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Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant

I've been trying to avoid the Kobe trade issue because it's mostly indicative of everything wrong with the NBA.  It's the ESPN hype machine, SLAM magazine, Scoop Jackson, and Steven A.Smith combined with fans just as out of touch with reality.  Unfortunately I do end up reading some it and the following seems unavoidable.  Three stock phrases among many that are parroted by nearly everyone, including by people who should know better.

Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant

#1 "Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the league"
I realize all kinds of NBA players, media, and even a few coaches and GMs might agree with this statement, which gives fans free license to repeat this crap.  But it's both incorrect and reflective of the same mentality that leads people to complain about missing out on the J.R. Smith experience in Chicago.  Call Bryant the most talented player in the league.  The best shot creator in the league.  Call him the best perimeter defender in the league when he decides to play any.  These statements can be defended.  But if the Bulls trade for Bryant, I assume the goal is to win more games since the United Center already sells out.  So shouldn't the best player in the NBA be responsible for winning the most games for his team?

And when it comes to winning games for his team, it should be even more clear that Kobe isn't the best or the most dominant player in the NBA.  Boring old Tim Duncan is.  Yes, Duncan and his 4 championships where he actually was the best player on his team.  Yes, Duncan who has won 2 NBA MVPs and 3 Finals MVPs.  So how many MVPs has Kobe earned?  Kobe has won a grand total of two All-Star game MVPs, although even boring old Duncan managed to win one of those as well.  I could get into a whole range of player ranking systems and stats, but basically it's an easy argument to say that Duncan, Garnett, and LeBron James are better players, and when healthy Wade is at least as good as Kobe.  Instead of being the best player in the NBA, Kobe is fighting to stay in the top five.  This is reflected in PER.  Kobe has finished higher than 5th only once in PER, and that one time was a third place finish in 05/06.  And that's the player ranking system that actually rewards Kobe for taking every shot.  The only year he managed to finish higher than fifth was the year he really did take every shot he could get his hands on and he still only finished 3rd.  If Kobe really is the best player in the league shouldn't he at least be able to finish better than 5th more than once?

#2 "The only reason Kobe doesn't win is because his teammates are bad"
No one would call the Lakers roster great, but other players have done more with just as little.  The 05/06 Lakers were a 45 win team with a 48 win point differential.  It's the only one of the three years since Shaq left to be relatively injury free.  That team did take Phoenix to seven games in the 1st round, but it also blew a 3-1 lead and ended with Kobe deciding not to take shots, while Phoenix won by 31 points in game seven.  Consider the players that Duncan won a championship with in 02/03 beating Kobe and the Lakers along the way.  Consider that Garnett took a team that had Sam Cassell as its 2nd best player to game six of the Western Conference Finals before losing to the Lakers a team where the 2nd best player was the great Kobe Bryant.  And Sam Cassell was injured in game 3 of that series, and didn't play the last three games so Garnett may have taken that team to the finals.  The series was tied at a game a piece before the 3rd game.  Garnett's supporting cast was only three Player Wins better than Kobe's in 05/06.  The difference was Garnett led the league in PER, Player Wins, and rebounding along with winning the MVP.  Garnett had 17.3 Player Wins in 03/04 that ranked on par with Jordan's best, and Bryant managed a near career high 13.7 in 05/06.  That's roughly the margin between Bryant and Ben Gordon.  The problem isn't so much Bryant's teammates as the difference between Bryant's perceived value and his actual value.

#3 "Bryant is the closest thing to Michael Jordan"
This may be technically true in that they are both listed at 6'6", play SG, take a lot of shots, etc.  But when people say this, they almost always use it as a means of supporting the idea that Bryant is Jordan like in terms of impact, which is why this falls on the stupid reasons list. It's indicative of someone failing to realize the size of the gap between Jordan and Bryant.  Bryant's career high PER in 05/06 ranks 8th among Jordan's single season PERs.  Bryant's 2nd highest PER finishes 10th among Jordan's PERs.  And Bryant's seasons likely would not have ranked even that high if Jordan had the three seasons he lost to injury and retirement.  To put this in perspective, Jordan's rookie season was basically Bryant's peak so far in terms of both PER and Players Wins.  Again the difference between Jordan and Bryant is the same as the difference between Bryant and Ben Gordon last season.  MJ consistently had an impact equal to that of the very best big men in the league.  No other perimeter player has done that in the last thirty years.  Bryant at his peak struggles to compete with a 22 year old LeBron James let alone Michael Jordan.  Kobe Bryant wants to be a Jordan impersonator, but the impersonation is on the level of an Elvis impersonator.  Everyone should know it's a joke and that it's entertainment largely without substance.

While I'm personally as excited about seeing Kobe Bryant in Bulls uniform as I am about seeing the Matadors up close, I won't begrudge people that have a desire to watch a "superstar."  Be excited.  Make your trade proposals.  Just please refrain from using the stupid reasons above.  Just because K.C. Johnson's thinks that Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the NBA doesn't mean you should.  More of Trader Sam's objectivity seems to rub off on K.C. everyday.  K.C. also tends to be more human interest than analytical, evidenced by him giving Matt a hard time for running stats on his blog.  Instead, know Bryant's value when it comes to winning.  If the goal is to get to the Finals then Bryant's supporting cast must be better than Wade, Garnett, and LeBron's.  If the goal is to actually win a championship then the supporting cast has to be significantly better than Tim Duncan's, which means guys 4-8 have to be significantly better.  Do you want to play all your chips while Duncan is still in his prime?  

What is Bryant worth?
It's also possible a Bryant trade doesn't even improve the Bulls.  If you still think Bryant's the greatest thing since sliced bread then don't bother reading this, find a Jay Mariotti column instead.  Otherwise here's a look at what Bryant's  value really is using Dean Oliver's Player Wins.  If Gordon can play 3000 minutes (36.5 min/g, and he played 35 min/g over the last 41 games of last season) then the difference between Gordon and Bryant is about 3.5 Players wins over the same minutes played, plus another Player Win or two at the most for the additional minutes Bryant plays.  That's if Bryant plays at his 05/06 level.  If Bryant plays at his 06/07 level, which may be more likely given his increasing age and possible knee injuries, the gap between Bryant and Gordon slips to 1.5 Player Wins and 2.0 total.  And that's only if Gordon doesn't get any better and further close the gap.  If Nocioni and Tyrus Thomas are also traded with Gordon, it should be easy to see how trading for Bryant wouldn't necessarily end up making the Bulls any better.  Thomas alone if he plays only as well as he did in the 2nd half of his rookie year is worth 2-3 Player Wins over Joe Smith and anyone else on the roster that takes his playing time.  The gap between Gordon and Bryant isn't substantial enough to cover for the loss of Nocioni and Thomas let alone additional players in the short term if Bryant isn't playing at his peak level of production.  And that's without the long term costs of shortening the team's competitive window by trading a 24 year old Top 10 SG and a 20 year old 4th overall pick.  Unless you have Michael Jordan, championships are won primarily in the front court.  Unless you think Tyrus Thomas is a complete bust, I'd be careful about trading him away.  A player capable of guarding both LeBron James and Tim Duncan is a rare commodity.  

I purposefully tried to be as fair to Bryant as possible, staying away from all the character issues.  But, it's impossible to get around the fact that not even in one single season was Bryant ever the best player in the NBA by any statistical system except points scored.  Both Jordan and Shaq led the league in PER at least five times.  All the players that have been considered the best in the league have managed to finish at least 1st or 2nd in either PER or Player Wins, usually both.  They also managed to win an MVP.  Bryant simply doesn't have the resume.  And I can't shake the belief that Bryant trade would end up making the Bulls worse both in the long term as well as the short term.  At best I can see it as a slightly better than break even trade in the short term if Gordon, Nocioni, and Thomas are traded.

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Great work once again
One spelling edit: it's "most dominant player in the league".

Love the analysis.

by paxson43 on Oct 28, 2007 1:13 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Thanks
I was in a rush to get out before my ultimate frisbee game.

by Scotter on Oct 28, 2007 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Nice analysis. I would guess that everyone
would agree that Bryant is worth trading Gordon and Noc for. The question is how good is Tyrus going to be. If Tyrus doesn't develope offensively, the Bulls have no low post offense for the forseeable future and will likely lose to the teams with dominant centers/superstars. If, on the other hand, Tyrus ever becomes a legit all-star calibre player I would guess that the Bulls will regret trading him for the short-term success a Bryant would likely bring. Thus, I would say once again that the Bulls future comes down to the answer to the question: WILL TYRUS LEARN TO HIT A JUMPSHOT and/or become an all-star?

by philosoball on Oct 28, 2007 1:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Wow that would suck if Matt
took this down! The rule is you can only have one Kobe thread every month.
''This whole parties out of control!''-Moose

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 28, 2007 1:31 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

When/Where did K.C....
...give Matt a hard time?

by BenGo07 on Oct 28, 2007 3:12 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I think it was 3 years ago
When KC had a weekly mailbag feature on the trib site. I asked his opinion on the reason for Ben Gordon's high foul rate and KC was surprised someone would waste the time with the grueling calcuation of fouls per40.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:09 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thomas
I doubt the bulls are too high on thomas after his hmmm...lack of improvement.  I'll wait till the regular season to judge, but other than dunking he doesnt bring much to the table that noah cant do (block shots, and rebound).  I dont think the bulls would win less games without Thomas.  He can change the game quite a bit but i think kobe gets ur more wins than thomas/gordon/noc can.  When Kobe is also playing defense, it will be pretty tough on the opposing team to have to face kobe and hinrich.  Not many people will be able to get into the lane very easily.

by Sambossanova on Oct 28, 2007 3:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

thomas' free throw shooting
was pretty good in the preseason, and hopefully it wasn't a fluke. He probably gets to the line and drives better than Noah ever will. I'm interested to see who plays better man defense, and Thomas is pretty good at stealing the ball.

by hscs on Oct 28, 2007 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And I'll wait to see...
...if Noah can rebound and block as well as Tyrus.

Tyrus will drive better, get to the free throw line more, get more rebounds (offensive and defensive) and more blocks and score better over the whole year. Noah will probably get more assists, make less turnovers and might commit less fouls.

Anyone agree/disagree?

Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Oct 28, 2007 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought he showed it as recently as Thursday
First time Thomas got the ball he just went baseline towards the basket and got fouled.

Yes, if he had a reliable jumpshot he'd be able to bait even more defenders, but on athleticism alone he can force his man to hack him on instinct. (Few defenders are as smart as Ben Wallace, a master at not hacking on instinct)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

comparison
I am not sure a comparison Noah and Thomas will be entirely productive.  It was clear a year ago that these were two different players.  In an ideal world, one will end up a center that does not have to create shots and the other will be a PF that does create shots.  Then, both could play together.  Noah as a facilitator and Thomas as the creator.  
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 29, 2007 8:16 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thank you
so much for posting this. I think the Bulls should stand pat and see how the year plays out. I feel TT will get his focus and play like the player we all want him to be.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 28, 2007 4:35 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

While I agree with you about Kobe being overvalued
by the market, I also do think he is an excellent veteran player with championship experience, and I would love to see him play with Wallace and Deng and Hinrich.  And although Noah and Thomas have potential, relying on future potential is also a big gamble, especially as Wallace's ability declines.

It all depends on how desperate the Lakers are to get something for Kobe.  I'm sure Paxson won't do the trade for what the league considers market value, but if the Lakers are desperate enough, they could make it worthwhile to do the trade.

On the other hand, if the Bulls don't make a trade, I'm sure they will talk with the Lakers again in the future.  The Bulls are really in a great position, with all the leverage on their side.  And if they don't make the trade, I won't cry over it at all.

by Tim S. on Oct 28, 2007 5:01 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I'd think it'd only get better for the Bulls
from their standpoint, unless Deng/Gordon fall on their faces this season, they'll be even bigger chips to trade as time goes on. Plus Nocioni (and Joe Smith for that matter) become more tradeble during that time as well.

The report last week saying that the Lakers were very interested in Nocioni was exciting, so who knows how much better of a deal can come along for Pax if he just waits until December.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I respectfully disagree ...
Hello everyone, this is my first comment here. I've been reading this blog for awhile however, and finally I feel compelled to join in the discussion.

I strongly believe we have to make that trade for Kobe if actually winning a championship is our real goal. As Bulls fans, we should know better than most fans: superstars win championships!

Over 90% of the last 50 championship teams had a legitimate NBA 1st-Teamer within four years of their championship (82games reference). If we stay pat, we are banking on the -less than 10% chance- that everything aligns in a fluke year and we win with our '03-'04 Detroit Pistons team model.

But even at this moment, our Big Ben is not the dominant Defensive POY anymore and we don't have even have a semi-post player like 'Sheed. I love Deng as much as anyone, but he is not going to become a top five NBA player this year.

Anyone realize that Kobe also solves our post scoring problem as a bonus? Pax has to push hard for this trade. There is no chance our team will be gutted; Kobe has the only no trade clause in the NBA and he basically has control over who he wants to play with. We missed out on KG, so we can't let this opportunity slip by us.

I admire the hard work and effort of our young talented players, as well as the loyalty and values of those who don't want to break them up. But to be realistic (and cliche), we have to take this bigger risk in order to get that bigger reward.

Don't let that Mariotti hatred cloud your judgment!

by Orange Juice on Oct 28, 2007 5:42 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

if you've been reading here long enough
then you should know most of us hate the 'superduperstar gold medal olympic awesome' theory of championship building.

Tyrus will be DPOY and Luol will be the semi-post presence. Problem solved :).

(it's as much of an assurance as Kobe leading this team to a title, anyway)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i never got the memo!!!
Although the NBA is evolving, I still believe those few elite players are so much better than everyone else that they can take over the game. How much can our young guys close the gap? It was disgusting to watch Lebron against the Pistons that 4th quarter of Game 5.

I look forward to reading this blog more frequently.

by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The superstar theory isn't really
about superstars.  It's about getting the opportunity to draft, or aquire through a lopsided trade or free agency a player that was the best or 2nd best player in the league.  Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Hakeem, Shaq, Duncan.  Kobe's place isn't in that group.  The Bulls simply aren't going to get their hands on Tim Duncan or LeBron James. So Kobe or not, the Bulls will have to win with team basketball and roster depth.

by Scotter on Oct 28, 2007 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's not a theory damnit!
That's a hell of a list. That seems to cover every championship since 1980 except Dr. J's 76ers and those three Piston teams.

Kobe is definitely not in that group right now, but he has a great chance to be IF he's in the right situation. Bulls could be that situation. I think it's debatable whether Kobe or Lebron is the 2nd best NBA player behind Duncan. But I would have to say Kobe because of his championship experience, better defense, and more versatile offensive game.

by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Actually just the three Pistons teams
because both Moses Malone and Julius Erving finished 1st in PER at some point, Malone in the season the 76ers won. It's called the superstar theory because fans think any old superstar will do, which leads teams to trade for 2nd tier superstars like Kobe.  

This is the Kobe kool-aid I'm talking about.  These players that lead the league in PER and Player Wins don't suddenly start doing it over ten years into their careers.  Kobe's not suddenly going to become better because he's in a Bulls uniform.  If Kobe belonged in the list I gave then he would have made a case for being on it by now.  Kobe is a Scottie Pippen level player, although not as efficient as Scottie so Kobe uses alot more possessions for the same productivity.

by Scotter on Oct 30, 2007 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

actually
Kobe would have to have a fluke year to be good enough to make a superduperstar impact on the Bulls.

by hscs on Oct 28, 2007 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

But...
A Kobe trade only makes a difference dependent on what we give up for him. This is why I always get pissed about Holllinger's constant refrain that we missed out bigtime by not trading for Gasol. Unless you somehow have inside info on what specific trades are on the table saying "we should trade for this guy" is ridiculous. Who knows, maybe Hollinger does have inside info, but it never makes sense to say this team should have traded for this guy without mentioning who they would have had to give up.

by theundergroundman on Oct 28, 2007 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

completely agree
worst example (of course) is Jay "Go get him, boy" Mariotti.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 28, 2007 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

you play to win the game
I left out the trade scenarios on purpose because no matter what happens, our chances for a championship increase with Kobe on our team. I respect the intelligence of Paxson and Kobe, so I have no worries about the trade. As long as the Lakers are willing to let Kobe go, we'll come out big winners.

by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:32 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

It isn't totally up to Paxson.
Kobe won't go to a gutted team, so if Paxson wants Kobe he has to figure out a way to hold on to Wallace and Deng and Hinrich at least.  So even if you are right that Kobe is a superstar around which we can build a championship team (a premise which is open to debate), Paxson can't just offer the Lakers whatever they want.

by Tim S. on Oct 28, 2007 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Superstars Win Championships?
Kinda contentious don't cha think? Besides, Kirk, Deng and maybe BG have yet to reach their pick. Just based on what we have seen so far, I don't think it'll take long for all 3 of them to be all-NBA players.
醉生梦死

by blackmage71 on Oct 28, 2007 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

props
haaa, those stupid questions seem to linger- they just cannot be ignored.

other than being really long, good post. appreciate the separation of stupid questions. But, and I ask this more rhetorically, what are the "smart" questions to ask?

how about: when will this kobe beef end?

by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 28, 2007 10:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

As usual
a very thorough argument.  However, I have to disagree on a few points.  First, Tyrus can't guard either LeBron or Duncan, and saying so is hyperbole at best.  Those two would abuse him at this point.  I think Tyrus has a lot of potential, but he's not anywhere near there yet.  Second, BG is also a very good young player, but if he's in the top 10, he's number 10.  Kobe would be an upgrade over him.  Kobe would benefit as much from a change of scenery and playing with better teammates in firmer team structure just like Randy Moss has.  That said, if I am Paxson, BG is the only starter I give up for him since Pax has the leverage and Kobe would take all of BG's minutes and shots.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Oct 28, 2007 11:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

All I said was that he was capable
of guarding both.  He has both the lateral quickness to keep James in front of him and the length to defend a post player like Duncan.  That makes him pretty unique.  Unless you disagree that he has that kind of physical ability?  And I doubt that they would abuse him anymore than anyone else.  I remember the 2nd Spurs game last year well because it was one of Tyrus's starts.  And I remember him guarding Duncan well, bothering Duncan with his length and quickness.  It's one game, but it showed potential.  Tyrus only played significant minutes in one Cavs game, which was the game where James scored 39 and Tyrus scored 27 in 39 minutes.  But, Deng played 46 minutes and I don't remember Tyrus guarding James much if at all, but it was part of the rationale for drafting him.  

And I even quantified how much better Bryant was than Ben Gordon.  So I wasn't arguing that Gordon is just as good as Bryant.  But, I am willing to argue that Gordon+Thomas = Bryant+Joe Smith by the end of this season.  It's not like Bryant played any better when the Lakers won championsips.   Kobe isn't Randy Moss.  Kobe doesn't need a quaterback to get him the ball to be effective.  He finds it on his own just fine.  Bryant wasn't any  more efficient when he had Shaq drawing double teams than he was the last couple of years.  Ten years into his career, Bryant is suddenly going to become a more productive player because Scott Skiles is coaching him?

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 12:01 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

change of scenery
2 of Kobe's top 3 seasons were 05-06 and 06-07. He isn't playing below himself.

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Easy as 1, 2, 3
While I have mixed feelings about a Kobe trade, and while I always appreciate sbulls' analyses, this diary smacks of setting up straw men and knocking them down.
  1.  The important issue is not whether Kobe is the best player in the league; its that he is a significant upgrade over Ben Gordon.  Ben is a fine player, but he gets mercilessly exploited by the bigger and better backcourts in the league (see last season's Detroit series).  That doesn't happen with Kobe as the 2.  At this point, the Bulls want to be competing for a championship.  To do that, you need to not only be able to beat the most teams, you need to be able to beat the best teams.  If you were able to swap Gordon for Kobe straight up, the Bulls' biggest backcourt weaknesses would be solved, and a large part of the need for a post presence would be as well.  Complaining because Kobe "struggles" to be a top 5 player seems a little nuts if you think about it.  When does any team have a chance to land a top 15 player in the NBA?  Not often.  Who else on the Bulls is a top 15 player in the league?  No one.
  2.  You are comparing how Kobe has fared to Duncan, Garnett, and Jordan.  That is not an argument that he won't help a team win.  Saying that Kobe isn't going to be as dominant as three of the best players in NBA history doesn't change the fact that his skill set would fit in very well with what the Bulls currently have.  If you could take the best of Gordon and Sefolosha (plus a post game) and fuse them into one player, the Bulls are contenders.  That's what Bryant brings.  Its an irrelevancy to say he doesn't measure up to the two best PFs in the league or the greatest player in history.
  3.  Its the same point again.  Kobe doesn't have to be the most dominant player in the game to make him worth acquiring.
So what is Bryant really worth?

That's really the tough question.  I don't think most of the Bulls fans around here (or from what we've heard or read, the Bulls brass) are ready to gut the team to get Bryant.  Speaking for myself, I love how this team has been largely constructed through the draft and "homegrown."  My ideal preference would be to have this team as currently constructed win the title.  But Bryant is a stellar talent and a fierce competitor.  There is a chance that he would mesh very well with this Bulls squad because he is a notorious competitor and hard worker and might very well thrive playing with other like-minded players.

I also don't buy the player win comparison between Gordon and Bryant.  Its not gross player wins where Gordon falls short.  Its wins against the elite teams, and particularly those elite teams with large and talented backcourts, where the difference between Gordon and Bryant will manifest itself.  And, one could fairly argue, it is that difference that separates merely reaching the 2nd round of the playoffs from playing for a ring.

That said, I agree that trading away a number of additional necessary pieces could offset the advantage of acquiring Bryant (the rumored Gordon, Deng, TT, Noah for Bryant trade is a joke).  But the Bulls are blessed with a degree of redundancy which means that if they trade the right pieces, there may well be players left on the roster who can step up and replace any lost production.

At the end of the day, I agree with the premise of this diary that the Kobe fanatics breathing hard and saying "go get MJ! -- uh, I mean Kobe" are misguided.  But I don't think its accurate to equate that with the subtext of this post that anyone who wants Bryant just wants to watch a superstar.  Bryant is a tremendous player.  He may not mean as much to a team as Duncan, but he means more than all but a small handful of other NBA players.

Time Warner Cable: The Place to Be, if you want to see no preseason games even after paying for League Pass.

by preverbal on Oct 28, 2007 11:37 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The diary was really intended mostly to
address the media, fans, etc. using the three reasons I discussed.  You seem to be either distorting what I wrote or I didn't present my thoughts very well, probably the latter because the last two paragraphs don't have much to do with the rest of the diary. The diary was meant mostly to refute those arguments I see pop up every where.  People like to claim that Bryant is better than Duncan, Garnett, etc., so there is a need to show the gap between those players.  And you know that swapping Ben Gordon for Kobe Bryant straight up isn't an option so I'm not sure what relevancy that has.  I was refuting stupid reasons to trade for Kobe.  There are good reasons to trade for Kobe such as Kobe actually being worth more than the Bulls give up in a trade.  But such a deal isn't very likely because all indications are that Lakes management believes the hype surrounding Kobe.

Get Kobe for Gordon, Nocioni, and filler.  And he makes this team better.  Give up Noah also and the team's better off in the short term, worse in three years.  Give up Tyrus instead of Noah and then I believe a Bryant trade becomes a loser.  If the Bulls front court gets it's act together not having a 6'6" shooting guard won't matter at least in the East.

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think Detroit
proved you wrong on the whole "not having a 6'6 shooting guard not mattering in the East"

by Option27 on Oct 29, 2007 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

You left out the if
I said if the Bulls frontcourt gets fixed then it want matter.  Backcourt size was a contributing factor, but it was more a product of Detroit still being better at more positions.  

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 8:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Until Skiles adjusts the offense
to take advantage of a better frontcourt, not having a big SG is going to be a disadvantage against Detroit.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Oct 29, 2007 9:23 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Yes,
and don't forget about Thabo.

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

this
post hits the nail on the head.  Despite the arguments being made, Kobe does not equal a championship.  And Kobe coming to the Bulls isn't automatically a good thing.  Kobe coming to the Bulls on Pax's terms seems to be the only net positive move for the Bulls.  The talk of trading one of the three, Noah AND Tyrus PLUS filler is a joke.  For me, let's try to move Noce, Ben and a few other minor pieces or let's stand pat.  I know I harp on the point but the Bulls are the youngest competitive team in the NBA.  We have pre-peak-year talent at all five positions.  Getting Kobe (who is 30 years old and is not Jordan.. ...a point obscured by the whole "Closest thing to Jordan" argument that in previous years has included luminaries such as J.R. Ryder) significantly shortens a the lifespan for this Bulls team to be competitive.  If we trade anymore than two of our young, talented players (and one of our core), I just don't see how we've improved.  
For me, the argument FOR a Kobe trade is the possibility of moving Noce's contract and making an upgrade over Gordon.  Outside of that, I'm not thrilled by the prospect of it.  Actually, it just becomes an annoyance that the Lakers become so demanding when they hold virtually none of the cards.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 29, 2007 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Very well said.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 9:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kobe is NOT 30 years old...
... he is 29 (born in August 1978).

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

oh
gee, I stand corrected.  You're right, being 29, is a HUGE differentiator.  almost as large as the fact that Kobe's body is already showing signs of wear and that pairing him with Big Ben will dedicate 45 Million dollars to two players with bodies in decline.  Woo hoo, sign me up.  
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Decline?
Two of Kobe's top 3 seasons were 05-06 and 06-07.

by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 12:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

BODIES
...in decline.  Kobe himself has stated in the past that an SG's body begins to wear down as they approach their thirties.  The fact that he's been suffering an increasing amount of injuries (and already had a knee scoped) supports such a statement.  
And, when you talk about Kobe's "best" seasons, you're referring to ppg, correct?  I don't know how that automatically equates with best.  Plus, you lose an offensive maincog like Shaq and sprinkle in an offensively inept supporting cast and Kobe is bound to increase his scoring avg.  It doesn't necessarily mean he is playing better.
I stand by my point that wrapping up 35+ million in two players well into their primes at the cost of 2-4 players that come significantly cheaper and have yet to hit their primes could backfire.  Certainly, we better win a championship within two years of getting Kobe since he could (and has shown a penchant for) leave within at that time.  
If we can get Kobe at the price of Noce, Gordon and filler (that doesn't include Tyrus or Noah), I'm all for it.  If it includes Deng, Kirk or either of our young bigs, I'm not so sure.  
Please go back and read the posts in this thread as you seem to be barking up the wrong tree.  The point is not that the Bulls wouldn't be better w/ Kobe or that Kobe isn't considerably "MJ-like" or that Kobe isn't a great player... ..the point is, most of the supportive arguments for getting Kobe are inherently flawed and statistical analysis such as PER (not just PPG) seem to back this up.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 1:01 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Clarification
"... most of the supportive arguments for getting Kobe are inherently flawed"
Which supportive arguments are you referring to? Is it perhaps the "Three Stupid Reasons to Trade for Kobe Bryant"?

#1 "Kobe Bryant is the best most dominant player in the league"

#2 "The only reason Kobe doesn't win is because his teammates are bad"

#3 "Bryant is the closest thing to Michael Jordan"

I can assure you that these 3 reasons are not why many of us want Kobe to join the Bulls. I have covered the reasons extensively on other posts.

The main disagreement we are having is whether one of TT or Noah should be included in the trade (in addition to Gordon and Noce) or not. I believe that this would be a good trade for the Bulls. In fact the Lakers will only accept this if they are forced by Kobe and are left with no other alternative.

"...statistical analysis such as PER (not just PPG) seem to back this up..."
Kobe is the 5th best player in the NBA (higher than Lebron) according to the "hallowed" PER. The only Bulls player in the top 50 is Deng at No 46. Where are Gordon & Nocioni? How exactly does this statistic not back up a trade involving Gordon/Noc/TT for Kobe?

by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

PER is good for ranking players,
but it's not very good at assigning worth.  That's why I used Player Wins for that part of the comparison.  Which actually connects player performance to expected wins.  Which is why I prefer, but it takes more skilled interpretation than PER.  But if you want to use PER.  Thomas had a 2nd half PER between 18-20.  Trading him means replacing his minutes with a guy with a PER of 14ish.  Who replaces Noc's minutes?  Not another player with a PER over 15.

by Scotter on Oct 30, 2007 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my bad
for not stating that PER was an example of a stat that could have more value than PPG (which I asked if you were using when referring to Kobe's best years of his career).  Personally, I view Kobe's best year's as the years when he played on championship teams.  His play against Pippen in the Portland series was phenomenal.  
Back to responding, you can't assure me that these three reasons are not why many people want Kobe short of citing a Zogby poll or something.  
If the main disagreement is in fact about including Noah or TT in a trade then I can simply say that I'm split on this issue leaning towards "don't do it" (especially if it included both).  However, if Pax pulled the trigger I don't think I'd be all burned up.
However, that doesn't seem to be the only arguement here as I seem to remember reading posts about Kobe's true value relative to statistical rankings, long-term productivity, etc.  I could be wrong but I'm too lazy to read the couple dozen post in this thread.
You love Kobe and want him if it takes Gordon, Noce, Tyrus/Noah.  I wouldn't hate that trade but Kobe's behavior does not portend a cheery future to me and the idea of getting a player that forced his team to take a bad trade and helped push a great meal-ticket out of town (Shaq) doesn't necessarily leave a great taste in my mouth.  Not that that's everything, but it counts for something.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 31, 2007 10:09 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Completely Agree!!
I have, in the last week or so, been pushing the bryant trade thing after talking to alot of people about there output on the bulls situation.
I dont like bryant as much as the next guy, and no way in hell do i want to give up so much of our great players to get him, but i think if you are a bulls fan, you want the bulls to not just play good, but win...and i still believe bryant is an upgrade on ANY of our core players.

Ben gordon is typically the best player to give up, not that he isnt a great (GREAT!!) player, but because he is a weak defender, and short guard, both which can and will be exploited by good teams. Deng has all the physicals of being a great player, and the pottential and ability to be one, so he is too much of an asset. Hinrich is in theory also expendable, although that leaves either bryant to play point, which would probably ruin the way the team runs, duhon to play point (which everyone would hate i guess), or gordon to play point which i strongly believe is a stupid move (also theres the fact that hinrich his my favorite player in the league...but thats just me).

Bryant has his share of problems, but he gives us alot of what we need, assuming we dont lose alot of we have. I think that is the only basis a bryant trade is worth it, if we give up enough to still retain most of what makes are team great. That is why if paxson can get away with just letting go of one core player, no matter who it is, and a bunch of bench players, then getting bryant would be a steal.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Oct 29, 2007 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

the perfect reply to this diary
If I could put my thoughts into words and write better, I would've said what you've said. I think I might come off as a Kobe homer, but I'm not. I just think we need a player of his caliber to win a championship.

by Orange Juice on Oct 30, 2007 12:42 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

your point #1...
is VERY similar to a statement in Mike McGraw's article.

by ScottieCartwright on Oct 29, 2007 9:36 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

TIME to dispell some myths...
a.) Deng/Hinrich/Gordon will NEVER become superstars with the true "MJ, Bird, Magic and yes Kobe" meaning of the word. In case you haven't noticed, all the mega stars in NBA history were big (or expected to be big) from very early on in their career - if not from their rookie season (MJ, Kareem, Bird, Magic, LeBron etc). Being a superstar has a lot to do with having LEADERSHIP qualities (you have to be selfish in the NBA if you want to win damnit!) and having a dominating personality. You can almost argue that you have to be born with these character traits, you DO NOT suddenly acquire them in your 4th year in the League. How do we know that Hinrich and Gordon have not already peaked anyway?
b.) Tyrus Thomas is awesome when it comes to athletic ability but there is no assurance that he will become truly great. I don't think he has the depth or understanding of the game to become a real force in the league.

Please read this report published today: http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/625012,CST-SPT-kobe29.article
It looks like this is the end of Kobe in LA and the Lakers' bargaining power is diminishing by the minute.

I believe that a package including Gordon/a PF acquired as part of some kind of a 3-team deal e.g Juwon Howard/TT/Khryapa plus future draft picks is definitely worth doing. It seriously looks like the Lakers may agree a deal that involves only one of Hinrich/Gordon.

Consider this squad for a minute:

Captain Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noc/Noah
Wallace/Noah/Gray

Pax/Skiles PLEASE bring Kobe to Chi town... this is a golden opportunity. He is only 29 years old, he can easily give us 4-5 years of superstar basketball which translates to at least 4-5 years of being THE contenders in the East. Who can argue with that?

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:09 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Vangelis/Kobe-lovers PLEASE
refrain from making trade proposals without SPECIFICS of players/teams involved ensuring CBA legality!

This thread originated around three reasons NOT to use. I suggest you re-read them with special focus and comprehension on #1 if you think Kobe = Bird or Magic or MJ (#3).

Or just keep following Kobe and the Lakers (or whoever he's with) for the next 4-5 years. Seeing the resultant "superstar basketball" will help you get over being "pissed off for next 10 yrs".

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 4:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The point surely is to maximise...
... our chances to win. Do you think that the roster below is not capable of winning a championship?

Captain Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noc/Noah
Wallace/Noah/Gray

I truly believe that this squad can guarantee that we will be serious contenders every year for a long-long time. I'd rather be in this situation rather than live in hope that TT & Noah will blossom one day.

As for the "specifics", I think that there are various options available. The broader issue here is "are we gonna go for it or not"? Pax has to take the plunge, man up and disassociate himself emotionally from this squad that he built (however hard it may be). The Bulls winning another championship with Kobe will be the biggest story in the NBA since MJ winning it in '98.

The problem with comments #1 & #3 is that they are purely based on stats when basketball is also about the intangibles that a player can win. There are reasons why Kobe's stats look the way they are (support cast being the main one). Garnett only went past the 1st round of the playoffs once in his Minnesota years.

PS Don't let your (justified or unjustified?) hatred of Kobe cloud your vision. He can bring a championship to Chicago as long as we only lose one of our big 3. He will thrive in Chi-town, he really will.

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Don't let your inability to comprehend
stop you from commenting? I'll keep it simple.

My point was this isn't the thread for "fantasy" lineups.

The only thing I hate about Kobe is how the media (and thus, certain fans) thinks he's MJ!

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

What you call "fantasy" lineup...
... looks like it may become reality. The Lakers are getting more and more desperate by the day and Kobe ONLY wants to come to Chicago.

I "apologise" for getting excited at the prospect of an awesome player like Kobe coming to the Bulls for what increasingly appears to be a very reasonable price.

PS Noone said that Kobe "is" MJ. The fact that he IS (whether some people may like it or not) the closest anyone has come to MJ since his retirement does not mean Kobe is in the same league as MJ - MJ is a few steps above everyone else. We are saying he is closER than anyone else.

eg. last March he had four straight games of 50-plus points and averaged 53.6 in a five-game period. In January 2006 he scored 81 on the Raptors... the list goes on...

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 5:52 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Here's your problem,
your focusing on how many points he can score in a game.  That's a semi-unique ability, but it doesn't translate to winning games very well.  And it shows a lack of understanding of what made MJ great.  It wasn't his fifty or 63 point games.  It was the consistency with which he made shots and scored points.  Kobe in any single game Kobe can have a high as good as Jordan, but he's never been ableto sustain Jordan level of efficiency.  Kobe simply doesn't make enough of the shots he takes consistently.  He's still about the fifth best player in the league, but calling Kobe the closest thing to Jordan is a statement without any significant meaning.  Because he's no closer to Jordan than Wade, and neither is anything like Jordan in terms of productivity.

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 6:06 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

UGH!!!!
Reason Number Three..."He's the closest anyone has come to MJ since..."

I'm done, outta here. Thanks for ruining the thread. Why don't you go watch a Laker game?

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Crunch time for the Bulls
marionette
I agree that there is no point in continuing any debate with you, you clearly hate Kobe so much that you are swiftly turning into being first a "Kobe-hater" and then a Bulls fan, you said it yourself in your own words... "And then I admit, I wonder if I'd remain a fan..."
Also stop referring to sbulls9030's opinions as if they were undisputed facts, wake up... they are exactly that, OPINIONS. The point of threads is to discuss our views in a constructive way, after all we are all (supposedly!) Bulls fans, aren't we?
Final note, just because someone disagrees with you, does not mean they are "... ruining the thread".

sbulls9030
a.) first of all Kobe being just "... about the 5th player in the league..." is your personal opinion. No offense intended, but don't confuse what you believe with reality. Have you ever thought what is the reason why Kobe "...doesn't make enough of the shots he takes consistently.."? The bigger picture (I could point out the quality of the support cast of MJ Vs support cast of Kobe, playing in different eras etc.) has to be used in conjunction with stats before coming to conclusions. Anyway, RELAX... I am not saying that Kobe is better than MJ (or even close!).
b.) The issue here is not how great Kobe is or whether he is better than Jordan. I will quote what preverbal said earlier:

"..Saying that Kobe isn't going to be as dominant as three of the best players in NBA history doesn't change the fact that his skill set would fit in very well with what the Bulls currently have.  If you could take the best of Gordon and Sefolosha (plus a post game) and fuse them into one player, the Bulls are contenders.  That's what Bryant brings.  Its an irrelevancy to say he doesn't measure up to the two best PFs in the league or the greatest player in history..."

Kobe doesn't have to be the most dominant player in the game ever (or even in the top 5 since you are so obsessed with this classification!)to make him worth acquiring.
The point is can trading for him increase our chances of winning a championship and dominating the East for the next 4-5 years? I believe that if we only lose one of our big 3 - preferably Gordon the answer is YES.

IMO the problem you have is that you are emotionally attached to this young group of players and are not thinking straight. I admit I love this group of players and am very proud of the way they play and that they are homegrown. BUT... we have to do as an organisation what we is in our best interest - i.e manage our assets in the most effective way in order to win championships. Let's hope that Paxson/Skiles are ready for the challenge. I trust them 110% and expect to see Kobe suiting up in a Bulls uniform very soon (if not next week!!).

PS Kobe is "... not closer to MJ than Wade"? Give me a break!!!

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

very convincing
you should post a diary and repeat all these incredible ideas.

by hscs on Oct 29, 2007 7:24 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't give them any ideas
it's bad enough that joejoe figured out where that link does.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Oct 29, 2007 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great I'm the one ruled by emotions.
Yet, you trust Paxson/Skiles 110%?  Claim the reason Bryant can't make shots is bad teammates when Jordan had Brad Sellers running around him when he was putting up a TS% over 60%, and one of the best seasons in NBA history.  Kobe being the fifth best player in the league right now isn't so much my opinion as PER's.  Fifth is Kobe's average finish over the last five years, and PER gives all the credit you could want to a scorer.  I call him about the fifth best player in the league because that's what he consistently ends up being.  I keep having to clarify Kobe's value because you keep over stating his value.

I never said Kobe couldn't help the Bulls in the right trade.  I stated that giving up Gordon, Noc, and Tyrus would be too much.  And I tend to think giving up Gordon and Tyrus would be too much for a limited short term gain.  Being the best in the East for 4-5 years isn't possible because Kobe won't be at his peak for 4-5 more years.  A Kobe trade provides a 2-3 year window at best.  He's played more minutes than any other player, but Garnett at the same age and he has knee issues.  SGs generally don't age well, and they typically don't age gracefully.  This is already a player that has missed at least 14 games in 4 of the last 8 seasons, those aren't positive signs for a continued productive career.  Fine call me overly attached to the current team.  A team where the biggest character issue is that Tyrus just works hard when he should be working really hard.  Yes, I would rather watch team basketball than Kobe try to dribble through three defenders.  That's my preference.  But, perhaps you might want to consider why you keep reaching for weak excuses for Kobe.  

by Scotter on Oct 29, 2007 9:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Let's agree...
... to disagree. I believe that Kobe is worth trading Gordon, Noc & TT.

Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Noc/Griffin
Smith/Noah/PF aqcuired through trade
Wallace/Noah/Gray

This roster will be much better than what we have now for years to come. The synergies of Kirk/Kobe/Lu playing together are frightening to say the least. Something truly great might be born here. They will become the best 3 in the league, better than Duncan/Parker/Ginobili.

You say Kobe will be a limited short term gain:

a.) He will be 30 NEXT August. It is not unreasonable to expect Kobe to be playing at superstar levels at the age of 30, 31, 32.

b.) "... this is already a player that has missed at least 14 games in 4 of the last 8 seasons, those aren't positive signs for a continued productive career.." The truth of the matter is that '05-'06 and '06-'07 were two of Kobe's three best ever seasons in the league.

c.) The improvement to all star status of Deng/Kirk and general improvement of Noah and Thabo will compensate for any tailing off in Kobe's point production/minutes per game.

c.) As Kobe ages, he will have to become more efficient and team orientated, thus providing other intangible (not statistically measurable at the moment) benefits to the team.

d.) Anyway, would you not double team Kobe at the age of 33, 34 with the ball in his hands? Teams can choose not to at their own peril.

I say the Bulls with this trade will truly dominate the East for at least 4-5 years. Like I said before, you (and many other fans on this forum) are emotionally attached to our current young core of players. I am too... it is not easy to let go of something you have seen grow in front of your eyes. But, this will be forgotten (and worth it!) when Kirk/Kobe/Lu will be dominating the League for years to come.

PS I also believe that your dislike of Kobe is also affecting your views(in your own words, "... I'm personally as excited about seeing Kobe Bryant in Bulls uniform as I am about seeing the Matadors up close...").

by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 2:59 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Correction...
... of lineup posted above;

Kirk/Duhon/Sefolosha
Kobe/Sefolosha
Deng/Griffin/Sefolosha
Smith/Noah/PF aqcuired through trade
Wallace/Noah/Gray

I'm so emotionally attached to Noc, I can't let go!!

by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 3:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And in 55 days
Santa Claus will be bringing you everything you want for Christmas.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 6:54 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The same...
... ironic arguments were made about KG but he did get traded in the end.

by Vangelis on Oct 30, 2007 6:29 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Does not mean
Kobe will. I hope they keep his ass in LA. He's a drama queen and the Bulls don't need that distraction.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 7:47 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kobe
Everyone may not want to call Kobe a superstar but he can play both ends of the court (showed desire on D during summer play with team USA) and shoot inside / outside and draw fouls.  Very much an improvement over Gordon.  Bulls are very deep so if you can get Kobe for Gordon/ ThomasorNoah / picks and filler (Noc?Duhon?Krappy?)you have to think about it.  Although I'm not sure Bulls picks are worth much as they will be low.

Hinrich
Kobe
Deng
Smith
Wallace

Thats is pretty tough starting 5.  Would be great to keep Noc as his 3 pt shooting would be good to have but even without him they still should have some depth

by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

for the record
I'm torn if I want to see Kobe on Bulls or for them to stay pat another season

I'll chear and hope for the best either way.  I don't hate Kobe and will not hold his Laker days against him if he starts in Chicago, will judge him on his Chicago peformance if it happens.  I also don't hate Gordon, but I do think Kobe could be big upgrade over Gordon.  Personally I don't think Gordon is going to improve greatly from what we have seen so not worried about that.  Its too early to say how good Thomas will be but I understand that to improve through trade Bulls will have to get rid of someone

by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 5:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Or they could not make a trade
and improve with individual player improvement. To me, this year the Bulls will find out if they can make it with two small guards. I know everyone is anxious to get Kobe NOW, but the chance will still be there next June, in all likelihood.

Let's all cooperate with the thread topic and consider Kobe's value versus what would be left of our beloved team. Similar to Sbulls and a couple others, I put it at BG and Noc. And I'd go even further in saying you could throw in a couple picks.

And then I admit, I wonder if I'd remain a fan...

People, read some CBA if you're getting too emotional in Kobe-lust. It'll work like a cold shower, I bet.

by marionette on Oct 29, 2007 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

don't understand some of you
Is your Kobe hate so deep?  How would you not be a fan.

I'm a fan of the Bulls, if Pax makes the trade I'm confident he's not going to gut team, they will be as good with potential to be better

like I said, I'm a fan either way, and until I see a real offer I can't really way in I guess is bottom line but if Kobe comes to Bulls I'll chear him on just like every other Bulls player unless he does something to hurt the Bulls while he is there.  The object is to win and I think Kobe wants to win.  Of course he does want to be "the man" but so did MJ and I think Kobe is smart enough now to see he does need help and to play well with teammates to get another championship

by NY Chicago Fan on Oct 29, 2007 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Individual player improvement
Who on this Bulls team figures to get significantly better than they were last season?  

Certainly not Ben Gordon -- he's such a liability on the defensive end and if that hasn't been fixed by now, I can't see it changing over the next couple seasons.  Sure, the offense is there but as was mentioned earlier in the thread, I tend to think (anecdotal evidence -- maybe the stats bear out that I'm wrong?) Gordon gets shut down by elite defenders.

Deng may get a bit better, although his athleticism seems limited so I think he's going to reach a plateau.  He'll still be a very good player, but I can't see him ever becoming a 'star' (however we want to define that -- top 20 player or so).

The main question lies with Thomas.  It's tough for me to envision him becoming a truely great player.  Yeah, he's fun to watch and an athletic freak, but he doesn't have much game on offense.  On top of that his jump shot is as ugly as Noah's.  

I'm with NYCF -- I'll root hard for them either way, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't want the Bulls to land Kobe, even if it meant saying bye-bye to TT.

by CWSKeith on Oct 30, 2007 9:19 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

someone say top 20?
here you go.

For the sake of oversimplifying a comment, Gordon is at good at defense as Thomas is at offense. They're both adequate.

by hscs on Oct 30, 2007 9:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well I'll be damned
Touche, hscs.  If we went by the 'top 20 player' definition, it looks like (it could be argued) Deng could, in fact, be considered a star.  Although some of the names on that list, I'd have to say, made me scratch my head -- I mean, is Antonio McDyess seriously a top 20 player?  Is that because the stat doesn't adjust for minutes played?  You'll have to excuse me that I didn't read the whole article, just took a quick glance at the first table.

As far as your second comment, I'm not quite sure where you were going with it but I disagree that Gordon is even 'adequate' on defense.  I don't expect him to be able to body up against guys who have four-or-five inches on him, but I'd expect him to be able to stay in front of people and he can't even do that.  He's a bad defender.  I'm not smart (nor do I watch) enough to comment on his rebounding skills.

by CWSKeith on Oct 30, 2007 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

it's only one season (kinda) of data
Nothing to base an argument on really, but it's nice to see defense count for something. The head scratchers like Rondo are there thanks to limited minutes and the "volatility" of adjusted +-. McDyess did have his best season since 2000-01 according to other metrics, and the hardest part of using any kind of +- is context.

I hope Gordon isn't putting his body on anyone, he has enough problems with fouling. He's short, but at guard that's not a huge liability as the bigger, better wing players need to be contained with team defense anyway. Gordon is fine within the system, and getting beat in man defense isn't nearly as bad as roaming and leaving your man open.  

by hscs on Oct 31, 2007 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

especially for a two-guard
I think even if Gordon remains 'adequate' (or not) on defense, if he only managed to make a slight improvement in turnovers he'd be a much better player.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 31, 2007 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Excellent post
Please forward to John Paxson immediately.

by Mike Aparicio on Oct 29, 2007 4:19 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I will be p**sed off for 10 years...
... if we lose this opportunity! Kobe is only 29 years old (born in August 1978)..

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:27 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

You'll get over it.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 29, 2007 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd rather not...
... and see another 3-peat in Chicago. 'Nuff said.

by Vangelis on Oct 29, 2007 4:32 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

'Nuff said
That's the number one way to make me punch my monitor.

In the top-5 is not replying to comments in their correctly threaded format.

I'll make a list eventually, it'll be better than 'community guidelines'.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 29, 2007 4:34 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

thank you
I needed a laugh.  ...the overplayed "unintentional comedy scale" just went off the charts when I got to this point in the thread.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 7:30 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

CSN talked
with Big Ben at practice yesterday and he said Kobe would help many teams. Then he said he likes this Bulls team and thinks they can do well the way they are. He said the guys came back dedicated to making this team better. Joe Smith said this is as excited as he's ever been as the opening game nears. He also said he likes this team as it is. I hope Pax agrees with them and let's them show what they can do.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 30, 2007 7:01 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Missing the mark w/ MJ talk
I think what is missed by all this "Kobe = closest thing to MJ" talk is what is being said.  Are these comparisons of productivity?  Not necessarily.  It's more talk about style and stature in that these players are often taller SG's that create shots.  McGraw hits the more pertinent heart of this issue

"During all the recent Kobe Bryant talk, I've been surprised by how many people refer to Bryant as the "best player in the NBA" or the "league's best player since Michael Jordan."

No disrespect to Bryant, but last year's playoffs should have settled that issue. The best player in the NBA right now is Tim Duncan, and I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise.

Duncan and the Spurs have won four of the last nine championships because he excels on offense and defense, and he knows when it's best to defer to his teammates. There is more to basketball than scoring points."

http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=66201

Tim Duncan has been the keycog in more dominant teams than any other active player.  Year in and year out, the Spurs top the short list of title contenders.  That is as "MJ-like" as anybody could hope to be (and how I hate that term as we should just let MJ be "MJ" and other players be themselves).  Kobe scores a lot of points, he creates shots and can do other stellar things, when he wants.  But he's not Tim Duncan which speaks to his limitations more than his "scorer-esque" abilities.  Let's put this to rest already.

"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 30, 2007 8:42 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Agree 100% with the 3 stupid reasons post
But, as you said, that's not the total discussion.  He's not Bird, MJ or MJ.  But just like Rodman was no Tim Duncan, he could be the difference in titles or not.  I suggested after 2005-06 that a Kobe-Bulls trade made sense for both teams; the Detroit series didn't change my mind.  Like it or not, Pax invested a lot in now vs later with Big Ben.  BG for Kobe's a no brainer IMHO, so the question is how much more do the Bulls have to pay.  I think the price is going down by the day, and Pax will get it right.  There's only one reason to trade for Kobe; there's too much size combined w talent at the guard position in the East for the Bulls to win with Gordon and Heinrich

by California Al on Oct 30, 2007 2:58 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Nice post...
Kobe is great, but honestly I wouldn't trade for him unless I got a deal that would be considered the best trade in the past 50 years.
If I was going to trade several pieces of a very good, young team, that's in the top three of the East, I'd want someone like Melo or D-Wade in return.
In terms of skills and production how much difference is there between those two guys and Kobe?
They are younger, hungrier for a title, and as far as I can tell they don't like drama, which Kobe seems to live on.

by duaneo88 on Oct 30, 2007 5:07 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

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