Cheap Gas(ol)?

by paxson43 on Dec 2, 2007 10:25 PM CST Comment 55 comments

Our Man Sam (TM) is at it again. In his latest column, he says that Pau Gasol is again available. What's more, he could be had for the low, low price of Noc and Tyrus.

I'm skeptical that the Grizz would be willing to part with their All-Star for so little, but if Sam has his facts right this time (first time, ever), doesn't Pax have to jump at this opportunity? I'd guess that the Bulls would have to throw some combo of Thabo/Viktor/A-Drain/Pick as well to make this work.

If this trade went through, Pax would look like a genius for signing Noc to his inflated salary to use as filler for a bigger-contract guy. The team also rids itself of Tyrus who may or may not be the worst human being in the world (he isn't).

Update [2007-12-3 15:57:37 by paxson43]: Sam also mentions the possibility of somehow grabbing Jerry Stackhouse from the Mavs. It's a thought that made me just throw up in my mouth a little bit.

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

0 recs | Comment 55 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Intriguing

A legit lowpost scorer, for an energetic jumpshooter, and sir jumps alot (and very high)...i think id do the trade, but as socrates tells us, the only thing i really know is...nothing. This is especially true when talking about nba personal and what is "worth it"

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 2, 2007 11:07 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's interesting that

the Griz go out and sign Pau's Spanish teammate and friend and everyone says, "See? They're trying to hold onto Pau," and then he goes and lays a goose egg on the season. (Career lows in almost every statistical category? Check. Yup, he's definitely a fit for the Bulls.)

Although I perked up when I saw this passage:

"I haven't felt extremely comfortable with [the offense] because I was used to being told, 'You go here, this is going to happen and you're going to get the ball.'"

I'm not sure if that's him broadcasting that he wants to be coached by Skiles, but I guess he could have said something like "I need a culture of nice guy gym rats who win only by outworking their opponents," or, "Somewhere there's a coach with set plays who needs a low-post scorer."

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Dec 3, 2007 1:32 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I laughed out loud at Sam's Climax

Drum Roll

How about Tyrus Thomas and Andres Nocioni?

Applause

by Seth on Dec 3, 2007 1:36 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Yeah, don't the Grizzlies

already have an underachieving 6-9 power forward from LSU with limitless athletic ability and a short attention span on their roster (whom they acquired not once, but twice)?

Wouldn't this be like when Larry Brown convinced Isiah Thomas to team Steve Francis up with Stephon Marbury (or when the Bulls drafted Noah despite having Ben Wallace)? I'd love for this trade to happen, but despite what Trader Sam says, I doubt the Griz would make the same mistake that the Knicks and Bulls made and put two guys with the exact same game on their roster.

"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 3, 2007 2:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Is Pau any better than Eddy Curry?

I like Pau on surface looks, but when I dig deeper I just see another Eddy Curry that does try to stay in shape yet doesn't see huge boost from it.

If you're trading for Pau, trying to pry away Memphis lottery pick is a good idea.

by NBA Observer on Dec 3, 2007 8:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

There is nothing there

There is no way Memphis gives up Gasol for Noc and Tyrus, and getting a first round pick out of it is even more ludicrous. The bulls would have to at least throw in BG just to start the talks if they weren't going to include Deng. This is Sam making stuff up.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 3, 2007 9:03 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

i agree

getting gasol without touching the kirk/bg/luol trio would be great, but there is just no way that memphis dumps him for tyrus and noc. and it appears to me that the only true fact that sam uses in his column is that gasol may be available at some point before the deadline and that he hasn't fit in well with iavroni's system. the tyrus/noc for gasol rumor is completely made up by sam. however, i like the fact that memphis has chris wallace with his finger on the trigger; guy didn't exactly prove himself to be a solid or even decent GM with boston

by Mike C on Dec 3, 2007 9:35 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

least intriguing trade

since Sam floated Reef to the Bulls 3 times (and Reef could still play the first time).

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 3, 2007 9:29 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Does Sam even say Pau's available?

