If Aaron Gray is starting this team is in big goddamned trouble
Thanks a lot Skiles, all the web aggregators of the world will now have a 'Aaron Gray to start for Bulls?' headline that will make the team look like a joke. (I suppose I'm not helping)
We have to decide, balancing both units, do we want a couple of defensive players in the starting lineup or do we want more offense. Aaron has shown--and I think he will in the regular season--that he can score. Do we want to use that to start a game? It's something we have to think about."
No, you don't have to think about it. Not really.
Then again I missed the last preseason game so maybe Aaron Gray was George Mikan out there. And I mean the prime Mikan, I had previously thought he more resembled the current (dead) version. I guess I'll have to pay more attention Tuesday night. But that Indiana game had no Deng or Gordon, so I suppose that may be a case where you'd want more offense in the starting lineup. But even then there's Nocioni, 'cause this team was supposedly deep in the frontcourt with options like that.
I'm glad KC Johnson included this about the Pacers game:
"The mobility issue, in my mind, is much less a factor even than it was in the summer," Skiles said. "He's definitely picked up how we want him to move and where we want him to move to. And because his hands are so good and he's got a soft touch and his size, it makes up for those issues. It's just an experience thing. During the season, you're going to see the quick guards come off pick-and-rolls and attack him. The question is can he move his feet and stay in the game."
I'm sure the regular season games will go much slower for him.
I can't take this slow-start-while-Skiles-figures-out-what-he-has nonsense again. Just wait until Gordon has a few turnovers this week and there will be rumblings that Chris Duhon 'may get a look' in the starting lineup.
Remember when we were worried about finding minutes in a crowded and talented frontcourt for Noah, Thomas, Nocioni, and Smith? A few good stints with non-regular lineups and against non-regular opposition and it changes all that?
Eh, I'm guessing this is all Skiles mind-games to get Noah and Thomas sweating. And Joe Smith to practice more. And to drive me crazy.
0 recs |
172 comments
Comments
I recorded that last preseason game and watched
He backed up everything they said about him. He even came help side and blocked the crap out of some dude trying to dunk on him for the second game. His outside looked like silk. He made all his free throws. He stays calm when the shot clock is in red and he has alot of confidence in his offensive game. His mistakes are good mistakes if you know what I mean. Like even when something bad happens you know it was close to being a good play and not at all a dumb play. What I like about him is he's smart. He knows where to be and when he should be shooting. I made a comment after the game that he looks like a starter. (Oh of course nobody read that)
He has his slow big man moments but I think the Bulls might have got a steal. Of course we need to see him against starters.
Dead Mikan? What are you talking about. This guy has some game. Atleast so far he has looked like their best big. He can do alot. He is big so he does lumber a bit but he's huge. You must not have been watching many games these past few weeks.
Once again what I see Skiles sees. Like with Deng playing the 2. Now Gray maybe a starter. Hmmmmmmm
Really though it might be worth a look to start Gray because he can score inside.
Last thing was it seemed like Wallace really has takin a liking to Gray they seemed to feed off each other. He can take pressure off of Wallace. Basically.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:15 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Aaron Gray = The Answer?!
by AngryAsianAce on
Oct 23, 2007 2:07 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
not a bad idea
He still might only get 20 minutes a game, starting the first and third quarters, and then bring in Noah and Thomas for energy and athleticism off the bench. I assume he'd see no time in the crunch. Certainly something to try out and see what happens. If it fails, we've dealt with slow starts before and always recovered.
by JSlakov on
Oct 23, 2007 12:25 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I agree also
I think what sets Gray back is he doesn't dunk when he's close to the basket. He just kinda lays the ball in the basket. It's really odd. He just does his job there isn't much flash. Maybe the scouts thought he would get his ass kicked in the pros. Maybe he will still but I like what I see so far.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:45 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't think it's lack of flash
But I will give Gray credit in that when he does go for that close layup he does it right away before his defender realizes it. (Preseason defender, anyway.)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 9:16 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Oh and your last few sentences
At one point in the game( I rewinded it 4 times) Noah was about to check in and he asked a question to the coaching staff and Skiles sent him back to the bench. At which point he shugged his shoulders in discust over Skiles demotion. Once he had a seat on the bench the assistant coach Boylan starter going over things with him on the white board.
Then I kept rewinding the part where Noah kinda like flug his hands and had his mouth guard hanging out. Skiles face was so red but he just kept squinting at the free throw line.
Thomas didn't work hard this summer and you can tell. He's always winded and gets lazy on passes and his stupid spin move. He's still a kid. He needs to grow up.
Of course this is just preseason so it could be a fluke. But I see what I see.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:35 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I havent seen any preseason games yet....
by boyonthedock on
Oct 23, 2007 12:42 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Yeah he can!
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:52 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
the fact that this is even possible
Says that they made a high-value pick in the mid-2nd round by getting Gray. so, that's good.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:45 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Marquette
by givepaxahug on
Oct 23, 2007 3:05 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Marquette
by boyonthedock on
Oct 23, 2007 4:04 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
THat Game
by givepaxahug on
Oct 23, 2007 4:31 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Found it!
Im sure though he'll play bad in Dallas and JS will end up starting.I guess we'll see.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 1:02 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Aaron Gray had great college stats.
http://www.draftexpress.com/viewarticle.php?a=2136
The knock against him is that he looks slow and unathletic, and people question how his game will translate to the pros. But he might do better as a starter, running set plays in a half-court offense, than as a bench player asked to bring energy to the court. He could also be a starter and not get starter minutes.
But if he does start, I'm sure the other team will go at him and see if he gets some quick rookie fouls called on him. And whoever he is covering should run the court and see if he is slow to catch up. The problem is that the other big men, except for Wallace, seem to be behind in conditioning and/or learning the plays. Oh well, if nothing else the Bulls have plenty of fouls to give.
by Tim S. on
Oct 23, 2007 5:59 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
On the other hand, Hollinger says:
I guess the real disappointment here is Thomas, who has played a whole year with the Bulls, and is supposed to turn into a star. Why wouldn't he be ready to start ahead of a rookie second-round pick? It's also too bad Joe Smith hasn't been healthy.
by Tim S. on
Oct 23, 2007 6:23 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I never liked that '7-footer' caveat
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:48 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Hmmm
I haven't seen a preseason game (thank you Time Warner Cable), but I have liked everything I've read about Gray since the pick. I certainly was not high on him coming out of college, but I would be thrilled to be proven wrong.
I can imagine how it could work (if -- and granted its a huge if -- he can score in the post like a poor man's Eddy, throw him out there for the first 6-10 min of each half to settle the game down), but I just can't believe its even been thrown out there as a possibility.
At the end of the day, its a real positive in that the Bulls may have a big 7 footer who can actually help the team, but its also very disconcerting that TT hasn't locked that spot down, particularly with Jos Smith being hurt.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 10:58 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It's a conspiracy Matt
Seriously, I don't think Pax wants a slow start either, so he may have a few things to say to Skiles about it. During last season Pax said he was "on the ledge" after the month of November but someone talked him out of making some hasty moves.
by KT on
Oct 23, 2007 6:34 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
On the bright side . . .
by Big D on
Oct 23, 2007 7:37 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
heh, it wouldn't be Bulls basketball
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:46 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I did hear Lu
They did an interview with Aaron on there last night and he really has the desire to play well and help this team.
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 9:10 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Congrats, Sue
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 9:27 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think
These last couple of games of the preseason is when most of the teams start to give their regulars more minutes and are using more of a set rotation...this will show us what Gray can do against some polished starters.
If he stinks up the place tonight, then at least you still have one more preseason game to try Tyrus, Joe, or Noah in the starting lineup.
I'm hoping for the Milwaukee game, that our regular starting five can be on the floor at least ONE time together
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 9:18 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
PF Starter Does Not Matter
Gordon, Deng, Hinrich, and Wallace-35 minutes each=140 minutes
Nocioni 25 minutes
Thalbo 15 minutes
Duhon 10 minutes
That leaves 50 minutes for everone else. Hopefully, TT will step forward and grab 20 to 25 minutes with outstanding play. At this point, I have no idea how Skiles will divide up these 50 minutes of playing time.
by Goshdengit on
Oct 23, 2007 9:56 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Your calcs
Not unless someone is injured or the 2-3 players in front of him gets in serious foul trouble
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 10:24 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't want this to be open tryouts
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:27 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Precisely because
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 10:42 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
right, so play them
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:44 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
oh, and judging by Duhon's career
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:44 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
only 20 games
keep in mind i'm the conductor of the "duh is great as a backup pg and only pg for no more than 20 mins especially as showcasing in a trade" train
choo choo
by milesgmsu on
Oct 24, 2007 10:07 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The three players
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 10:45 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
they're all proven
And Gray isn't even playing that well! If he was dramatically outperforming the other guys (and had a better pedigree), maybe. I'm just not seeing this drastic change when Gray's out there like you guys are.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:54 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 11:03 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Although he could suck
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 11:07 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The starting PF from last year is gone
Also, Nocioni is accepted to be a better option coming off the bench, Smith has barely played and is probably still less than 100%, and Thomas has shown little improvement from when he was a backup last year. There's nothing cut and dry about this decision.
by rexisourqb on
Oct 23, 2007 11:18 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
it's also the antithesis of a good team
Especially since the sample size is small, meaningless, and you have to strain to consider Gray as slightly outperforming his peers, let alone drastically.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 11:23 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The flaw in your reasoning is that
There's many other possibilities that come from your first statement. First, there's the possibility is that the Bulls aren't a championship team yet. That is supported by the fact that the supposed starting Power Forwards are either too injured or too raw to make the coach rule out the possibility of starting a surprise 2nd round rookie.
Another possibility is that there's more than one way to create a championship team. If you can accept that the Bulls have a chance to win it all despite lack of a "superstar" or a "low post presence", there's no reason to rule out a team winning the championship with a rookie starting and playing 15-20 minutes a night.
When it was Thomas vs Smith vs Noah, wasn't it still an open competition? I didn't see this level of protest from you when they were considering Noah for a starting spot. Your draft position is not equal to your skill level.
by rexisourqb on
Oct 23, 2007 11:50 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
there is something cut and dry
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 11:23 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
However I wouldn't start him
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 10:45 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
So is Luol playing on Holloween?
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 10:46 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Easy question
Who amongst you think that:
- The plan will be to feed Aaron Gray
- It'll work out well
- It'll work out well enough to counteract his defensive problems.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 10:50 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Gray can score and pass and he's big.
by Tim S. on
Oct 23, 2007 12:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm pretty much with Matt on this one
by wjb1492 on
Oct 23, 2007 10:50 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
formula
production=playing time.
I'm not as upset about the idea of tinkering in the first few weeks as long is it's not terribly dramatic. Ten preseason games can't be too helpful for getting a solid lineup.
I do agree with the idea that starting a rookie at Center is not very inspiring. A possible bright points of such a move:
Ben getting some minutes at PF which should help him keep from wearing down.
by CookDing on
Oct 23, 2007 10:55 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Matt, every time
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 10:57 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I do have it out for Gray
Because this team should be WAY beyond the point of giving guys tryouts and letting rookie 2nd-rounders work their way up in the rotation on a couple weeks.
It's insane, this team is supposed to win the Eastern Conference, and a lot of that has to do with the supposed continuity they've forged. And the collection of talent. Gray serves neither.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 11:19 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
although I do appreciate the idea
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 11:20 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I thought about that
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 11:46 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
For a long time now,
Personally, I think Tyrus has played well enough to start. He's not piling up immediate fouls. He's gotten obviously bigger and stronger. He's made some decent passes, hit a few mid-range jumpers...and he's still a nasty defender around the basket.
It's been argued here that Joe Smith's offense might be more important coming off the bench than starting, and I agree with that.
Noah just doesn't look like he has it together yet. Noce is Noce. You can play him at three different positions and he'll give you decent minutes at all three.
That leaves Gray. I think without question Gray has been the surprise of the camp, almost a revelation. The biggest thing about Gray is that he gives the team something they can't get from anyone else on the roster--potential scoring in the low post.
What has been the biggest criticism of the Bulls for the past two years? By far and away, it has been that they have lacked a post scoring threat. That's what Gray potentially gives them. It's no surprise Skiles is trying to figure out how best to get him in the game.
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 11:45 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
only when you use it
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 12:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
...says the boy who calls himself
Sometimes this stuff just writes itself.
by ChrisRobin on
Oct 23, 2007 2:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
especially if you can't grasp sarcasm
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 2:15 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Please feel free
by ChrisRobin on
Oct 23, 2007 6:31 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Hey, it's a weak conference.
But remember that Ben Wallace was undrafted. So was Brad Miller. And most people think it was a strong draft. Maybe the Bulls got themselves a low-post scorer!
Yes, I'm disappointed that Skiles seems underwhelmed with Thomas, but from what I can tell he hasn't given up on him at all. According to this article (http://www.dailyherald.com/story/?id=61777) the Bulls are "very happy with Thomas' progress." Maybe their just even happier with Gray (good news!), or maybe we are reading way too much into this.
by Tim S. on
Oct 23, 2007 12:01 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't know if they think he can be their
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 10:58 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
The post headline says it all
They groomed Tyrus in the later part of last season to be ready for this kind of problem if they faced it. They drafted Noah cause he was supposedly "NBA Ready". They signed Joe Smith pretty much FOR that spot.
Let's not get too hyped on what the rookie showed all of us in preseason. I'm as high on this guy as most of us but the fact remains, the Bulls need someone there that's shown they could do the job already.
by Option27 on
Oct 23, 2007 11:15 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I just heard on the radio Skiles might
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 11:20 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I watched every minute of the preseason
His lack of speed didn't hurt him much. He was certainly in his spot on offensive sets, was able to make baskets against all competition, usually had good rebounding position, and was there to challenge the shot on defense. He didn't get the flashy blocks, but he definitely changed shots. Gray's one negative was being foul prone. That's not too bad since he was never going to play 40 minutes a game anyway.
Gray is far more ready to start than Noah, I don't care where they were picked. Not only does he know the plays a lot better, he can contribute consistently in more ways. Noah might have a back to the basket move, but we'll never see it because he will get stripped every single time he starts backing someone down. His awareness and decision making is really lacking. If it was up to me, i'd send him to big man school for the first half of the season and have him learn post moves, how to hold the ball so it's protected, how to distinguish a high % shot from a low one. It's true that Noah has good ball handling and passing skills, but if he dribbles in traffic and can't see the open man, those skills mean nothing.
Tyrus is disappointing. He's still depending too much on his athleticism to make up for not being in the right spot. He's still has really poor shot selection. He did actually hit a few midrange jumpers, which I didn't see at all last year. He might be a better option than Gray in the starting lineup, but it's far from clear.
by rexisourqb on
Oct 23, 2007 11:27 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Noah did have
I can't believe all this angst over something that may not happen and if it does happen no amount of whining will change it.
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 11:46 AM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
exactly
Everyone should calm down and give it a chance.
I'm not as down on this idea as I thought I would be.
People keep saying that he shouldn't start at the expense of Tyrus, Noah, and Smith...well who's to say that it IS at the expense of them? Maybe he beat them fair and square to deserve this lil mini try-out.
Give the kid a chance...if he stinks, then fine, sit him down...but he may surprise some people.
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 12:10 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I don't consider a handful of preseason games
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 12:52 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
i'm not only
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 2:14 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
but according to Skiles
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 2:15 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
true
like you said...this could just be one big head game by Skiles
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 2:25 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Here come the Kobe rumors again...
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 11:33 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
maybe we're holding out
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 12:54 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Aaron is good
You should be happy that we did pick Noah instead of
Spencer Hawes,like everyone was suggesting before draft.
by Azabullsfan on
Oct 23, 2007 11:51 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
not me
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:24 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Why oh why do I have a sinking feeling
We can't have the most athletic (and exciting) player on the team sitting the bench because he didn't earn his Skilescouts merit badges over the summer.
He has to play to improve, like he did last year.
I already have a headache.
by 1958ChiTown on
Oct 23, 2007 12:00 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
no kidding
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 12:05 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
nice find
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 12:54 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Tyrus has
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 12:41 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
The Bulls desperately need offense
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 12:14 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I refuse to anoint
Maybe the final preaseason games will give him a more controlled environment to better evaulate him. But even then it's a couple games.
The thing that's really bothering me about this thread is that it's not like he's even playing that well. He's just playing enough to prove possibly competent.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 12:57 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I agree
Lets be glad it may look like Gray can play a little but saying he has offense skill in NBA based on preseason is more then a little premature
by NY Chicago Fan on
Oct 23, 2007 1:02 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
He's doing
by Option27 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:05 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Skiles' biggest weakness as a coach . .
by Big D on
Oct 23, 2007 12:16 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Being
He should be given a chance just like anyone else...I dont see the big deal with trying him out starting the games and have Tyrus, Smith, Noah finish the games!
by tyrus4prez on
Oct 23, 2007 12:25 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Gray is a 7-footer
by Big D on
Oct 23, 2007 12:28 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
He can play.
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:31 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
His main sin seems to be that he was a senior...
When you look at any scouting report or statistical breakdown, Gray was at least as good as Hawes. Hollinger and some other people put him ahead of Hawes.
by rexisourqb on
Oct 23, 2007 12:37 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
He was also fairly chunky which he lost before the
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 12:40 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Which is especially interesting
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 1:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
It can happen
by Freethefro on
Oct 23, 2007 1:30 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Scratch that
by Freethefro on
Oct 23, 2007 1:36 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Each team has its own needs
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 12:26 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I have no quibble with the contention that Gray
by 1958ChiTown on
Oct 23, 2007 12:42 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Tyrus came into
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 12:50 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
*starting*
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 12:50 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Since none of our forwards have stood out on
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 12:58 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I disagree on all points
- I am not in favor of using the start of this season as yet another tryout period.
- Tyrus' defense is valuable as a Bull because he can force turnovers and initate (and contribute) to a fast-paced offense, which masks the Bulls deficiencies on that end.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:02 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
YES
I'm not arguing that Gray wasn't a good 2nd round pick. I just think that the skills of Thomas and hopefully Thabo/Noah are the ones that could push Bulls core (kirk,BenG,Deng,BenW,Noc) into dominate team in East, not Gray
by NY Chicago Fan on
Oct 23, 2007 1:09 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I agree that over the course of a game Tyrus will
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 1:12 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
how about this
Aaron Gray has to be pretty impressive to draw the attention necessary to get everyone open shots, not to mention I'm skeptical of the underlying theory of 'getting shooters easy shots to get into rhythm', but that's a seperate topic.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:16 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Is Tyrus a better offensive rebounder than Gray?
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 1:21 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
well that's a fundamental disagreement
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:28 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
In my opinion, if Tyrus is insolent or rebellious,
by 1958ChiTown on
Oct 23, 2007 2:03 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Then Tyrus
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
and the team will lose
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 2:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
You don 't know that..
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:24 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
only time Gray should be in mix
All that said, the only time I would think Gray should be inline for mins is when Bulls go against a BIG center so not to tire Wallace down so much in 1st half of games and reg season in general. But other then Shaq, Ming, maybe Zydrunas how many BIG centers are there
The majority of time I think Bulls are better off going young and athletic with Thomas/Noah or 3pt shooting with Noc so they can play uptempo game. I remember seeing something about Skiles saying Bulls might add some full court pressure, it would seem thats due to Thomas/Noah playing at PF with Wallace and not Gray at C.
Overall I would wait to make judgements until Bulls play a few games, although I do hope 1)Bulls get off to better start and 2)Thomas does become productive part of rotation as Bulls should be contending for East and not still finding their way
by NY Chicago Fan on
Oct 23, 2007 12:27 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Don't forget, Gray is a C, not a PF
Again, I haven't seen the games, but if Gray can be effective as an interior scorer and he and Wallace play well together, there is nothing wrong with banging the ball inside at the beginning of games, and then sliding Ben over to center and playing 35 minutes of hell with TT and Noah flying all over the place the rest of the game.
Put another way, if Gray is going to get ~13 minutes a game (which presumably only happens if he has earned the burn), it is not crazy to front load those minutes if it allows the starters to find their rhythm and avoids putting him in crunch-time situations.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 12:56 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
why not 48 minutes of hell?
And how do the other starters need to 'find a rhythm' yet Aaron Gray will come out blazin'?
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:01 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Because he has a post game (maybe).
by philosoball on
Oct 23, 2007 1:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm sure Aaron Gray
My dream is to play your best players. It's not like Gray's proven to even be as good as Eddy Curry, and that magical '04-'05 offense wasn't any good either, even with his early scoring. (To be fair Gordon/Deng/Hinrich weren't as good as they are now).
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:14 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No it doesn't
But I think I addressed this below, so I won't repeat myself.
http://www.blogabull.com/comments/2007/10/23/03942/991/128/post#here
It does remind me of how Skiles used Eddy. Dump it in early, open up the perimeter, employ motion offense. This is a variation of that theory, but with a lesser post player and a much better surrounding team.
For the record, I am not sanguine that Gray can handle this role, but if he is able to get a few interior buckets at the very beginning of games, using him that way might actually work.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 3:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
OK
Skiles may think that. I find it to be a flimsy premise, and especially flimsy with Aaron Gray who's not even close to as good as Eddy Curry was in that role.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 3:23 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'll add that
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 3:27 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I do hear you
http://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/CHI/1996.html
Who were the five best players on that team? Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Kukoc, Harper. Who started? Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Longley, Harper.
Why? That Bulls team liked to dump it into Longley at the beginning of the game, another big-bodied 7 footer who had a few post moves, but was nothing special. They wanted to create some easy early offense inside to loosen up the defense, even though Kukoc was clearly a superior player to Longley. Kukoc, in turn, was very effective coming off the bench, playing plenty of big minutes, and even winning sixth man of the year honors that season.
That doesn't make starting Longley a gimmick. Its about finding out how the pieces you have best fit together. And game strategy is definitely a part of that.
In any event, as the example above shows, it is at least POSSIBLE that starting a middling big to get some easy early buckets, in lieu of a non-interior though clearly superior player, can be successful.
Whether it will work out is another story.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 4:16 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
ok, deal
I'm not an expert on the glory days, but I think Toni and Luc weren't really comperable in terms of position.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 4:20 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
No they weren't
But Gray, like Luc, is a pure 5. To start Gray, you slide Big Ben to where Rodman used to play, and there you go, very similar to the 95-96 team (but this team is probably weaker at every position except possibly the 1 and the 4). The difference is that you do have TT and Noah, who are at least interior players, whereas Kukoc was not.
In any event, while not a perfect analogy in every way, my example was a rebuttal to the "put in your 5 best guys and let them play" argument. My point is simply that such an approach is not always the clear-cut best way to go.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 4:40 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
best way to go
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 4:44 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Kukoc had to come
And nothing about Longley's offense was easy. It was simply predictable.
by Scotter on
Oct 23, 2007 4:49 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Gray vs Diop
And for TT it will be clear,that he's not guaranteed for the starter position.And he needs to work harder,even if he's most athletic guy.It's like marines slogan:"Earned,never given.":-)
by Azabullsfan on
Oct 23, 2007 1:24 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
you mean it's not
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:26 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
1 productive NBA season
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 1:27 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
too slow
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 1:29 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Or in Joe Smith's case,
by Big D on
Oct 23, 2007 1:39 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Also
Again, even if Gray still proves competent, to me that shows nothing. He'd have to excel, dramatically. And he's not that good, so I don't see that happening.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 1:30 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
TT,Gray,Noah,Smith
understand what Skiles is saying...It's just a TRY.Why not?
by Azabullsfan on
Oct 23, 2007 1:58 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Apropo of nothing,
We now read, courtesy of Tim, that Aaron Gray led the nation in rebounding (14.1 reb/40min).
Also courtesy of Tim's research, we know AG (ha!) led the nation (among centers) in assists.
I'll take rebounding and assists over back flips.
I've already gone on record with my preference for starting Thomas, but jeeze, Matt, put the knives away!
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 1:36 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I can't believe no one has made this point yet!
Holy shit!
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 1:51 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
So what makes
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:04 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I'm not a total cliche
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 2:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
:rolls eyes:
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:26 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Snark aside
The Bulls do like to dump it inside the first few possessions. Presumably, Skiles likes to do this because he thinks that easy inside buckets early on can help the team develop a rhythm and soften up the opposing D, which then helps the perimeter players thrive.
Ideally, and hopefully at some point, the Bulls will be able to feed TT or Noah in the post to start a game and have that be productive. In the meantime, if Gray is going to see limited minutes anyway, and if his big skill is post scoring, it is not crazy to suggest using that post scoring ability at the beginning of games when you think it will help the rest of the team.
Saying that you should always start your five best players, no matter how they fit into a game plan, or how they play with each other, is, in my opinion, a poor strategy. Starting is not a big deal. Just ask Ginobili.
by preverbal on
Oct 23, 2007 2:52 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
a poor strategy?
If you didn't, there would be no reason to have a distinction between "starters" and "bench".
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 3:00 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I hope that Gray is a great basketball player.
By contrast, Tyrus is somewhat iconoclastic and insolent, an attitude that Skiles has historically shown little tolerance for, even where it is accompanied by great talent.
I don't think personnel decisions should be a product of personal ideologies or an object lesson in character development.
Maybe I am worried about nothing, though. TT very well may get the majority of minutes.
by 1958ChiTown on
Oct 23, 2007 2:34 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think you go a bit far
But I do get your point. I don't completely trust Skiles either. I think he should see that if he could take an obviously problematic player like Thomas and turn him into an all-star, he'd win a lot of respect from peers and players around the league--even Kidd might be forced to grudgingly acknowledge that Skiles had grown as a coach.
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 3:32 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
If he had used CAPITALS
by Freethefro on
Oct 23, 2007 1:55 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
holy blogabull
(a) the serious notion floated by Skiles that might start Gray; and
(b) reference to both live and dead Mikan <<<cringes with memories of Mikan drills in high school>>>
I have not seen one second of preseason play, but it sounds like there are two motivations here: 1) light a fire under Tyrus and Noah; 2) Gray may be filling the role that Michael Sweetney should have filled last year, namely, to play about 5-10 minutes to get a couple easy post buckets to get some momentum going and to open the floor for the jumpshooters.
I am also willing to accept a third possibility from reading about preseason games, summer play, and Gray's weight loss: he may actually be that good.
by GWKD on
Oct 23, 2007 1:56 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Gray is Way better then Switney(so glad hes gone)
:-)
by Azabullsfan on
Oct 23, 2007 2:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Lots of centers
by Option27 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:13 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
But we don't have "lots of centers"
by Azabullsfan on
Oct 23, 2007 2:28 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Skiles is going
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 2:42 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Ok if you haven't watched the preseason
Im sorry all I could think was if Noah and Tyrus play like this during the reg they will see alot of bench.
Also I thought Gray has shown that he can score rebound and play D better than Noah and Tyrus. Atleast in the preseason. So whats the bg deal?
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 3:48 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
preseason games don't count.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 3:51 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
can't we all just...
I don't think it's as bad as Matt is putting it and it's not as good as JoJo is putting it...it's definitely somewhere in between
I don't think that Gray is a "legitimate" starter (whatever that means) but at the same time I don't think he deserves to be the 12th man either (that's Viktor's job).
We might all change our minds after tonight's game...whether for the good or the bad.
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 3:51 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
We need opening night! One week to go!
by chgobr on
Oct 23, 2007 3:52 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Yep, it's time for the season to start!
by Tim S. on
Oct 23, 2007 4:04 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
yeah, rooting for 'stories' is real exciting
by hscs on
Oct 23, 2007 4:06 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
can't be anymore
by ScottieCartwright on
Oct 23, 2007 4:12 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I look forward to joejoe's report
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 4:16 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Do you think
I love all this debate. I've seen Aaron Gray play once in my life on TV when he was in college. All this chatter just makes me want to move so I can get satellite TV.
by KT on
Oct 23, 2007 4:24 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
starting vs. bench
I've watched the last two preseason games and Gray looked head and shoulders above Thomas and Noah on the offensive end. Do I think that means he should play more than Thomas? No. But he can definitely start, give us a few minutes, set the tone and be a threat to score to open up the jump shooters. Will he get double teamed? No, but Big Ben and TT can't even dribble the ball in the post effectively enough to even give the mirage that they might try to score. Plus Gray can hit the jumper that PJ Brown used to hit.
Meanwhile, Thomas can come off the bench, play more minutes than Gray and get teamed up with guys like Nocioni and Joe Smith who have offensive capabilities and allow TT to do what he does best, grab boards, disrupt on defense and dunk the ball. Not shoot jumpers like he'd be forced to do while on the floor with Ben.
If Gray can't cut it and Joe Smith heals quickly, throw him in their but I just am not in favor of TT and Big Ben playing extended minutes together at all. Obviously you can't bench Wallace so that means Thomas can't start IMO.
by JSlakov on
Oct 23, 2007 4:10 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
evidence suggests
Besides, I don't think Gray's good enough where any complementary benefit he recieves makes a difference when discussing playing him over a superior individual player.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 4:14 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
stats
Now all this is based on the theory that Gray can stay on the floor on the defensive end. It depends on who we're playing against obviously if we were playing the Suns it would be a different story. But if Gray can hold his own in the low post and allow Wallace to come over and help if the guy is actually a scoring threat (in the East, Curry, Howard, Bogut, come to mind) then I don't see him being too much of a deficiency. If the other team goes small, by all means, go small with them.
But we supposedly have one of the best defensive big men of all time and I'd like to hope he can cover up for Gray enough to make the pros of him playing even out the cons.
by JSlakov on
Oct 23, 2007 4:47 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
actually (sadly?)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on
Oct 23, 2007 4:50 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
All say it again, last season
by Scotter on
Oct 23, 2007 5:14 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
I think you're too young yet,
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 4:22 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Sorry, I missed the thread.
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 4:24 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
did you see this from KC's blog?
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 4:32 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
This better be a Skiles mind game.
by Scotter on
Oct 23, 2007 4:44 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
I'll tell you what's
by alec on
Oct 23, 2007 5:00 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
oh it
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 5:02 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Watch Gray will have the worst game of his life
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on
Oct 23, 2007 5:02 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Doesn't matter if
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 5:07 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Please, Sue! Don't be ignorant.
I'm sorry you have an irrational disgust for Tyrus Thomas and a weird love for the lumbering nice-guy, but don't put words in people's mouths, especially when it's contradictory to what they've already said.
by tyger1147 on
Oct 23, 2007 7:10 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
Get off your
The only reason I said what you are responding to is that most of the people in here are over reacting to what may never happen.
by sue369 on
Oct 23, 2007 7:31 PM CDT
up
reply
actions
0 recs
169 comments?
by nas on
Oct 23, 2007 7:38 PM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs
Mastrole
(bears fans should remember the reference to a preseason savior who outplayed a starter, briefly became a local hero, and was cut before the season)
by GWKD on
Oct 24, 2007 9:58 AM CDT
reply
actions
0 recs














