Nocioni's historical shot record

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2007 4:58 PM CST in News Comment 108 comments

UPDATE(11/14): Latest rumor, from KC Johnson (via TYI): Nocioni starting for Tyrus Thomas. Because Skiles hates rebounds. I'd actually be somewhat supportive if it was only for the Phoenix game (since they can't rebound either). But we know Skiles won't change things game-to-game.

Or something. I don't quite get what Skiles is saying to his parrot (at least he seems that way on his radio show, anyway) Brian Hanley:

Nocioni is a guy who's made shots for us, historically, so right now, when we're struggling to shoot, it makes sense to try to get him into that lineup. One of the things that's happened to us is when we miss, the misses start snowballing. We need to find a way early in the game to get some shot-making going. If we do that, we feel the guys will relax and start playing well again.

Funny that this strategy can apply just fine with Nocioni coming off the bench, yet somehow so far he hasn't stopped any 'snowballing' of missed shots. While Noc has a higher FG% than Gordon this year, he doesn't on 3-pointers where he's at 23%, and that's bolstered by a garbage-time performance on Saturday. (Why does Skiles have to do anything? Stuff like this makes me cite stats from 6 freaking games.)

The idea is then presented to (of course) get Gordon out of the lineup, by moving Deng to the two:

The good thing about Lu at the two is; when he's gotten the ball in the post-up area at the two and he's put [the ball] on the deck, teams come and run at him and double a little bit. Then we've moved the ball and missed the shots. We've got to be able to make those. So it's a valuable tool to have. Because it does open up the floor for us a little bit and allow us to move the ball and hopefully step into some good looks. We just have to step up and shoot it.

This is a slightly better idea than starting Duhon, but having the slowest wings in the league face Phoenix seems like recipe for disaster.

Plus the inherent problem with continuing to jerk around Gordon (how's his shot, historically?), but we went over that already. For his part, Gordon's resigned to 'whatever's best for the team' mode. But the best for the team is for Ben Gordon to be playing well.

Skiles needs to stop these 'win-now' shenanigans. You don't need to pander to us by 'trying stuff'. Just let them play their way out of it, or the season's screwed regardless.

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Skiles doesn't know the word panic....

because after all he's not a panic guy.

lalalalalalalalalala we once had a basketball team!A basketball team.

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 13, 2007 11:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

and another thing....

whats with all the secrets in this town? Rex or Bryan? Who will start for the Bulls? Whats the big idea here?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 12:04 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm just glad

my username is relevant again.

by rexisourqb on Nov 14, 2007 7:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

wow I had no idea what that ment but after

read what I wrote and what you wrote 3 times I figured it out. I think I was reading it as rexi sour and the qb threw me off.

RexisOurQB...... ok! I just hope he gets the snap from Krutez.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 11:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

personally

I think Thomas should be the one to go from the starting lineup. Sure, he's played decently, but he's the guy who hasn't established himself. I'd prefer to see Joe Smith at least get a chance before we go to Nocioni for rebounding purposes but I don't disagree that something new should be tried at this point. It's not like we've played well but are finding ways to lose, we've looked terrible in all but one game.

And its not like he cant change things back later, there'll be injuries or something at some point anyway. We can't expect to have the same starting five all year

by JSlakov on Nov 14, 2007 1:15 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

eggsqueeze me

"before we go to Nocioni for rebounding purposes"

You mean the guy with a career 8.6 TRB/40?

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 14, 2007 7:26 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

its called

syntax

by JSlakov on Nov 15, 2007 12:10 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

huh?

Like the sentence is out of order? I was just pointing out a Nocioni fault, keep your grammar lingo to yourself.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 15, 2007 7:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Rebounding

I hope you meant Smith for rebounding purposes and not Noc ... although either way Thomas should stay in the game and can rebound just fine

Smith looks like good addition but is better in shorter times on court and adds scoring off bench, Thomas needs to start and get 82 game season as key player to keep improving

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 14, 2007 8:27 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

bench Gordon

start the most one dimensional player on the team. wonderful.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 14, 2007 7:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

one dimensional?

