Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant
I've been trying to avoid the Kobe trade issue because it's mostly indicative of everything wrong with the NBA. It's the ESPN hype machine, SLAM magazine, Scoop Jackson, and Steven A.Smith combined with fans just as out of touch with reality. Unfortunately I do end up reading some it and the following seems unavoidable. Three stock phrases among many that are parroted by nearly everyone, including by people who should know better.
Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant
#1 "Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the league"
I realize all kinds of NBA players, media, and even a few coaches and GMs might agree with this statement, which gives fans free license to repeat this crap. But it's both incorrect and reflective of the same mentality that leads people to complain about missing out on the J.R. Smith experience in Chicago. Call Bryant the most talented player in the league. The best shot creator in the league. Call him the best perimeter defender in the league when he decides to play any. These statements can be defended. But if the Bulls trade for Bryant, I assume the goal is to win more games since the United Center already sells out. So shouldn't the best player in the NBA be responsible for winning the most games for his team?
And when it comes to winning games for his team, it should be even more clear that Kobe isn't the best or the most dominant player in the NBA. Boring old Tim Duncan is. Yes, Duncan and his 4 championships where he actually was the best player on his team. Yes, Duncan who has won 2 NBA MVPs and 3 Finals MVPs. So how many MVPs has Kobe earned? Kobe has won a grand total of two All-Star game MVPs, although even boring old Duncan managed to win one of those as well. I could get into a whole range of player ranking systems and stats, but basically it's an easy argument to say that Duncan, Garnett, and LeBron James are better players, and when healthy Wade is at least as good as Kobe. Instead of being the best player in the NBA, Kobe is fighting to stay in the top five. This is reflected in PER. Kobe has finished higher than 5th only once in PER, and that one time was a third place finish in 05/06. And that's the player ranking system that actually rewards Kobe for taking every shot. The only year he managed to finish higher than fifth was the year he really did take every shot he could get his hands on and he still only finished 3rd. If Kobe really is the best player in the league shouldn't he at least be able to finish better than 5th more than once?
#2 "The only reason Kobe doesn't win is because his teammates are bad"
No one would call the Lakers roster great, but other players have done more with just as little. The 05/06 Lakers were a 45 win team with a 48 win point differential. It's the only one of the three years since Shaq left to be relatively injury free. That team did take Phoenix to seven games in the 1st round, but it also blew a 3-1 lead and ended with Kobe deciding not to take shots, while Phoenix won by 31 points in game seven. Consider the players that Duncan won a championship with in 02/03 beating Kobe and the Lakers along the way. Consider that Garnett took a team that had Sam Cassell as its 2nd best player to game six of the Western Conference Finals before losing to the Lakers a team where the 2nd best player was the great Kobe Bryant. And Sam Cassell was injured in game 3 of that series, and didn't play the last three games so Garnett may have taken that team to the finals. The series was tied at a game a piece before the 3rd game. Garnett's supporting cast was only three Player Wins better than Kobe's in 05/06. The difference was Garnett led the league in PER, Player Wins, and rebounding along with winning the MVP. Garnett had 17.3 Player Wins in 03/04 that ranked on par with Jordan's best, and Bryant managed a near career high 13.7 in 05/06. That's roughly the margin between Bryant and Ben Gordon. The problem isn't so much Bryant's teammates as the difference between Bryant's perceived value and his actual value.
#3 "Bryant is the closest thing to Michael Jordan"
This may be technically true in that they are both listed at 6'6", play SG, take a lot of shots, etc. But when people say this, they almost always use it as a means of supporting the idea that Bryant is Jordan like in terms of impact, which is why this falls on the stupid reasons list. It's indicative of someone failing to realize the size of the gap between Jordan and Bryant. Bryant's career high PER in 05/06 ranks 8th among Jordan's single season PERs. Bryant's 2nd highest PER finishes 10th among Jordan's PERs. And Bryant's seasons likely would not have ranked even that high if Jordan had the three seasons he lost to injury and retirement. To put this in perspective, Jordan's rookie season was basically Bryant's peak so far in terms of both PER and Players Wins. Again the difference between Jordan and Bryant is the same as the difference between Bryant and Ben Gordon last season. MJ consistently had an impact equal to that of the very best big men in the league. No other perimeter player has done that in the last thirty years. Bryant at his peak struggles to compete with a 22 year old LeBron James let alone Michael Jordan. Kobe Bryant wants to be a Jordan impersonator, but the impersonation is on the level of an Elvis impersonator. Everyone should know it's a joke and that it's entertainment largely without substance.
While I'm personally as excited about seeing Kobe Bryant in Bulls uniform as I am about seeing the Matadors up close, I won't begrudge people that have a desire to watch a "superstar." Be excited. Make your trade proposals. Just please refrain from using the stupid reasons above. Just because K.C. Johnson's thinks that Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the NBA doesn't mean you should. More of Trader Sam's objectivity seems to rub off on K.C. everyday. K.C. also tends to be more human interest than analytical, evidenced by him giving Matt a hard time for running stats on his blog. Instead, know Bryant's value when it comes to winning. If the goal is to get to the Finals then Bryant's supporting cast must be better than Wade, Garnett, and LeBron's. If the goal is to actually win a championship then the supporting cast has to be significantly better than Tim Duncan's, which means guys 4-8 have to be significantly better. Do you want to play all your chips while Duncan is still in his prime?
What is Bryant worth?
It's also possible a Bryant trade doesn't even improve the Bulls. If you still think Bryant's the greatest thing since sliced bread then don't bother reading this, find a Jay Mariotti column instead. Otherwise here's a look at what Bryant's value really is using Dean Oliver's Player Wins. If Gordon can play 3000 minutes (36.5 min/g, and he played 35 min/g over the last 41 games of last season) then the difference between Gordon and Bryant is about 3.5 Players wins over the same minutes played, plus another Player Win or two at the most for the additional minutes Bryant plays. That's if Bryant plays at his 05/06 level. If Bryant plays at his 06/07 level, which may be more likely given his increasing age and possible knee injuries, the gap between Bryant and Gordon slips to 1.5 Player Wins and 2.0 total. And that's only if Gordon doesn't get any better and further close the gap. If Nocioni and Tyrus Thomas are also traded with Gordon, it should be easy to see how trading for Bryant wouldn't necessarily end up making the Bulls any better. Thomas alone if he plays only as well as he did in the 2nd half of his rookie year is worth 2-3 Player Wins over Joe Smith and anyone else on the roster that takes his playing time. The gap between Gordon and Bryant isn't substantial enough to cover for the loss of Nocioni and Thomas let alone additional players in the short term if Bryant isn't playing at his peak level of production. And that's without the long term costs of shortening the team's competitive window by trading a 24 year old Top 10 SG and a 20 year old 4th overall pick. Unless you have Michael Jordan, championships are won primarily in the front court. Unless you think Tyrus Thomas is a complete bust, I'd be careful about trading him away. A player capable of guarding both LeBron James and Tim Duncan is a rare commodity.
I purposefully tried to be as fair to Bryant as possible, staying away from all the character issues. But, it's impossible to get around the fact that not even in one single season was Bryant ever the best player in the NBA by any statistical system except points scored. Both Jordan and Shaq led the league in PER at least five times. All the players that have been considered the best in the league have managed to finish at least 1st or 2nd in either PER or Player Wins, usually both. They also managed to win an MVP. Bryant simply doesn't have the resume. And I can't shake the belief that Bryant trade would end up making the Bulls worse both in the long term as well as the short term. At best I can see it as a slightly better than break even trade in the short term if Gordon, Nocioni, and Thomas are traded.
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85 comments
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Great work once again
Love the analysis.
by paxson43 on Oct 28, 2007 1:13 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice analysis. I would guess that everyone
by philosoball on Oct 28, 2007 1:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Wow that would suck if Matt
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 28, 2007 1:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
And here is that Marriotti column...
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariotti/624291,cst-spt-jay28A.article
Great post, sbulls.
by 1958ChiTown on Oct 28, 2007 2:18 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
When/Where did K.C....
by BenGo07 on Oct 28, 2007 3:12 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I think it was 3 years ago
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thomas
by Sambossanova on Oct 28, 2007 3:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
thomas' free throw shooting
by hscs on Oct 28, 2007 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And I'll wait to see...
Tyrus will drive better, get to the free throw line more, get more rebounds (offensive and defensive) and more blocks and score better over the whole year. Noah will probably get more assists, make less turnovers and might commit less fouls.
Anyone agree/disagree?
by tyger1147 on Oct 28, 2007 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I thought he showed it as recently as Thursday
Yes, if he had a reliable jumpshot he'd be able to bait even more defenders, but on athleticism alone he can force his man to hack him on instinct. (Few defenders are as smart as Ben Wallace, a master at not hacking on instinct)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
comparison
by CookDing on Oct 29, 2007 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thank you
by sue369 on Oct 28, 2007 4:35 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
While I agree with you about Kobe being overvalued
It all depends on how desperate the Lakers are to get something for Kobe. I'm sure Paxson won't do the trade for what the league considers market value, but if the Lakers are desperate enough, they could make it worthwhile to do the trade.
On the other hand, if the Bulls don't make a trade, I'm sure they will talk with the Lakers again in the future. The Bulls are really in a great position, with all the leverage on their side. And if they don't make the trade, I won't cry over it at all.
by Tim S. on Oct 28, 2007 5:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I'd think it'd only get better for the Bulls
The report last week saying that the Lakers were very interested in Nocioni was exciting, so who knows how much better of a deal can come along for Pax if he just waits until December.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I respectfully disagree ...
I strongly believe we have to make that trade for Kobe if actually winning a championship is our real goal. As Bulls fans, we should know better than most fans: superstars win championships!
Over 90% of the last 50 championship teams had a legitimate NBA 1st-Teamer within four years of their championship (82games reference). If we stay pat, we are banking on the -less than 10% chance- that everything aligns in a fluke year and we win with our '03-'04 Detroit Pistons team model.
But even at this moment, our Big Ben is not the dominant Defensive POY anymore and we don't have even have a semi-post player like 'Sheed. I love Deng as much as anyone, but he is not going to become a top five NBA player this year.
Anyone realize that Kobe also solves our post scoring problem as a bonus? Pax has to push hard for this trade. There is no chance our team will be gutted; Kobe has the only no trade clause in the NBA and he basically has control over who he wants to play with. We missed out on KG, so we can't let this opportunity slip by us.
I admire the hard work and effort of our young talented players, as well as the loyalty and values of those who don't want to break them up. But to be realistic (and cliche), we have to take this bigger risk in order to get that bigger reward.
Don't let that Mariotti hatred cloud your judgment!
by Orange Juice on Oct 28, 2007 5:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
if you've been reading here long enough
Tyrus will be DPOY and Luol will be the semi-post presence. Problem solved :).
(it's as much of an assurance as Kobe leading this team to a title, anyway)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
i never got the memo!!!
I look forward to reading this blog more frequently.
by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The superstar theory isn't really
by Scotter on Oct 28, 2007 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's not a theory damnit!
Kobe is definitely not in that group right now, but he has a great chance to be IF he's in the right situation. Bulls could be that situation. I think it's debatable whether Kobe or Lebron is the 2nd best NBA player behind Duncan. But I would have to say Kobe because of his championship experience, better defense, and more versatile offensive game.
by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Actually just the three Pistons teams
This is the Kobe kool-aid I'm talking about. These players that lead the league in PER and Player Wins don't suddenly start doing it over ten years into their careers. Kobe's not suddenly going to become better because he's in a Bulls uniform. If Kobe belonged in the list I gave then he would have made a case for being on it by now. Kobe is a Scottie Pippen level player, although not as efficient as Scottie so Kobe uses alot more possessions for the same productivity.
by Scotter on Oct 30, 2007 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But...
by theundergroundman on Oct 28, 2007 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
completely agree
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
you play to win the game
by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It isn't totally up to Paxson.
by Tim S. on Oct 28, 2007 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Superstars Win Championships?
by blackmage71 on Oct 28, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
props
other than being really long, good post. appreciate the separation of stupid questions. But, and I ask this more rhetorically, what are the "smart" questions to ask?
how about: when will this kobe beef end?
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 28, 2007 10:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
As usual
by bullshooter on Oct 28, 2007 11:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
All I said was that he was capable
And I even quantified how much better Bryant was than Ben Gordon. So I wasn't arguing that Gordon is just as good as Bryant. But, I am willing to argue that Gordon+Thomas = Bryant+Joe Smith by the end of this season. It's not like Bryant played any better when the Lakers won championsips. Kobe isn't Randy Moss. Kobe doesn't need a quaterback to get him the ball to be effective. He finds it on his own just fine. Bryant wasn't any more efficient when he had Shaq drawing double teams than he was the last couple of years. Ten years into his career, Bryant is suddenly going to become a more productive player because Scott Skiles is coaching him?
by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
change of scenery
by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Easy as 1, 2, 3
- The important issue is not whether Kobe is the best player in the league; its that he is a significant upgrade over Ben Gordon. Ben is a fine player, but he gets mercilessly exploited by the bigger and better backcourts in the league (see last season's Detroit series). That doesn't happen with Kobe as the 2. At this point, the Bulls want to be competing for a championship. To do that, you need to not only be able to beat the most teams, you need to be able to beat the best teams. If you were able to swap Gordon for Kobe straight up, the Bulls' biggest backcourt weaknesses would be solved, and a large part of the need for a post presence would be as well. Complaining because Kobe "struggles" to be a top 5 player seems a little nuts if you think about it. When does any team have a chance to land a top 15 player in the NBA? Not often. Who else on the Bulls is a top 15 player in the league? No one.
- You are comparing how Kobe has fared to Duncan, Garnett, and Jordan. That is not an argument that he won't help a team win. Saying that Kobe isn't going to be as dominant as three of the best players in NBA history doesn't change the fact that his skill set would fit in very well with what the Bulls currently have. If you could take the best of Gordon and Sefolosha (plus a post game) and fuse them into one player, the Bulls are contenders. That's what Bryant brings. Its an irrelevancy to say he doesn't measure up to the two best PFs in the league or the greatest player in history.
- Its the same point again. Kobe doesn't have to be the most dominant player in the game to make him worth acquiring.
That's really the tough question. I don't think most of the Bulls fans around here (or from what we've heard or read, the Bulls brass) are ready to gut the team to get Bryant. Speaking for myself, I love how this team has been largely constructed through the draft and "homegrown." My ideal preference would be to have this team as currently constructed win the title. But Bryant is a stellar talent and a fierce competitor. There is a chance that he would mesh very well with this Bulls squad because he is a notorious competitor and hard worker and might very well thrive playing with other like-minded players.
I also don't buy the player win comparison between Gordon and Bryant. Its not gross player wins where Gordon falls short. Its wins against the elite teams, and particularly those elite teams with large and talented backcourts, where the difference between Gordon and Bryant will manifest itself. And, one could fairly argue, it is that difference that separates merely reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs from playing for a ring.
That said, I agree that trading away a number of additional necessary pieces could offset the advantage of acquiring Bryant (the rumored Gordon, Deng, TT, Noah for Bryant trade is a joke). But the Bulls are blessed with a degree of redundancy which means that if they trade the right pieces, there may well be players left on the roster who can step up and replace any lost production.
At the end of the day, I agree with the premise of this diary that the Kobe fanatics breathing hard and saying "go get MJ! -- uh, I mean Kobe" are misguided. But I don't think its accurate to equate that with the subtext of this post that anyone who wants Bryant just wants to watch a superstar. Bryant is a tremendous player. He may not mean as much to a team as Duncan, but he means more than all but a small handful of other NBA players.
by preverbal on Oct 28, 2007 11:37 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The diary was really intended mostly to
Get Kobe for Gordon, Nocioni, and filler. And he makes this team better. Give up Noah also and the team's better off in the short term, worse in three years. Give up Tyrus instead of Noah and then I believe a Bryant trade becomes a loser. If the Bulls front court gets it's act together not having a 6'6" shooting guard won't matter at least in the East.
by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I think Detroit
by Option27 on Oct 29, 2007 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
You left out the if
by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Until Skiles adjusts the offense
by bullshooter on Oct 29, 2007 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes,
by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
this
For me, the argument FOR a Kobe trade is the possibility of moving Noce's contract and making an upgrade over Gordon. Outside of that, I'm not thrilled by the prospect of it. Actually, it just becomes an annoyance that the Lakers become so demanding when they hold virtually none of the cards.
by CookDing on Oct 29, 2007 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Very well said.
by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe is NOT 30 years old...
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
oh
by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Decline?
by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
BODIES
And, when you talk about Kobe's "best" seasons, you're referring to ppg, correct? I don't know how that automatically equates with best. Plus, you lose an offensive maincog like Shaq and sprinkle in an offensively inept supporting cast and Kobe is bound to increase his scoring avg. It doesn't necessarily mean he is playing better.
I stand by my point that wrapping up 35+ million in two players well into their primes at the cost of 2-4 players that come significantly cheaper and have yet to hit their primes could backfire. Certainly, we better win a championship within two years of getting Kobe since he could (and has shown a penchant for) leave within at that time.
If we can get Kobe at the price of Noce, Gordon and filler (that doesn't include Tyrus or Noah), I'm all for it. If it includes Deng, Kirk or either of our young bigs, I'm not so sure.
Please go back and read the posts in this thread as you seem to be barking up the wrong tree. The point is not that the Bulls wouldn't be better w/ Kobe or that Kobe isn't considerably "MJ-like" or that Kobe isn't a great player... ..the point is, most of the supportive arguments for getting Kobe are inherently flawed and statistical analysis such as PER (not just PPG) seem to back this up.
by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Clarification
Which supportive arguments are you referring to? Is it perhaps the "Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant"?
#1 "Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the league"
#2 "The only reason Kobe doesn't win is because his teammates are bad"
#3 "Bryant is the closest thing to Michael Jordan"
I can assure you that these 3 reasons are not why many of us want Kobe to join the Bulls. I have covered the reasons extensively on other posts.
The main disagreement we are having is whether one of TT or Noah should be included in the trade (in addition to Gordon and Noce) or not. I believe that this would be a good trade for the Bulls. In fact the Lakers will only accept this if they are forced by Kobe and are left with no other alternative.
"...statistical analysis such as PER (not just PPG) seem to back this up..."
Kobe is the 5th best player in the NBA (higher than Lebron) according to the "hallowed" PER. The only Bulls player in the top 50 is Deng at No 46. Where are Gordon & Nocioni? How exactly does this statistic not back up a trade involving Gordon/Noc/TT for Kobe?
by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
PER is good for ranking players,
by Scotter on Oct 30, 2007 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
my bad
Back to responding, you can't assure me that these three reasons are not why many people want Kobe short of citing a Zogby poll or something.
If the main disagreement is in fact about including Noah or TT in a trade then I can simply say that I'm split on this issue leaning towards "don't do it" (especially if it included both). However, if Pax pulled the trigger I don't think I'd be all burned up.
However, that doesn't seem to be the only arguement here as I seem to remember reading posts about Kobe's true value relative to statistical rankings, long-term productivity, etc. I could be wrong but I'm too lazy to read the couple dozen post in this thread.
You love Kobe and want him if it takes Gordon, Noce, Tyrus/Noah. I wouldn't hate that trade but Kobe's behavior does not portend a cheery future to me and the idea of getting a player that forced his team to take a bad trade and helped push a great meal-ticket out of town (Shaq) doesn't necessarily leave a great taste in my mouth. Not that that's everything, but it counts for something.
by CookDing on Oct 31, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Completely Agree!!
I dont like bryant as much as the next guy, and no way in hell do i want to give up so much of our great players to get him, but i think if you are a bulls fan, you want the bulls to not just play good, but win...and i still believe bryant is an upgrade on ANY of our core players.
Ben gordon is typically the best player to give up, not that he isnt a great (GREAT!!) player, but because he is a weak defender, and short guard, both which can and will be exploited by good teams. Deng has all the physicals of being a great player, and the pottential and ability to be one, so he is too much of an asset. Hinrich is in theory also expendable, although that leaves either bryant to play point, which would probably ruin the way the team runs, duhon to play point (which everyone would hate i guess), or gordon to play point which i strongly believe is a stupid move (also theres the fact that hinrich his my favorite player in the league...but thats just me).
Bryant has his share of problems, but he gives us alot of what we need, assuming we dont lose alot of we have. I think that is the only basis a bryant trade is worth it, if we give up enough to still retain most of what makes are team great. That is why if paxson can get away with just letting go of one core player, no matter who it is, and a bunch of bench players, then getting bryant would be a steal.
by piccolomair on Oct 29, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the perfect reply to this diary
by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
your point #1...
by ScottieCartwright on Oct 29, 2007 9:36 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
TIME to dispell some myths...
b.) Tyrus Thomas is awesome when it comes to athletic ability but there is no assurance that he will become truly great. I don't think he has the depth or understanding of the game to become a real force in the league.
Please read this report published today: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/625012,CST-SPT-kobe29.article
It looks like this is the end of Kobe in LA and the Lakers' bargaining power is diminishing by the minute.
I believe that a package including Gordon/a PF acquired as part of some kind of a 3-team deal e.g Juwon Howard/TT/Khryapa plus future draft picks is definitely worth doing. It seriously looks like the Lakers may agree a deal that involves only one of Hinrich/Gordon.
Consider this squad for a minute:
Captain Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noc/Noah
Wallace/Noah/Gray
Pax/Skiles PLEASE bring Kobe to Chi town... this is a golden opportunity. He is only 29 years old, he can easily give us 4-5 years of superstar basketball which translates to at least 4-5 years of being THE contenders in the East. Who can argue with that?
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Vangelis/Kobe-lovers PLEASE
This thread originated around three reasons NOT to use. I suggest you re-read them with special focus and comprehension on #1 if you think Kobe = Bird or Magic or MJ (#3).
Or just keep following Kobe and the Lakers (or whoever he's with) for the next 4-5 years. Seeing the resultant "superstar basketball" will help you get over being "pissed off for next 10 yrs".
by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The point surely is to maximise...
Captain Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noc/Noah
Wallace/Noah/Gray
I truly believe that this squad can guarantee that we will be serious contenders every year for a long-long time. I'd rather be in this situation rather than live in hope that TT & Noah will blossom one day.
As for the "specifics", I think that there are various options available. The broader issue here is "are we gonna go for it or not"? Pax has to take the plunge, man up and disassociate himself emotionally from this squad that he built (however hard it may be). The Bulls winning another championship with Kobe will be the biggest story in the NBA since MJ winning it in '98.
The problem with comments #1 & #3 is that they are purely based on stats when basketball is also about the intangibles that a player can win. There are reasons why Kobe's stats look the way they are (support cast being the main one). Garnett only went past the 1st round of the playoffs once in his Minnesota years.
PS Don't let your (justified or unjustified?) hatred of Kobe cloud your vision. He can bring a championship to Chicago as long as we only lose one of our big 3. He will thrive in Chi-town, he really will.
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Don't let your inability to comprehend
My point was this isn't the thread for "fantasy" lineups.
The only thing I hate about Kobe is how the media (and thus, certain fans) thinks he's MJ!
by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What you call "fantasy" lineup...
I "apologise" for getting excited at the prospect of an awesome player like Kobe coming to the Bulls for what increasingly appears to be a very reasonable price.
PS Noone said that Kobe "is" MJ. The fact that he IS (whether some people may like it or not) the closest anyone has come to MJ since his retirement does not mean Kobe is in the same league as MJ - MJ is a few steps above everyone else. We are saying he is closER than anyone else.
eg. last March he had four straight games of 50-plus points and averaged 53.6 in a five-game period. In January 2006 he scored 81 on the Raptors... the list goes on...
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Here's your problem,
by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
UGH!!!!
I'm done, outta here. Thanks for ruining the thread. Why don't you go watch a Laker game?
by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Crunch time for the Bulls
I agree that there is no point in continuing any debate with you, you clearly hate Kobe so much that you are swiftly turning into being first a "Kobe-hater" and then a Bulls fan, you said it yourself in your own words... "And then I admit, I wonder if I'd remain a fan..."
Also stop referring to sbulls9030's opinions as if they were undisputed facts, wake up... they are exactly that, OPINIONS. The point of threads is to discuss our views in a constructive way, after all we are all (supposedly!) Bulls fans, aren't we?
Final note, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are "... ruining the thread".
sbulls9030
a.) first of all Kobe being just "... about the 5th player in the league..." is your personal opinion. No offense intended, but don't confuse what you believe with reality. Have you ever thought what is the reason why Kobe "...doesn't make enough of the shots he takes consistently.."? The bigger picture (I could point out the quality of the support cast of MJ Vs support cast of Kobe, playing in different eras etc.) has to be used in conjunction with stats before coming to conclusions. Anyway, RELAX... I am not saying that Kobe is better than MJ (or even close!).
b.) The issue here is not how great Kobe is or whether he is better than Jordan. I will quote what preverbal said earlier:
"..Saying that Kobe isn't going to be as dominant as three of the best players in NBA history doesn't change the fact that his skill set would fit in very well with what the Bulls currently have. If you could take the best of Gordon and Sefolosha (plus a post game) and fuse them into one player, the Bulls are contenders. That's what Bryant brings. Its an irrelevancy to say he doesn't measure up to the two best PFs in the league or the greatest player in history..."
Kobe doesn't have to be the most dominant player in the game ever (or even in the top 5 since you are so obsessed with this classification!)to make him worth acquiring.
The point is can trading for him increase our chances of winning a championship and dominating the East for the next 4-5 years? I believe that if we only lose one of our big 3 - preferably Gordon the answer is YES.
IMO the problem you have is that you are emotionally attached to this young group of players and are not thinking straight. I admit I love this group of players and am very proud of the way they play and that they are homegrown. BUT... we have to do as an organisation what we is in our best interest - i.e manage our assets in the most effective way in order to win championships. Let's hope that Paxson/Skiles are ready for the challenge. I trust them 110% and expect to see Kobe suiting up in a Bulls uniform very soon (if not next week!!).
PS Kobe is "... not closer to MJ than Wade"? Give me a break!!!
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
very convincing
by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't give them any ideas
by bullshooter on Oct 29, 2007 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great I'm the one ruled by emotions.
I never said Kobe couldn't help the Bulls in the right trade. I stated that giving up Gordon, Noc, and Tyrus would be too much. And I tend to think giving up Gordon and Tyrus would be too much for a limited short term gain. Being the best in the East for 4-5 years isn't possible because Kobe won't be at his peak for 4-5 more years. A Kobe trade provides a 2-3 year window at best. He's played more minutes than any other player, but Garnett at the same age and he has knee issues. SGs generally don't age well, and they typically don't age gracefully. This is already a player that has missed at least 14 games in 4 of the last 8 seasons, those aren't positive signs for a continued productive career. Fine call me overly attached to the current team. A team where the biggest character issue is that Tyrus just works hard when he should be working really hard. Yes, I would rather watch team basketball than Kobe try to dribble through three defenders. That's my preference. But, perhaps you might want to consider why you keep reaching for weak excuses for Kobe.
by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Let's agree...
Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noah/PF aqcuired through trade
Wallace/Noah/Gray
This roster will be much better than what we have now for years to come. The synergies of Kirk/Kobe/Lu playing together are frightening to say the least. Something truly great might be born here. They will become the best 3 in the league, better than Duncan/Parker/Ginobili.
You say Kobe will be a limited short term gain:
a.) He will be 30 NEXT August. It is not unreasonable to expect Kobe to be playing at superstar levels at the age of 30, 31, 32.
b.) "... this is already a player that has missed at least 14 games in 4 of the last 8 seasons, those aren't positive signs for a continued productive career.." The truth of the matter is that '05-'06 and '06-'07 were two of Kobe's three best ever seasons in the league.
c.) The improvement to all star status of Deng/Kirk and general improvement of Noah and Thabo will compensate for any tailing off in Kobe's point production/minutes per game.
c.) As Kobe ages, he will have to become more efficient and team orientated, thus providing other intangible (not statistically measurable at the moment) benefits to the team.
d.) Anyway, would you not double team Kobe at the age of 33, 34 with the ball in his hands? Teams can choose not to at their own peril.
I say the Bulls with this trade will truly dominate the East for at least 4-5 years. Like I said before, you (and many other fans on this forum) are emotionally attached to our current young core of players. I am too... it is not easy to let go of something you have seen grow in front of your eyes. But, this will be forgotten (and worth it!) when Kirk/Kobe/Lu will be dominating the League for years to come.
PS I also believe that your dislike of Kobe is also affecting your views(in your own words, "... I'm personally as excited about seeing Kobe Bryant in Bulls uniform as I am about seeing the Matadors up close...").
by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Correction...
Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Griffin/Sefolosha
Smith/Noah/PF aqcuired through trade
Wallace/Noah/Gray
I'm so emotionally attached to Noc, I can't let go!!
by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
And in 55 days
by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The same...
by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Does not mean
by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Kobe
Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Smith
Wallace
Thats is pretty tough starting 5. Would be great to keep Noc as his 3 pt shooting would be good to have but even without him they still should have some depth
by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
for the record
I'll chear and hope for the best either way. I don't hate Kobe and will not hold his Laker days against him if he starts in Chicago, will judge him on his Chicago peformance if it happens. I also don't hate Gordon, but I do think Kobe could be big upgrade over Gordon. Personally I don't think Gordon is going to improve greatly from what we have seen so not worried about that. Its too early to say how good Thomas will be but I understand that to improve through trade Bulls will have to get rid of someone
by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Or they could not make a trade
Let's all cooperate with the thread topic and consider Kobe's value versus what would be left of our beloved team. Similar to Sbulls and a couple others, I put it at BG and Noc. And I'd go even further in saying you could throw in a couple picks.
And then I admit, I wonder if I'd remain a fan...
People, read some CBA if you're getting too emotional in Kobe-lust. It'll work like a cold shower, I bet.
by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
don't understand some of you
I'm a fan of the Bulls, if Pax makes the trade I'm confident he's not going to gut team, they will be as good with potential to be better
like I said, I'm a fan either way, and until I see a real offer I can't really way in I guess is bottom line but if Kobe comes to Bulls I'll chear him on just like every other Bulls player unless he does something to hurt the Bulls while he is there. The object is to win and I think Kobe wants to win. Of course he does want to be "the man" but so did MJ and I think Kobe is smart enough now to see he does need help and to play well with teammates to get another championship
by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Individual player improvement
Certainly not Ben Gordon -- he's such a liability on the defensive end and if that hasn't been fixed by now, I can't see it changing over the next couple seasons. Sure, the offense is there but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, I tend to think (anecdotal evidence -- maybe the stats bear out that I'm wrong?) Gordon gets shut down by elite defenders.
Deng may get a bit better, although his athleticism seems limited so I think he's going to reach a plateau. He'll still be a very good player, but I can't see him ever becoming a 'star' (however we want to define that -- top 20 player or so).
The main question lies with Thomas. It's tough for me to envision him becoming a truely great player. Yeah, he's fun to watch and an athletic freak, but he doesn't have much game on offense. On top of that his jump shot is as ugly as Noah's.
I'm with NYCF -- I'll root hard for them either way, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want the Bulls to land Kobe, even if it meant saying bye-bye to TT.
by CWSKeith on Oct 30, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
someone say top 20?
For the sake of oversimplifying a comment, Gordon is at good at defense as Thomas is at offense. They're both adequate.
by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Well I'll be damned
As far as your second comment, I'm not quite sure where you were going with it but I disagree that Gordon is even 'adequate' on defense. I don't expect him to be able to body up against guys who have four-or-five inches on him, but I'd expect him to be able to stay in front of people and he can't even do that. He's a bad defender. I'm not smart (nor do I watch) enough to comment on his rebounding skills.
by CWSKeith on Oct 30, 2007 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
it's only one season (kinda) of data
I hope Gordon isn't putting his body on anyone, he has enough problems with fouling. He's short, but at guard that's not a huge liability as the bigger, better wing players need to be contained with team defense anyway. Gordon is fine within the system, and getting beat in man defense isn't nearly as bad as roaming and leaving your man open.
by hscs on Oct 31, 2007 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
especially for a two-guard
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 31, 2007 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Excellent post
by Mike Aparicio on Oct 29, 2007 4:19 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I will be p**sed off for 10 years...
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:27 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
You'll get over it.
by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
I'd rather not...
by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:32 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
'Nuff said
In the top-5 is not replying to comments in their correctly threaded format.
I'll make a list eventually, it'll be better than 'community guidelines'.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 29, 2007 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
CSN talked
by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 7:01 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Missing the mark w/ MJ talk
"During all the recent Kobe Bryant talk, I've been surprised by how many people refer to Bryant as the "best player in the NBA" or the "league's best player since Michael Jordan."
No disrespect to Bryant, but last year's playoffs should have settled that issue. The best player in the NBA right now is Tim Duncan, and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.
Duncan and the Spurs have won four of the last nine championships because he excels on offense and defense, and he knows when it's best to defer to his teammates. There is more to basketball than scoring points."
http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=66201
Tim Duncan has been the keycog in more dominant teams than any other active player. Year in and year out, the Spurs top the short list of title contenders. That is as "MJ-like" as anybody could hope to be (and how I hate that term as we should just let MJ be "MJ" and other players be themselves). Kobe scores a lot of points, he creates shots and can do other stellar things, when he wants. But he's not Tim Duncan which speaks to his limitations more than his "scorer-esque" abilities. Let's put this to rest already.
by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 8:42 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Agree 100% with the 3 stupid reasons post
by California Al on Oct 30, 2007 2:58 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Nice post...
If I was going to trade several pieces of a very good, young team, that's in the top three of the East, I'd want someone like Melo or D-Wade in return.
In terms of skills and production how much difference is there between those two guys and Kobe?
They are younger, hungrier for a title, and as far as I can tell they don't like drama, which Kobe seems to live on.
by duaneo88 on Oct 30, 2007 5:07 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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