One Last Stab at the Duhon Effect: It's Not Just Kirk
[From the Diaries. Hopefully this turns out to be a kind of eulogy ;-) -Matt]
The Duhon Effect is something often discussed here at Blog-a-Bull, but it's worth discussing again. With it's end in sight, I thought I'd get in one last diary while it's still relevant. I know the Kirk stuff is largely old news here, but I decided to include it because of how it relates to Thabo.
If you just look at Duhon the player. He's a starting caliber PG for a half dozen teams that play high usage wing players. He's one of the best defensive PGs in the entire league. He shoots 3s well enough to be an effective spot up shooter. And his turnovers are manageable. He'd be perfect for Cleveland, Atlanta, or the Lakers. However, watch enough Bulls games over the last couple of years and many people, myself included, get the impression that Duhon has a negative impact. While finding that negative impact in his own numbers is hard, I discovered this summer that his negative impact shows up in other players' stat sheets. He drags other people down, specifically Kirk Hinrich and Thabo Sefolosha.
The biggest issue is Duhon's negative effect on Hinrich's play. In 05/06, Kirk's PER dropped 2.5 points from 18.1 to 15.6 when Kirk when playing with Duhon. In 06/07, Kirk's PER dropped 3.5 points from 19.9 to 16.4 when playing with Duhon. That's the difference between being tied for 5th best PER with Chauncey Billups among PGs and being tied for 14th best with Mo Williams. When Kirk played SG with Duhon on the floor his effective FG% dropped 7%, he had 2 less assists/40 min, and 1 less reb/40 min. So not only are the Bulls trading Ben Gordon for Chris Duhon offensively, but they're getting less offense from Kirk Hinrich. In contrast, Sefolosha didn't force Hinrich to SG and didn't have a negative effect on Hinrich. With Sefolosha, Hinrich had the same increase of 1 FGA, 1 FTA, and 0.5 steals/40 min, but didn't have the significant drop in FG%, rebounding, or assists so he averaged 2.5 more points/40 min with Thabo than with Duhon. Sefolosha was also able to match Duhon's production, without negative effects on Hinrich. As I've said before, there is no reason to play Duhon and Hinrich together this season. So far this season, Skiles has kept them apart so I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
The one player who suffered more than Kirk from playing with Duhon was Thabo Sefolosha. Thabo played 391 minutes with Duhon on the floor, nearly 1/2 his total minutes. During the year, I was frustrated whenever Skiles put them on the floor together. Playing two reluctant shooters at the guard position is a recipe for disaster, and Skiles failed to give Thabo the opportunity to succeed whenever he played them together. Today I noticed just how stark the negative impact on Thabo was when looking through the Bulls' Player Pairs data at 82games.com. When playing with Duhon, Thabo shot 33.6% and had 3.8 TO/40 min. Awful doesn't even begin to describe those numbers. But when Duhon wasn't on the court, Thabo had a very solid 50.3 FG% and 1.8 TO/40 min. Which is the real Thabo? Even before seeing these numbers, I've always believed in the latter successful Thabo. The one I saw knocking down 3s in the playoffs against Miami. I thought he was simply misused by Skiles last year. These numbers only confirm it for me. Thabo is a natural role player willing to sacrifice for his teammates, which is all the Bulls need him to be. But to be an effective role player, you have to play with really good players. What good would Bruce Bowen be on a bad team? His entire career before San Antonio answers that question. Thabo was drafted to play with Kirk Hinrich and Ben Gordon, not Chris Duhon, and that's how he should largely be judged.
Chris Duhon can be effective playing backup PG to Hinrich and playing with Ben Gordon, who suffers no ill effectives from playing with Duhon. He's a solid player on the wrong team, who unfortunately doesn't have enough trade value to bring anything Paxson wants in return. But, the idea of Sefolosha being able to kick Duhon out of the rotation looks a lot more promising. And the chance to finally see Kirk Hinrich's true value as a PG looks like a near guarantee for now. While the Duhon effect is less noticable elsewhere, Duhon nearly doubles Ben Wallace's turnovers. I was hoping for a Duhon trade this summer to put an end to the Duhon Effect, but that end may come with him still on the team.
Player Pair data for the Chicago Bulls and the other stats I used are available at 82games.com:
http://www.82games.com/0607/0607CHIP.HTM
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53 comments
Comments
that
At this point, trading Du would probably be a good thing. Why the Lakers don't get realistic and try to pair him with Gordon and others in a trade is beyond me.
The problem, as I see it, is how do the Bulls use both Thabo and Du as backups without them being on the floor at the same time? Playing Du with Ben and Deng/Noce is a start but do we really see Skiles sitting him a whole bunch? I have to think, given history, that Du is the first guard off the bench. Anything before Griffin, but I would probably like to see what Thabo brings. Especially without Du.
by CookDing on Oct 18, 2007 2:51 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
I wish 82games had a section
by hscs on Oct 18, 2007 4:14 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thabo
by Sambossanova on Oct 18, 2007 4:31 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
What a fantasic post!!!
The only non statistical point I would like to make is that Du is a great pure backup point guard. Believe me, when necessary you don't want Gordon full time at the point. You don't want Barrett to have to play real minutes. I hav'nt seen Thabo that Pippen like that he could handle the point full time if Kirk went down. That would be the only reason to keep Du.
by joemoses on Oct 18, 2007 4:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
true, SBulls9030 brings it
(Ok, I do say 'duh sux' alot.)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 18, 2007 4:47 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
No Matt, your comments are great, its just the
by joemoses on Oct 18, 2007 4:57 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Matt, you are a nice backup...
by bullsfaninbigapple on Oct 19, 2007 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Great Post
by tyrus4prez on Oct 18, 2007 4:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Du will lead them to 25 wins
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 18, 2007 4:49 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duhon's only a good fit in LA if he's playing with
by Scotter on Oct 18, 2007 5:10 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
But...
by Wade.Jones on Oct 18, 2007 5:48 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
To add a few more statistics
Thabo's TS% is 45.1% with Duh and 53.7% without Duh, slightly higher than Duhon's 52.9%.
Thabo's USG-r is 17.6 with Duh, 14.8 without, and Duhon's is 15.2.
So Thabo last year used basically the same amount of possessions and turned the ball over a little less and shot slightly better.
by Scotter on Oct 18, 2007 5:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
thanks sbulls
by bullshooter on Oct 18, 2007 5:55 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Forward to KC?
Awesome post.
by CubFan81 on Oct 18, 2007 9:36 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Maybe if KC
http://ballhype.com:80/story/one_last_stab_at_the_duhon_effect_it_s_not_just_kirk/
by sue369 on Oct 19, 2007 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
no point.
And what?- trade Duhon and have our backup PG being Barnett? or Curry? Then we'll complain about them.
by chicago-homesick-blues on Oct 19, 2007 5:21 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
aren't many backup PGs that are better than Duhon
Now I'm not a Du lover, but I do recall him coming into many games at P and directing the team, allowing Kirk AND BG to sit and rest - yet not lose momentum and then rain some 3's to keep it all going forward...
But to trade Du leaving Barnett or Curry as B/U?
WTF?
Thabo is solid and will get better...
But he's NOT a leader, at least not yet.
My point is that although Du has indeed had blunders - he has also indeed had many times where I for one was GLAD he was there...especially in those games where neither Hinrich NOR Gordon could hit the broad side of the United Center.
I'm just sayin...
by Bluelou on Oct 19, 2007 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
plus he's always good
by milesgmsu on Oct 22, 2007 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duhon? Duhon?
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 19, 2007 7:57 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
nice post
and what about the frontline?
by milesgmsu on Oct 19, 2007 9:13 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Perhaps Hinrich and Sefolosha should start with
Of course with all the big men we suddenly have there is also the Deng at SG experiment. Unfortunately, if Deng spends significant time at SG that leaves little time for Sefolosha.
But if Deng works out at SG, I wouldn't mind seeing Hinrich and Deng as the starting guards with Duhon and Gordon coming off the bench. The future of the Bulls rests on the development of Thomas and Noah, and perhaps even Gray, more so than Sefolosha. There just aren't enough minutes for everyone on this team!
And we haven't even mentioned Griffin, Gardner, and Curry!
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 9:35 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Hinrich and Sefolosha should start
Which is unfortunate - I seem to remember a VERY good Toni Kukoc doing that an being fine with it, and earning a LOT of credibility in the process.
by Bluelou on Oct 19, 2007 11:28 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
toni started 1/2 his games as a bull
by hscs on Oct 19, 2007 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
If you wanna flame...bring it on but have a clue
But this is what you get from someone who relies on stats for his ammo...
Stats say that Kukoc started 50% of his games as a Bull...
But stats DON'T indicate the reality of the reasoning of that and why: It only happened when MJ wasn't there for the first two years, and then when Pip or Rodman were injured after MJ's return.
And then he provided EXCELLENT work from the bench...night after night after night.
by Bluelou on Oct 19, 2007 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Because it was a team thing and not ego
And Kukoc would rather be a great player off the bench for the Bulls than a good player on a team that wouldn't win it all.
by Bluelou on Oct 19, 2007 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
huh?
by hscs on Oct 19, 2007 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Is Gordon the most efficient scorer?
If Gordon is so vital, why is he always the first person mentioned in any trade? I think he is overvalued by the league because of his scoring. But Detroit exposed his weak defense last year in the playoffs, and as long as he is vital to the Bulls' offense the Bulls are in trouble when they play the best teams in the league.
I agree that we need more offense, but that means that we either need to trade for more offense, or we need to see whether Noah and Thomas can step it up, and whether Deng can take it to another level. Gordon is a great, great bench player, often able to light it up on a moment's notice, and, I judge, a liability as a starter.
But, all that being said, I agree that he probably will start at the beginning of the year unless and until Deng really takes over the SG position and the big men show that they can score. If nothing else, the Bulls may want to showcase Gordon as trade bait. And they can cover for his defense in the regular season. But if the playoffs come around and Gordon is still starting and playing 35 minutes a game, I'll be worried.
Of course, I suppose it is possible that Gordon will cut down his turnovers and improve his assists and rebounds and steals and be a more consistent and efficient scorer. He is a hard worker, I'll give him that. But I would rather plan to trade him and hope for improvement from Deng, Thomas, and Noah.
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
take a trip to the blogabull archives
Deng is never going to play significant minutes at shooting guard. Yeesh, this is worse than Sene and Frye longing put together.
by hscs on Oct 19, 2007 12:54 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yep, I'm not the first one to worry about Gordon.
You may be right about Deng at SG. And you are right that the Bulls need scoring. But either Gordon has to improve his all-around play, or they need to find an alternative way to score, either by trade or by improvement of the other players they have.
And again, getting back to Duhon, starting Hinrich and Gordon almost assures that Duhon will not play many minutes with Gordon, the only guard who does not suffer from being out there with him. Maybe they can substitute Duhon for Hinrich while keeping Gordon in, then double-substitute Hinrich for Duhon and Sefolosha for Gordon, then substitute Gordon for Sefolosha. But if they have to start Gordon, it will be an interesting dance keeping Duhon away from Hinrich and Sefolosha.
Of course, I suppose they could start Duhon with Gordon. But then the fans would riot.
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
It's not that hard of a rotation
But, it would be easier to just play Sefolosha at both backup spots.
Skiles and Paxson have had nothing, but praise so far for Gordon this season. And as Gordon improves at playing PG when Hinrich is out then Gordon won't be one dimensional. And Hinrich and Gordon will play less minutes together, minimizing defense issues even farther. They're alot of scorers around in the NBA, Gordon has become an efficient scorer without major shot selection issues that kind of player is alot rarer.
by Scotter on Oct 19, 2007 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Thanks for the response, and great post.
Maybe he can get quicker on defense by focusing on it more, or maybe not. I do hope he learns the point guard position, improving his assists and cutting down on his turnovers, but I'm not holding my breath. I agree that Gordon is an efficient scorer, but so far he isn't much else, and he can be streaky even in scoring.
I do think Gordon is an asset to the team, but I think that as a one-dimensional scorer he is overvalued by the league, even though I agree that he is an efficient scorer. Unless he gives the Bulls a significant home town discount, I doubt that he will be signed, and I would be worried if the Bulls signed him at his market value.
I'll be interested to see if Sefolosha is given the chance to play with someone other than Duhon, and if so whether he bears out your predictions. I'm not completely sold on him yet. But it would be great if Duhon really is the problem, and Sefolosha could get rid of those awful numbers you cite.
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
What would be an acceptable contract?
by Scotter on Oct 19, 2007 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
The question is
by sue369 on Oct 19, 2007 3:26 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
money money money money
by preverbal on Oct 19, 2007 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Yes, I think it would be too much.
I think Hinrich is a better player than Gordon, and I think Martin was better last year, at least, than either Hinrich or Gordon. So I don't think they should offer Gordon any more than they gave Hinrich ($47.5 million), and probably less.
On the other hand, if I were Gordon's agent I would recommend turning it down and testing free agency, since I think many teams would be willing to overpay for Gordon's scoring. And if they do, I think the Bulls should let him go, although they will have a year to see if he improves before making that decision.
Although I really think that if Gordon doesn't sign, the Bulls should trade Gordon for whatever they can get (along with the expiring contracts of Duhon and Khryapa), since they will likely lose him anyway, unless they are willing to overpay.
The Bulls have more than enough supporting players. What they need are superstars. I don't think Gordon is going to be a superstar. Maybe Deng, Thomas, and Noah won't be either, but they have a better chance of it than Gordon.
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Everything you're saying has a logic to it.
Not resigning Gordon and trading or letting him walk because the market over values his scoring is one way to look at the problem. Dave Berri of Wages of Wins would suggest that route. But, Dave Berri also suggested starting Chris Duhon with Kirk Hinrich after the Bulls let Gordon walk.
The market overvalues scoring, but it's still the market. Because of that, the Bulls got Kirk Hinrich at a discount compared to his production. Deng will also likely come at a discount. So in my mind those savings make up for paying a little extra to keep Gordon. Because everyone else who can score is also over valued. Martin set the market, and he set it alot lower than it could have been. 5 years 55 million seems like a pretty good deal for Gordon, and the Bulls financially.
by Scotter on Oct 19, 2007 4:41 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Are you saying that scoring guards don't come
by Tim S. on Oct 19, 2007 5:22 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
the main thing
How many teams in the league do you see that have their leading scorer come off the bench??
by ScottieCartwright on Oct 19, 2007 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Worth keeping in mind
You know, the kind that Pax is so good at but also means he has no balls :)
by Old Skool Sloan on Oct 19, 2007 9:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Another hilarious post by Matt!!!!!!
by GranvilleWaiters on Oct 19, 2007 9:47 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
for once: stop being a shithead.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 19, 2007 9:56 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
unnaturally boisterous opinions
Now this IS a funny post Matt! :-)
by Bluelou on Oct 19, 2007 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Starting is not a function of being good
And if your going to quote his career FG% at me, at least know what it means. 1/2 his shots are 3-pointers where he makes a respectable 36% of them. Which means his actual career effective FG% is 48%.
by Scotter on Oct 19, 2007 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions 0 recs
Duhon Effect
by RogersPark Kris on Oct 19, 2007 11:31 AM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Thanks
by sue369 on Oct 19, 2007 12:21 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
Duhon is a jerk in person.....
by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 19, 2007 12:42 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
He is just kind of a liability
by Option27 on Oct 19, 2007 2:00 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
i was at a bulls game last year
by Jbasic89 on Oct 19, 2007 3:06 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs
The Bulls
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/thomas_sefolosha_071019.html
by sue369 on Oct 19, 2007 4:01 PM CDT reply actions 0 recs

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