What's Gordon's second dimension?

by bpa on Nov 14, 2007 8:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

more importantly

does Nocioni even have a dimension?

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 14, 2007 9:31 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

How about Nocioni's

defense? I know he gets criticized alot for...what, exactly? Freelancing? Leaving his man? Going to the wrong man? General obliviousness? What is the deal with Noce's defense, and is it truly any better than Gordon's?

by alec on Nov 14, 2007 8:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Noc's 'D'

is horrible. You know that guy drifting toward the top of the key that gets that open look. If Noc is on the floor, that was the guy he was supposed to be guarding, but he wandered too far away. Look for a lot of layups when the Bulls are on D. The Suns are gonna backdoor Noc, Lu, and Ty all game. At least Ty has the ability to recover and block a shot.

by kingj41 on Nov 14, 2007 8:22 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

His tendencies

Nocioni likes playing help defense more than he likes to play man defense. He's often the player that is last in the line of Bulls defenders running at the shooters as the offense passes it around the wing.

Nocioni has flashes of solid defense. He like to draw charges, but he can block shots. He ends up in a lot of posters, but that's because he shows little fear in trying to deny easy tomahawk dunk attempts from people like Vince Carter and Tmac. I think he's an above average defender that ends up with the blame for the poor defensive performances of Chicago's guards.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 9:14 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think perhaps

Noc plays help defense more because he was groomed in the international league zones....his tendency is to always play zone and collapse inside, and it's something that he's actually gotten worse at each year....

I would say Nocioni's defense is bad only because of these tendencies...when he's on his man and focused, he's a solid defender, and when given additional minutes, he'll get the nice block, hustled tap, and floppy-flop charge call on the opponent.

I wouldn't say Noc is the worst defender in the league, but unless he can keep on his man-to-man game, he'll hardly be considered a good defender. I'd say he's got skills to be an above average defender, but plays as an average defender.

by majoyenrac on Nov 14, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Good point

Good point about the zones he played in in Europe and in his role with the Argentinian national team.

I think in the man defense the Bulls run Nocioni should be able to excel. He's not a shut down defender, nor is he tasked with shutting any opponent down by himself. That role falls to other Bulls. So he should be prime to play help defense, but he can't leave excellent shooters like Bargnani and Kapono with wide open threes.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Swapping Noc for Tyrus

is just as bad an idea as swapping BG for Duhon. I doubt that's what's planned. Rebounding is just as important as shooting % and Noc is a worse matchup at PF.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 14, 2007 8:45 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Against Phoenix?

Nocioni can guard Marion. Marion won't guard Nocioni. He'll guard Deng.

I don't know what the lineup will be. I suspect you might see Ben Wallace coming off the bench against Phoenix. Amare is their center, but he's shy in the paint and drawing Ben Wallace out to the perimeter minimizes his defensive impact in the paint.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 9:17 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wouldn't mind seeing Wallace

coming off the bench. If a player is not dominant, I think it's better to play match-ups with him. If he IS dominant, it's better to force the other team to play match-up. And face it, Wallace, at least lately, has not been dominant.

by alec on Nov 14, 2007 9:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great Marion a bunch of

lob dunks, while Noc is busy trying to draw charges on Nash.

by Scotter on Nov 14, 2007 9:29 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

breakdowns

Nocioni should come over to stop Steve Nash from getting into the paint. Nash's efficiency balloons when he gets into the paint.

Nocioni will get a lot of the blame, but he's going to be rotating properly. The real problem is the defense from our guards on the ball handler getting perimeter screens. That defense has been god awful this season. It's on Hinrich, Duhon, and Gordon to protect the passing lanes and keep Nash out of the paint.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 10:20 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think it's good.

Tyrus has been real good against other teams first units, and pitting him against other teams' second units will really throw them off. As in, the other teams coach might have to put in some starter who's resting prematurely to defend against him. If he does well in the role, I could see a sixth man award for TT.

by brianmita on Nov 15, 2007 3:17 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Isn't Nocioni being unfazed part of the problem?

