Bulls-Suns postgame venting thread
It's late, few incites.
I'm looking forward to the game flow in the morning, but after tying the game in the 4th, Skiles made a major misstep in trying to go extra-small (Duh/Hinrich/Gordon/Noc/Deng?), getting destroyed by Marion and Diaw.
Even at their best it's tough to beat the Suns in their house, so mistakes like that loom large.
As does the great 'spark' experiment:
Nocioni: 41m -14
Thomas: 23m +12
With ideas like these, maybe Skiles should just sit out a few plays.
Overall the team played well and there were enough decent performances to go around, including Deng and Wallace (who wasn't spectacular or anything, but better). And even Nocioni didn't play terrible, he just shouldn't be starting and getting over 40 minutes. Gordon and Hinrich have yet to permanently get their heads out of their asses, so this season's a tough sell until that happens.
This was the toughest game of the trip, so best it's out of the way now. I sure wish these lineup shennigans weren't looming to quell any optimism of a quick turnaround, as I can't help but feel we'll be waiting a few weeks just to undo whatever damage that causes, even after everyone's game returns to normal.
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Good point on the late game lineup change
Why would you try up the temp and fall right into Phoenix's hands? If anything, you keep Phoenix in a half court game. The Bulls got 5 fouls on Amare, they should have kept attacking with a normal sized lineup. Would it kill Skiles to try out playing Noah? At least he would know how to play defense and guard a pick and roll.
by RogersPark Kris on Nov 16, 2007 12:48 AM CST reply actions
yeah with amare out
I chalk this loss up to Skiles and the coaching staff. Skiles didn't really impress me with his substitutions at all.
by brianmita on Nov 16, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions
God for a while I was starting to see hope!
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:49 AM CST reply actions
no prob
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:51 AM CST up reply actions
Barbosa
I saw Brian Skinner out there too. I think he clocked a whopping 2 minutes of play.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions
and you thought I forgot
::opens frozen envelope::
no surprise, it's miserabull. First class jerk. He will be missed by few.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:50 AM CST reply actions
This is the greatest thing...
It's amazing the drop off in play.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:51 AM CST reply actions
Hmmm
Typos, I know - but that's so freudian I can't help myself.
inside joke homage to wizznutzzz
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:54 AM CST up reply actions
OK, good to know.
You know what I love is how all our team crumble!
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 12:56 AM CST reply actions
You've just been spoiled
No the Bears are good every 20 years.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:08 AM CST up reply actions
just got back from the game
You saw it in person
Marv Albert said there was some noise from Bull fans when they went up 83-81, true?
yeah we got suns season tickets
A reluctant
Two years ago, I doubt there was one Bulls fan in the $$$ seats. In fact, few Suns fans seemed to care much that night.
I actually think the Lakers game will be worse
With Kobe being in the middle of all the trade rumors a couple weeks ago, it would be just like him to have something to prove - whatever that is I do not know - but he will likely be on his game Sunday as will the rest of the Lakers and it could end up being flat out ugly.
I agree I have been watching them play and they
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:15 AM CST up reply actions
Odom isn't close to right
Yeah, they've been playing well. DFish helps alot (compared to Smush!). Still think Bulls get one of 2 in LA, though.
you never see Deng in the 4th quarter.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:39 AM CST up reply actions
I watched
The "offense" was usually Noc (unfazed!) and Kirk passing it a little between themselves (or just going quickly one on one!) while the other 3 "spaced" the perimeter. So Wallace's absence didn't really help in a way.
Looking at the whole game, Hill usually checked Lu. Bell had the most trouble (that put back to end the half, for example). Barbosa was the only one he didn't score on, which might not mean anything, but might mean putting Lu at the 2 won't be so great. Deng was just easier for Hill and Bell to deal with in the 4th. Either they were more focused, he was less so, or the Bull offense got a little wierd with the small line up.
IF Bullls will play hard
to be genuis we can beat both LAs.I wish.
We have to beat Kobe and Nickolson!
Go Bulls!There is still Hope.
But Wallace on TNT almost cryed,seriosly.
RIP
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 1:47 AM CST reply actions
Sums it up
38 MILLION DOLLARS! WTF, mates?
But seriously, Tyrus is going to be a star. He should play 41min, not Noce, especially against a team like this. How many players in the NBA can frustrate Amare like he did? For such a young guy, he showed a lot tonight. Brought energy and some attitude, which we all agree is lacking at times.
