Blog a Bull: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:



Around SBN: MLB Hot Stove: blogging the rumors, trades, signings Bar-right-arrows



We first need a chance to find out if we're wrong

It's getting to the point where it's tough to come up with reasons not to fire Scott Skiles. This team is just abysmal to watch, and especially listen to, when hearing about how they're getting better while scoring 78 points in consecutive games to the Knicks and Raptors. The freaking Knicks! A team that can't play any defense and is always looking for an excuse to roll over and die each game.

This start is beyond any likely scenario going into the season. It will mean braying and gnashing over opportunities lost (especially the made-up kind, like being able to get Garnett). But unless you predicted that Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Sefolosha would all regress, I can't see how clamoring for a major shake-up in the summer would've made enough of a difference now.

Because the sad thing is that this team is so far from their norms it's nearly impossible to find out if they'll be worth keeping long-term, which was a goal coming into this season. Granted, if they stay this bad then then we did find out, but I still don't see that happening.

So Pax assembled this current mess, but he also assembled a very good young team last year that should be improving. So to me he's in the clear for now. Right now his major misfire is the Ben Wallace signing, but there's still time to salvage that.

But Skiles? He's not the main problem, but I don't doubt that Skiles' lineup shenanigans made things worse. The fact that at game 11 he's circled back at the original starting lineup means the early change was mostly arbitrary and pointless in the first place. Not to mention going from starting Adrian Griffin go DNPing him in a week.

Yes, Skiles' teams improve, but this start is beyond repair to become a 'successful' season anyway. A made-up rule is to use 20 games as a good indicator, and even if they win 8 straight they'd be .500 after 20 games, which is a failure. And just because Skiles' teams have started with bad records before doesn't mean they have any special ability to get out of bad records (usually it's a cupcake schedule, which won't be the case this December like the last). And when they do play better, what's 'turning it around'? 44 wins and have Skiles blow at least one playoff game by playing his veterans too much? Getting back to how they have been isn't good enough.

I'm more just wanting Pax to make a statement that this hasn't worked, and lets try something different. Fire Skiles now (or more likely if they lose Tuesday against a not-terrible Atlanta team, so Pax will have until Saturday to make a change, and give the new coach a honeymoon game against Charlotte), get in an assistant to at least play different rotations and give the team a new voice, and then between now and February there's plenty of info to glean and then deals to potentially make. This franchise is still in a good position with a lot of young talent. Lets not waste it by letting Skiles 'figure things out'.

No, Skiles' replacement won't make the Bulls shoot better, but Skiles won't either. So really what's the difference? Skiles is a good coach: I don't even mind his media mindgames with his players, and actually find his comments refreshing, honest, and funny. But while I don't care about his words, I do care about his actions, namely playing time. In that regard he hasn't seemed to have progressed with his talent, and while I still think he's quality, he's replaceable.

Replaceable like any coach. It happens when teams are this far below expectations. Do that first, and players come next. The players are more to blame, and it's not quite fair, sure, but it's not as if there's a zero-sum blame equation, and so just because the players are bad doesn't mean that Skiles isn't also bad. And it's easier to let him go first.

0 recs | Comment 148 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

I keep thinking to myself
The same exact thoughts you've written about.  Then key questions also keep popping into my head. Like who would be a quick replacement? Boylan?

I think of how many intern coaches make the season actually better. Would that symbolize giving up on the season?

I also think of whether Paxson would rather make a trade first to see how Skiles would handle whatever new player the Bulls were to get. Maybe he figures he owes it to Skiles to give him that go to guy needed to win.

by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:14 PM CST   0 recs

I suppose
but I'd rather make a panic coaching change than a panic trade.

But it is good to know that Nocioni is playing pretty well, and is eligible to be dealt 12/15. Between that and expiring contracts it's conceiveable that Pax gets someone good enough to transcend Skiles' rotation issues.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 25, 2007 11:18 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

But that's the thing
So what if you get in panic coach mode and hire a man the players don't respond to as well as they did with Skiles.

Obviously, there are a certain amout of players (superstars) out there that want to come and play for Chicago. That being said, they know playing in Chicago means being coached by Skiles.

Who's to say the attraction to Chicago will still be there once Skiles is replaced. You may say this is irrelevant but it's not because as much as we all regret the Wallace signing today, I believe Wallace also factored in being coached by a defensive minded coach and a man a lot of people respect around the league like Skiles.

by Option27 on Nov 25, 2007 11:30 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Eh?
I think Wallace came for the money.

I like the idea of the coaching change now. It would give the Bulls a chance to possibly hire someone mid-season (oh, the trouble Tyrus will have then!), but they'll at least be among the first to be able to go after one immediately after the season.

As I've said before, I'm just ready for a different offensive philosophy. Hinrich, Wallace, Smith and Nocioni are the only current "important" players that they need to stick with to win NOW. Smith doesn't matter, Wallace is irrelevant in offense (and will be gone in the next two years anyway), Nocioni will chuck it no matter what and Hinrich, while showing deficiencies this year, seems smart enough and capable enough to be able to adapt (and who knows how much longer he'll be around anyway).

I feel comfortable in stating that I don't think there are but a select few, if any, coaches out there that could have done more than slightly better with this team over the past four years. However, loyalty doesn't matter when you're trying to win.

They've replaced the me-first attitude with a team-oriented one that tries really hard and plays defense first (Paxson has done that as much as Skiles, though, I believe). Those players will still have that.

Who knows how much difference a coach change would make? As a fan who thinks a stagnation has occurred, though, a change would at least be renewed hope and further optimism. They can't be worse, and a chance at being better makes it the smart move.

The only player change I want to see is a backcourt change. Changing either Gordon or Hinrich (plus contracts) for a better player is the only obvious thing to me. The other guys are too young to give up on quite yet.

With my all-seeing pessimistic fan perspective, I see a coaching change during the season at about 30%, though. That sucks for me.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Nov 26, 2007 12:21 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Talk about jumping the gun...
Skiles has 3 home games coming up and the return of Deng. This is the stetch that proves the team, not the circus roadtrip. While the losses are dishartening and everyone in the universe wants Tyrus Thomas to see more P.T., removing Scott Skiles is not only a knee-jerk reaction, but wouldn't even solve the problem. Giving Tyrus Thomas P.T. isn't going to make the Bulls a better 3 point shooting team (last in the league) nor a better jumpshooting team (last in fg%). And if anyone thinks Tyrus Thomas could play more than 20 minutes with any coach, their dillusional. The way he fouls, i hope hes not the only solution people have.

Chicago fans need to hold there breath for a weak or so because if we go 2 of 3 at home and play the mavs hard, i think it will signal the rebound the team has been waiting for. If not, then we can talk NBA draft, trades, and skiles's head on a stick.

by T MaK on Nov 26, 2007 3:50 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Come on
Beating the Hawks and Bobcats at home isn't going to signal anything.  All that will prove is that the Bulls aren't one of the worst teams in the league.
The greatest dunk ever.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ETzpRdC6WS8

by Big D on Nov 26, 2007 9:57 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

They run a terrible offensive scheme
Dribble, dribble, dribble...forced outside shot, brick. No offensive rebound, as the other team is already streaking down the court for a layup or foul. That has pretty much been the theme of the Bulls in 07. If anything, a coaching change might wake up some of our dead players knowing they are also expendable. Something has to be done,time is running out. I just hope Pax isn't "married" to Skiles in the fact that he will be willing go down with this sinking ship.

by RogersPark Kris on Nov 25, 2007 11:19 PM CST   0 recs

fire skiles now!
been saying it for a year now

by fireskiles on Nov 26, 2007 12:10 AM CST   0 recs

Don't agree
Even though I agree that he has been erratic for most, if not all, of this season, he shouldn't be fired for only 12 games into 2007-2008. The goal, at least from my comprehension, is to get to the postseason, to hopefully go farther from last year. The East is a lot better than last year, but the bottom half of the teams making it to the playoffs this year still won't be great. They can still make the playoffs. Hell, I'd be surprised if they didnt.

I say keep Skiles, and this "core" of this team for the year. Too many people are gung-ho with firings. If the Bulls haven't significantly improved when it matters (in the playoffs), then let the fire sale begin.

"My jumper's so smooth it will seduce your girlfriend." -1958ChiTown

by NittanyBull on Nov 26, 2007 12:30 AM CST   0 recs

Unfortunately, ...
right now, I'd be very pleasantly surprised if they DID make the playoffs !

It does NOT look like they can reverse this any time soon.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Nov 26, 2007 2:06 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

How many games
Do you suggest? Skiles is a good coach no doubt but has one major flaw HIS PERSONALITY. IMO coaches get too much credit for wins and blame for losses in all sports. Your teams personality however is a direct result of the headman in charge. After enduring Floyd, Cartwright, etc. Skiles was given way too credit for the bulls success.  In 2004 playoffs he left Gordon the NBAs leading fourth quarter scorer that year on the bench for long streches against the the Wizards. Already missing Curry and Deng that series Skiles lost that series for the bulls. Last year game 5 vs. The pistons no TT/Sefo in the second half when the bulls collasped. Paxson will eventually fire skiles because no players have improved under his leadership/tactics. Hinrich and Gordon actually seems worse than when they entered the league. Deng is a turnover machine. Noah and TT can't get tick. NOCE has the green light. All players  seem tight. All this is directly on Scott "Sarcasm" Skiles.

by Blacknight23 on Nov 26, 2007 8:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

another reason to make a quick
coaching change is that the moratorium on player movement for summer signees ends in two weeks.  Getting a new coach in now would give him a couple weeks to evaluate what he has here to work with and what changes he's like to make.

The way it's looking, signs seem to point to Noce being the Bulls most tradable asset.  I would love to be able to use him to somehow pry Calderon away from the Raptors.  Also, the next (first?) good game Hinrich has I'd be looking to move him, regardless of who's the coach.   The Bulls need a point guard who is a point guard.  The only reason Hinrich ever gets credited with an assist is that the next touch in line happens to hit his jump shot.

So those are the players I'd try to move first--Noce because he's playing well and has some present value, and Hinrich because he just plain sucks.

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:07 AM CST   0 recs

"the only reason...
...Hinrich ever gets credited with an assist is that the next touch in line happens to hit his jump shot."

Uhhh okkayyy...not that I'm defending Hinrich, but isn't that the way most assists happen??

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 9:51 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

and everytime hinrich gets the ball to wallace
under the rim, wallace dribbles it out.  But you have to actually watch the games and notice what is going on to catch that.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 10:01 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Scottie, what I'm trying to say here,
and perhaps not so well, is that the Bulls' offense consists of throwing the ball around the perimeter until someone chucks up a shot.  Since Hinrich is standing in the middle, the ball tends to go through his hands both clockwise and counter-clockwise.  Hence he gets more assists.  His assists are an accident of court placement, not any particular skill on his part at getting the ball to a well-placed scorer.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:11 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

ah ok
that makes more sense...and I do agree.  Hinrich's assists do tend to look and feel different than a Chris Paul or Steve Nash assist.

I was always taught, and have always heard the following:  "don't pass to make a pass, pass to make a PLAY".  As corny as that sounds, it's true.

I've never thought that Kirk was/is the ideal PG.  I don't think he or the Bulls have thought that either.  But for some reason, his deficiencies at the position are showing way more than ever this season.

But it's the whole team though.  I feel like the passes everyone makes are just blind, no-direction-in-mind kinds of passes.  Not enough do you see setup passes, where you can tell one teammate is setting up another.

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

the real problem
Hinrich isn't as good as Nash or Paul.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:39 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I remember when people argued on here . . ,
That Hinrich was better than Chris Paul.  Damn, Paul sure has made that argument sound ridiculous.

by Big D on Nov 26, 2007 11:19 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

ahem...
I believe the argument was that you couldn't say yet that Paul was better, not that Hinrich was better.  There's a difference.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:31 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I agree...
...I was stopping short of saying that though...didn't want the "Captain Kirk Fanclub" members here to come out and get me  :-)

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:25 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I was being facetious
of course Hinrich isn't as good as Nash or Paul. They're top-10 players (let alone PGs) in the entire league.

Hinrich is more around top ten at his position, he's not as good as those guys. From what I read here, when people say 'real' or 'pure' point guard, they really mean 'I wish our PG was an MVP candidate'. Hinrich's not, and if you think that this team has to have an elite PG to win then it's a tall order.

Assuming he gets back to his normal level I don't see Hinrich as part of the problem. But until he does, yes it's a big reason this team sucks.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:34 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

I just wish for the latter
...that Kirk would at least start to play like he did last season (his "normal level").  Most of us here who have any real sense knows that he will never be top-10 in PGs or top-10 in the league...I think we just want him to be what he is capable of though...

I know he's not as bas as he is currently playing, but he'll never be as good as Nash or Paul either...but he can be decent enough for the team to take the East.

And you're right, as much as I hate to say it and admit it, as Kirk goes, the team usually goes.  Him playing so bad is a big reason they suck right now...(sigh)

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:43 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

meant to say
"bad", not "bas"

by ScottieCartwright on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

But Matt, name a starting point guard
worse than Kirk Hinrich. Rajon Rondo, Mardy Collins, Acie Law, Luke Ridnour are pretty much the only ones if you look out across the NBA Depth Charts.

http://www.insidehoops.com/depth-pacific.shtml

This puts Hinrich in the bottom 5 at his position. Not the top 10.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:22 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Depends on whether you are talking about
his play this season or over his career - I think most people would agree he has not played anywhere near the level the Bulls expect or need him to play, but the 12 game sample from this season isn't exactly a better measure of his abilities than his career to date.  Over the past several years, he has hovered right around the #10 point for PGs.
"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Nov 27, 2007 6:27 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Worthless moves
I don't know if there are enough moves Chicago can make with players or coaches that will do anything to stop Jemario Moon from looking like a hall of famer against the Bulls.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 9:15 AM CST   0 recs

did you see taht he was
getting compared to Dr. J in today's Sun-Times?  OMG!
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:17 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

I like the honeymoon game
Jason Richardson is playing as poorly as he did last season too.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 9:26 AM CST   0 recs

How much of this blame falls on Paxson...
...for getting involved in the highly publicized trade talks that set the tone for distraction for this team right from the get-go?

Certainly, this is a business, and it is the man's job to take care of player personnel moves in order to make the team better.  But, as I wrote at Taking it to the Rack in the season's first week, this is a young roster with just two rotation regulars (Smith and Wallace) above the age of 27.  Most of the young core has never played for another NBA team (Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Duhon, Nocioni, Thomas, Sefolosha).  While they may be big boys in big business, they aren't grizzled veterans, and it is certainly easy to see how the constant rumors swirling over several of them could have been a major distraction at season's start that led to a lot of tentative play.  Once you fall into that rut, it can be hard to get out of.

While Pax's job is to make the team better, he had what certainly appeared (and still appears) to be a very solid young core that looked like it was only going to improve with time.  In the eyes of many, he didn't NEED to bring in the likes of a Bryant, but once he officially went after him (which he did publicly enough), he likely needed to make a move of some sort simply to calm the nerves of his players, who in some regards may still be waiting for that proverbial other shoe to drop.  He can say all he wants to that trade talks are over, but the fact is that it's a company line that likely won't be believed until February and then likely revisited again in the summer.  

I wondered in the initial column whether or not once the Kobe talks broke down, Pax should have looked to make a small, largely inconsequential move just to make the "There, I made my move, now I'm done" gesture to his players and coach.  Perhaps it would have provided a bit more security for them and allowed them to go out and just play the game at ease.

With all that in mind, it seems to me that Matt's suggestion to fire Skiles makes more sense than ever.  It would in effect be that "shake things up" move that would allow the players to loosen up -- at least for a time -- as they had their shot to once again prove their worth as a unit under a new coach.  It makes sense right now because there is still ample time to salvage this season, and it makes sense right now because if my theory about the psyches of the players has any merit to it, this type of move may help correct it without having to make any sort of trivial personnel move simply for the sake of making a move.

Perhaps I'm reading much too far into the issue of what Paxson's negotiating with the Lakers (and his failure to lock up Deng and Gordon) long term did to this team to start the season.  But I figure it's worth a thought.  I'd be curious to hear some thoughts on this.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:28 AM CST   0 recs

And I'm an idiot
...for not seeing bullhockey's very similar diary on a very similar point to mine above before I wrote my comment.  Well said on his part.

I would still further expound it to say that ultimately, this theory only makes the firing of Skiles a more viable idea.  Whether or not it's fair for Skiles to be the only fall guy for a problem that may be rooted in a fault of Paxson's -- who I believe did need to pull the trigger after the Kobe talks got as close as they did -- is up for debate, but that's the game (and the business) for you.

-sw

by Steve Weinman on Nov 26, 2007 9:40 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Thanks, Steve
I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:23 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Firing Skiles
Is a correct step and should be taken, but still a couple more major issues
must be resolved before this team is ready for its preseason hype.

1) Hinrich, the leader, and the total guard play is unacceptable.
They are too small, and can't score, dish effectively, slash or finish at the basket.
The court leadership and awareness is very low, and its bad when Duhon is the best PG and Gardner looks
good.  Thabo is probably on the "bust" radar.
OnCurry is another combination clone of part Hinrich and part Gordon and also too small.
Paxson appears to like similiar players.
2) Wallace, Tyrus and Noah are basically the same type of players, one of theses clones is expendable,
and hopefully for a scorer.

Unfortunately, the above two issues aren't easy fixes, but still a goal and target.

by exult463 on Nov 26, 2007 9:48 AM CST   0 recs

Problem with #2
No chance that Noah and Thomas are anything like Wallace.  Wallace is the only defender we have in the post that can hold the paint against a big time low post scorer.  Noah and Thomas can get token plays, but they are not going to consistently deny position and the low block feeder pass.  Only Wallace can do this on the roster.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 11:52 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

On Point 1
"Pax appears to like similar players" to a) each other? b) himself, back in the playing days? c) both. It's a rhetorical, multiple guess question, sort of.

2) Wallace doesn't get near enough credit around here for what Observer points out. Even if he doesn't seem his old self (just old?) currently, I say Bulls would still be hard pressed to find someone better to lead the team vs Shaq, Howard, Garnett...Problem being, most of the time he's out there, the opponent isn't that substantial post threat, and everyone notices how it's 4 on 5 on offense. If TT and Noah set the same screens and play on man as well, then they're clones with better offensive (Noah? Not yet) capabilities.

Given the two small guards and the smallish Wallace, it' amazing the defense is as good as it is. And equally so that the offense was okay/"not sick" last year. These are the two major personnel issues for the team, and remain for whoever is coach.

by marionette on Nov 26, 2007 3:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

After the weekend carnage I want some hope
to compete for a championship.  We don't have to win but I want hope we have a shot at it.  Last year was fun because we had a shot at the finals.  Once in the finals you never know what could happen.  Winning a championship requires a great deal of luck and some great players.  All I want is to have some hope.  At best, if we re-group this year and somehow make the playoffs what do we get?  We cannot compete with Boston or Orlando, Phoenix, SA, etc.  At worst we continue in the muck we are in.  Neither option appeals to me.  Firing Skiles feels like a panic move to shake things up.  It may work but doesn't address the real issue which is the composition of the team.

Use the year to better get a feel for what we have or don't have.  Let's throw in the towel and go with Noah, TT and Grey.  That would guarantee a lottery pick.  Maybe we get lucky and pick up Hibbert, Thabeet, etc. and we get lucky again and the pick turns out to be a ligitimate low post threat.  This makes us a contender with our present group.  We can make a decision after the draft if we have the right coach.  Playing Noah, TT and Grey is risky and painful, but it increases the liklihood of a lottery pick and hope.  We don't get there with this present group.

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 9:53 AM CST   0 recs

Oh yea
Thabeet would be perfect in the bulls system.  He fouls a lot, is a good shot blocker, cant shoot for shit, cant finish inside, and has no post game.  But he is tall and seems like a good character with potential. While i like Hibbert, the direction the bulls offense will take will decide how well he would fit in.  If the bulls are going to run a lot and try to emulate phoenix, which I think they sometimes do, then he wont fit in much.  The phoenix comparison also has to do with the fact that the bulls used to be able to shoot three point shots.  thats hurt them this year a lot.  Quick three pointers and open three pointers served them well alst year 9I am pretty sure they were top 5 in three point percentage and nocioni, hinrich and gordon all shot above 38 percent or something).

by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:12 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

It's not about the mindset.
It's about the talent on the court.

While I generally agree with you that the Bulls have some talent in their core, the problem is they also have some deficiencies in their core...and the real problem is that all their deficiencies tend to line-up with each other, rather than compensate for each other.

For example, in this Bulls line-up--Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, Thomas and Wallace--what stands out at 4 of the 5 positions?  Everyone is too small.  Only Deng matches up, size-wise, with the players he has to defend.

The Bulls roster, though talented, is completely unbalanced.  Other teams in this league are smart enough to figure out ways to exploit opponent's deficiencies.  There are a number of things they can do with the roster as presently constituted...but going smaller, which Skiles did by starting Griffin, is not the way.

And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 9:56 AM CST   0 recs

I'm convinced
that the 'being small' makes people feel really sad more than it actually hurts the team. They were the best defense in the league last year while being small. And it wasn't all 6'11" PJ Brown.

I agree that going smaller is a bad idea, but that's mostly because the smaller players aren't just smaller but not as good.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:06 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Last year may be an aberation
where we over-achieved in a very weak East.  We compensated for our size via effort.  This year effort will not work in an improved East.  A genuine threat in the middle with our present group, plus effort, and we have a contender.  The threat in the middle is the missing piece.  Maybe Skiles is the wrong coach but I do not believe there is a right coach if we cannot find the missing piece in the middle.

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 10:14 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Well then what about the two years before that?
The way I remember it, the Bulls led the league in defensive field goal percentage in 04-05 AND in 05-06. In 06-07 they finished in 2nd place to the Rockets.

3 years of being #1 or #2 in defensive field goal percentage is no aberration.

The question is (as mentioned in other posts) how the team could have regressed almost to a man in team defense.

Part of it is Ben Wallace showing his age, so that one ankle sprain and he looks like Luke Ridnour on a lot of plays on defense.

Part of it is the uptick in talent assembled by other teams' GM's (such as what Colangelo is building in Toronto, or the influx of high draft picks in Atlanta, or the fact that Milwaukee is healthy this year after being injury-riddled last).

And part of it is poisonous team chemistry that was once golden.

I thought the Bulls were back... turns out they're just a back end...

by bullhockey on Nov 27, 2007 12:29 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

It can always get worse
Just consider that when pining for change just for the sake of change.  Even if that's SOP in the NBA, it very rarely seems successful.

For the entirety of his tenure here, most folks have argued this team was "more than the sum of its parts".  Well, isn't that as much on coaching as the current mess?

I'm not arguing Skiles is without flaw, or that he's the right coach in the long run, but I neither see anyone obviously better nor have a lot of confidence in Paxson (who hasn't exactly set the world on fire with his decision-making the last couple of years) to pick the right guy.

It's quite possible that if we fire him the team simply becomes "equal to the sum of its parts" and fairly mediocre.

by Sports2 on Nov 26, 2007 10:08 AM CST   0 recs

firing Skiles
I really don't see how this is going to help.  I know you love Tyrus Thomas and want to see him get more minutes, but else than possibly the first game of the season, none of the games have been lost because of a stretch without him on the floor.  The team is playing far too terribly for that.  What are your other gripes?  Surely not Duhon playing more than Sefolosha because even the largest Duhon hater couldnt make a case for that.  Obviously starting Adrian Griffin was insanity but we would have lost those games anyway.

I've appreciated Skiles the past few seasons not from a defensive standpoint, but from an offensive one.  I really dont think theres any other coach in the league that could come up with an offense to get this team of jump shooters to score enough points to give their defense a chance to win it for them.  And therefore I don't think firing him will accomplish anything except perhaps an even more painful offense to watch.

Really the problem is personnel.  I think at this point we've got to consider making an uneven trade in the other teams favor just to start fresh.  Maybe the Grizzlies would take Deng, Hinrich and Noah for Gasol?  Sure our team would have less talent but ast this point, I don't see us getting much more than that and this current team is not going to win it all.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 10:23 AM CST   0 recs

"would've lost the games anyway"
so?

Like I said just because the talent is also to blame doesn't mean the coach is absolved.

Also I think there's something to be said about the coaching staff failing to developing these guys to not be just jumpshooters too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 10:32 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

maybe
I should be more clear.  I think that we probably should fire Skiles.  Its not like this is the Tim Floyd Bulls where no coach on the Earth could coach them.  He has talent to work with.  But just firing Skiles won't solve the problems.  I think if anything we need a total overhaul right now.  Not rebuilding, but hopefully something that could keep us in the playoff hunt this year while also maneuvering towards the future.

So fire Skiles sure, but make a trade too, kind of like the Bulls trading Jalen Rose around the same time they fired Cartwright.  Getting us a multidimensional scorer and a real point guard would be nice.  I wonder if the Grizz would part with Lowry since they have Conley too.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 1:10 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

that rose trade
was mostly just to dump the extra year of Rose's salary.

I wouldn't mind a trade, but unless you are rebuilding the only worthwhile player leaving will be your guy Nocioni. I don't think trading the underperforming youth is a good idea at all.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 1:19 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

How about
trading underperforming/undersized youth?!

::cough "Gordon" cough::

by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 2:11 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

well there's some that think he's underpeformed
his whole career. I don't.

He's underperformed for 12 games, and 'historically' (to use a Skiles term) is the best offensive player on the team. So, since this team is already an absymal offense, I wouldn't deal him.

and 'undersized'. cripes, can we stop saying that for 24 hours? If he plays well it doesn't matter if he's short.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:15 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Dealing Gordon
You can deal Gordon so long as you're getting some semblance of a scoring option in return.

How about Gordon and Hinrich for Igoudala and Andre Miller?  Maybe Billy King can read Zeke's "Notes to be a successful GM" book.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 2:44 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Not a bad idea
fleecing Billy King, I mean.

I still don't like the idea of trading Hinrich and Gordon when they're both playing awful. But in reality GMs are likely perceptive enough to know it's only 12 games. (maybe, this is the NBA after all)

I'd be careful with Miller, he's having his worst season and is 31. And he's not a good outside shooter, which is a red flag for a bad decline as he gets older. Iggy can't shoot that well either for that matter. So at least we wouldn't be a jumpshooting team anymore! And we'd be tall!

(I guess it all comes down to how good you think Iguodala will be long-term)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 2:54 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Sixers and Bulls
Nearly the same team in my view.  The Gordon/Hinrich for the two Andres would just give Chicago new pieces to move around.  I probably wouldn't keep Miller, but I do think he has a dribble penetration game that spread our offense.  Since Gordon and Hinrich would go, Thabo would become the defensive wizard guard.

In the 2004 draft I wanted Chicago to take Igoudala.  Deng has turned out to be a good player and I wonder if Igoudala and Deng could play on the floor together and mesh.

by NBA Observer on Nov 26, 2007 3:09 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

well
I think getting Davis had a lot to do with the trade too.  It was a no defense playing chucker for a no nonsense rebounder.  The salaries mattered but werent the only thing.

And I think trading Deng or Gordon for a different type of player isnt really rebuilding.

by JSlakov on Nov 26, 2007 7:48 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

Skiles hasn't helped
the shooters become more complete offensive players. The coach is far less valuable than any player ('cept A-Drain), and really should be the first to go when the team performs well below their normal levels of production.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 26, 2007 10:33 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Normally, I would disagree with you,
simply on principle.  But when every sportswriter with access comes back with quote after quote about the Bulls looking like they're just going through the motions, it really does fall on only one person, the coach.  
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:47 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

The thing with making a huge trade like that
I'm not to the point where I think the team needs to start over, which is more or less what I would consider trading away multiple starters to be.  While no one on the team is really playing in a way to support an argument against gutting the team, they are also all (with the exception of the rooks, where there is no baseline) generally playing worse (and significantly worse in many cases) than at any time in the past.  Even if we have a team with nothing more than good role players, any one of them could/should benefit from playing with a better/more established/"star"/whatever.  So in my mind it makes sense to avoid the desperation trade, because I think it's a reasonable assumption that the guys that remain behind get back closer to their mean as the season goes on, leaving a team that can compete.  No matter who the Bulls trade for, if the end result is that the new guy plays with a bunch of bench guys, the team most likely won't be competitive this year AND is several pieces away next year as well.

If there is other info out there I don't have - if Pax is pretty certain Deng or Gordon won't sign here, if it comes out that one guy on the team is killing chemistry, etc. - that changes things, of course.  But I hate the idea of a trade based on "Bulls suck, so we need a trade even if they'll still suck afterwards."

"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Nov 26, 2007 1:12 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

The Question is this . . .
Now that it looks like the Lakers are kind of struggling, would you now include Deng AND Gordon in a deal for Kobe? And keep Noc at the SF spot?

by Option27 on Nov 26, 2007 10:29 AM CST   0 recs

forget about kobe.
it's not going to happen.  Witht the Bulls in such disarray Kobe would just invoke his no-trade.
And worse we may be yet: the worst is not so long as we can say, "This is the worst."

by alec on Nov 26, 2007 10:37 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

Since either Deng or BG will probably be gone
after the season, I'd throw both in and Noc, for salary reasons, and start Thabo at the three.  Thabo wouldn't have to score and could play defense and rebound.  All of a sudden the bulls could run with Tyrus at the 4 and things would be very different.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 26, 2007 11:29 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

yea
and then we can become the first team in the NBA since Wilt Chamberlain's teams to have more than half our points scored by one player.  Im sure kobe will be thrilled too!!!!

by Sambossanova on Nov 26, 2007 3:17 PM CST to parent up   0 recs

If the Bulls get to .500 in Jan, the season's fine
The season's still young.
Twelve games is too soon for change.
Let's talk at thirty.
Haiku strike: until the Bulls win, I will comment only in haiku.

by preverbal on Nov 26, 2007 10:53 AM CST   0 recs

Who would we hire?
I think we need an offensive minded coach. But I can't think of anybody to hire?  Ideas?

by haze on Nov 26, 2007 11:02 AM CST   0 recs

dunno.
I think midseason there isn't enough time (or candidates) to bother, so just promote an assistant.

But offseason? you're right, a lot of the available guys (VanGundy, Carlisle, Dwayne Casey) aren't known for offense.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 26, 2007 11:07 AM CST to parent up   0 recs

The low point of the Post Jordan era
for me was the Saturday Knick debacle.  From my vantage point all it took to win the game was heart.  Knowing they were missing shots the Bulls didn't adjust.  That game was a gut check and the Bulls fell short.  The Knicks were so bad they could have folded mid-way through the second period even with Bulls poor shooting if the Bulls really wanted to win.  You win that game even shooting poorly.  There was something in the Bulls that didn't want that game bad enough to fight through poor shooting and still win.  That game was a turning point for me that the small-ball, jump-shooting experiment has failed.  

by chgobr on Nov 26, 2007 11:10 AM CST   0 recs

Knicks loss sucked
I almost thought I should head down to MSG to watch the game, glad I didn't, didn't even watch the 2nd half on my DVR after I accidently found out they lost

the list of Bulls problems is long, but they should be better then what they are showing

Wallace - injured to start season, even when healthy he is no longer a force.  When undersized like he is he has to rely on superior energey, strength, speed, jumping but those all get worse with age and pounding on body.  Chandler needed to leave Bulls but Wallace is no longer piece to push Bulls to championship level, he's just a vet C that hopefully does enough that his lack of offense doesn't hurt too much (probably has not been case every game)

Thomas - for good or bad he needs to play, he can be the difference when he is energized and on his game.  Of course he is going to make some mi