"And Nocioni, should we choose to put him out there, is one guy that is a relatively unfazed player. He just takes his shots when they come. So he could be a guy that could help us out."

Putting up contested 3s three seconds into the shot clock isn't a great idea. Nocioni's shots should come less often. His usage rate is 2 possessions higher than even last season. I was a Noc defender over the summer, but Nocioni is doing his best to prove me wrong.

by Scotter on Nov 14, 2007 9:20 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Part of the problem,

as practically everyone here has pointed out, is that it's so early yet. Also, I think everything has been so screwed up--injuries, rotations, substitutions--that it's hard to get a solid handle on any individual performance. Everyone is trying to feel their way through the uncertainty. It almost seems like each player is trying to turn the whole thing around by himself.

by alec on Nov 14, 2007 9:30 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ok ok

one shot in a game the bulls ultimately won. I think if he had seen the defender, he wouldn't have attempted the shot. It would also be fair to say he is currently doing the best job of pump-faking and getting into the lane and actually making shots when he drives.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Nov 14, 2007 9:33 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Not one shot more

like at least a dozen. Jumpers in transition with no offensive rebounding. Contested 3s with plenty of time on the clock. I'd be perfectly happy to see Noc drive or even post-up. He's better at scoring from the post than Deng at this point. Noc just can't pass out the post as well as Deng.

by Scotter on Nov 14, 2007 9:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Another issue could be....

That Nocioni's jacking up shots etc to hopefully give his team a spark. I bet Nocioni would be much more effective if everyone else was playing at least ok. THe fact is everyone's been pretty shitty besides Joe Smith, whom Noc hasn't played with much. Tyrus is also in the exception just because he's had 2-3 magnificient games and 2-3 poor games.....

THe rest haven't been playing with anything.

Nocioni's a big (ahem, sorry Matt and you blogabullers) energy/grit player, who tends to make big plays to keep guys motivated.....

In his hot and cold minutes so far, he's come in typically when we've been completely flat and just plain awful and because of that he seems to be trying to motivate the team with some big shots (And thus is forcing his game a bit much).

Noc will never be our top dog star, but he's hardly the issue either, and he'll be playing well when everyone else jumps up their game. He feeds off of others well...kind of like a streaky scorer can get hot with an early layup/easy bucket, Nocioni feeds off of others' solid play...if the others don't play well, I think it forces Noc to try to do too much to give them all a boost.

I like Noc in the starting lineup (And I like the fact that we resigned him as a bonus in case we trade Deng).

by majoyenrac on Nov 14, 2007 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Phoenix game

I don't have high expectations from any lineup changes for the Phoenix game. You need an uptempo option and points in the paint to beat the Suns in Phoenix. Bulls did that last year, but the Suns were absent Steve Nash.

Who guards Nash? Kirk I assume. Whomever is guarding Nash will need to play the screen defense to perfection. Nash is going to dribble around screens all day to set up three point shots. With Wallace or Thomas on the floor the Suns will have to respect the shot blocking presence shifting their offense to perimeter shooting over high percentage shot opps.

Attack the basket to beat the Suns. They don't like to foul. When they do it completely alters their tempo and they cannot get their offense going. Making the Suns inbound the basketball significantly increases your chances of defeating them on the road.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 9:22 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Phoenix Game

This is my starting lineup
C:T2
PF: Noc
SF: Deng
SG: BG
PG: Capt'n Kirk

In my eyes T2 is a younger Amare. They have similar games and I would love to see that matchup. In order to win the Bulls need to score a lot of points. Ben Wallace isn't %100 and really insn't needed for this game. I would bring Smith in for Noc and Du for Kirk. Rotate Noah in with T2...There's your 8 man rotation, I would like to see this lineup on the floor. If they lose they know they had the best players on the floor...

by tyrus4prez on Nov 14, 2007 9:34 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I think Amare is a legitimate

center against almost any team in the league. I tend to want to slide Tyrus over more toward SF.

by alec on Nov 14, 2007 9:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Amare Stoudemire and Tyrus Thomas

have very little in common besides jumping high. Very different body type and skill set. Tyrus's biggest impact is on defense with his lateral quickness and long arms. Defense is something Amare tries to avoid playing, and he's not particularly suited for with short arms and limited lateral quickness.

by Scotter on Nov 14, 2007 9:53 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

T2 vs. Amare

I was referring to the offensive end. I see a younger Amare in the way he attacks the basket. He is working on his mid-range and once he develops that shot he will become similar to Amare. I think right now T2 can do a better job slowing down Amare that an injured Big Ben. I just think it's a better matchup

by tyrus4prez on Nov 14, 2007 10:02 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

T2

Tyrus should be able to abuse Amare on offense. Even with a poor low post game, most NBA big men can take Amare to the rim. He's a poor man defender. He's giving up dunks rather than challenging them.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 10:23 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I wonder if Big Ben'll be healthy again

after this long rest.

It was interesting hearing Skiles kind of call him out saying if he could just see "flashes" where Ben plays like the all star he used to be. (Sorry I didn't link because I found this on the blogabull site in someone else's post).

Last year, Skiles said nothing at all negative about "the Body" even when he played poorly.

This was a subtle jab, but a jab nonetheless....I wonder what kind of locker room struggles the team is having.

by majoyenrac on Nov 14, 2007 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh yeah

And I totally agree with Skiles' jab.....I think it should have been much more direct.....but I still found it interesting

by majoyenrac on Nov 14, 2007 12:37 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Great now ESPN is comparing the 96 Bulls

to the 2007 C's http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/features/best

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 11:17 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

You had to know that was coming.

They talked about it on PTI the other day and both Korny and Wilbon agreed that the Celtics wouldn't get 72 wins and might not even break 60.

by upther on Nov 14, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

The Celtics aren't nearly as good as

that Bulls' team.

Then again, perhaps the League isn't as formidable as it was in 1995-96.

I still doubt the Celtics will eclipse the Bulls' 72 win record. That being said, they do look like the class of the East thus far.

SUCK IT SABAN!

by 1958ChiTown on Nov 14, 2007 3:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Just another reason...

to ignore the idiots in Bristol. I swear, the only good to come from that "network" anymore is PTI, Dan LeBatard, Rob Neyer, and John Hollinger. Oh, and now the epitome of sportswriting, Rick Reilly, is bringing his Bart's People skills over there. ESPN makes me puke, and not just in my mouth.

by snley on Nov 14, 2007 9:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just thought about this...

do you think Maurbarry is trying to hitch a ride with the C's? If he gets cut it only makes sense that he would be a Celtic in no time.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 11:57 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's possible

But I think Ainge would be stupid to sign him. They could use some PG help because I don't think Rondo is the answer, but they don't need to be messing with their chemistry by adding a me first player who seems to be teetering on the edge of a breakdown.

by upther on Nov 14, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

ugh Marbury

Marbury is a cancer. You do everything you can to keep this man off your roster. He won't help you win any games.

by NBA Observer on Nov 14, 2007 1:02 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Bill Simmons...

...chimes in with this idea:

why not start Ben Wallace, Joe Smith, Andres Nocioni, Deng and Kirk Hinrich, then bring the energy/pace-changing guys (Gordon, Thomas, Thabo Sefolosha and Jo Noah) off the bench? Or would that make too much sense?

Agree or disagree, but I love reading him. Except he gets on Pax for not trying to get KG. Mariotti moaned about this, as well as someone else from ESPN, plus a columnist from MSNBC...all claimed that Pax was too gunshy to try for Garnett. But didn't Sam Smith say Pax made an offer two years ago for Luol & the Tyrus pick and it was McHale who rejected it? So why does Pax get blamed for that?

by T Maple on Nov 14, 2007 2:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

'cause their morons.

and it's not as fun of a read to say Pax was a victim of unfortunate timing.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2007 2:52 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

now that I read it

he says Paxson didn't do a good enough job holding on to big contracts long enough to where Garnett would be available. That's a slightly better point. Although it's a tough sell for an owner to trade for longer, worse deals just in case of a trade down the line.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2007 2:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So Ainge

lucked out in that he had a lot of cruddy contracts still around. Incompetance leading to a good thing.

Also, being McHale's bud was a big selling point.

by KT on Nov 14, 2007 5:38 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I have a feeling

I have a feeling that (even if we traded away Wallace, TT, Noc, and Ben gordon) if we had Garnett, we would have a better record than 1-5.

i know that means nothing.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 14, 2007 6:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Fortunately, the only game televised here we won..

but hasn't the problem been poor guard play and everyone out for themselves? This sounds like Gordon and Deng want stats for more money rather than wins and everyone else knows it.

Does that make any sense?

by hhi on Nov 14, 2007 4:44 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So far

I think smoe of it has to do with the contract situation and the Kobe talk. Also, I think with Deng: all he hears is how good he is and isn't playing his normal game. Alot of his shots seem forced and unDeng like.
As with Gordon, I think some of it is rust and some of it is being BG. I can live with some of his turnovers but the missed shots are unlike BG. He has one of the prettiest shots in the game and normally is a can't miss wide open

by tyrus4prez on Nov 14, 2007 4:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Also

Playing for England might have gotten him used to non-NBA defense. Other teams are covering him more than he is used to now and who knows what he got used to all summer in that style of play.

by cranscape on Nov 14, 2007 4:59 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Well.

They are not having particularly stellar individual games so I don't know how that holds up. I've noticed that they don't seem to be starting their offense until 15 seconds are left on the clock. To me that seems like a major problem considering what type of offensive team the Bulls have been in the past. It is hard to share the ball and get good rhythm when you feel the clock pressuring you to throw up a brick before the offense has run through its moves.

by cranscape on Nov 14, 2007 4:58 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

post is updated

Nocioni in for Thomas?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 14, 2007 5:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Makes perfect sense

Let's bench one of the only players on the team who hasn't been completely terrible.

by Big D on Nov 14, 2007 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Tyrus lovers

Get real. Thomas has amazing games followed by awful ones. Taking out Gordon would be a cardinal sin but Thomas isnt going to create offense and this team isnt scoring. It might be a questionable move, but it isnt that horrible idea. And I don't think thomas is that great of a defender man to man. He gets pushed around down low. Rasheed is a great player and was playing amazing, but Tyrus did the typical I just got out of college rely on my athleticism defense and let him get position everytime, try to recover just to realizer that rasheed has really long arms and can shoot over him.
I could see him doing better against Phoenix if he can focus and doesnt get tired.

by Sambossanova on Nov 14, 2007 5:39 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

UnBULLeiveable

Damn Skiles, 1 Win where T2 plays unbelievable and now back to the bench. Hinrich and Wallace are off to horendous starts yet they are invincilble to getting benched... I like Hinrich but I think he should of been benched

by tyrus4prez on Nov 14, 2007 6:49 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So far as I can tell, Tyrus is one of the

few Bulls players who DOES create his own offense by taking the ball to the hole and getting fouled.

SUCK IT SABAN!

by 1958ChiTown on Nov 14, 2007 6:57 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

TT should stay in the line up.

If they keep shooting this badly they will need someone like TT who can grab rebounds and put it right back in the basket. Maybe he might be more effective from the bench, but only if they are making a high percentage of shots and don't need a clean up crew. Otherwise I'd want TT out there from moment one.

by cranscape on Nov 14, 2007 8:13 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

create his own offense?

I agree that he is one of the only players if not the only who is more than willing to attack the basket and actively looks to do so. Problem is playing him with ben wallace. No one will guard wallace's outside shot so that doesnt leave much room for tyrus to finish near the basket and he isnt that strong at finish to begin with, hence he often falls on the ground.

by Sambossanova on Nov 15, 2007 3:36 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Problem Solved!