Now with a new general manager, a new coach in Marc Iavaroni and a new style, it's clear that Gasol is lost and likely expendable. At least that's the belief around the NBA, and teams expect a shot at Gasol by the trading deadline.

Gasol clearly is out of place in Memphis. Though he has backed off his vocal trade demands of last season, he's averaging career lows in points, rebounds, assists, blocks and steals, while his minutes haven't changed dramatically. Having been burned by speaking out last season, he has remained quiet. But the Grizzlies are expected to start exploring the market for him.

That's about as vague as it gets. He's not even saying he's quoting a source, but an NBA 'belief'.

Oh, Sam.

Plus this wouldn't help placate those of the 'mentally weak' theory.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 9:43 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

nods

This will just be another "reason" to get mad at Paxon when this "trade" fails. Who knows if this is even a remote possibly or if Sam's Noc/Thomas thing didn't come out his nethers, but it will be Paxon who fails and Sam who will point it out again that he didn't get Gasol.

by cranscape on Dec 3, 2007 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've got another NBA "notion"

I'm "hearing" rumors from "people" who "watch" the NBA that 1995-96 Shaquille O'Neal isn't totally happy with the Orlando Magic. Perhaps we could package Adrian Griffin, Kryhpa, our tallest ball boy and Sweetney in a sign-and-trade for Shaq in the last year of the contract?
And don't tell me we don't have the pieces or haven't mastered the subtle nuances of the space/time continuum that would allow us to go back in time and make this trade.
Pax is a wuss, that's all!

by Old Skool Sloan on Dec 3, 2007 1:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

No way

Why would we trade Thomas in a Gasol deal? He is the most athletic guy on the team and is improving. I understand that you have to give something to get something, but that deal slows the Bulls considerably.

What about Noc + Kirk? Kirk might be attractive to Memphis because Navarro is (maybe) out after this year, Mighty Mouse is not getting any younger, and he would give the Grizz some defense.

by Stay Chisel on Dec 3, 2007 10:30 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Mighty Mouse?

The Grizzle have Conley and Lowry as 'future' PGs, Stoudamire's irrelevant to them in the long-term.

Unless they wanted Kirk at the 2.

Fellers, as bad as Kirk is they'd still need a point guard if he was traded. Duhon didn't get better, Kirk just got worse.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 10:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

OK

Stoudamire is still their starting PG and Conley is young (and, currently, injured). Clearly, he is the "PG of the Future" for that team, but he may or may not be ready to take the reins once he's healed. Not everyone can be like Chris Paul and run an NBA team in his first year. Remember that Conley only played one year of college ball, unlike CP and Deron Williams who were good PGs out of the gate. Maybe Conley will get healthy and dominate the second half. Who knows.

I am not really disagreeing with you, though. My point is really that the Bulls have other players to move in this scenario who may be attractive to Memphis. Whenever people talk about how to avoid "breaking up the core," they start with dealing Tyrus and I think that is a bad idea in a situation where you are getting someone back who is not nearly as athletic.

As for the Bulls' PG situation, I like Kirk but don't think he is necessary for this team's success. I almost cannot believe I am typing this, but from a ball-handling and distribution standpoint, I don't think Duhon is a real step down from Hinrich.

by Stay Chisel on Dec 3, 2007 11:44 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Im sure there is a stat

That proves or disproves this oppinion of mine, but i really do believe last year having duhon play the point really screwed up the flow of both the offense and defense.

Although i do believe duhon is a better passer, i also believe that is true only because duhon is not as good of a scorer as hinrich. In other words, duhon can focus only on passing because that is all he can really do (or hit the occaisional three) while hinrich has the ability to make the right passes and hit the right shots (yes i know, hasnt really portrayed that this year).

also just for this year, hinrich still has a better eff than duhon (9.00 vs 6.72??) though i also believe that may also be due to hinrich getting more playing time than duhon.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 3, 2007 12:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Gasol + Skiles = ?

Who's to say that Gasol works any harder in practice or on defense than Tyrus? I admittedly haven't seen Gasol play much, but I wonder.

I like Skiles as the Bulls coach, but as long as he is here I'd always be concerned that any veterans the Bulls acquire might fall short of his capricious standards and spend more time on the bench than we expect.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Dec 3, 2007 10:58 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I've been watching Gasol - he really doesn't fit

with the new Memphis approach. He has turned into an expensive 8-12 foot jump shooter. I agree Sam makes this stuff up - but in this case there may be opportunity lurking behind Sam's madness.

My initial reaction is a bit different than above. Noc is really playing well and TT is still developing and is athletic. I don't think the Griz would consider Kirk but you never know. We then would need a point guard and maybe could get Conley or Lowrey. I am very interested to see how TT guards Nowitzski. Maybe we can throw-in our first round draft-pick plus Joe Smith with Kirk to make it work.

by chgobr on Dec 3, 2007 11:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

why is sam smith a tool?

Lottery Bound Horribulls. the bulls are tanking: http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/11/19/31557/687

by hongydraw on Dec 3, 2007 1:35 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

A few factors to consider

The trade doesn't work as suggested by Smith. Noc is BYC so to make the trade work according to the rules we'd have to include about $3M more. Duhon would do it.
Under this deal, the Bulls would be about $18.5M under the luxury tax threshold next summer (in terms of guaranteed salary). Free agents Ben Gordon, Luol Deng and Chris Duhon and a 1st round pick will either need to be fit into this amount or let go, cause god knows we ain't gonna pay the tax to keep them. I don't think this can be done. Gordon and Deng between them will probably make about this much. In order to make room the Bulls will probably have to do some combination of:

Trading away their first round pick (maybe to seal a deal for Gasol?)
Trade away Thabo (leaving the cupboard pretty bare at the 2/3 spot, but then again, he's not much help there at present
Trading away Griffin for an expiring contract, if possible, would be quite helpful

Looking a little more in depth, if I'm the Bulls, I'd try to also get Kyle Lowry, who's a quality young PG on a rookie deal who could replace Duhon for the next couple of years. In order to do that, the Bulls would also have to include a 4th player to make salaries match. This could be Thabo, Khyrapa (expiring) or Griffin (1 yr left). If I were the Bulls, I think I'd strongly consider offering my pick as inducement to take Griffin, as that would maximize our distance from the luxury tax going into next season. To summarize:
Bulls trade: Noc, Tyrus, Duhon, Griffin, 1st
Bulls get: Gasol, Lowry

The net of that is it gives us $19M to resign Deng and Gordon next year before hitting the luxury tax, plus we get a quality backup PG, which otherwise isn't going to be in the budget.

by Sports2 on Dec 3, 2007 1:38 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I don't want to believe the tax mandate

so I won't yet.

But to argue a different point, the Grizzlies aren't going to throw in Lowry. He's good, young and cheap.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 1:42 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lowry and the Tax

OK, I know you didn't want to argue the tax point, but I think it's abundantly clear that even if there's not a "no luxury tax - ever!" mandate, the Bulls are likely to have avoiding and/or minimizing the tax as a consideration in their thinking. They certainly have up to this point, so the smart thing for them to do is to figure out how to keep acquiring cheaper players to replace role players types contract situation makes untenable within the Bulls' salary structure.

Anyhoo, I agree Lowry's not just a throw in, but I think a 1st rounder going back is fair compensation. Look at their situation: they've got the #4 pick, Conley, on the bench and there's no way he's not the future there. And they've got Stoudemire who's contract and play sucks badly enough he's not going anywhere. Plus they're bleeding money. So reloading Lowry into a draft pick that can help them makes fairly decent sense to me. Especially if, to pull of the Gasol trade, they ended up taking back Duhon anyway.

----------------

For those reasons I don't see how Kirk makes any sense for the Grizzlies or how it makes much sense for us to trade him.

My bigger question about the whole thing would be what kind of sense Ty and Noc make for them. I think if I were them I'd be looking for picks and cap relief.

by Sports2 on Dec 3, 2007 7:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I know I'M interested...

Please Pax, give this one a chance.

by T Maple on Dec 3, 2007 1:41 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I cannot acces the ESPN trade machine at work

Would Hinrich + Smith (possible 1st round pick if we have to)for Lowry + Gasol work? What we lose at point guard we more than make up in the paint.

by chgobr on Dec 3, 2007 1:57 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Ooops Lowry or Conley could work.

by chgobr on Dec 3, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you were the Griz...

...would you make this trade? No way!!

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Dec 3, 2007 2:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I believe the Griz save money

The Griz need point guard help now. Hinrich helps Lowry or Conley grow, Smith replaces Gasol. Joe Smith should be open for the 8-12 footers they need in their offense. We sweeten the deal with a draft pick. I think Hinrich's salary is in the $9 mil range which makes this work from a financial perspective and Joe Smith is a two year deal at about $5 mil. The Griz save significant money making this deal. I'm trying to convince them as I write this.

by chgobr on Dec 3, 2007 2:26 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Use Noc and Gordon

to trade for a 2 or a 4. If a 4 (like Wilcox from Seattle) then move TT to 3 (which he says he would like to play) and Deng to 2. If a trade can be made for a 2, leave Tyrus at 4 and Deng at 3. Now Hinrich would be able to guard the opponent's point, the turnovers would be reduced substantially, our defense would improve, and maybe Hinrich comes out of his funk. If only we knew that Deng could play the 2.

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 2:30 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

I love a month of basketball

it can tell us so much, like Nocioni+Gordon = Chris Wilcox.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 2:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Wilcox.

One average player and one well below average player for a slightly above average player--that's not bad.

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

From Wages of Wins

Wins Produced WP48

Gordon 4.5 0.081
Noc 1.9 0.064

Wilcox 5.7 0.106

Of course these metrics take into account turnovers and effiecency, not only scoring. Are these stats relevant in eveluating players? I think they are.

I guess I should restate my thesis: two below average players for an average player.

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 3:51 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WoW

Wages of Wins predicts that Rajon Rondo will be the MVP of the NBA this season.

Wilcox doesn't really stand out to me as a strong NBA player. He's a more athletic Brian Cardinal, but I'm really not scrambling to acquire him.

by NBA Observer on Dec 3, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Are these stats just for this year?

I would hardly say Wilcox is worth both of those guys. Gordon and Noc's stat's will come around. Wilcox is the most avg guy of the group, this trade would be a Bulls killer.

by majoyenrac on Dec 3, 2007 3:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If that's from this season

your thesis sucks. 14 games for chrissake.

If that's from last season I'll fall back on the idea that WoW hates Ben Gordon.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

big deal

WoW sucks!

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 3, 2007 4:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

If you're a Ben Gordon fan

The statistics were from last year. WoW also doesn't like AI, amoung others. But at some point efficiency and turnovers matter. Like Rasheed Wallace said a couple of years age, "Ball don't lie."

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

he also says Berri's method is fishy

Well, I'm guessing he would.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 3, 2007 4:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

WoW blows

Sheed says "the ball don't lie" every five minutes, and I'm sure his family is pretty concerned about that.

It's essentially PER with the box score data weighted differently. Shrug of the shoulders to Berri; there are better ways to assess the value of an individual player.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 3, 2007 4:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

And they are...

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 5:20 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Start with Dean Oliver's stuff

and what Justin Kubatko has built on it with Win Shares at B-R.com. I still like Dean's stuff the best. Look at Mike Goodman's eWins, althoug he only makes a limited amount public on the APBR board. Look at Roland Ratings and adjusted +/-. There's alot of things that are better than WoW out there.

by Scotter on Dec 3, 2007 5:32 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

adjusted +/- for starters

although there isn't historical, or current adjusted +- available yet. +- rating at 82games is a good way to figure how much value a player has to his team.

I like Hollinger and Oliver's logic-based stats more than Berri's too. Regression techniques are neat, but I'd rather use a stat created by someone who realizes the box score doesn't reveal everything.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 3, 2007 5:34 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

whoa

a few slashes will really mess with the formatting.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 3, 2007 5:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i

like chris wilcox, and right about now, i'm sure skiles would have given his left nut to pass on big ben and acquire wilcox in restricted free agency before last season, but to say that he would be worth a gordon/noc combo is a bit tough...

by leeac on Dec 3, 2007 4:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We would be getting rid of two problems

Okay, Noc and Gordon for Wilcox and ???

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 5:19 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

i

can't see the sonics parting with wilcox. to be more realistic, maybe we should take a shot at a defensive big (with 'medium' offensive potential) who is on the outs with his own team, perhaps a 'channing frye' type who just lost his starting job (and apparently all of his minutes) to Joel Pryzbilla on portland. portland is struggling a bit with their young team, so maybe they would take khryapa back if we tossed in an adrian griffin for his 'veteran leadership' qualitites. griffin is not doing much here in chicago, and portland is the only team that knows what khryapa can do, so if there is any chance in hell of dropping khryapa this year, i would think it could back back to portland. frye is not a defensive game changer, but anything would be an upgrade from aaron gray's presence (or lack of) under the basket.

by leeac on Dec 3, 2007 6:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

That's the rub

I don't see the Sonics doing that either. As far as trading for another (different) big I'm having difficulty caring about that; besides, the game is about to start.

by hlac on Dec 3, 2007 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Noc and Gordon

should be enough to get gasol.They don't need Tyrus cause of Gay

by Option27 on Dec 3, 2007 3:04 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

They have two Tyrus' now

Stromile not so Swift and Hakim Warrick.

by NBA Observer on Dec 3, 2007 3:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Although remember how when

the Bulls won their 2nd threepeat people were characterizing them as a bunch of 6-6 to 6-8 guys who were like interchangeable parts? There were exceptions (the three-headed monster at center and Randy Brown), but that is an intriguing model, if you want to call it that.

Then, with the Pistons championship and perennial contender teams, again you had a bunch of long-reach guys, all in the 6-7 to 6-9 range (exceptions there were Billups and Wallace).

If the Griz marched out a lineup that included Noc and Tyrus Thomas, they'd have a pretty fearsome front line in terms of agility, open court play, above-the-rim potential and defense: Rudy Gay, Stromile Swift, Hakim Warrick, Noc and Tyrus Thomas. They wouldn't have a traditional 7-foot center, but they'd have platoons to throw at the opponent, meaning they could go all out a la the Bulls' Doberman defense. Kyle Lowry, Conley and Stoudamire should all be able to manage a run-n-gun, up-tempo offense and should also be available to hit the 3-ball. Add your Kyle Korver/Steve Novack-type jump shooters and you'd be able to fill it up.

Yeah, this trade is probably not happening...

"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 3, 2007 4:14 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ehhh...

dont the griz have darko? I believe he is 7 feet and can play center.

by Sambossanova on Dec 3, 2007 8:30 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

What makes Sam special

is that he can see what is not there, like a Noc+TT for Gasol deal. I find Sam mostly harmless, but here is how I picture things with Sam:

Sam has a dartboard with the current Bulls 15 man roster. When he creates his trade proposals, he throws a few darts to see which Bulls to include in the column.
Sam also has spent way too much time trying to sell his trade by coming up with his own lyrics for a Pau Gasol song based on the old Huey Lewis and the News tune "Heart and Soul", like MJH (or was it the Hot Dog guy?).

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Dec 3, 2007 3:49 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

While this might be true.

Sam does have a special hatred for Tyrus and seems to be working a deal to get him off the team. Let's just be thankful that Sam is just a "sports writer" and not our General manager, because I feel he already over his head with the "sports writer" job.

by boerwinkle on Dec 4, 2007 8:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So Im thinking

Were keeping noch? Tyrus and Gordon, Tyrus and Hinrich (>>>GAH>>>) Tyrus and Thabo and AG and whoever else doesnt get any playing time (or make the most of the time they do get)

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 3, 2007 10:55 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Smith Does Hate Tyrus

but even a broken clock is right twice a day.

by Sports2 on Dec 4, 2007 8:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hollinger

Sez:

I've been one of the biggest Gasol fans out there, but I watched Portland-Memphis last night and was really not impressed ... wondering if he's playing with some kind of injury or if he's just struggling.

He later called the offer of Noc+Tyrus a joke.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 4, 2007 3:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs