Bulls/Nets postgame reactionary thoughts.
That game thread got out of control early, so I'll start in a new one with some post-game thoughts. Before I get started, this is just one game and I don't understand the need to extrapolate any of it into the season or franchise direction as a whole. Nothing you saw tonight should change one's thoughts on the team's direction one way or the other.
- Last thing first: Skiles sat on his hands for the last 5 minutes and overtime. It was Nocioni at the PF for too long of a stretch, and that just kills the team rebounding. If you want to get 'tough' rebounds, don't play 'tougher', put in better rebounders. Sure, after struggling all game, Noc hit some big shots at the end and was the only one converting in OT, but I don't want him taking shots in overtime anyway.
- To pick on the 5-year man some more, he was part of that clusterfuck that was the final play of regulation. He waited too long to set the screen, and then couldn't wait to run towards the basket, making his contribution to the play was bringing a second defender towards Ben Gordon. And that ended as well as expected.
- Tyrus had a tough go in his opening stint, getting two quick fouls. He also missed a few easy conversions that he'll usually make. But he was still on the floor during the Bulls best stretch, and didn't seem to make too many mistakes overall. I was disappointed we didn't see him more, or Joe Smith for that matter. Skiles seemed to have always have Smith in without pairing him with Wallace or Tyrus, and that's yet another bad rebounding combination, but offensively Joe looked quite good.
- Ben Gordon had a phenomenal third quarter shooting the ball, and while I'd normally complain that he didn't get to the line quite enough, I acknowledge the possibility that he was sick of getting jobbed by the officials on a lot of contact plays. Put his drives next to Vince Carter's, and there was a clear discrepancy in how they were called.
- The Luol-post option went alright, but there wasn't enough of it. Especially in overtime when it was the Noc show. There was also a play when Luol was able to dribble the length of the court with a man tailing him and finish, a situation that in years past would've likely wound up a turnover.
- I thought Skiles had pretty good rotations overall until the aforementioned final lineup. Joe Smith was the first frontcourt player off the bench, and Thabo the first backcourt player. Of course when Thabo got two turnovers in a row late in the first half you could hear the doghouse door open. Duhon actually had a decent game, and it was needed considering the foul trouble Hinrich was in all night. But we even got a glimpse of the tiny-ball lineup, which I thought had been destroyed in Mt. Doom. "Duhon + Richard Jefferson = success" is written on the dry-erase board of the locker room.
- The worst part about having no 'go to scorer' is that they should at least be giving the ball to Deng and Gordon to give them any opportunity to become that. Instead we received a heavy dose of Nocioni and Ben Wallace.
- Ok, so would Kobe Bryant have helped the free-throw discrepancy, and given a better option on the last possession? Sure. But it's not just Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant, so don't react like it's that simple. [UPDATE: Oh man, how predictable.]
- Antoine Wright? What the hell?
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Not that much has changed.
I just don't think this is a Finals team. I really wish I knew what the hell is going on. I'm in a bit of limbo as a Bulls fan. I would like to see the Bulls make the trade.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 31, 2007 10:11 PM CDT 0 recs
Wright is the new Moore
-Mighty fight, but loss at the hands of angry Kidd and hateful Carter and officials who love Da Stars
-contract situations, Kobe situations...every shot Deng and Gordon shoot has the potential to be overshot
-Joe Smith is the only new player. Oh.
ugg...the Celtics seem alot harder to overcome after tonight...
by hongydraw on Oct 31, 2007 10:24 PM CDT 0 recs
tonight should change nothing
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 31, 2007 11:01 PM CDT
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Well Put
by piccolomair on
Nov 1, 2007 12:06 AM CDT
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What about kirk?
by haze on Oct 31, 2007 10:25 PM CDT 0 recs
They didn't look hurt
by bullshooter on
Oct 31, 2007 10:32 PM CDT
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Kirks fouls
by piccolomair on
Nov 1, 2007 12:08 AM CDT
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In Defense...
That said, yes, let's hope Skiles doesn't get too fond of it again.
by BenGo07 on Oct 31, 2007 10:26 PM CDT 0 recs
True, but it's rarely a good idea to
by Scotter on
Oct 31, 2007 10:28 PM CDT
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if the bulls arent a finals team...
Yeah Gordon for Kobe = No brainer. But if you have to give up a few pieces to get Kobe, then it becomes complicated. Sort of like Boston giving up so many players for KG. Except Chicago's players are actually good lol.
by duaneo88 on Oct 31, 2007 10:27 PM CDT 0 recs
the third quarter and the last play
by bullshooter on Oct 31, 2007 10:29 PM CDT 0 recs
I blame the last play
by Knowledge32 on
Nov 1, 2007 7:46 AM CDT
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last play sucked
I think Bulls waited to long to start play and from what I remember seeing last year, BenG holding ball until last sec only results in a contested long range shot
when tied, shouldn't the bulls try and get something going towards basket or pass to open shooter, why when they run such a good offense do they make obvious dumb play at end
by NY Chicago Fan on
Nov 1, 2007 8:31 AM CDT
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all of the articles
So my assumption is that it was drawn up correctly, they just didn't execute it.
by ScottieCartwright on
Nov 1, 2007 8:55 AM CDT
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KC sez
Maybe he screamed 'YOU JUST EARNED PT FOR THE ENTIRE OVERTIME!'
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 9:02 AM CDT
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not blaming Ben
Also just because BenG is capable of making that somtimes doesn't mean its a good play, so even if it goes in, I still don't like idea
I'll hope Skills did design something else and the Bulls execute better.
by NY Chicago Fan on
Nov 1, 2007 10:06 AM CDT
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small brush fire maybe?
MAYBE Kirk, but that's it. Those two are your best creators on the team. Lu is a finisher.
Again, I think the problem with last night's play strictly came down to bad execution on the team (it took all of my might not to single Noce out just then)
by ScottieCartwright on
Nov 1, 2007 10:38 AM CDT
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BenG
Shouldn't be shooting a 3 if the game is tied unless its open off a pass
I agree Lu is finisher, and didn't rewatch play but don't even remember where he was and I'm sure NJ was defending him so he might have been taken out of play
by NY Chicago Fan on
Nov 1, 2007 11:01 AM CDT
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so was
by ScottieCartwright on
Nov 1, 2007 11:10 AM CDT
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it doesn't matter
by bullshooter on
Nov 1, 2007 12:51 PM CDT
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'magic'
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 9:37 AM CDT
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A Deserving loss.
Matt, the Nets are better than #9 in the east. They'd be even better IF Carter never shot another jumpshot all year.
- Yes, Deng was consistent...but quiet!
- Gordon brought us back in the game in the 3rd, but while Wright was freezing Gordon with sick defense for the rest of the game, Wright HIT OPEN SHOTS. Shots he shouldn't even have. Why was he so open? I'd like to review that tape. hmm.
- (Gordon, 6 TOs, huh?) huh?
- Noc and Hinrich = stupid, stupid fouls.
- TT doesn't look any older. Please, let me be wrong.
- Duhon kept this team together while everyone else was mis-stepping. duhon was consistent, with only 1 poorly chosen shot.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 31, 2007 10:32 PM CDT 0 recs
About Kirk's fouls
I do agree that Noc had a foul night.
by AngryAsianAce on
Oct 31, 2007 10:39 PM CDT
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Blah
by piccolomair on
Nov 1, 2007 12:13 AM CDT
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I agree
Joe Smith looks like a gigantic upgrade over PJ and I think given Tyrus' struggles and Smith's smarts, Joe should be our starting PF (I expect the switch to occur soon.
by majoyenrac on
Nov 1, 2007 7:53 AM CDT
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Joe
Thomas has to make those easy baskets, even with that said I don't think we should judge him too much on one game, but still doesn't look comfortable out there, although I worry that the only way he will improve is if he keeps playing (downside is that he may never really be that good on offense)
Thabo - not sure what happenned there as he lost his mind on those 2 passes which lead to NJ baskets, I still think Bulls need him
by NY Chicago Fan on
Nov 1, 2007 8:27 AM CDT
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Anybody sign an extension?
by bullshooter on Oct 31, 2007 10:34 PM CDT 0 recs
I read on the paper today
Paxson you got fuckin 13...12 minutes to sign Deng to an extension!!!!!!!!!!!
by AngryAsianAce on
Oct 31, 2007 10:47 PM CDT
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Jefferson was a beast &
&
The refs were mental.
by AngryAsianAce on Oct 31, 2007 10:34 PM CDT 0 recs
I feel like the Bulls were more confident against
by philosoball on Oct 31, 2007 10:35 PM CDT 0 recs
Kind of funny that the Pacers,
From the little I saw flipping between games (and recaps seem to confirm it), Cleveland looked pretty bad tonight.
by wjb1492 on Oct 31, 2007 10:36 PM CDT 0 recs
Oh Well, Time to feast on Sixers on Friday!
Andre Igloodalla (w/e) and his team can't match our lineup.
by AngryAsianAce on Oct 31, 2007 10:44 PM CDT 0 recs
Just did...
by BenGo07 on Oct 31, 2007 10:45 PM CDT 0 recs
I'm glad the numbers bear out
by Scotter on
Oct 31, 2007 10:47 PM CDT
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Noce was really bad defensively tonight
by Big D on
Oct 31, 2007 10:51 PM CDT
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oh my word!
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 31, 2007 10:57 PM CDT
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Just realized
by BenGo07 on
Oct 31, 2007 11:05 PM CDT
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found out NBA.com boxscores have +/-
http://www.nba.com/games/20071031/CHINJN/boxscore.html
They have Noc at -12. Second worst, Thabo with -16.
Wallace and Thomas the only ones with + ratings. Somewhere Dave Berri smiles.
And beyond the rebounding, Noc was also roaming on D, especially on that Jefferson 3-pointer...per usual.
I do have to say it's Skiles I should be mad at, not the Noc.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 31, 2007 10:56 PM CDT
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Huh..
by BenGo07 on
Oct 31, 2007 11:09 PM CDT
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Well
Fact is that besides a few lapses on defense (and who could blame Nocioni--I'd typically give Jefferson some 3pt tries since shooting has never been his strong point--but the shots just went down), Noc looked decent in the clutch for us where Tyrus looked still like a rookie (I was disappointed in his game after being pumped by his growth all offseason--but I know it's just one game.
I'm tired of the Noc hating here. It's easy to see why Noc wouldn't have as good of a +/- spread when he's playing the bulk of his minutes with the second unit--and Noc did look rusty at the start of the game.
by majoyenrac on
Nov 1, 2007 8:00 AM CDT
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I want Deng and Gordon 'in the clutch'.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 8:07 AM CDT
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No you don't
by bullshooter on
Nov 1, 2007 9:35 AM CDT
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I think getting a chucker out of the lineup
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 9:37 AM CDT
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running that last play
by bullshooter on
Nov 1, 2007 9:49 AM CDT
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maybe
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 9:56 AM CDT
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if play
with tied game, I think you need to attack, defense doesn't want to foul (and there was ton of whistles that game, although I know Bulls have history of not getting best calls) and maybe more movement could have led to better put back attempt opportunity
by NY Chicago Fan on
Nov 1, 2007 10:13 AM CDT
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I hate all this hate on the word clutch here too
Fact is there are several players who play well but do little when the game is on the line.....
Others thrive (Wade, James, Bryant, and I'd say Mr. 4th Qtr can too in Gordon).
Nocioni has thrived for us in the past. Deng thrived for us only against the Heat (w/Walker) and the thing is that Deng has far more talent than Noc, and now has the hype and the experience, he needs to become that guy.
by majoyenrac on
Nov 1, 2007 11:42 AM CDT
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that's not fair
by hscs on
Nov 1, 2007 11:54 AM CDT
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I watched the Bucks
Now that was a sad, sad, second half.
by KT on Oct 31, 2007 10:46 PM CDT 0 recs
During the game, in pre-game interviews, and
by 1958ChiTown on Oct 31, 2007 11:07 PM CDT 0 recs
uh, isn't Skiles always like that?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 31, 2007 11:16 PM CDT
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Maybe.
by 1958ChiTown on
Nov 1, 2007 11:09 AM CDT
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I thought Deng...
Nocioni on the other hand was the same old Noc. I don't hate the guy, but wish Skiles would use him less.
I see Skiles like the old Polaks in my family. They are completely stubborn, and will not change there minds for anything, no matter how compelling the agruement. It takes a sledge hammer over the head to make them just think about changing course.
by ScottSkilles Hair on Oct 31, 2007 11:08 PM CDT 0 recs
Please Calm Down
Just let me know your honest after click this link
http://mundoalbiceleste.blogspot.com/2007/10/thirty-times-greatest.html
by sivanjohn on Oct 31, 2007 11:23 PM CDT 0 recs
I figured out why Skiles did what he did...
The team was on fire while Thomas was in there. Thomas' typical break time came. Nocioni came in. The team went cold. Seeing this, Skiles wanted more offense so he left Nocioni in.
Skiles failed to see that in this case, it was not purely coincidental. From watching the game, what your typical box-score doesn't show:
--Thomas had to be accounted for on defensive and offensive glass so he was boxed out. Wallace and Thomas were left to one-on-one rebounding. Deng, too.
--Thomas and Wallace each had multiple tip-outs to open guards whose defender's had collapsed on a missed shot.
--After a missed shot, Nocioni was nowhere near the basket. He was often out around the 3 pt line. This meant that Wallace was typically be muscled by two guys around the basket, sometimes as three. Deng was taking a few of those late shots, too, so he wasn't often close to the basket.
--Nocioni was "guarding" Jefferson. This wasn't a huge deal, but it mattered. He did fine a few times (at least once, anyway), but was often out of position. Again, it meant only one rebounder on the defensive end. Thomas may have guarded Jefferson as well, but he could have given more slack, thus help-defending the paint and being in better position to rebound while still having the ability to recover.
It feels funny saying this, but "these are things that don't show up in a box score". But I'm confident the +/- accurately reflects it.
While unconventional, I believe the Wallace and Thomas pair is perfect for this team. The answer to a jump shooting team isn't a slow, post-scoring fool. It's getting rebounders who want to rebound and can rebound. A post-scorer is, almost by definition, going to already be boxed out, even on a kick out. Thomas and Wallace, however, will be looking towards the ball and the hoop, constantly looking for ways to get to the latter.
The fast/2ndary break stuff that sbulls mentioned (and I tried to elaborate on) made sense, but after only one game, Wallace and Thomas together makes even more sense. Allowing Hinrich/Duhon, Gordon and Deng to run around jacking up shots with two guys waiting down low to get it back out to them keeps around just as much "HOT" while reducing the "cold".
Kobe (because of what would have to be given up) is not the answer; more Tyrus Thomas and Ben Wallace together is. In a month or two, I'll gladly accept that I'm wrong if TT is getting 30 mins and they still suck, but I'm not seeing that happening. I think, this year, Thomas could be comparable to Wallace in production if given the minutes (not match, but come close). That's not normal. But neither is trying to win a championship without one or two exceptional players.
I'll finally admit, if Skiles gets out of his own way, this team can do that as currently built.
by tyger1147 on Oct 31, 2007 11:37 PM CDT 0 recs
Jesus, sorry I wrote that much.
by tyger1147 on
Oct 31, 2007 11:39 PM CDT
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I do also realize that this is a Nets team
by tyger1147 on
Oct 31, 2007 11:44 PM CDT
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Nocioni hatred
Nocioni not only hit the big shot to tie the game, but he was hitting in overtime unlike anyone else. You say you want Thomas in there, fine, but how about you keep Nocioni in and let Deng sit when he was taking the kind of ill advised jumpers you'd hate from Nocioni, including one from the corner drifting out of bounds that led to a fast break basket on the other end. If Deng is just gonna take jumpers and he's not gonna make them, I have no problem having Nocioni in there, who actually played good D in OT except for the Jefferson play when he left him open, but that was a pick your poison situation anyway.
I see too much on this board about how this team is only going to be great if they have Thomas and Deng in there but if Thomas and Deng can't actually do the things you want them to do, its not that simple. Thomas did not have a great game, anyone who watched it would know that and we needed Nocioni's offense down the stretch and in OT and Thomas simply could not have provided that.
by JSlakov on Nov 1, 2007 12:09 AM CDT 0 recs
Noc does a lot of good at times
by marionette on
Nov 1, 2007 1:45 AM CDT
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Just looked at the play-by-play
So I take it back, they could've been in it at the end of OT.
by marionette on
Nov 1, 2007 2:52 AM CDT
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It's not a double team
by Knowledge32 on
Nov 1, 2007 7:55 AM CDT
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and besides....
Antoinne Wright was the real reason the Nets won (well and of course JKidd) Wright was unbelievably clutch for them hitting big baskets at the end and in OT and in the 3rd quarter he and Natchbar helped counter some of the BG explosion--I just wish when the Nets got cold in the end of the 3rd, we weren't cold with them...
by majoyenrac on
Nov 1, 2007 8:03 AM CDT
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Thanks for the info
Oh well, let's get after the Sixers.
by marionette on
Nov 1, 2007 1:49 PM CDT
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I hate that
by bigballa10 on
Nov 1, 2007 12:44 PM CDT
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i agree with you wholeheartedly
Yesterday was a slight excuse because RJ isn't very effective from the outside, but even that said after Jefferson started hitting some of his outside shots, Nocioni (and the Bulls coaching staff) should have reminded Noc to stay on him tonight.
by majoyenrac on
Nov 1, 2007 2:30 PM CDT
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Did anyone watch ESPN tonight??
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Nov 1, 2007 12:21 AM CDT 0 recs
Tyrus
by Sambossanova on Nov 1, 2007 12:27 AM CDT 0 recs
I don't think he played that well
Only 1 TO in 22 minutes. So...if he keeps that up he's improved. I don't know why anyone would've expected him to be a drastically different player. His 'young mistakes' (or whatever everyone says he does) is that he blew a couple of layups that he normally makes. Took one jumpshot from what I remember.
I can't comment on your defensive evaluations, I didn't notice any overpursuing or leaving his feet too often, but I wasn't looking for it either.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Nov 1, 2007 9:09 AM CDT
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coming back a few hours later
by hongydraw on Nov 1, 2007 1:32 AM CDT 0 recs


