Bulls to beat the Celtics, and could provide a boost to their confidence, but I don't necessarily see this game as a key for the Bulls future success. They don't really have much to lose in this game. What I'd much rather like to see, for now, is the Bulls starting to win "somewhat" constantly and easily against lesser opponents, and then when come mid-season and then (hopefully) Playoffs time, you can start talking about matching up with those top teams as the next step.

As Joakim and Thabo would say : "ne mettez pas la charrue avant les boeufs", which in English could be translated as "(literaly) don't put the trailer before the buffalo or (another lame attempt at English) start building the foundation before putting the roof on top".

Then again, I'm not against winning tonight too.

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Great preview!!!
this is better than anything you will see in the Chicago papers.

by chgobr on Dec 21, 2007 1:19 PM CST   0 recs

Thanks, Diablo.
What's that Coach's Corner?  Is it Larry Brown every time?  Is it just the ESPN game?  I might suggest that Matt, et al, shield their eyes from it today, as Larry Brown had a lot of nice things to say about Aaron Gray.  Just kidding! (not about the Larry Brown part, though)

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 1:48 PM CST   0 recs

ending this once and for all
there. now stop it. it was one game. i just linked to 42 games that didn't make a goddamn difference in an extra unremarkable career.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 2:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Fine.
I don't mean to be a jerk about it...well, maybe a little bit of one.  I promise not to be the first to bring up Gray's name for the rest of the year.  But just answer this before I let it go--how many games, or what, name your criteria, do you need to see out of Gray before we can begin to make a reasonable assessment of what he brings the team?

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 2:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

for me, it's 4 months.
Tyrus gets 4 years.

This whole Gray thing is so sad, and indicitive of a team that's completely fallen below expectations. Maybe that's why I try and pee on any excitement over it.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 2:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'm the negative Nancy and I'm hoping
Gray becomes the lumbering NBA surprise.  He is a big 7' 1".  I know he was playing in front of his parents Wednesday and this may be a one game phenom but he does seem to have the height, strength and desire to get rebounds as well as have significant low post skills.  What I find interesting is the positive comments from the players documented in another diary.  Matt - if he can demand double-team consideration, our guards could rise to our expectations.  I may be singing a different tune tomorrow, but at least until 6:10 tonight I've got hope.

by chgobr on Dec 21, 2007 3:04 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

stuff your promises in a sack
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 3:01 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

fine. no promises.
What do you need to see out of Gray...or, let me put it this way, is there anything he can do that would demonstrate to you that he's not just another extra unremarkable nobody?  You've put him in a box and nothing will make you let him out?  

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 3:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Put up 20-10 every night for a month straight?
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 21, 2007 3:16 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

We used to have a guy who did that....

Then we sent him to LA for a BEAN POLE!

Sorry, still a little bitter.  :P

"Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." -George Raveling

by cubbybear on Dec 21, 2007 4:01 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

oh you're just a pinnacle of reason
It's totally unreasonable to not be excited, and be annoyed at the excitement over a guy who had an okay performance against a busted up Wiz squad... while the best rookie on the team tried to decipher the message Skiles was sending with a DNP.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 4:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's a ridiculous argument
I could link to Alonzo Mourning's stats, or Gilbert Arenas',  and it would have as little relevance as Othella.

by rexisourqb on Dec 21, 2007 6:53 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Bulls can win this
I had this game penciled in as an expected loss before the season, but the way we played Boston in Chicago, despite our pathetic start, was effective.  Three things hurt us in the first matchup.
  1. Garnett down the stretch.  He made every 4th quarter shot he had to make.
  2. Low Chicago FG%
  3. The small two, Glen Davis and Rajon Rondo, put up way better numbers than Chicago's defense can afford to allow.  Together they were 12-16 from the field, pulled in 4 OREB, 19 TREB, and had 5 assists.  Davis's buckets were OREB putbacks with Ben "the Statue" Wallace doing his best "no look defense" impersonation.
Pierce and Allen were 7 of 26 from the field, but 13 of 13 from the line.

So what do you do to win?

  1. Force Rondo to pass to Pierce.  The more Pierce has the ball the better your chances of defeating the Celtics.  He can't pass on open shots.  He thinks his dribble penetration game is excellent, but it's obvious he knows it's not as strong as it is and makes up for that with free throw begging arm flailing.
  2. Run.  Garnett is only an effective defender helping improve his teammates defense in half court sets.  In transition, Pierce and Allen aren't running back to stop anyone.
  3. Make Doc Rivers coach.  Jumping out early is a good way to force adjustments.
In the Chicago meeting the Celtics turned it over 17 times to the Bulls 9.  Despite this glaring advantage the Celtics managed to double our fast break point total of 5.

by NBA Observer on Dec 21, 2007 1:58 PM CST   0 recs

Agreed on the
Rondo point.

I thought he really got the Celts going and helped them get off to the late ending surge.

Let's hope the other under-performing Ben (Gordon) has a better shooting performance or is at least benched for a player that can more adequately guard Rondo.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 21, 2007 2:16 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Why not go big?
Skiles has been complaining about not enough minutes for too many guys.  Fine, try going with a line up of Hinrich, Deng, Noce, Thomas, Noah (preferred, though we know he'll go w/ Gray).  Not saying this should be the starting line up or one that gets a lot of minutes together.  Just, with Gordon struggling and guys needing minutes, this is a reasonable, creative way to do it.  Sure beats the hell out of those crappy "small ball" line ups he pulls out of his ass.

by snley on Dec 21, 2007 2:40 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

The Bulls should have won the first game.
They just couldn't hit their shots. I REALLY hope Hubie Brown calls this game. I think he is a basketball genius. You can tell how excited he gets when talking about the Bulls, especially Nocioni...I would rather Hubie coach instead of Larry Brown, if Skiles did get canned....speaking of which, does anyone remember how Jeff Van Gundy called him a great coach and said he would have a job tomorrow if he did get fired?....KEPP SKILES, FIRE THE BENS...thanks, happy holidays everyone...

by SlickRick76 on Dec 21, 2007 2:38 PM CST   0 recs

Sounds Like A Great Idea!
Keep the horrible coach, trade 25 points a game, and keep Hinrich the Bum.  We're sure to win then!

by thurlawmen50 on Dec 21, 2007 3:13 PM CST   0 recs

What makes him a horrible coach?
Just because you think so? I think I'll take Van Gundy's word on this....Merry Christmas pal!

by SlickRick76 on Dec 21, 2007 3:16 PM CST   0 recs

Just because he'd be immediately picked-up
by another team doesn't make him the right coach for this team, either.  It's not necessarily a bad thing for old coaches to move out and new coaches to move in.  In the Bulls case, Skiles may have too much at stake with Wallace and Smith to be able to sit them and give the younger guys a real opportunity.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 3:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Well Let's See...
He clashes with everyone on the team that has an opinion that differs from his, he does not let the "futures" of the team get an opportunity to play and get better during game situations, and no big name star really wants to play for him...horrible coach.

by thurlawmen50 on Dec 21, 2007 3:24 PM CST   0 recs

If
this were about thirty years ago, I'm sure people would agree with his coaching, but this is the wrong day and age.

by thurlawmen50 on Dec 21, 2007 3:26 PM CST   0 recs

Wow this thread
went down hill in a hurry. Let's see, if they win Gray had nothing to do with it and if they lose it will be all his fault. That pretty much covers it.

GO BULLS!!!

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 3:48 PM CST   0 recs

If they win and Gray plays well
good.

If they win and Gray plays like crap, good.

If they lose and Gray plays well, don't care (how well could he possibly do).

If Aaron Gray plays well for several months, I'll be ready to give him 20 minutes.

If Aaron Gray gets 20 minutes and the team keeps at their terrible-ness, regardless of his sweet baby hook, I'll be super peeved.

If Aaron Gray gets 20 minutes and the team goes on a hell of a roll, I'll bow to his awesomeness.

I don't get why people can't just be happy with him doing what he can. Instead he has to be the answer to all our prayers. This team was supposed to make a run at the finals for chrissakes. I guess I don't hate Aaron Gray, just the symbol he represents...it's even worse than what Nocioni represents, because Nocioni is at least a proven slightly-above-average basketball player. Does this happen with fans of other teams?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 3:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Oh, come now. Sue can learn.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 21, 2007 4:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Sadly Matt
it doesn't matter what minutes anyone of us would give him. Skiles is the one doling out the minutes.

All I'm saying is he played well on Wed. night and deserves some recognition for that. If he continues to play like that good too. If he doesn't he won't be playing.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 4:53 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

A quote from Mr. Brown...
"With Wallace out, Andres Nocioni may have to guard Kevin Garnett."

I know Nocioni is the more experienced player, but wouldn't it be a better matchup to put a taller player on Garnett like Noah or TT? Just seems to me like Noc would get owned all night.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 21, 2007 3:49 PM CST   0 recs

of course he would
They could try Joe Smith on him to start, then Noah, maybe some Luol.

Skiles will coach to make sure we're fighting an uphill battle. Makes the summit more satisfying.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 3:52 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't see any summit.
"Fans never fall asleep at our games, because they're afraid they might get hit by a pass." -George Raveling

by cubbybear on Dec 21, 2007 4:03 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

no kidding
Am I the only one thinking the Bulls are going to be embarassed tonight?

That Aaron Gray will come in for no reason (The C's don't have a similarly big slow dude to guard) and show just how far the talent gap is between the 2 teams?

Maybe it's just been the day's conversation that has me feeling this way. Again, this team seems to have a pathological desire to be overmatched. It's freaking depressing.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 4:07 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I'd like to see Thabo get some time
on Ray Allen, and show that he at least remembers how to play defense.  I think Luol matches up fine with Pierce, Hinrich more than matches up against Rondo, we can stick anyone we want on Perkins...and nobody can match up on Garnett, so you just try to make sure you use all your available fouls against him.  Noah and Thomas have about as good a chance disrupting Garnett as any couple of guys in the league, so I think they just have to keep trying to get in his way every second of the game...not that Garnett is likely to blow-up, a la Rasheed. I think the Bulls will play the Celts pretty well tonight.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 4:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

You know
They do have Big Baby

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 5:43 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Am I the only one
No Matt, you're not alone.
If there's anything the Bulls HAVE been consistant about this year, it's that they lose after winning a game or two with no streak in them...except the losing kind.

The worst part about it is the WAY they lose...they usually keep giving some hope during the course of the game - only to lose it in the end.

The end.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:31 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Just looked up Aaron Gray on
Wikipedia.
There is a nice quote about his nickname in it and I quote, "His seemingly effortless offensive game from 16 feet in earned the big man the moniker "Gravy", a fairly obvious homage to both his impressive paint and baseline scoring moves and the likeness of his surname to the popular sauce, gravy."
Maybe he will be better than Will Perdue, who interestingly was 30 pounds lighter than Gray.

by philosoball on Dec 21, 2007 5:43 PM CST   0 recs

And the Bulls come out shooting
...like crap...

No surprise...(sigh)

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:26 PM CST   0 recs

Gonna be a long night
I really don't think you can play too much help defense on the Celtics. They pass too well and the shooters drain em every time

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 6:28 PM CST   0 recs

Gonna be a long night
I really don't think you can play too much help defense on the Celtics. They pass too well and the shooters drain em every time

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 6:28 PM CST   0 recs

repeating yourself
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:32 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

repeating yourself
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:32 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

even as an ardent Nocioni defender
he's gotta come out.  Its not a good matchup at all obviously with Garnett (unless he can dunk on him like he did in the Olympics) and if he's not hitting open threes then he's not helping by gunning them up there with.  Thomas hopefully comes in during this time out.

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 6:29 PM CST   0 recs

Skiles is an embarassment
this team is an embarassment.

That starting lineup is a joke. No interior defense, no rebounding. All jump-shooters. Boston can do whatever they want on offense because they know the rebound will come to them. Bulls have to hit all their shots because it'll be the only one they get.

So while they have ten points in 7 minutes, who is sitting at the scorers table? Aaron Gray.

This team is a joke. I sound like JoeJoe it has me so mad.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:29 PM CST   0 recs

Come on Matt
you know that you fantasize about being joejoe...
(kidding of course)   :-)
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I thought you were JoJo
until I read it was you

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 6:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Bulls have to hit all their shots
But they aren't....so now what?

Why would you move Smith over (that's what Skiles did, right?) and not give TT or Noah or (gulp) Gray a shot?

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:36 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

huh?
do you mean 'why wouldn't you'?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:45 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

thats gotta be the most retarded startomg lineup
one could come up with against the celtics

by lampnasty on Dec 21, 2007 6:30 PM CST   0 recs

P.J. Brown
I Don't think enough talk has been given to the impact of P.J. Brown leaving the Bulls.  He had a solid midrange game that really opened it up or tha guards. We don't really have anyone who has adaquetly replaced that.

by Cowboyjon on Dec 21, 2007 6:32 PM CST   0 recs

Gray
I don't mind him out there, especially if it means they go to Perkins on offense but I'd love if Thomas was out there with him.

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 6:34 PM CST   0 recs

It's already gotten old
watching noc throw bricks from the arc tonight
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:38 PM CST   0 recs

always a fan favorite
big white, medium white and little white

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 6:39 PM CST   0 recs

Gray does do some pretty good things for us
He just needs a dominant defensive player playing PF to help out a bit. Kinda like Tyrus

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 6:40 PM CST   0 recs

Didn't we have Posey and trade him?
I know we are down by 4 but I have a feeling this will be ugly. I like Gray and Thomas but we have no answer for Pierce.
TMD- http://playahatersblog.blogspot.com

by TMD on Dec 21, 2007 6:42 PM CST   0 recs

Bulls never had Posey
Maybe you're thinking of Bruce Bowen - they had him for about a day, before waiving him.

by Big D on Dec 21, 2007 6:45 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

That's right
That's right should have kept him
TMD- http://playahatersblog.blogspot.com

by TMD on Dec 21, 2007 6:54 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Posey is always nasty
with the Bulls....can't STAND that dick
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:45 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

does this team even run plays to end quarters?
or is it always just watch Gordon dribble for 20 seconds?

Except this time we got the 'pass it to Tyrus 25 feet from the basket' at the end of the clock.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:44 PM CST   0 recs

i doubt it
why would thomas even be standing out there if there was a play?  for a second it looked like he was actually going to take it to the basket for once.

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 6:46 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

fuck skiles
NOCE is 0 for everything. How can u start him when he's been producing so well off the bench? Didn't we draft a center? It seems like skiles doesn't want noah to play well and force him to make a tough decision when big ben comes back.

by Blacknight23 on Dec 21, 2007 6:45 PM CST   0 recs

Noc is even more gunnerlike than usual
I mean he is taking contested shots right when he gets the ball. It's strange. Maybe he's caught up in a duel with Pierce, heh.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:46 PM CST   0 recs

Can't let this team run away from us
Skiles just said....what a moron...
Gee....ya THINK, Skiles??!!
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:47 PM CST   0 recs

Last Shot
That was the best we could get to end the quarter?

by Cowboyjon on Dec 21, 2007 6:47 PM CST   0 recs

Still haven't seen Noah
WTF??
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:48 PM CST   0 recs

Oh wait...I saw him....
sitting on the bench again next to BG cleaning his fingernails and not even watching the game...

Awesome.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:51 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I don't blame him
i barely want to watch.

I said it before: Noah and Tyrus need some of Kidd's fake migrane juice.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

notice it took foul
Trouble to get NOCE off the floor. Still no NOAH. At leasst thabo is getting some burn.

by Blacknight23 on Dec 21, 2007 6:50 PM CST   0 recs

TT was trying to avoid landing on that guy
how was that a taunt?
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:52 PM CST   0 recs

Agreed
I may turn this game off
TMD- http://playahatersblog.blogspot.com

by TMD on Dec 21, 2007 6:56 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Pathetic
Like expected

by Option27 on Dec 21, 2007 6:55 PM CST   0 recs

Like expected
See Matt - you're not alone...   :-)
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

BG is scoring nicely please put him back in the
Game. Terrible pass Kirk. Damn u suck.

by Blacknight23 on Dec 21, 2007 6:55 PM CST   0 recs

dream lineup
would it hurt to see Gray, Thomas, Deng, Gordon and Duhon out there?

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 6:56 PM CST   0 recs

Deng has 2 fouls
but why is Gordon on the bench with him?

Skiles hates field goals.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 6:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Hey...at least NOAH is in!!
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 21, 2007 6:58 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Time for Skiles to put Khryapa in
And ask him to guard Paul Pierce.

by Big D on Dec 21, 2007 6:58 PM CST   0 recs