TT and Smith should start. TT can clean up at the rim and Smith can hit outside shots opening up the offense. If Big Ben can get himself healed he can work his way back into TT's spot.

by cranscape on Nov 15, 2007 8:21 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yessir.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 2:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It does make sence

If you're team is struggling, put in the guy that has been your most productive.

by Option27 on Nov 15, 2007 10:13 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Having only seen part of the win it's hard to say

but reading between the lines regarding the team meeting about playing together and the Kobe and contract stuff sure sounds like it's every man for himself.

The league is way too tough for that and that's not the way they used to play.

by hhi on Nov 14, 2007 5:01 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Check this out.

http://www.82games.com/0708/0708CHI.HTM

by hhi on Nov 14, 2007 6:17 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

noc, duh, and smith

Wow, do I disagree with Matt.

Noc has been our strongest link, and we need him on the court from the start. Deng moving to the 2 spot replaces some of our lost height. (I'm curious about other positions though.)

The 'win now' is the real deal. Winning at Phoenix sets the tone of the road trip. (Can set the tone.) Los toros nessecita grande grande!

the bulls are in win-now mode. The bulls need to take off their binoculars and play as if the Phoenix game is the last game they'll ever play.

With that note, I'm putting 100$ on the suns to win it, giving the bulls 8 points. There is something wrong, and the Suns aren't playing around.

by chicago-homesick-blues on Nov 14, 2007 6:35 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

now look at

the overwhelming evidence from the past 3 years.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Nov 14, 2007 7:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I think that confirms what everyone has

been saying: If the backcourt doesn't play better, the Bulls can't win.

SUCK IT SABAN!

by 1958ChiTown on Nov 14, 2007 7:08 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

what I hear

I've read and heard a lot of criticism of Ben Wallace for the woes, but look at the Roland rating for BG and Hinrich. -10 and -16?

by NBA Observer on Nov 15, 2007 10:46 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

At least we're not Heat fans

The Heat are getting blown out at home by the 0-8 Sonics - with Dwyane Wade back in the lineup.

by Big D on Nov 14, 2007 7:42 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

That'll change

Once Riley suits up for them.

by upther on Nov 14, 2007 7:46 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

We

should trade Ben Gordon and Noah to atlanta for Josh Childress and Zaza pachulia.(random thought)

by eross226 on Nov 14, 2007 10:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

right

Childress is probably shooting better than Gordon, but in the long run, Gordon is a better player.

ZaZa? lol

by NBA Observer on Nov 15, 2007 9:55 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

You guys I can't take another moment of this

season. If I have to hear one more Kobe rumor. I don't know that I can handle one more Celtic or Laker win complete with a Bulls loss.

Oddly I remember the start of last season and it seemed like the end of the world and then one day the Bulls just started to play better.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 11:12 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

It's only been six games.

That means 76 more games!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 14, 2007 11:54 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

So you figure

they can only lose around 26 more games. If you wana get to around 50 wins. They should be ok right?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 12:05 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I don't understand this at all

Is Skiles watching the same games as the rest of us? TT is the ONLY member of the starting line-up who has progressed. He's messed up at times (and Skiles buries him on the bench), but I think he's playing well overall. The other 4 guys are far below their career averages, so the only productive player gets sent to the bench?

It's not that I dislike Noce - he has his moments - but I'm more concerned about TT's development. What message does this send to him?

This almost seems like a case where Skiles is overthinking: "These guys aren't this bad, so the common denominator is Tyrus starting with them."

With the line-up change, I think this team really has a shot to win the Under-6'10" championship this year...

I am perplexed and disheartened. This 4-day break to analyze everything is not good. I can't wait for them to play so we have something to talk about that actually happens in a game.

Wrecked 'em? Damn near killed 'em!

by mdmnd9294 on Nov 15, 2007 9:23 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

confirmation

We still don't have confirmation that T2 is headed for the bench. It could be Ben Wallace. Tyrus, Kirk, BG, Noc, Deng, and Wallace all have been wearing black uniforms in practice this week indicating starter status.

by NBA Observer on Nov 15, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd say having 6 starters

is more likely than Wallace not starting.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

yeah I thought that was weird.

Maybe Wallace could play on Nocionis back. A legit 7 footer.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 11:08 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Nocioni at 4

I don't mind Nocioni starting in place to Thomas. I just want the Bulls to start winning again. The starting lineup will stabilize after they've figure out which works and which doesn't. If Nocioni can get the Bulls to a decent start, that would be great. These adolescent Bulls are still too young to trail early in games and maybe a jumpstart from Noce might work.

If not we could always gut the team for Kobe. I don't mind rebuilding as long as I see Kobe play every night.

by Kantut on Nov 15, 2007 10:38 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I'm not at the 'whatever works'

point yet. Plus there's no way to determine whether Nocioni starting 'works' or not. Hinrich/Deng/Gordon (whomever) could just be playing better, like they should.

Plus, if they win, then Nocioni stays in the lineup. Hell even if they lose (they were 1-6 after last season's lineup change!) the new lineup will stay. It just sucks all around.

Nearly any lineup change is a regression in my eyes. Although maybe the braintrust have decided 1-5 is enough to give up on improvement for this season. Which means I give up too.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

When Deng, Gordon, Hinrich, and Noc

are all missing wide open jumpers changing a lineup is going to make them make those shots. Lineup changes aren't a fix for the team's problems.

by Scotter on Nov 15, 2007 11:07 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I admit that I haven't been able to observe the

Bulls as closely as I normally do over the first part of the season due to the tyrannnical obligations imposed on me by The Firm (TM John Grisham).

That being said, at the few games I have attended (Detroit, Raptors), Nocioni has looked horrendous. It seems like his play has regressed appreciably since 05-06. Obviously, the current advanced statistics indicate that Noc is playing better than the rest of the team, I just didn't see any evidence of that during my trips to the UC.

So, my question is: Has Nocioni really been playing well enough to warrant a starting role?

SUCK IT SABAN!

by 1958ChiTown on Nov 15, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

no.

especially because to me he'd have to drastically outperform the starters to win the job in the first place, because 'historically' he's just not as good.

He's a fine off-the-bench-chucker. Only the Bulls could screw that up.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 12:27 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

While I like Nocioni

I think he's benefitted a bit in that =/- stat column by being on the court when the team's been on a run. I know he was there for the Jersey game when Gordon lit it up, and again on the court when Tyrus has lit it up too.

I would say that Noc has been one of our best players to date, but of course that's pretty easy to say as most of our guys have never played as poorly as they played those first few games....

Hopefully the time off, film and practices will get us back in track....I'm clinging to that hope too.

by majoyenrac on Nov 15, 2007 12:56 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's basketball it's not that hard.

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 11:09 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

Maybe Paxson feels

he can't afford to take Gordon out of the line-up because it would diminish his trade value.

by alec on Nov 15, 2007 11:41 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I have no idea how much influence Paxson has

on lineups. From all accounts he sometimes scratches his head at what Skiles does too, but doesn't step in or anything.

I don't doubt that both him and Skiles would feel the safter choice to bench is Tyrus. He's a malcontent 20-year-old, after all.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 11:42 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I hope not

Benching Tyrus seems like a big step back for Bulls. He was #2 pick in draft and they need his explosiveness to get to next level. Putting Noc in for him seems bad idea, plus it take the only outside shooter off the 2nd unit.

Bulls have a lot of high draft choices on this roster. They didn't trade for KG, Gasol, Kobe or another vet, so next to Wallace its time to live or die with the players drafted this year - Kirk, Ben, Loul, Thomas
with Duhon/Thabo/Noc/Smith/Noah playing roles off bench

If Bulls do well then its because their high draft choices have turned out to be good/great NBA player. If they don't achieve playoff sucess this year its probably because Bulls management (and many Bulls fans) have overvalued their young talent. Bottom line is Kirk, Ben, Loul are best Bulls have at their positions and have been in league for multiple years with playoff experience now but is this good enough? Thomas is younger more raw but definitely needs the playing time as has potential to be just as important to Bulls sucess

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 15, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'd feel better if they started Joe Smith actually

but you're right, any benching of Tyrus is a step back, big-picture.

Skiles would counter your well thought-out argument with 'spacing', I'm sure.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 12:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Smith starting

I like Smith and agree he needs mins but I see him getting those at PF and C and as vet he should be more comfortable coming off the bench. Plus I think you agree Thomas is the one with the upside to be real difference maker. Thomas adds an athlete that can attack the rim, Smith is great in his role of more jump shooting and some post up play.

might be sad but I also think for Thomas ego and confidence its good for him to start (before I get killed for this comment, come on we all want to start and feel the team needs us to win ... or is it just me, lol)

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 15, 2007 2:10 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I just want the game to start.

4 day breaks are too much for me. The 9:30 PM start time is also a killer for me because I start work early. I promised Bullshooter to be optimistic so let's see how the next week goes before I become the most annoying pessistic Bulls fan on the Blog. I badly need something good to happen tonight.

by chgobr on Nov 15, 2007 12:03 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

yeah this is way too long!

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 12:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Interesting game note

Thanks Wayne!

Ben Gordon is averaging 35.7 points, 5.3 rebounds, and is shooting 54.0% from the field over his last three games against the Suns.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 1:39 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

rebounds, lol

if little Ben is grabbing that many rebounds vs Suns (vs3.1/ last year) then that and some rest should get Wallace going tonight on the boards

seriously the Bulls have talent to play and keep up with Suns, can't wait to stay up late and hopefully see a great win

by NY Chicago Fan on Nov 15, 2007 2:15 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Oh I disagree

The last year Bulls can run with the Suns, and on paper we're more talented than we were last year....our main guys just have to play well.

Gordon actually is doing ok in terms of rebounding so far this year....he just isn't shooting that well, and worse off his spurt-turnover tendencies have happened in all 6 games so far this year and most of which have come at the worst time....

I was at the Suns/Bulls game last year at the UC and man did that suck when Barbosa hit the shot. We totally deserved to win that game.

If Deng, Hinrich and Gordon play to their capabilities and we get something from Wallace we should compete well and I wouldn't be shocked if we pulled out a win.. Trouble is we ain't played worth shit so far this season (besides the Pistons game and maybe 4-5 minutes in the other games).

by majoyenrac on Nov 15, 2007 2:48 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Where is the game thread?

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 3:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

game's not until 9:30

So...it'll be up by then.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

actually...

My normal secret cabal of game previews haven't responed yet. So if anyone out there wants to do today's game thread, email me.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

It's official

Noc is in for Tyrus.

What a bag of ass. See ya next year!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 3:21 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Matt come on their not going to win this game.

You know they will sub Tyrus in for Wallace 4 minutes into the game. It's all good. Dude maybe your right maybe it's time to start going to this site more often. http://nbadraft.net/

"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe."

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 15, 2007 3:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I like OJ Mayo

Hope the Bulls start to tank games. They might get a 25 ppg scorer next year. Beasely isn't bad too. Those two dudes have some nastiness in their game which the Bulls definitely lack. And a backbone too.

by Kantut on Nov 15, 2007 4:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

you hope they tank?

holy crap what a tool thing to say.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 15, 2007 5:24 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I said this in another thread

and the thread in question got deleted but I spent the afternoon drinking at work so here goes again.

I hate the idea of tanking and openly question the fanhood of anybody who advocates it. I will swear off the Bulls if they openly start to tank.

I don't know how, but Stern needs to do something to overhaul the draft. Something needs to be done to punish the tankers.

by upther on Nov 15, 2007 5:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I've rooted for the Bears to lose

during one of their bad seasons. I was punished with Cedric Benson.

You have to be a real pessimist to mention tanking with 70 games left to go though.

by rexisourqb on Nov 15, 2007 7:16 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good call

on the "spacing" comment...Apparently we need to play with 4 perimeter players and Big Ben. Everyone just chuck it towards and either hope it goes in or Big Ben can gather it for another chuck

by tyrus4prez on Nov 15, 2007 3:33 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs