One Last Stab at the Duhon Effect: It's Not Just Kirk
[From the Diaries. Hopefully this turns out to be a kind of eulogy ;-) -Matt]
The Duhon Effect is something often discussed here at Blog-a-Bull, but it's worth discussing again. With it's end in sight, I thought I'd get in one last diary while it's still relevant. I know the Kirk stuff is largely old news here, but I decided to include it because of how it relates to Thabo.
If you just look at Duhon the player. He's a starting caliber PG for a half dozen teams that play high usage wing players. He's one of the best defensive PGs in the entire league. He shoots 3s well enough to be an effective spot up shooter. And his turnovers are manageable. He'd be perfect for Cleveland, Atlanta, or the Lakers. However, watch enough Bulls games over the last couple of years and many people, myself included, get the impression that Duhon has a negative impact. While finding that negative impact in his own numbers is hard, I discovered this summer that his negative impact shows up in other players' stat sheets. He drags other people down, specifically Kirk Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha.
The biggest issue is Duhon's negative effect on Hinrich's play. In 05/06, Kirk's PER dropped 2.5 points from 18.1 to 15.6 when Kirk when playing with Duhon. In 06/07, Kirk's PER dropped 3.5 points from 19.9 to 16.4 when playing with Duhon. That's the difference between being tied for 5th best PER with Chauncey Billups among PGs and being tied for 14th best with Mo Williams. When Kirk played SG with Duhon on the floor his effective FG% dropped 7%, he had 2 less assists/40 min, and 1 less reb/40 min. So not only are the Bulls trading Ben Gordon for Chris Duhon offensively, but they're getting less offense from Kirk Hinrich. In contrast, Sefolosha didn't force Hinrich to SG and didn't have a negative effect on Hinrich. With Sefolosha, Hinrich had the same increase of 1 FGA, 1 FTA, and 0.5 steals/40 min, but didn't have the significant drop in FG%, rebounding, or assists so he averaged 2.5 more points/40 min with Thabo than with Duhon. Sefolosha was also able to match Duhon's production, without negative effects on Hinrich. As I've said before, there is no reason to play Duhon and Hinrich together this season. So far this season, Skiles has kept them apart so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
The one player who suffered more than Kirk from playing with Duhon was Thabo Sefolosha. Thabo played 391 minutes with Duhon on the floor, nearly 1/2 his total minutes. During the year, I was frustrated whenever Skiles put them on the floor together. Playing two reluctant shooters at the guard position is a recipe for disaster, and Skiles failed to give Thabo the opportunity to succeed whenever he played them together. Today I noticed just how stark the negative impact on Thabo was when looking through the Bulls' Player Pairs data at 82games.com. When playing with Duhon, Thabo shot 33.6% and had 3.8 TO/40 min. Awful doesn't even begin to describe those numbers. But when Duhon wasn't on the court, Thabo had a very solid 50.3 FG% and 1.8 TO/40 min. Which is the real Thabo? Even before seeing these numbers, I've always believed in the latter successful Thabo. The one I saw knocking down 3s in the playoffs against Miami. I thought he was simply misused by Skiles last year. These numbers only confirm it for me. Thabo is a natural role player willing to sacrifice for his teammates, which is all the Bulls need him to be. But to be an effective role player, you have to play with really good players. What good would Bruce Bowen be on a bad team? His entire career before San Antonio answers that question. Thabo was drafted to play with Kirk Hinrich and Ben Gordon, not Chris Duhon, and that's how he should largely be judged.
Chris Duhon can be effective playing backup PG to Hinrich and playing with Ben Gordon, who suffers no ill effectives from playing with Duhon. He's a solid player on the wrong team, who unfortunately doesn't have enough trade value to bring anything Paxson wants in return. But, the idea of Sefolosha being able to kick Duhon out of the rotation looks a lot more promising. And the chance to finally see Kirk Hinrich's true value as a PG looks like a near guarantee for now. While the Duhon effect is less noticable elsewhere, Duhon nearly doubles Ben Wallace's turnovers. I was hoping for a Duhon trade this summer to put an end to the Duhon Effect, but that end may come with him still on the team.
Player Pair data for the Chicago Bulls and the other stats I used are available at 82games.com:
http://www.82games.com/0607/0607CHIP.HTM
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At this point, trading Du would probably be a good thing. Why the Lakers don't get realistic and try to pair him with Gordon and others in a trade is beyond me.
The problem, as I see it, is how do the Bulls use both Thabo and Du as backups without them being on the floor at the same time? Playing Du with Ben and Deng/Noce is a start but do we really see Skiles sitting him a whole bunch? I have to think, given history, that Du is the first guard off the bench. Anything before Griffin, but I would probably like to see what Thabo brings. Especially without Du.
I wish 82games had a section
Thabo
What a fantasic post!!!
The only non statistical point I would like to make is that Du is a great pure backup point guard. Believe me, when necessary you don't want Gordon full time at the point. You don't want Barrett to have to play real minutes. I hav'nt seen Thabo that Pippen like that he could handle the point full time if Kirk went down. That would be the only reason to keep Du.
true, SBulls9030 brings it
(Ok, I do say 'duh sux' alot.)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 18, 2007 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions
No Matt, your comments are great, its just the
Matt, you are a nice backup...
by bullsfaninbigapple on Oct 19, 2007 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Great Post
Du will lead them to 25 wins
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 18, 2007 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Duhon's only a good fit in LA if he's playing with
But...
To add a few more statistics
Thabo's TS% is 45.1% with Duh and 53.7% without Duh, slightly higher than Duhon's 52.9%.
Thabo's USG-r is 17.6 with Duh, 14.8 without, and Duhon's is 15.2.
So Thabo last year used basically the same amount of possessions and turned the ball over a little less and shot slightly better.
Forward to KC?
Awesome post.
Maybe if KC
http://ballhype.com:80/story/one_last_stab_at_the_duhon_effect_it_s_not_just_kirk/
no point.
And what?- trade Duhon and have our backup PG being Barnett? or Curry? Then we'll complain about them.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 19, 2007 5:21 AM CDT reply actions
aren't many backup PGs that are better than Duhon
Now I'm not a Du lover, but I do recall him coming into many games at P and directing the team, allowing Kirk AND BG to sit and rest - yet not lose momentum and then rain some 3's to keep it all going forward...
But to trade Du leaving Barnett or Curry as B/U?
WTF?
Thabo is solid and will get better...
But he's NOT a leader, at least not yet.
My point is that although Du has indeed had blunders - he has also indeed had many times where I for one was GLAD he was there...especially in those games where neither Hinrich NOR Gordon could hit the broad side of the United Center.
I'm just sayin...
plus he's always good
Duhon? Duhon?
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 19, 2007 7:57 AM CDT reply actions
nice post
and what about the frontline?
Perhaps Hinrich and Sefolosha should start with
Of course with all the big men we suddenly have there is also the Deng at SG experiment. Unfortunately, if Deng spends significant time at SG that leaves little time for Sefolosha.
But if Deng works out at SG, I wouldn't mind seeing Hinrich and Deng as the starting guards with Duhon and Gordon coming off the bench. The future of the Bulls rests on the development of Thomas and Noah, and perhaps even Gray, more so than Sefolosha. There just aren't enough minutes for everyone on this team!
And we haven't even mentioned Griffin, Gardner, and Curry!
Worth keeping in mind
You know, the kind that Pax is so good at but also means he has no balls :)
by Old Skool Sloan on Oct 19, 2007 9:47 AM CDT reply actions
Another hilarious post by Matt!!!!!!
by GranvilleWaiters on Oct 19, 2007 9:47 AM CDT reply actions
for once: stop being a shithead.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 19, 2007 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions
unnaturally boisterous opinions
Now this IS a funny post Matt! :-)
Starting is not a function of being good
And if your going to quote his career FG% at me, at least know what it means. 1/2 his shots are 3-pointers where he makes a respectable 36% of them. Which means his actual career effective FG% is 48%.
Duhon Effect
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 19, 2007 11:31 AM CDT reply actions
Thanks
Duhon is a jerk in person.....
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 19, 2007 12:42 PM CDT reply actions
He is just kind of a liability
The Bulls
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/thomas_sefolosha_071019.html

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