If the Bulls make a few more open shots, but play like this, we can win against both LAs, Phoenix is better than they are.
Lakers beat the Sun by 30.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 6:59 AM CST up reply actions
early morning thoughts on the game
Besides that Toronto game, it's all about the 4th quarter for us no matter what happened before. Obviously, it's better to have a lead cushion to fall back on. But since we're playing so poorly, most likely we need to win games in the last period.
Tonight, it was 75-75 going into the 4th, 85-85 midway thru, and even 100-106 late under 2 min with the ball back. But then Hinrich with the bad shot -> turnover. Then Gordon with the bad pass -> turnover. And it's over. I also remember Deng missing his last two shots late ... but you can't fault that b/c they were his only shots of the quarter! Go figure. Get him the ball late please!
Everyone is going to question Skiles' rotations, moreso since we lost, but just a couple of comments:
- even against the small Suns, a lineup of Du/Kirk/BG/Deng/Noc SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN in the NBA ... Diaw/Marion do well against centers/PFs respectively b/c of their quickness. that negates the Bulls small advantage
- where was Noah in the game? perfect matchup for him the run the floor and defend
- where was Big Ben in the 4th? leave him in to guard Amare, especially tonight after he came out with a lot of energy (10 boards in 20 min) ... when Amare leaves, then take him out
- Tyrus should've played the entire 4th quarter, and he should've played more in general (duh)
- Duhon stayed just an extra minute or two too long in the 4th. At first, I was wondering where Gordon was during the first 6 minutes of the 4th, but then I realized Duhon was in doing a good job shutting down Barbosa (until that crucial broken play late).
- Hinrich minutes about right, glad he found his shot
- Noc couldn't play his bench minutes, so Deng played a little too much. would've liked to see Gardner play a little more (guess Thabo still in doghouse)
- Joe Smith never got into rhythm this game ... I thought coaches would notice something like that. why Skiles would put him in at a crucial stretch late is beyond me. Joe is old, can't run with Suns, and can't guard Amare b/c he's paper thin
4th Quarter (last 6 minutes)
Then they just puke all over themselves:
- Hinrich gets the ball poked away and Marion gets the uncontested dunk.
- Gordon throws a horrible pass into the post halfway between Deng & Hinrich. I thought you were never supposed to pass into the post from the top - always from the wing?!
- Hinrich reaches for the ball in the backcourt, gets burned, resulting in a Barbosa trey. Barbosa had so much time he could have tied his shoes before the shot like a Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf free-throw.
- Deng was bad in the 4th. He was close to the basket but short on everything. Was he tired or over-used?
- I'm beginning to shudder everytime I see BG pound the ball at the top of the circle late in games. There was one possesion in the 4th where Kirk clearly wanted the ball back (even Marv commented on it), but Ben wouldn't give it up.
I too wondered
That's it
The other day I used the term "BG Turnover" to describe a different kind of turnover that plagues Chicago. The BG turnover will come from our guards, most of the time it will come from BG, and the TO will be so bad, such a poor demonstration of the game of basketball, that the opponent will have a 5 on 4 break because the Chicago guard to turns it over won't get back on defense.
Toronto converted these. New Jersey converted these. Milwaukee converted these. Only the Toronto game wasn't close. The NJ and MIL games were nail biters. The Suns game falls into the same category.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 8:41 AM CST up reply actions
Super-Ultra-Tiny-Ball
I like Microscopic Ball myself
You could practically hear Marion thinking "throw it to me, I'm totally open - oh, wait, maybe there is a short little guard guy in front of me -just a sec, if I squint a little... Hey, yeah, there is a guy fronting me, but I'm roughly 2 feet taller so he might as well not be there.
Throw me the ball!"
You made my day
The sad part
for all we know
And that's fine, but with the TV timeouts he should only be out a few posessions and then back in. And never should that super-ultra-tiny-ball lineup be in.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:39 AM CST up reply actions
My game images
That said I think TT did a good job both offensively as well as defensively. He impacted Stoudemire and actually played some smart basketball. He is our most improved player and impacts the game. I have a good idea, start TT and have Noc come off the bench.
Is it me or has Thomas lost like 2 inches off his
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 16, 2007 7:13 AM CST reply actions
thought I was the only one
It's strange...he's still explosive...but he just isn't looking like he's getting as high
I really don't care though...as long as he keeps playing well.
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 8:43 AM CST up reply actions
I'm kind
Kirk and BG need to stop with the awful TO's. I hope Kirk has his shot back. It was nice to see him make some last night.
Is it Skiles fault? Since next season is his third year of his contract maybe he won't be asked back.
well see how
I agree about BG.
I think he is trying to do too much
I'm stealing this idea from 'OldeBull'
He rarely shot in rhythym last night, it was annoying.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:41 AM CST up reply actions
Enough with the Curry-Chandler-Crawford
"Skiles calls out Gordon but not NOCE."
I know, it's likely because Skiles knows Noc is who he is, and Gordon's the one who can actually improve from these life lessons. But then Noc isn't only not called out, but rewarded with significant PT.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:37 AM CST up reply actions
question
From my recollection, and this is on par with other games in which Noc has appeared bad on defense, Noc's real dilemma is trying to make up for poor defense from our guards when the opponent sets up a screen at the top of the circle or on either wing just beyond the arc. Sometimes the screener is Noc's man, but typically Noc is away from this play trying to guard his man that is holding position beyond the arc for a drive and kick option.
Essentially, I don't know if I can really bin the blame on Noc trying to close out when he's denying dribble penetration and the Chicago guards aren't protecting the passing lane back to the perimeter shooter.
In the Raptor and Suns games, this scenario played out at least 10 times in each game.
Also, Skiles does bench Nocioni. He did it last season. He's done it this season. If Noc's defense really is awful, and Skiles knows it's Noc's fault, he'll call a timeout just to bench Nocioni.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 11:50 AM CST up reply actions
no specific plays
Plus his help defense is just stepping in front and flopping, a strategy which is sadly effective at times but something I don't approve of.
I can't fault our guards for not stopping the initial penetration, they do a fine enough job and in the NBA it's rarely even slowed, if stopped.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:24 PM CST up reply actions
you must've heard
...it definitely got a couple of "take him out, take him out!" yells from me :-)
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions
I saw those too
I give the Suns credit. I never really watched the them play much in the past, but wow! Their offense flows like a machine. If you make a mistake, they'll make you pay. I was impressed.
by Hiryu on Nov 16, 2007 3:15 PM CST up reply actions
Noc the "unfazed"
Also that Hinrich/Duhon/Gordon/Noc/Deng lineup is probably the worst thing ever. I knew the game was over when that came on the floor.
However, I definitely saw some sparks of the old team.. haven't completely lost hope for the season yet.
anyone
This is the lineup that I thought was ideal for playing the Suns or the Raptors. T2 just plays defense guarding big men. Noc can take the PF defender into the paint.
I wanted Skiles to start this lineup, but Wallace is still in there.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
I believe
For those missing Curry & Crowford...
This is so funny.
Finally Barkley concluded, "I'll bet you if Juanita gets married again, she'll sign a [pre-nup]."
Nash and Barbosa getting calls
The late foul on Kirk Hinrich was the worst call of the game. Nash used his arm to push Kirk off his body. Somehow Kirk was called for the foul.
Later, BG fouled Barbosa in what looked like an intentional foul called from the Bulls bench. He just wrapped up Barbosa away from the ball. Nash then shot two freebies at the line. I have no idea what was called here but it was during a crucial moment of the game.
Barbosa has watched film of Wade and Devin Harris. He's jumping into defenders initiating contact to get free points at the line. The refs are giving him these calls despite the fact that jumping into the defender is a point of emphasis for the officials.
Refs weren't miserable BUT
There were a few of these really bad calls at crucial times that helped the Bulls seal their fate.
Matt... about the GameFlow...
Spend a little time getting to know the gameflow
not sure how much this helps
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:39 AM CST up reply actions
There's also a help link on the site
I love the thing - there are so many statistical things I want to do with the info there, if I can every find the time. Just statistical evidence to back up many of the observations people make, like Lu tending to disappear in the 4th and all, or the Bulls not playing "Bulls basketball" late in games.
Deng
Deng's Defense
He is credited with 2 blocks, 1 steal, and 4 rebounds on the defensive end in the box score.
No stops at the end of the game in he final 8 minutes are the issue.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions
deng's defense
by Sambossanova on Nov 16, 2007 4:40 PM CST up reply actions
at least in the opening stints of the halves
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 4:42 PM CST up reply actions
not that it's anything new
What is up with all of the dumb turnovers?! You won't beat anyone with your backcourt playing like a couple of rookies.
Ben finally started to find his shooting eye a little bit, but come on, he has to quit with the bad passes. Throwing the ball into traffic (not just once but several times) gets old.
Same with Kirk...wtf was he doing on that drive when they cut it to 6?!? It looked like he was playing volleyball and was trying to slap it over the net.
I think the rest of team has started to play a little more even...but the guards have to get it together.
Two missed layups aside, Wallace looked...uhhh, a tiny bit better. Maybe it was the hair? Don't know...but this is one time where I think he should've been out there in the 4th. As was already mentioned, Skiles sat on certain lineups WAY too long. Joe Smith just didn't have it last night but Skiles brought him back in anyway??? Huh??
Other observations:
-I didn't need to see Gardner out there. He looked a little lost to me. I think he only played for a 2-3 minutes or so, but those were 2-3 minutes longer than he should've gotten.
-Where's Thabo??...oh yeah, in the doghouse. He's tall, he's fast...maybe put him on Barbosa for a few?? Damn Skiles...
-Duhon played decent?? (gulp)...actually I was pleased with his play
-Lu disappeared in the 4th. Don't know if that was all on him or a by-product of Kirk finally taking and hitting some shots. Two 4th quarter shots won't cut it though
-Too many minutes and shots for Noce...damn, pass the freakin ball
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:28 AM CST reply actions
*edit*
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions
Gardener
He did miss an open three in the corner. It looked like good form, nice elevation, no hesitation to launch, it just didn't fall.
He did flash to the rim when his man left him to help on the low block. I think it was Du that found him for an easy layup.
His -5 +- rating is likely the result of playing help d and leaving Barbosa open for a three.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:36 AM CST up reply actions
that's why
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
Phoenix wants Thabo. They were going to draft him in 2006. They figured he'd fall and they'd collect him like they did with Barbosa.
Right now, Thabo is only going to make it past Skiles if Duhon is playing terrible.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:12 AM CST up reply actions
They knew
They were heartbroken not to get ATL pick so they could take Noah this year. I was heartbroken I didn't get to see any Noah PT in an open game last night.
BG's turnovers
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions
2TOs, 1FG
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:44 AM CST up reply actions
You don't think Observer actually...
You can read my game notes
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/11/16/75720/560
I'll watch the game again tonight or Sat morning to review.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:07 AM CST up reply actions
either way
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
gameflow
Luol was 0-2 with 2FTs in the 4th quarter. Sheesh.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 9:43 AM CST reply actions
Something worth pondering
Isn't Noc
December 15th
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
Dec 15 is the day
by ScottieCartwright on Nov 16, 2007 10:08 AM CST up reply actions
12/15
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 10:09 AM CST up reply actions
by the way
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions
I honestly think
Now if you could throw in Ben Wallace too, then I'm loving life all over again.
Trib and Sun-Times reports
TYI has the juicy quotes picked out
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
lol, "Thank You Isiah"
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 10:33 AM CST up reply actions
Indeed
Time to rebuild
The next great superstar is in the next year's draft. I'm telling ya, Mayo and Beasley are in the same league as Durant, Howard and LeBron. These are the people you build a franchise around. Derrick Rose is also good but more of a complementary player than a bona fide superstar. After those three the draft really drops off (Roy Hibbert anyone?). I don't mind watching another lottery as long as we get that superstar we need. And yes, we need a SUPERSTAR. And he isn't coming from any of the current Bulls.
And also fire Skiles.
My point is...
I'd like to nominate Boy
by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
no nominations!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:17 PM CST up reply actions
Booooo
by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
well, the fun for you anyway
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:25 PM CST up reply actions
that's what miserabull said last night...
by bullshooter on Nov 16, 2007 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
What drives Skiles crazy?
Our guards are having a similar issue. Their turnovers are bad turnovers, late in the game, that nearly 100% of the time converted into fast break dunks, layups, and sometimes and 1 opportunities.
Even a superstar like Steve Nash will turn it over. He had 5 of them last night. What you need is a balance of good and bad where the good is more often to offset the bad. Nash did that last night by finishing with 15 assists.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 11:55 AM CST up reply actions
Skiles never gave our guards a chance...
Rebuild?
and watching and reading...
I'm not so sure they need to rebuild.
For sure tweek things a bit, and get a "take over in the 4th" leader on the team (enter name here)...
But from what I've seen over the last few years, I think what someone said about this team "outgrowing" Skiles seems more and more correct.
Skiles is a blow-hard, drill sergeant, what-have-you-done-for-me-lately, kiss-ass lover type of coach.
And we've seen it - if you piss Skiles off, no matter HOW good you are, you're gonna be on the bench. And THAT is NOT a good approach.
And I think the guys are tired of that, all the trade BS that happened, and Skiles' general line-up stupidity BS....
And in the end, disenchanted and not enjoying themselves AT ALL because of it.
It shows in their play, the looks on their faces while they're on the bench, and whatever else...
So I don't think they necessarily need to rebuild...
I think rather that perhaps - PERHAPS - Pax needs to make the big decision and pull the plug on Skiles before the team disintegrates....IF it isn't already too late.
Just some thought....
I agree with that, McLovin
I never heard the 'deck of cards' plan
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 12:19 PM CST up reply actions
Rose
But weirdly enough I think one of the Bulls' biggest problems is the point guard position. For all his virtues, Kirk doesn't possess the ability to consistently break down defenses, score or generate offense for others. He's a combo guard, and a good one, but we need someone who can penetrate and score. That lack is probably why we've seen so much Duhon over the last years.
by Freethefro on Nov 16, 2007 12:06 PM CST up reply actions
There have been several athletic PGs
Wow. Kelly Dwyer Just Broke It Down
http://myespn.go.com/blogs/truehoop/0-28-296/Kelly-Dwyer-Breaks-Down-the-Bulls.html
This is nothing that Hot Sh*t College Student (or anyone that reads his site, Thank you Isiah), or any TrueHoop reader has not already read. So excuse me for the repetition, but this is just too good to not discuss here.
Of particular brilliance is the last phrase in the following passage:
"This is still a damn good basketball team. Should they make the playoffs, I like Chicago's chances with any Eastern team outside of the Nets (whom I loathe, to be candid, but match up well against the Bulls)."
Clearly, this man's a genius, as he has perfectly articulated how loathsome the Nets are, despite seeming to always have the Bulls' number.
As for the first part of that quote, that the Bulls are "still a damn good basketball team", his blog entry comes with the requisite amount of irony: He ends by asking us to excuse him, while he's off to "pretend I believe any of this."
I knew Kelly Dwyer was good, but... day-um...
My thoughts
Reality check : these guys suck, season over
by vlad001 on Nov 16, 2007 1:25 PM CST reply actions
The Bulls are a 1/2 game
And to think that they signed Hinrich, out of all people, first. Wow... this braindead tape-job by Paxson is melting before everyone's eyes. This team is lifeless and among the bottom 5 in the NBA.
by vlad001 on Nov 16, 2007 1:28 PM CST up reply actions
Explain to me how this was the hardest game
Suns = random NBA good team that the Bulls can beat or lose to on any given night.
Raptors and Clippers = both on this trip, both OWN the Bulls.
quick explanation
They've lost the past two against the Raps, but before then the Bulls won like 15 straight. You're so overdramatic Hongy.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
i actually think it is 4 losses
the own-ness has been transfered.
your own-ness has been transferred
so, nyah.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 16, 2007 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Clips and Raptors
Raptors have real weaknesses. They have to outscore you to win. Their shooters can get buckets, but they cannot guard anyone. Bargnani can be posted up by point guards. His defense is terrible. He should be target number 1 to get into foul trouble. They'll bring in Kapono who is the same exact player only 4 inches shorter. Play the same strategy.
With losses to the Raptors in Chicago and the Suns in Phoenix, this Bulls team better know how to defeat these 7 second shot clock clubs or, as I said, it's going to be a long season.
The Clippers? We match them well. So long as Cuttino Mobley doesn't shoot 90% from the field we can beat them in their house.
by NBA Observer on Nov 16, 2007 4:15 PM CST up reply actions
I wouldn't be surprised
How come nobody mentioned this?
Sam's a good basketball reporter
He was a great beat writer 20 years ago.
by KT on Nov 16, 2007 3:54 PM CST up reply actions

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