One day, you'll be telling your grandchildren about 'The Aaron Gray Game'

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 19, 2007 11:28 PM CST in News Comment 169 comments

Well, the Bulls broadcasting crew will, anyway. Especially Tom Dore, who likely saw the NBA player most resembling what Tom Dore the NBA player would've been.

So, great. Grayte, even. We now have a couple of wins in our pocket every season: the Aaron Gray low-post presence game joining the Duhon-hits-6-threes game. Gray was drafted to take over the Mike Sweetney role, providing a few minutes of being a big dude who can somewhat score, and he performed better than any appearance by Sweetney last season. Made his open shots, dunked when he could, found cutters (when he's double-teamed for whatever reason), and was also solid on the glass.

The team needed something from the big rookie, as Ben Wallace was out with (previously unmentioned) bone spurs in his foot. Knowing this pregame, Skiles looked into the mirror after finishing his comb-over routine, and said: "they think we're a jump-shooting team? I'll show them a jump-shooting team!!!" And rolled out a starting lineup of Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Nocioni/Smith. And they predictably sucked to shit when starting each half. Funny how that happens when you have a frontcourt that can neither rebound, block shots, or finish in the lane. What a crock.

Luckily a Tyrus Thomas substitution changed that. While 'lame, odd, and old' were yelping during every Aaron Gray touch, Tyrus Thomas was quietly having a fantastic game. He was finishing around the rim, made a post spin-move, and drained several jumpers. And defensively, even when he got lazy (or tired, or unfocused, or whatever causes him to get lost) he made up for it with the hops, most spectacularly evidenced by his block of Jamison in the 4th, where he not only caught his own block, but was able to stay inbounds and get fouled. He then made his two free throws. I know what you're thinking Skiles: Did he sprint down the court to take those free throws? Just leave the kid out there, not only will he save your job but you can claim you're developing him in the process.

Seeing that Skiles was quick to put in Thomas and Gray to supplant that awful starting lineup, perhaps Skiles does believe in the 'performance-based' minutes, as long as Wallace isn't playing? We even got to see the dream lineup of Hinrich/Gordon/Deng/Tyrus/Noah, albeit not for long. After all, this was the Aaron Gray game.

Now let us never speak of it again.

0 recs | Comment 169 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

If nothing else this game should

motivate Noah to learn how to make a hook shot in the paint.

by philosoball on Dec 19, 2007 11:45 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Noah

Hey, Philosoball! Noah doesn't need motivation from your lumbering 2nd round draft pick. Sounds like a Pittsburgh fan. Just be happy for the time Gray got from that psycho Skiles. He might not play him for the next two or three games, the same way he did at the start of the season.

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This was actually a good spot to use Gray

The Wizards have a big lumbering center of their own in Brendan Haywood. You couldn't use him against a team like the Suns or the Warriors; he'd get run off the court. He would have been a decent backup center 20 years ago.

by Big D on Dec 19, 2007 11:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

"The Tyrus Jumper Game"

The guy made three midrange jumpers!!! I doubt anyone has seen this happen during a shootaround, let alone during a game ... so that's encouraging.

We've all been impatient with his progress, and rightly so, but remember he's the youngest Bull. Hopefully we start seeing some consistency from him this year (get him his PT Skiles!).

We didn't get KG, we're not getting Kobe, we let Tyson go, and we swapped LaMarcus. If we're going to stick with our young core, I really think Tyrus is the key ... his progression will determine if we get to the conference finals and beyond in the next two years.

Age
21 Thomas
22 Deng, Noah
23 Gray, Sefolosha
24 Gordon
25 Duhon
26 Hinrich

by Orange Juice on Dec 20, 2007 12:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yes, the three jumper game is so remarkable,

except for the fact that he already did it this year already on 11/2 against the 76ers. And he did it in the preseason as well.

"I doubt anyone has seen this happen during a shootaround, let alone during a game ... so that's encouraging."

Thomas making his mid-range jumpers isn't something new. He's been doing it since the preseason. Complain about Thomas not hustling if you want, but giving Thomas a hard time about one of the two areas where Thomas has clearly improved himself is just stupid. The other area is turnovers by the way before you write something about Thomas not turning it over in shootaround. To make it easier for you, I'll provide the link to Thomas's shot chart for the season. Thomas can't make jumpers when he's not on the floor. Who knows how many times he would have made 3 shots if he actually played.

http://www.nba.com/hotzones/index.html?team=bulls&player=tyrus_thomas&season=22007&split =

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 8:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i think you do most of the complaining on here ...

I think you're confusing me with Sam Smith. Who's giving who a hard time? Yes, he has improved and he needs the PT as I pointed out too, but what's wrong with wanting more from him? Did you really expect him to be draining those mid-range jumpers last night? Please.

According to your link, he made all of three midrange jumpers last season ... is there a hotzone for this season?

by Orange Juice on Dec 20, 2007 1:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What I linked to was this year's, but

the = didn't get included in the link for some reason. Here's another try.

http://www.nba.com/hotzones/index.html?team=bulls&player=tyrus_thomas&season=22007&split =

And yes, I am completely confident in Thomas making those jumpers because he has made them since the preseason. He's altered his form to create a more repeatable motion, is shooting across his body less as a result. I also knew his mid-range shooting stats for the year and have watched him consistently make mid-range jump shots this year. Maybe you weren't giving Thomas a hard time, but you were certainly showing your ignorance.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 1:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

didn't work that time either

just type an = at the end of the address when you click on the link and you will get his 07/08 stats.

He's 11/22 from elbow to elbow so far this year.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hard to believe

that Deng is only 22. It would have been cool if we got both Lamarcus and TT in the same draft. Like trade the Noah pick last year to the Blazers. Or if on of them came out a year later.

by eross226 on Dec 20, 2007 1:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

one of the*

by eross226 on Dec 20, 2007 1:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Matt, you're on the ball

I enjoyed your post, Matt. You seemed to echo my thoughts.
I've signed up for League Pass so I can watch as many Bulls games as I can, but psycho Scott Skiles is freaking me out with his mind games with Noah. I think Noah probably talks back to him in practice when he tries his power trip and this is how he gets back at him by keeping him on the bench. How else to explain him not playing Noah against the Lakers. Noah has respect for authority, but he isn't intimidated by Skiles and that's Skiles' problem.

I'm glad you made the point about Tyrus' performance. He was brilliant tonight, but psycho Skiles will try to show him who's boss by his inconsistent pattern of floor time.

On the point of Skiles, when is Paxon going to go to him and say enough is enough, you'd better get your act together or you're history? Maybe he has secrets for Paxon?

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 1:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Analogy

Sam Smith is to Tyrus Thomas as Matt is to Aaron Gray.

by cjurmann on Dec 20, 2007 7:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ha, great one.

by Old Skool Sloan on Dec 20, 2007 8:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 20, 2007 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ha-ha-ha...!

Very nice.

by Azabullsfan on Dec 20, 2007 11:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Free Throws!

I missed the game, but what surprises me looking at the stats is that the Bulls actually shot more FTs than their opponent! BG even got to the line 7 times (though he only shot 37.5% from the floor).

Did they drive to the hoop more often? It looked like they were trying that against the Lakers, but they didn't seem to get the calls.

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Dec 20, 2007 7:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Other trends:

For once, it was the Bulls making a run to close out a game; it was the other team walking around dazed at the no-calls; and it was the Bulls who came back from an early double-digit deficit to win.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Dec 20, 2007 10:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The view from Section 417

After dropping my first 3 Bulls games here in DC, I'm now on a 2 game winning streak after last night's showing.

A few of my thoughts on the game, from several hundred feet up:

Joe Smith seems like consistent, stablizing personality out there, espcially when everyone else sucks for the first five minutes of the game.
Plenty has been said about Aaron last night. It was sweet to see in person.
Tyrus's jumper was sweet from quite a varied range. I had to do double takes to make sure that actually was Thomas taking those shots. If he has nailed down that part of his game, he will be very dangerous very soon.
Noah seemed lost a couple times on the defensive end. I don't remember if it was in transition, but he once switched between covering 3 different guys in under 2 seconds on one possession.
We have long road ahead of us if we continue playing the type of basketball where our performance has Chris Duhon as the best finisher in the paint.
There was one span during the game when we had three white guys on the floor at the same time, something I don't remember having seen since Kerr/Kukoc/Longley. Welcome to the Aaron Gray era.
I was bothered by our complete absence on the offensive boards. I understand that a "jump-shooting team" isn't going to a ton of offensive second chances, but I would like us to average more than one body near the boards per jump shot.
If we have the guys full court scrimmage an hour before the game starts, is there any chance they show up offensively before the second half? Seriously - what do we have to do to shake the rust off?
How long is it before teams start offensively scheming to make sure Tyrus is nowhere near the paint when they drive? If Tyrus is in the paint when it isn't a jump shot, he gets to it. His ability to do so is asymptotically approaching "Every single time."
Last night pushed me a lot closer to Matt's views on Nocioni, playing time, and performance.

Overall, it was great to see them get another W. Plus, our section won a free Arenas jersey during a time-out, three card monte promotion. Unfortunately, this was the Bulls only trip to DC this season, so unless I plan a trip up to Philly in January or March, I'll have to wait until next season to see them.

by torch on Dec 20, 2007 7:33 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Same section

Who'd of thought two Blogabull readers would be in the same section. The free Arenas jersey was nice for those nights when they're not playing the Bulls.

2nd round of section 417 thoughts: Chandler must have bequeathed his brick-hands to Noah before he left town. But that being said, he, Gray and Thomas create post opportunities for Deng, Noce and others when they're in the game. There seemed to be quite a few baby-hooks, clear outs, put backs and whatnot when they were in the game. For a jump-shooting team (that can't shoot) like us, I want them in for that reason alone.

by Old Skool Sloan on Dec 20, 2007 8:40 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

On Kerr-Kukoc-Longley,

you mean the Championship years were more memorable than when the Bulls put the following four guys out there in the '04-'05 season?

Kirk Hinrich
Eric Piatkowski
Andres Nocioni
Jared Reiner

I'm not sure who the 5th player was, but I distinctly remember a blogger saying he felt like he was watching Hoosiers.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Dec 20, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gray

Despite his limitations has real value for this team. Playing him against big dudes like Bynum, Haywood, & Big Z - that works. He can use his great size to neutralize their likewise lumbering post games. Match him up against a more athletic center - Amare, for example - and you'd have a huge ass kicking. Though in that case we have our own athletic center - Noah, the most flamboyant lost man in the league.

I don't mind the idea of a Noah/Gray, strategic rotation at starting center. As long as Tyrus is set at the 4.

by Freethefro on Dec 20, 2007 8:12 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus 4/Noah 5

would probably result in getting outrebounded at this point. I think Noah will hopefully get better with time at rebounding.

by Sambossanova on Dec 20, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yes

they're very light and would get pushed around a bit. You'd only be able to play them against more fleet, athletic teams like the Suns. Noah does need to get stronger; hopefully he'll be on the same regiment as Tyrus, who seems to have put on some "good" weight.

by Freethefro on Dec 20, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

In the preseason, some here opined

that the beefed-up Thomas had lost his hops. Last night's obliteration of Jamison's lay-up should squelch those thoughts. TT's new muscle does seem to work for him in the trenches.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noah

We'll get more muscled naturally. No steroids. We'll grow into our body naturally, and I like his speed and agility.

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 6:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This game gave me hope

I know Gray appears Sweetney-like at times but there are some big differences. He gets the tough rebounds. He is not soft. What may be perceived as soft is he plays under control. Others players had their hands on rebounds and he took the ball away. He appears to be very strong. He actually was double-teamed at times opening up our guards. I think Gordon's two key threes came out of Grey passing out of a double-team. What surprises me is his ability to pass out of the post, including finding the cutters.

TT makes mistakes but he is the key for us to get to the next level. His Prince-like block on Jamison was huge. He came out of no-where and did this at a key time in the game. He also blocked a Jamison jump shot that the Wizards luckily got back and scored. TT can disrupt another team like no other Bull player.

Gray and TT should start Friday. Gray is a good match-up against Perkins and let TT try to guard Garnett. If they have bad games let's not give up on them. I also think Noah can be a major contributor to this team if we allow him to play more. He needs to play within 5 feet of the basket to help us.

And as Orange Juice points out we are still very young. We only have one bad contract. I don't consider the Noc contract bad (I know this is arguable). We could be a threat once Boston gets too old. Anyway it was fun to watch the young guys do it last night.

by chgobr on Dec 20, 2007 8:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

There's the old chgobr optimism

And Boston is very good, but they'll hit a stumbling block or two down the road.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 8:32 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Shoot 49% and lose

Ironically, Billups sealed the game at the line.

Free Throw stats
Boston: 13-21
Detroit: 20-23

Detroit beats you at the line.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Optimism is back in the building

by chgobr on Dec 20, 2007 9:25 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sweetney

I know you guys will laugh at this, but sweetney was an even more skilled player than gray. He was just....fat.
I used to watch him in NY and lots of people here thought he had the chance to be a real good starter. He actually was a very good rebounder except he was fat, which kept him down. Other than that he had a wide body and knew how to use it. Dont foget he wasnt very tall. That is something I like about gray. He isnt short.

Sweetney also had a pretty sweet post up game that somehow got worse at chicago. He was very crafty. Up and under moves...all of that. Maybe we could have kept him and had him teach noah and tyrus a couple of things...including eating.

Where is sweets now. I miss the guy.

by Sambossanova on Dec 20, 2007 9:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sweetney was better than gray

nothing laugh-worthy about it.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no diggity

Sweetney was a hero to the stat community. (The community before that freedarko clone wandered in 3 years late.)

This will all be covered in my Sweetney career eulogy that I should've written over the summer.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 20, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Career Eulogy?

Matt, pretty please? That's all I want under my Xmas tree! What a great idea.

In Pax we Trust!

by Jobu on Dec 20, 2007 11:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he should still comeback

maybe Sweets should try our Celebrity Fat Club (I think thats the name) on VH1, he's really too young to be washed up if he could get in shape

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 20, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I was rooting for a bad team

to pick him up this summer, but no dice. It would be nice to hear if he's working out with an NBA trainer right now.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 11:41 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Sweetney

never did have a strong work ethic. Way too lazy.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 20, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

weight problems

Not being able to keep off the weight is a poor excuse. You're an athlete. You get paid to take care of your body. If you're out of shape you're almost worthless to your team.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 9:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

thanks Coach Ditka

It doesn't change the fact that Sweetney had a productive career before his weight problem, and career death-by-Skiles. Gray isn't even close to Sweetney's play with the Knicks.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Maybe someday

Gray can average 8.4 ppg and 5.4 rpg like Sweetney did with the Knicks.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 20, 2007 9:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good grief

I thought this Blog had gotten past dumb replies like this. Sweetney averged 8.4 amd 5.4 in slightly under 20 min/g with a 59.2 TS%. That's productivity. There's a reason Sweetney was a lottery pick and Gray a 2nd rounder. Sweetney was a much better college player than Gray as well. If Gray can ever replicate that season of Sweetney's we should be content.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Since when does

college carreer mean anything in the NBA.

J.J. Redick was a great college player too. Doesn't automatically guarantee anything in the pros.

None of this changes the fact that Sweetney was lazy, too short, and a very average defender at best. His field goal percentage were far "outweighed" by his negative intangibles.

If anything we should hope Gray can compare to a player who he more resembles, like ..shit who does he remind me of...Chris Kaman?

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 20, 2007 10:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

and Hinrich is John Stockton.

Gray doesn't have an NBA career yet to compare.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 20, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i was thinking

more of a Jeff Hornacek

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 20, 2007 2:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Van Lier has consistently trotted out

a Gray to Tom Boerwinkle comparison. With a tandem remarkably similar to Gray and Noah, Boerwinkle split time with Clifford Ray to anchor a couple of pretty good Bulls teams. Get out the archival black and white footage to see how that holds up.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 10:34 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not Tom Boerwinkle - more like Will Perdue

I'm old enough to have seen Boerwinkle play many times and in his prime he was a very good NBA player. He was a good defender a very good rebounder and an exceptional passer. He actually was a pretty good athlete for his size. He was probably a below average shooter but if Gray could ever become as good as Boerwinkle we would have a real steal.

I really can't think of a current NBA center who is slower than Gray. I think his skill set is such that he will have a pretty long career in the NBA but I don't see how he will ever be a starting center

Ye OldeBull

by OldeBull on Dec 20, 2007 4:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gray's turtlesque foot speed

is definitely the weakest part of his game. But, as you point out, his compensatory skill set should buy him a long career of back-up minutes. He does have very good hands, quick recognition of game situations...and bulk. His bulk alone created some open lanes that his team mates hadn't seen all season.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 4:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Stormin' Norman

In particular, Van Lier was only comparing the PASSING of Gray to Boerwinkle, not his entire game.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 20, 2007 6:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

College career means something

Rates of rebounds, blocks, steals, and turnovers mean something when it comes to predicting NBA futures. Shooting efficiency means something. Unless you want the comparision of their ability to be limited to Gray's 80+ minutes in the NBA. I added the college part as merely supporting evidence. Referencing J.J. Redick is a non-starter because he did hardly any of things at the college level that translate to the NBA.

Sweetney when he was merely overwieght had a good lateral quickness for his size and very long arms for his size, which made him at least an average defender. If you think Gray is even average as a defender right now then you never stopped drinking the preseason kool-aid. Shifting the argument doesn't get you out of a dumb use of per game stats.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 10:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess it was dumb

to pick Sweetney's BEST YEAR AS A PRO and hope that one day Gray could average more then 8 ppg. Give me a break. He was a NBA bust, what is so hard to understand about that?

But I guess it was all Skiles fault that Sweetney never matured as a player. That's why Sweetney is playing NBA2K8 with a giant slice of Domino's pizza right now dreaming of that day he had a layup against Tim Duncan.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 20, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

actually

per minute stats are pretty easy to understand, and so was sam's original sweetney comment.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 11:38 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gray makes Chris Kaman look like Allen Iverson

by Big D on Dec 20, 2007 5:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Hold the blasphemy

I do not approach the status of "Da Coach". Please do not sully his name by equating me to him.

Thanks. Drive thru.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

There's no question that Sweetney was good

but he's an example of how skill is not enough for survival in the NBA. Some of it may fall on Skiles or the media (he was coming from NYC, so Chicago media should have been a walk in the park), but Sweetney also let the benching and weight issues get into his head and stopped hitting shots.

It just seems that demanding coach + sensitive player + serious personal issue (weight problem or any other) = early exit from the league.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Dec 20, 2007 10:28 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gray is not Sweetney

Sweetney is 6' 8". Gray is 7' 1". That 5" difference which is huge.

by chgobr on Dec 20, 2007 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Reactions

Aaron Gray displayed something for the Bulls that is absent in losses, but evident in wins. I'm talking about confidence. Gray wasn't a train wreck down the floor. He calmly was getting ahead on offense and heading right for the low block on nearly every possession with Andrey Blatche in the game as the Wizards center. What the? Was this a Bulls player getting lucky? No. This was recognizing a matchup and asserting yourself on offense by getting into position to receive the basketball. Despite having passes thrown at his ankles, Gray still managed to handled half of these passes and convert a few of them.

Tyrus had a great game. The box says he had 13 attempts from the field. That seems high. I thought he had about 9 attempts. Nonetheless, he converted 6 of those attempts and 3 of them were 12-15 foot jumpers. I still bite my lip when Tyrus shoots, but what I did like was that he saw he was open, checked the floor for other openings, and when they weren't there he fired away with confidence.

When the game started I actually thought for a moment that Wallace was benched. After not seeing him the entire 1st quarter I knew he had to be injured. Even without Wallace, Chicago held Washington to 39% from the field.

Overall, this was a very thin Wizards roster. Nick Young started and put up 10 shots making only 1. I guess they really miss Antonio Daniels. But they did have a 4 game winning streak.

I just loved watching a half court set with a big body in the paint wearing a Bulls uni. Can we get Mr. and Mrs. Gray to attend every Bulls game?

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 8:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

nice win

I semi-predicted a loss last night so I eat crow, (or is it humble pie), this morning.

As already mentioned several times Ty and Gray looked good out there. Gray's passing impressed me more than anything.

Stacey King was going ga-ga for Gray, lol...it was hilarious because you knew he was going to say something any time Gray touched the ball. After someone made a tough pass to Gray, and he caught it, Tom Dore said something like "no other 7-footer would have made that catch..." LOL...what!?

How or when did BG score 22?? That was the most quiet 22 I've ever seen. I was impressed with the 6 boards and 6 dimes.

Kirk is starting to worry me again...5 quarters of sloppy play. He needs to be on for Boston.

SOMEONE, ANYONE please tell Nocioni that he doesn't have to shoot EVERY time he touches the ball. 'Every time I get pass, I must shoot...and that's it!' There were SEVERAL possessions last night where the team could've and should've got a decent shot, but Noce felt the need to fire a quick jumper. Even Stacey King noted it a couple of times. He's been playing above his head and has been pretty consistent this year, but damn he can hurt you when you don't need it.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 20, 2007 8:50 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

coaching

The staff needs to remind Noc that what makes him a special player is his ability to go to the rim and get fouled. They should promote his shot, but they can teach him to use the shot fake and then drive to the rim. The defense will respect his shot. They will come out to guard him. He can use his jump shot threat to pull a big man out of the paint to contest his shot and then drive past him for an easy layup.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

free throws

Gordon scored 7 points on free throws. If he could average 6 or 7 fta a game he would be the consistent scorer we lack. It has been noted numerous times on blogabull that the differance between elite scorers and inconsistent gunners are fta. Lets hope this is the start of him understanding this.

by Blacknight23 on Dec 20, 2007 11:19 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

book it

If Gordon gets to the line 7 times a game his ppg will approach 23-27.

I'd be ecstatic if BG gets 7 FTA per.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 12:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No, Matt. This was not the Aaron Gray game.

This was the Aaron Gray coming out party.

Ita est, ita sit. ("It is what it is." c1650--Arnold Geulincx)

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 9:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

And the onset of the Gray Era

I'm pretty sure that's what Matt meant by "One day, you'll be telling your grandchildren...."

by Freethefro on Dec 20, 2007 9:49 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm guessing Matt was speaking with his tongue

firmly embedded in his cheek.

If you've been reading Matt's post since the preseason, cj's analogy pretty much summed it up.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know

was just making a joke.

by Freethefro on Dec 20, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

the only way Aaron Gray

has a 'coming out party', it'll be for the release of "Man in the Middle 2"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 20, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh, Matt. The Aaron Gray era...

This is gonna be great!

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 10:03 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm saving my copy...

of the Bulls monthly magazine with the Aaron Gray feature. It was the first one this season, and it's bound to be a collector's item.

Maybe I should sell it online now. Hopefully Dore, Red, and Stacey will start a bidding war.

That's assuming that Matt doesn't enter the fray and outbid everyone...

"I'm very important. I have many leather-bound books and my apartment smells of rich mahogany." - Ron Burgundy

by mdmnd9294 on Dec 20, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Ewing Theory.

Have you guys read this article from the world's biggest Bulls hater Bill Simmons? The Boston Douche Bag may be onto something.For those of you unfamiliar with this idea, it is basically some teams win even though one of their supposedly best players has been removed from the line up. No Dead Body last night turns into a big win and K.C. Johnson writes in the Trib that he heard laughter from the locker room.....

by SlickRick76 on Dec 20, 2007 10:53 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Simmons hates the Bulls because they

challenged the Celtics for dynastic supremacy--but he harbors an even deeper enmity against Phil Jackson for breaking the First Commandment: Thou shalt have no other Gods before the face of Red Auerbach.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ask the Wizards about the Ewing theory.

Despite last night's loss, they've been doing quite well without Agent Zero.

by Tim S. on Dec 20, 2007 11:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

To me,

it shows that the person they were really missing at the end of last season was Butler, not Arenas.

by Jaina on Dec 20, 2007 12:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ugh

The Wiz are better without Arenas is the lamest blorgument this season.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 12:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't think they're better

as I was telling my bf I thought it was a miracle they were playing as well as they are without him. But Butler's been playing out of his goddamn mind. And I think Arenas being out has been able to showcase him more. Yeah he was playing well last season, but he's already had 2 triple-doubles this season, to zero for the rest of his career. I guess what I'm saying is the point from where they would be without Butler and Arenas, is further away from how they are playing than with them both. Now, if they didn't have Butler and had Arenas, I'm sure they'd probably be faring pretty well also.

by Jaina on Dec 20, 2007 12:18 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That was always what I thought as well...

However, after reading his 50 best players article, I decided to read a few of his earlier entries, he was real big on Captain Kirk...called him a poor man's Steve Nash...God, I hope they beat the Celtics just to shut him up...

by SlickRick76 on Dec 20, 2007 11:21 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

If I correctly remember my freshman philosophy,

the definition of "syllogism" is as follows: "The Bulls beat the Piston. The Pistons beat the Celtics. Therefore, the Bulls beat the Celtics." It's a mathematical inevitability.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 11:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Agreed.

And beat the Pistons twice to boot...and yes, the Wiz have been doing well without Agent Zero....Big Ben and Viktor for Gilbert in a trade?:)

by SlickRick76 on Dec 20, 2007 11:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Any word on Gordon's pregame chat with Arenas?

I haven't seen anything this morning about the Gordon/Arenas declined contract chat.

by NBA Observer on Dec 20, 2007 12:19 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Great Question!

I heard B.G. challenged Agent Zero to a cage match,the rules were bring in whatever weapon you can carry:)....but as someone said earlier, that was the quietest 22 ever from B.G.

by SlickRick76 on Dec 20, 2007 1:14 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The match

was a bust. They both showed up to the cage, but Gordon fumbled his weapon off his knee and they had to reschedule.

by ChrisRobin on Dec 20, 2007 4:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Or, let me guess,

he lost his footing while attacking and ended up on the ground.

Or Ben Gordon got his shots in, but couldn't defend, and ended up getting knocked out.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Dec 21, 2007 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This was followed by him

declaring that he is the best UFC fighter on the Bulls, and demanding more than $10 million per year on his next contract.

"Duhon, don't make that garbage-time jumper... Save it for the next game!"

by bullhockey on Dec 21, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought

Gray and TT both played well. Whether Gray plays a lot of minutes depends on him and how he continues to play. Hopefully if he plays well and helps this team win Skiles plays him.

TT's jumpshot was very nice. They didn't even ruffle the nets going through. If he can keep that up on a regular basis he'll get his starting spot back.

Skiles needs to play the guys who help this team win whether they are veterans or not.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 20, 2007 1:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

did it occur to you

that part of the reason Thomas had those open jumpers was because the guy guarding him actually had to respect the fact that the Bulls for once had someone in the paint who could finish?

by JSlakov on Dec 20, 2007 1:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

right, they did.

Tyrus Thomas.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 20, 2007 1:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::rolls eyes::

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 20, 2007 3:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Do we want TT as center?

Does Tyrus often draw defenders and then actually pass back out to an open jump shooter? I'd say he typically goes right through the defenders and to the hole. On the other hand, Gray seems to choose to dump it back out to an open shooter when appropriate, creating a different kind of offense. I can even remember Noah passing back out to an open shooter more than TT.

What is with all the Gray hate? He had a good game. Next game, when someone else has an unusually good game, we will want talk about them. Just how things seem to go.

by cranscape on Dec 20, 2007 6:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't get

the Gray hate either. He did have a good game. As long as they win what difference does it make who helps get the win?

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 20, 2007 6:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Because it overshadows what Thomas did.

And while our opinion doesn't matter, Skiles seems to think that when someone else does something good, they get more playing time. When Thomas does, it doesn't mean anything.

What this does is probably get Gray more minutes which is already limited because Skiles is weird. It probably won't get Thomas more time.

I do agree: it's nice that Aaron Gray played well and helped the team win.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 20, 2007 7:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

also because some people here

are hung up on what should be rather than accepting what is. TT and Noah are lottery picks and therefore "should be" getting more playing time than Gray, no matter how well Gray plays or what benefits he brings to the floor.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just b/c Gray did well...

doesn't mean Thomas or Noah could not have done better. Thomas and Noah have demonstrated enough in limited playing time to warrant more playing time than they have gotten. They certainly deserve more minutes than Gray. When the Bulls were getting killed on the boards against LA, it seemed a perfect situation for Noah and Thomas up front. Gray's post game has benefits, but Noah/Thomas rebounding would have helped a lot more than what Gray/Noce brought that night. Also, it doesn't have to be an either or situation. Let Gray get some minutes at the expense of Wallace/Smith instead of Thomas/Noah. As well, take advantage of the depth to prevent playing Hinrich and Deng the entire second half for the ending that everyone saw coming.

by snley on Dec 20, 2007 9:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I guess taking a loss

last night would have been for the good of the team then, right? Maybe I just don't understand basketball the way everyone else on here does.

I think Skiles should play Thomas and Noah more, but to me that is more of a Wallace issue. Wallace shouldn't be playing 40 minute games. With his minutes cut down and perhaps Noc and Smith as well I don't see why Thomas, Noah, and Gray can't find time to develop. I don't think Gray getting good minutes for what amounts to a couple times games out of 20 is going to kill their development. If anything it is is over playing Wallace and Smith that is taking up their minutes and needlessly wearing down the old guys.

by cranscape on Dec 20, 2007 10:01 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The sarcasm is often so thick around here

that I don't have a clue what idea people are actually trying to promote. Personally, I would like to see Thomas, Noah and Gray all get minutes. I don't know if Gray can continue to show what he showed us last night, but it looked to me like he plays a very nice complementary game. It looked like his presence on the floor helped the other guys find their natural games.

Based on Gray's comments about himself after the game, it doesn't seem like he is concerned about being the star. He referred to himself as a second stringer, just getting a chance to do what he can to help the team. The team clearly has a different identity when he's on the floor. At the very least, when he plays in place of Wallace they get to play five on five on offense.

It seems to me that Matt and a few of the others here are just over the top anti-Gray. I think their point is same one Skiles made after last night's game--one or two games a career does not make. They want to see a sustained period of solid play before they're ready to concede him regular rotation minutes. Fine. With Wallace out, this is Gray's chance to show what he can do.

Boston will be a much tougher test. Whoever shows well against Boston should earn expanded playing time...whether it's Noah, Tyrus or Gray.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 10:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

two words

big picture.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 20, 2007 10:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

big picture

Ben Wallace is old and getting worse. Joe Smith is old and signed for only two years. If you care about the big picture, then Gray should be getting even more minutes because he's 22 years old and could be a part of this team in the future when those two most likely will not.

I get it though, you think its a fluke because you don't think his lumbering game translates to today's NBA, but as a rookie does he not deserve a chance to prove its not a fluke? You know, for the big picture?

Do you not see the irony in you getting mad about the announcers constantly praising Nocioni and not recognizing his faults when you do the same exact thing with Thomas and gushing about his "fantastic game" when it was clearly nothing special. I'd beleive that you really cared about the big picture more if you actually would offer a unbiased view for once on the performance of this team and give credit when its due even if its one of the guys you love to pick on and accept that Thomas sometimes isnt playing great and not blaming Skiles on his misuse of him for his bad stats.

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

free Nocioni!

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 9:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I get the irony

I'm biased for Tyrus Thomas. He is fun to watch and I want to see him improve and get this team improved. Nocioni is a goof and he's set as a gunner/flopper off the bench, so I (relatively) don't care how he's doing.

And I don't agree that Gray deserves any chance to prove it's not a fluke. He played well in that game and deserved to stay out there, and helped them win. And we can all be happy about that. But I for one won't be happy if we see him a lot, because it'll mean the team isn't any good. And I suppose that's not entirely 'big picture' to still think about making a playoff run this season. So fair enough.

But by 'big picture' I mean the even bigger picture that to win the Bulls need talent. Gray is not a talent, at least not even close to the level of Thomas or even Noah. If Gray is getting minutes I see it less as a function of him performing than the failure of performance by the others. And that's not something I'd be happy about, whether it's Gray's fault or not.

The team won't win anything because of Aaron Gray. That's just an opinion, but I think it's a safe stance to take. Let him take some minutes Saturday defending Yao Ming, and continue to fill that role where he comes in once in a while to get some post offense or defend a big oaf. If he can do that it's gravy.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 9:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

well said

I guess my thing is that when I watched the beginning of the Wizards game it was like a flashback to the Heat series two years ago when we had Malik Allen and Sweetney guarding Shaq and although I like Thomas, he doesnt add size, just athleticism and at some point in the NBA, even in this day and age, you'll need someone somewhat imposing. Believe it or not, Gray provided that presence against the Wizards. I didn't really expect it either but size still does matter and while people love to say Gray is the new Sweetney, he's taller and more built even if not so wide.

So as long as Big Ben is missing games, I definitely want to see Gray out there for the small picture and knowing Big Ben won't be here forever and pretty much sucks at this point anyway, at some point we'll need someone imposing and until a trade happens or we get to the draft, why not see what in Gray for the big picture if he fits a need anyway?

by JSlakov on Dec 21, 2007 5:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I realize it's not Gray's fault

that he garners the misplaced affections of Skiles, fans, and especially the media. Some of us know that even a halfway decent by Gray leads to him taking minutes away from Thomas and Noah, and to idiotic articles like this from K.C.
http://chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/sports/basketball/bulls/cs-071220chicagobullsaarongray,1,326 5636.story?coll=cs-bulls-headlines

by Scotter on Dec 21, 2007 12:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought that

was a nice article from K.C. Gray, TT and Noah all bring different things to the game. So you want Skiles to play TT and Noah and it won't matter to you if they lose as long as he plays those two players? The way Gray was playing would you have taken him out of the game?

Whether you like it or not Gray played well Wed. night and deserved to stay in the game. I hope he continues to play well. It's not his fault Skiles put him in but Aaron made the most of the time given him.

Your misplaced affections comment was silly. When Noah or TT have great games everyone gushes over them too. Some of us want to see all of our players do well. Just because you don't like Gray our affection for him is misplaced? Please.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 7:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

right

because we've all seen how often Tyrus Thomas drives the ball at his man from the elbow and finishes...

whether or not the Wizards should be respecting Gray's ability to finish down low, they were and it helped Thomas whether you like it or not.

by JSlakov on Dec 20, 2007 7:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I remember Thomas doing that.

I don't watch many games, so I'm glad you've seen Thomas take from the elbow and finish it, too.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 20, 2007 7:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I watch every game

and its not a common sight.

by JSlakov on Dec 20, 2007 7:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Neither is Thomas playing.

It was common enough last year when Nocioni was hurt.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 20, 2007 7:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It can only happen when Skiles

actually puts him on the court. That's a constraining factor. Does he finish with the frequency that he should? Not yet. But, he gets to the rim consistently, and guess what I too have seen Tyrus finish a drive on occasion and he'll get better in that area. He also passes well while driving from the elbow and got Gray a dunk and Deng a layup doing just that last night.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 7:54 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

don't get me wrong

I'm not saying Tyrus Thomas isn't good. My point was that if you watched the game, Gray's presence on the court was helping Thomas get free for those jumpers. And Thomas can certainly finish but he doesnt finish from drives from the elbow and thats where he was shooting from last night. So why were the defenders off him when you don't have to fear his drive? Because Gray was down there and actually getting good position and causing the defense to collapse.

I think Gray and Thomas compliment each other quite nicely especially if Thomas is hitting that jumper. Do I think either will be able to have that mcuh success against most teams? Not yet, but something to build on at least.

by JSlakov on Dec 20, 2007 8:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus was incredible.

I have no idea why he isn't starting and playing 30 minutes a night.

It makes no sense.

And while I am on the topic of items that makes no sense, why did every local article on the game focus entirely on Gray? Yes, Gray played fantastically well, but it was Tyrus who really won the game for the Bulls. Methinks this is yet another example of the Sam Smith Effect, wherein the media friendly player is lauded by journalists and the surly, introspective player is ignored.

"We goin' to the 'ship!" - LSU IS IN THE NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP!

by 1958ChiTown on Dec 20, 2007 2:08 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

With Tyrus playing well

and Gray anchoring the middle for more of an inside out game, I thought it was also interesting how small a role Noc played in a Bulls win.

by alec on Dec 20, 2007 2:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ya wanna know why our record is so bad?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=sg&seasonType =2

by hhi on Dec 20, 2007 2:43 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

What about this?

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/statistics?sort=per&qual=true&pos=pg&seasonType =2

Which raises the question, why does Hollinger list Hinrich as a shooting guard?

by Tim S. on Dec 20, 2007 2:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Bulls have 3 2's?

Gordon, Hinrich,and Deng are all listed as SG's. Would make a little sense if players were listed at multiple positions. Alas, it is ESPN, the same company that signed Rick Reilly and replaced Tony Kornheiser's radio show with Colin Cowherd. Obviously, mistakes are just accepted with the company.

by snley on Dec 20, 2007 9:48 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

they've all played

shooting guard this season.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 20, 2007 9:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right,, but they're not all starting at SG

As I said, if they were listed at multiple positions it'd make sense. However, each player in the league is listed at only one position each. Therefore, it's an oversight that 3 Bulls STARTERS are listed as SG's, when, obviously, 2 of them are not.

by snley on Dec 21, 2007 1:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

not a big deal

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yeah but....

we were all ready to through Duhon under the bus. The other two "core" guys were too good to trade for Kobe Frickin Bryant!

by hhi on Dec 20, 2007 3:15 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Duhon still deserves to be thrown

under the bus. He's exactly the same player he's been for the last three years. Hinrich and Gordon stinking up the joint, shouldn't change anyone's opinion about Duhon.

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 4:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Yep

Duhon's PER's:

2004-05: 9.87
2005-06: 12.95
2006-07: 11.94
2007-08: 11.59

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/players/hollinger?statsId=3855

He's been very consistent the past three years - consistently mediocre. The only reason anyone thinks he's "playing better" is because Hinrich has been one of the worst players in the league until the last week.

by Big D on Dec 20, 2007 5:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ben Gordon

Can't believe that Ben Gordon and Duhon are both listed at 6'1". Gordon looks distinctly shorter. What's Gordon's real height?

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 7:23 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

When they were drafted

Gordon was 6'1" and Duhon 6'0" barefoot. They used a ruler and eveything.

http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-pre-draft-measurements/?year=2004&sort2=ASC&draft=0&sort =

by Scotter on Dec 20, 2007 7:44 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gordon

How many other teams in the NBA have as short a starting two guard as Ben Gordon?

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 7:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Denver

by KT on Dec 20, 2007 10:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What is trade value of BW?

Is any way to dump this contract?

by runio on Dec 20, 2007 5:16 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Trade value is practially zero.

At 15 mil per, this is right up there with the Stephon Marbury albatross contract of 19 mil per year.

A team might take a flyer for one year, but with three years remaining, no way.

It would be better to hope that his injury is a lingering issue that keeps him out for a couple months or so.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 20, 2007 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

This post might piss off Matt...

but I'll go with it anyways. Could it be Paxson and/or Skiles reads Blog-A-Bull and decided to give Wallace the Tim Thomas treatment after all?

by snley on Dec 20, 2007 9:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Boone

Just watched a laughable happening in the Miami Heat vs. New Jersey Nets game where Josh Boone, the stiff out of Connecticut, on an easy lay-up went up softly to lay it in and had a guard sneak up and block it. And the guard wasn't Dwayne Wade.

by SlamDunk on Dec 20, 2007 8:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I like Aaron Gray.

I think there's a definite Brady Quinn approach that was taken to Gray and Glen Davis. Bother were considered lottery picks (arguably) in the 2006 draft. Both stuck around. Both came out in more hyped classes and got over-scrutinized. I'd be 100% elated if the Bulls found a second Brad Miller.

I'd love for Gray to take Wallace's and Smith's minutes. The problem is, he won't. He'll take Thomas's and Noah's minutes. Thomas and Noah have much higher ceilings than Gray, and their development is much more important to the Bulls.

I almost wish this team wouldn't have signed Ben Wallace and still traded chandler. With that, they took a decisive "win-now" attitude (as if Skiles hadn't had that all along). This team would be much more exciting (if even slightly worse), if I were watching Deng, Thomas, Noah, Nocioni and Gray instead of Deng, Smith, Wallace and only one of Thomas/Noah/Gray.

I'm pretty sure (to different extents) that's all any anti-Gray people are saying: If Wallace and Smith were getting fifteen minutes that's one thing, but when Noah and Tyrus are...

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 21, 2007 2:39 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Nice post

Cogent and concise. "I'd love for Gray to take Wallace's and Smith's minutes. The problem is, he won't. He'll take Thomas's and Noah's minutes. Thomas and Noah have much higher ceilings than Gray, and their development is much more important to the Bulls." Yup. Gray projects to be a very, very good second string center in the NBA; but the Bulls drafted Noah, in Paxson's words, because they thought he could be a "center on a championship team."

by Freethefro on Dec 21, 2007 6:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Your comment about Paxson's intention

upon drafting Noah is exactly what I was referring to in my above post, "that people here are getting hung up on what `should be' rather than accepting what is."

Who cares what Paxson's intentions were when he drafted Noah? Paxson's draft day decisions, at best, have proven to be mediocre. And I'm not just ripping on Paxson--probably every GM of every team in every sport would do his draft differently if he could see two or three years into the future.

You can't deny a guy simply because he was drafted lower than someone else. Brett Favre was a second round pick. Tom Brady was drafted 199th...and couldn't get on the field at Michigan until the great Brian Griese graduated. And (staying close to home), both Cade McNown and Rex Grossman were first round picks. So don't tell me that draft day intentions should determine a player's pro career.

I know hscs got upset with me for using my personal experience to draw a basketball analogy, but I'll repeat what I said before: the surest way to bankruptcy in trading is to base your decisions on what should be rather than on what is. I think the analogy holds.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 9:24 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

"simply because he was drafted lower"

yes. That's how it works. I forgot which NBA team Tom Brady played for, so I can't counter that example.

There's no 'accepting' yet, that's the point. Why accept anything about Gray or Thomas right now? The team succeeds if Thomas succeeds, so give Thomas every benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. And nothing will be proven for quite awhile.

I can't believe the idea of valuing lottery picks (top-5 picks!) has to be explained. 'The surest way' to screw up your basketball team is to miss on your draft picks.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Right. In the NBA they never miss on picks.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt, I 100% agree with you

about the importance of Thomas to the team's future.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

With Gray showing the Bulls need a low post scorer

(As I commented in the Wallace for Gasol blog)

How about Ben Wallace, Ben Gordon, and Viktor Khryapa for Pau Gasol, Juan Carlos Navarro, and Brian Cardinal. The Grizz would save $32M over the next 3.5 years. For the Grizz, they are upgrading at their starting SG, bringing a defensive presence to the team, and getting rid of a terrible contract. The Bulls are getting the dominate low post scorer they've needed, retaining a streaky shooting guard, and bringing back another PF to replace Khryapa. Do you all think this deal makes sense?

If this deal could get done, then I think Matt is onto something regarding Maggette. How about a Noah, Sefalosha, and either Cardinal or Joe Smith package to the Clippers for Corey Maggette. If we can send them Cardinal then we could include a 2nd round pick.

by Mattchoo on Dec 21, 2007 8:04 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

how about using the trade machine?

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 9:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

trade machine...

The trade machine worked for the Gasol deal right? I think I had tried that last night at home and it went through, but I don't have access to the trade machine at work so I wasn't able to check the Maggette deal? Did that one fail?

by Mattchoo on Dec 21, 2007 11:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noah for Maggette?

I think Matt's point about trying to get Maggette was that that type of trade could be done without giving up one of the core players. Plus, there's no way that the Griz give up Gasol without getting Thomas or Noah, plus Hinrich, Gordon, or Deng, in return at least. Add in the fact that they already have Mike Miller and Rudy Gay and 3 viable PG's, what the hell would they need Gordon and his salary demands for?

by snley on Dec 21, 2007 9:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

salary demands

You mean contract negotiation, right? "Demand" is a little harsh.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 9:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Don't drag this into semantics

Gordon demands, or wants, more than the Bulls want to give him. They negotiate according to those demands.

by snley on Dec 21, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

it's only relevant

because Gordon hasn't demanded anything, and I've never seen "demand" and "Deng" in the same sentence.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

very true

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 10:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

actually...

Deng DOESN't demand the ball late in games

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 10:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

heh :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 10:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How was Deng brought into this?

If Gordon didn't demand anything, then Paxson would have signed him to an extension for nothing. Since Gordon did not sign an extension, it stands to reason that he must have demanded more than Paxson was willing to offer.

From www.m-w.com:
Main Entry:
2demand
Function:
verb
Etymology:
Middle English demaunden, from Anglo-French demander, from Medieval Latin demandare, from Latin, to entrust, charge, from de- + mandare to enjoin -- more at mandate
Date:
14th century

intransitive verb: to make a demand : ask
transitive verb
1: to ask or call for with authority : claim as due or just <demanded to see a lawyer>

by snley on Dec 21, 2007 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

then i suppose

Deng was asking for more $$... Now, your bringing in definitions into this? Is this a blogabull first?

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I thought you didn't want to argue semantics

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 11:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Merry Christmas to ALL!!

I demand a BULLS win!!! :)

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 11:57 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Value of Maggette

Any insight as to how valuable Maggette is to the Clippers? Doesn't he average 20ppg and 6.5rpg? I figured we'd have to give up more of our talented players to get him, hence the inclusion of Noah in the deal.

Based purely on my own reading between the lines, Gasol seems to be losing value within the Grizz organization so I thought we wouldn't have to give up too much to get him if we take back Brian Cardinal and his horrid contract. Gordon would be a significant improvement over Juan Carlos Navarro, who I think is the current starting SG on Memphis (i could be wrong though).

by Mattchoo on Dec 21, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Deng on Gray,

(from John Jackson's Sun-Times story today)

forward Luol Deng said. ''It gets guys face-guarding us while they're trying to keep an eye on him. Guys have to be aware of him and also be aware of our cutters.
''He's going to keep getting better, and he's going to help us out a lot.''

Hinrich and Gordon had similarly appreciative quotes in yesterday's and today's editions.

Matt, do we take this as evidence that the players aren't interested in winning either?

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 10:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

maybe winning the lottery.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 10:45 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Matt, by standing in the face

of the players, coaches, management, the beat reporters, the national press...not to mention nearly everyone on your own blog, you have set yourself up to be the hero, the only one who can say, "See, I was right about Gray all along." It's as good strategy. It's almost always risk-free to be the lone dissenter, because the rewards so far outweigh the risks. Here's hoping your wrong.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

perhaps you missed Matt's point

about the big picture, or how many Wizards played the Bulls a few nights ago. 8. Including 1 center, who only played a few minutes against Gray. Or how Tyrus Thomas had a good game, and the much better rookie was DNP'd.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 21, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If that's the case,

then it wasn't only me that missed the point. The truth is it's as risk-free for me to be wrong as it is for Matt. If I'm wrong, I'll just melt back into the sea of too-quick-to-judge, wrong opinion. But like I said, I hope you guys are wrong and I'm right...which is really only saying that I hope Gray pans out.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

define 'pans out'

I'm happy if he's panning out as a 5-10 minute guy.

I'm also happy if he's the next David Robinson, but I consider that less likely, and not worth spending minutes to 'find out'.

If your opinion is that Aaron Gray can develop into a long-term starter on a playoff team, trust me, you'll be the 'hero', as it's an opinion held by very very few.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's my opinion that Aaron Gray

can be a long-term situational starter, as well as a solid back-up minutes role player, on a play-off team. It's also my opinion that developing Gray does not detract from developing Tyrus Thomas. Perhaps it takes away somewhat from developing Noah, but even there, I think that Noah is likely destined to be a match-up starter, playing against a different style player than Gray would likely be on the court to play against.

To answer your question, "pans out," is not necessary to be determined by x number of minutes per game; rather, it is to be determined by his ability to offer significant situational help...which, as I see it is exactly what he gave the team against Washington.

I'd like to see if he can do more of it. As you say, one game is only one game. And as Skiles said, we'll see how he does when other teams begin to realize he exists, and start to have a little game plan ready for him.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 12:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think the problem with Gray,

and here I believe I can speak for many Bulls fans, is that we are still not over the Will Perdue era enough to watch an unathletic white guy for any extended amount of time.

by philosoball on Dec 21, 2007 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't have an agenda

I'm just saying what I think. It has nothing to do with being for or against the opinion of others, but if I disagree with their opinions I'll say so.

In fact, it's kind of insulting that you'd say that. But not unexpected, your status as a blowhard here is pretty established.

The media is there to come up with daily stories. And just because Gray is the story now, and they have quotes for it, doesn't mean that it's any indication of a long-term Aaron Gray 'era' consensus from either the media or the players or management. It's one game and I think they're aware of that, whether you are or not. (KC Johnson's idea to start Gray with Wallace notwithstanding)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2007 11:16 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

my status as a blowhard...

I'll add it to my list of New Year's resolutions.

(matt): "It's one game and I think they're aware of that, whether you are or not."

It's actually two games. And to your point, let me refer you to the above (alec):

"I think their point is same one Skiles made after last night's game--one or two games a career does not make. They want to see a sustained period of solid play before they're ready to concede him regular rotation minutes. Fine."

And really...let's all be very careful not ever, ever to insult one another here.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 11:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

sorry, I muffed the quote.

should be:

"...forward Luol...a lot."

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I dont really

think anyone is debating that Gray playing well can help this team. The main argument surrounding Gray is not to take PT away from Thomas and Noah... If Gray is taking time away from Noah and/or THomas then the Bulls are really in trouble. Gray is a backup big man that can relieve Wallace. I want to see Noah and Thomas play!!!

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 10:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wasn't Gray

relieving Wallace Wed. night?

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 11:00 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you're right

i just want to see a little more of Noah

by tyrus4prez on Dec 21, 2007 11:11 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I love Noah

and I hope he gets some playing time tonight since BB is still out.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 12:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd be so pissed at Skiles

if Wallace plays the whole game again tonight. he should be limited to 30 minutes tops. I wouldn't even start him but because of contract and past accomplishments I can see Skiles sticking to the Wallace start.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 21, 2007 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I made a suggestion to the UC announcer and to

Red Kerr and Tom Dore. The UC announcer is changing the response to a rebound. Instead of a bell going off there will be a terse announcement, "thank god you got one". Tom and Red will not use the nickname "the body" any longer. He will now be referred to as "the corpse."

We pay Big Ben $20,000 per rebound based on averaging 8.7 rebounds per game. We pay him $40,000 per point per game based on his average of 4.5 ponts/game.

by chgobr on Dec 21, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wallace is still out.

It's a Christmas miracle!

by CrashDavis on Dec 21, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

::Does happy dance::

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 21, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's a sad commentary that losing our $15.5 mil

man makes us all so happy! I hope Skiles doesn't have the Joe Smith, Noc combo start the game. Start Gray and TT. Let's see if Gray is the one game miracle or the real deal. TT just plain deserves to start. We need him to play and play well if we have any chance to win this game.

by chgobr on Dec 21, 2007 12:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Ten bucks

says Noch and Smith start. I don't like Noch starting.

Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2007 1:11 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd like to see Noah and Gray,

or Tyrus and Gray. I don't think Smith's creaky old body stands a chance keeping up with KG's all around athleticism. And Kedrick Perkins, who is not a threat to do anything, might be the right kind of match-up for Gray.

by alec on Dec 21, 2007 1:21 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs