Blog a Bull: An SB Nation Community

Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Sports blogs for fans, by fans.
Around SBN: Spencer Hall's Sports Meme Power Rankings

Luol-post option (and other Bulls/Wiz preseason thoughts)

(I'll preface by saying that tonight's game was against an out-manned Wizards team, so it's tough to glean that much relevance)

Those who are seemingly to be hard-wired to yelp 'low post presence' when describing the Bulls don't fully get it. Mostly by overstating the 'need', but also by assuming that it has to be Pau Gasol, or some other 7-footer. Or even a player that does most of his damage in the post.

That's not the need. The symptom keeping the Bulls offense at a below-average efficiency is that unless they're in transition, they have to run their full offense to get a good shot. There's nothing wrong with doing that a majority of the time, but having an option to ditch their 'stuff' and just give it to somebody for a high-percentage look (or a quick double-team) is a nice failsafe to keep from having the notorious long scoring droughts while also keeping the turnovers down.

But how often is that really needed, a half-dozen possessions a game? The Bulls should ditch their whole up-tempo, ball-movement, player-movement scheme to acquire some lumbering oaf? Make a trade for someone just because they have a jump-hook? It's not like the Bulls don't have enough size or depth (and -hopefully- skill) in their frontcourt anymore.

I like instead what the plan seems to be: give Luol Deng a chance to be that guy.

And why not, look at couple of other elite teams in the conference:  Detroit posts up their guards and Prince. KG likes his game more as a high-post facilitator, so Paul Pierce is their best post player.  The Cavs have big Z, but it's not like they're running every play through him (if they indeed run plays in Cleveland). If the Bulls get Kobe Bryant, then he'll be that guy.

In the preseason so far, Luol's started out looking to post up. The results have been mixed, and we have no idea if or how effectively it'll work in the regular season, but at least it's looking like he's been working on it. And it's a better option then acquiring someone, unless we're talking about a major upgrade to the rotation.

Some of the fawning over Aaron Gray in the game thread comments were the genesis of that point. Nothing against Gray, but his low-post game isn't some 'missing dimension', because Gray won't be getting any meaningful minutes this season, and if he is we should all be frightened . The whole idea of needing this low-post presence is that it'll be needed against good teams when the 'normal' Bulls offense needs some help generating easy shots. So would you rather see Gray out there for the sake of having someone to post-up? Or instead trust one of your best players (and therefore on the court) in Luol Deng to attempt the same?

Some other thoughts from Tuesday's preseason game:

  • Besides the post-ups, Luol also tried to diversify by using the ball fake. Take that Mr. 'Luol has no trickery' Hollinger!
     
  • Noc is still gunning, a lot. He had a couple jumpers blocked as well, not a good sign. An even worse sign if he keeps it up when Gordon gets back.
     
  • The 2nd quarter was pretty abysmal offensively, with way too many near-violations of the shot clock. Not a big deal since there were some poor lineups out there, but it brought back bad memories of Bulls games past. And it featured a spectacularly-missed Ty Thomas fallaway jumper.

    (quick aside on Thomas: this has been suggested before, but he's also a low-post option. Teams just have to foul him when he catches the ball in the post: not because he'll make a great move, but because he'll jump over their heads. And in the theme of this post, the key is that he's on the team and on the court, so lets use him for the few posessions the offense needs it.)
     
  • Nice to see Noah blaze past former Bull Darius Songaila on one play. Ya know, seeing the difference between Bulls big-men past and present, hopefully.
     
  • I thought Kirk looked excellent in the 3rd quarter. I'll scoff at any mention of him not being enough of a 'true' point guard. Bob Cousy's dead, (he's not?!?!) teams need offense from their point guard, and especially the Bulls who regularly play one non-factor on offense as is. So if Hinrich wants to dribble right to a spot and take an uncontested jumper himself, go crazy.
     
  • I'm still not sold on the Deng(SG) and Noc(SF) lineup combination, but one thing Skiles' guard rotation has taught us so far is that it looks like Duhon is strictly relegated to being Hinrich's backup, and that's a good thing. So far we've seen Gardner and Deng at the two, and remember that Gordon, Sefolosha, and Griffin may also be ahead of Duhon on the two-guard depth chart. Perhaps tiny-ball is done forever.
     
  • We all got a first look at Joe Smith. His rebounding looked suspect, but even on a bad wheel he was more mobile than PJ Brown, and that's the key to any Bulls big.

Ok, so the Bulls played their starters more than the Wiz, but consider this: The Bulls outscored 'em 21-11 in the first quarter, and 36-21 in the third. The defense looked dominant. I'm very very excited to see this team in full, and thus am holding nightly vigils for the return of Ben Gordon.
 

0 recs  |  Comment 61 comments

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

the user comments are hilarious
especially this one:

"I too caught the game on Direct TV channel 640 but not until it was too late - 4th qtr. Was it me or were the Comcast Chicago announcers horrible? NOw Buckhantz and Chenier are homers as well but these guys were second rate."

by ScottieCartwright on Oct 17, 2007 8:41 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

my thoughts exactly
any preseason prediction not beginning with "Bulls Biggest Weakness: terrible announcers" should immediately be discredited.  
I particularly enjoyed the vigorous debate about whether or not the cellphone a 5-year-old fan was holding was real or fake... ..(kerr, incredulously: "No! that has to be fake). ..what a treat.  
Can we get Ron Santo or Keith Richards to announce!?!
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 17, 2007 9:04 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Do you think
Buss might not notice if we traded Thomas Gardner instead of Tyrus Thomas? Im just flustered with all the Kobe rumors Im sorry.
''This whole parties out of control!''-Moose

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 17, 2007 12:00 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Trade him a few of the LuvaBulls
Actually forget that.  They're probably too old for him.

by Big D on Oct 17, 2007 12:24 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I like cougars
''This whole parties out of control!''-Moose

by joejoeEnglish94bulls4ever on Oct 17, 2007 12:26 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i think the lakers old lady dance team
would be hotter than any of the luvabulls

joke 1B

any of the lakers old lady dance team (as in over 28....AOOOOOO)

by milesgmsu on Oct 17, 2007 9:27 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Great points and I am also encouraged
that it looks like I might actually get my wish list.  Tyrus starting and an end to the Duhon/Hinrich backcourt.  Now it's time for Gordon and Thabo to play.  It's time to see all the pieces on the floor.    

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 12:41 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Personally
I'm not yet sold on the prospect of Tyrus as a low-post option this year.  As mentioned in the post, that turnaround J was atrocious (and that's being kind).   I agree that he can posterize anybody (I'm looking at you Josh Smith), but his ball-handling still looks a bit suspect.  That, coupled with the lack of a jumper (I hope that he proves me wrong, but I haven't been overwhelmed by what I've seen thus far) has me a bit dubious on the prospects of Thomas serving as a low post option this year.  In my opinion, he's better attacking the basket on fast breaks, rebounds and cuts through the lane.
I agree on Gray too, he's not going to be a low-post option this year by any means.  He has been a very pleasant surprise so far but being a rookie (and not terribly atheletic) is not going to help him.  I will say, though, that I love that hook shot and he seems to have little trouble going to it.  If he keeps that up, he will be a solid pickup by Pax.
My favorite part about last night was the moment when I began to appreciate how put together this team is.  This is the first pre-season in a long time when I knew that the Bulls were going to be very good.  For me at least, every preseason since Jackson was in town has been very speculative-worrying about the fragile state of the team.  Last night, I saw a team that seemed to be humming.  Ben looked spry, Hinrich somehow looked much improved, Deng was wonderfully active (especially on the glass) and even Gardner looked like he was in synch.  Suddenly, the season is something that has me anxious in a positive way.  ...i can't wait for this season to play out.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 17, 2007 7:25 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

"perpetual thread
...commenting"
a few more thoughts...
Smith looked rusty pretty much all over (though not terrible) with the exception of his jump shot.  That J has plenty of range and it was great to seem him get it off with a man in his face.  Hopefully, that translates to the Bulls finally having a veteran Big man that can play a role in the offense.  It was great to see him and Darius on the court and think about how far the roster has come.  
The really great part about last night was the fact that Ben G was not playing.  I mean, I would have loved to see him out there but the team looking smooth without him was very encouraging.  It's like playing poker and knowing that you have the river card in your favor.  Once he's in the rotation, this team should really start clicking.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 17, 2007 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

i always like darius
but he does not fit the WSH offense which isnt predicated on moving the ball like ours is

and he was never the same after he blew out his (insert body part below the waist integral for on the court activities, and not off court...beat you to the truck sex remark option ;-)   )

by milesgmsu on Oct 17, 2007 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

That's the problem for Washington
The Washington offense is the Princeton offense and it is predicated on moving and sharing the ball.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

perpetual thread, cont.
With their leading scorer on the bench for the entire preseason so far, it's a little hard to draw significant conclusions about the team.  Add to that the specter of Kobe possibly having already cleared out his locker in L.A., the near-certainty that the Bulls represent the Lakers' only viable trading partner (with the lone exception of the widely discussed Dirk/Kobe swap), the speculation that TT will have to be included in any trade (the reasoning going that L.A. will require a "highlight reel" player as partial compensation), etc., etc.

You say, "This is the first pre-season in a long time when I knew that the Bulls were going to be very good.  For me at least, every preseason since Jackson was in town has been very speculative-worrying about the fragile state of the team."  

I think a lot of people feel the same way...including Paxson.  Given all the bizarre uncertainty surrounding the roster, the team the Bulls are putting out on the floor right now looks very promising.  It's hard to imagine Paxson blowing up the roster to the degree necessary to get Kobe.  He'd have to throw out the window everything he's spent the last three years building.  I don't see it from him.

by alec on Oct 17, 2007 10:19 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well
This time last year, The Bulls played a similar preseason game in San Antonio. I was like, "Is this how this year is going to be?!" They looked so crisp and promising. Then came that lackluster start to the season.

But to agree with ya, last night was really fun to watch. They looked like what we and most media writers envisioned when predicting them to take the East. Even Skiles was impressed an that says a lot.

by Option27 on Oct 17, 2007 10:07 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

The difference
and I know I didn't state it well in the original post, is that I believe the typical fan isn't looking at a good performance and asking whether or not that will hold true but rather, looking at a good performance as confirmation of what they already believe to be true.  I think a critical difference is that this year's team is one most fans expect to be good as opposed to previous year's that had the promise of being good.  For me at least, it is a very enjoyable difference.  Of course, it is the preseason....
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 17, 2007 10:36 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Deng's post-game?
So was he going to it a lot? Or was it just a few times. I'd love for him to go to it a lot this pre-season, and then go back to his old game of running around, posting up only the 4-6 times you mentioned, and Thomas, Noah, Smith, Gray, (maybe Hinrich) throwing in another half-dozen between them. The latter might be a stretch. The former would be awesome in my book.
Yes, of course.

by tyger1147 on Oct 17, 2007 9:02 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

The trend
so far is that Deng goes to the post to begin the game and only does it a handful of times (4-6 is about right).  But, he's only playing a tiny portion of the game.  I think he will go to it more than last season (especially considering Skiles' recent comments about reminding players to hit him when he's there).
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 17, 2007 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I wouldnt start Tyrus
if for no other reason than he has got to learn how to make a jumpshot to be a force in this league. Anything that allows Tyrus to understand that he needs to keep practicing HARD on his shooting is all to the good down the road as I see it.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 10:23 AM CDT reply actions   0 recs

He does not neet to make
jumpshots to be a force in this league.  Dunks, FTs, blocks, steals, and rebounds will do that just fine.  The jumpshot is icing on the cake.  Besides he went 2/5 against the Mavs.  That's the same percentage that P.J. and Malik shot last year.  Sometimes a carrot works better than the stick as well.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 11:46 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that Tyrus is already good
However, I think that Tyrus has the greatest potential of anyone on the bulls roster. THerefore, I would not be satisfied that his shooting is comparable to Malik and PJ. I am looking for him to be an ALLSTAR which would absolutely require a dependable jumpshot imho.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well he can't
perfect a jump shot sitting on the bench. I trust Skiles to know what he is doing.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 17, 2007 12:07 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well, I'm not suggesting that Tyrus not get a lot
of minutes this year. In fact I think getting Tyrus playing time may be the single greatest factor in the Bulls becoming a future Power,ie realistic chances for multiple Chips. However, his psychology seems to be a concern, fairly or not, and getting him to work hard on his weaknesses should  be done in any way possible, including making him a bench player which to my mind means you are not a complete basketball player even if you are the most talented. I also have a lot of confidence in Pax-Skiles so I wouldn't be surprised if they bench Tyrus until he has a decent shot.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Putting him on the bench is the wrong the move
The goal is to get Tyrus to concentrate on doing the things he does well and play within himself, so that he avoids turnovers and stupid mistakes.  Starting him not only clarifies and simplifies the entire rotation.  But, it clarifies and simplifies Tyrus's role.  It gives him direction, and doesn't put pressure on him to have to make an immediate impact to stay in the game.  

Also I don't see how it encourages Tyrus's work ethic if he's the best PF and still sitting on the bench.  Teaching a lesson that way is likely to siimply inspire rebellion.  He can always be benched if mistakes become a problem, and then it will have a clear connection to his play.  But alot of times it helps to show a little trust and faith.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 12:50 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Well said.
Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 17, 2007 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I agree that one of the goals is getting Tyrus to
avoid mistakes, which I don't think will be hastened by making him play against other teams best players neccesarily. I'm not sure how starting him would simplify the entire rotation either or his role.
Whether his reaction to coming off the bench is motivation or rebellion I'll leave to Skiles. I do have faith in Skiles to make these decisions, at least more than I trust us fans, but like I said before, Tyrus seems to be the least polished of the Bulls players at this point and yet the most talented. A difficult situation to say the least.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Thomas
"Least polished and most talented"
That's a good assessment of Thomas right now.

I heard them say they the coaches were not very pleased that he didn't spend his summer working out with them - which would DEFINATELY helped his cause for shooting better and maybe even starting.

These guys have their own choice in such matters - and it shows his lack of maturity to choose NOT to work to the best of his ability and "polish" his skills in the offseason.

Since drafting Noah and Pax stating right then that he could always use Noah for a trade....
Then Noah taking upon himself to work ALL SUMMER at the Bulls facility - is what got him where he is now as a (likely) keeper, a fan pleaser, and will also probably result in a lot of minutes this season.

Thomas should follow his example.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 17, 2007 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I thought the simplication was rather obvious
The rotation is simplified because starting either Noc, Noah, or Smith complicates it.  I'll assume the reasons for not starting Noc are obvious.  If Thomas is on the bench the either Thomas and Noah are duplicating skill sets or Thomas and Smith are both natural PFs on the bench together.  And Noah the natural backup center is in danger of early foul trouble, which would then preent him from backing up Wallace.  

If Thomas starts it provides an opportunity to take the most advantage of his good games.  It also creates a three clearly different options at backup PF for Skiles in Noc, Smith, and Noah.  If he wants to go small he can play Noc for a few minutes before sliding him over to backup Deng.  And Smith and Noah are both available and Skiles can decide which one to bring in 1st based on need.  Starting Thomas creates much more natural rotations that are alot easier to use effectively.

If Thomas starts he's the fourth option, instead of the third on offense.  There's much less pressure to create offensively, and he's free to focus on offensive rebounding and defense.  Also, athletic frontcourt players like Thomas are largely dependent on their guard play. He much better off playing with both Hinrich and Gordon on the floor than with Duhon.  Last year, Thomas shot 50% from the floor with either Gordon or Hinrich on the floor.  He shot 44.6% with Duhon on the floor and had 2 more FTA/48 min with Duhon, which is an indication he was having to create more offense by himself with Duhon on the floor.  Start him and simplify the game for him.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

While my answer was detailed,
the general principles involved are somewaht obvious.  Don't duplicate skill sets off the bench.  Playing with better players = create less on your own.  Maybe that would have been enough of answer.  But, I have thought through these specific issues pretty well and examined all of the statistical evidence.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Im not sure if the statistics you cite are enough
to overcome the, if you will, obvious perception that playing against other teams bench players makes for an easier time both on offense and defense. Im also sure that Skiles would like someone off the bench who could demand that Noc passes the ball to him. In any event my main thesis is that Tyrus is a project, but one of extreme importance to the bulls future success. Basically, Skiles needs to get this guy up to NBA speed as fast as possible. I would even suggest hiring a guru like Pippen(?) to work with this wunderkind.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He's a project that helps the Bulls win games
more than any of the alternatives.  So shouldn't he play?  The Bulls averaged 102.7 pts and gave up only 91.0 pts/48 min when Tyrus played with Hinrich, Gordon, Deng, and Wallace last season.  That was the team's 4th most used lineup last year, and also their most successful signficantly used lineup.

Thomas's strengths are on the defensive end, the team plays much better defensive when Thomas is on the floor.  Shouldn't he being using those strengths against the opposing team's best players?

I'm not saying that Tyrus isn't a project.  I'm arguing that he's a project that helps the Bulls win right now, more than anyone else they could play at that spot.  If he helps the team win shouldn't he be playing?  Can't he develop while playing?  Pippen struggled to make jumpshots even during the 1st championship, it didn't stop him from playing or developing or from getting to the basket.  What's going to be more meaningful playing time?  Playing against starters or coming off the bench and playing garbage time?

I believe if you want players to develop.  They need to play meaningful minutes with the best players and against the best players.  And while he's developing the Bulls will actually win more games.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 8:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Not to beat a dead hose but
we both agree that right now Tyrus is best at defense and needs work on offense. I am not opposed to Tyrus getting as many minutes as his play warrants, even if it means reducing Smith and Noah's time considerably. I am simply concerned that Tyrus will be less able to watch and learn how to play the game as a starter. The pressure of matching up against elite forwards every night could bring out the best in Tyrus but I worry that Tyrus should be learning the fundamentals of the game instead of relying on his freakish(ie awesome) athletic ability to get by. I think Skiles looked at BG in somewhat the same way for a few years, ie best shooter, needs to learn fundamentals = Coming off the bench.

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

needs to learn fundamentals=practice?
I just don't undertand the point of Tyrus coming off the bench.  Is starting just the ultimate prize?  Is Skiles suppossed to tell Tyrus that until he's fundamentally sound that he'll keep starting that old piece of crap even if it hurts the team?  Tyrus has to finish all his veggies before he gets dessert.  He's has some growing up to do, but he's not at his parents' dinner table either.  

And the Ben Gordon comparison doesn't hold alot of water with me.  1st, because Gordon should have been starting alot of that time, he was coming off the bench.  2nd, when Gordon really struggles offensively he hurts the team.  Tyrus can be struggling offensively and still be a net positive in the game.  And 3rd, it's easier for Gordon to develop off the bench.  He doesn't need anyone to pass him the ball.  

Unless you want Tyrus to play less fundamentally, he needs players that will pass him the ball in good positions.  Noc isn't going to do it.  Joe Smith isn't going to do it.  Duhon can't draw the defense to him when he drives so that doesn't help Thomas either.

I've been arguing for Thomas to start since my season review of Tyrus back on June 2nd.
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/6/2/14428/57491
It's one of my favorite issues.
http://www.blogabull.com/story/2007/9/19/22344/5522

I've never really understood the reluctance to start Thomas.  Because if the goal is for Thomas to play well and for the team as a whole to play well then it's pretty clear he should play with the starters.  And with Tyrus looking like he's actually going to start, i just don't understand the reluctance.  This is one issue that tends to agitate me.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Prospect
the prospect of Thomas starting is tantalizing and I agree it would be a shame to not start him if he is the best player.  Every option we have at PF has warts (Smith=Age, Noah=Experience, Thomas=Polish).  I'd be curious if there are any statistics on when Thomas played during games last season.  I have the impression that he often subbed in and I'd be curious if he was paired against backup PF's from other teams (a matchup that would CLEARLY favor Thomas).
Personally, I think it's worth having Thomas out starting on the floor.  He seems (I know, I'm making an uneducated observation) to be serious about improving and with our other starting four, we can afford to have somebody with rough edges out on the floor.  Personally, I'm not sold on Thomas having a 15-foot J or becoming a low-post option anytime soon (I'm still feeling burned by all my lame hopes during the Curry/Chandler years).  However, I don't know how important that is.  We do not have a rock-solid option for starting at PF, so it would seem Thomas comprises the next best option.
"...Keeping 'SlowHand' alive since aught-five"

by CookDing on Oct 18, 2007 7:51 AM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

examined all of the statistical evidence
I'll take most statistics with salt, please....

One of the beauties about sports is that all the stats in the world can go right out the window when it comes to a team geling together, hitting overdrive and becoming an unstopable force out of what WAS shear mediocrity.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 17, 2007 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I still need to see a
lot more out of Tyson before I'd say he has the greatest potential of anyone on the roster.  Yes, he's almost certainly the best fast twitch athlete, and if the sport was sprinting, where all he had to do was hear a starting gun and react, or high jumping, he'd be hands down the best "player" on the team.  

But the Bulls play basketball.  And probably even more important than a high concentration of fast-twitch muscles is a high concentration of "game sense."  If you take out the few top players who obviously excelled in both (MJ, Kobe, Labron come to mind), you're still left with a lot of the greatest players who primarily excelled in "game sense"--players who constantly got their edge from winning the game within the game.  Players like Magic Johnson, Dennis Rodman, Larry Bird, Charles Barkely...the list goes on and on.  Or current players like Nash and Kidd.  Or on the Bulls, I'd say Ben Wallace and Deng, and I see some of it in Noah already.  

What I'm saying is I'm not stuck on keeping Tyrus.  I think it's much more likely he doesn't get a lot better than he is now than it is he develops into a Kobe-style transcendent start.

by alec on Oct 17, 2007 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I think characterizing Tyrus ability as being
just a pure jumper misses his already uncanny ablity to block shots on defense and dunk on offense. Yes these are partly due to jumping ability but the timing and court sense have to be there as well. It is oh so tantalizing to envision Tyrus making 15 foot jump shots if left alone and taking it to the hole if guarded tightly. The rest of the bulls are solid if not spectaclar and only Luol has a chance to be an ALlSTar in the near future. In other words, either Tyrus becomes dominant or the Bulls are what Mariotti says they are, a nice experiment. Shoot, did I just quote Mariotti?

by philosoball on Oct 17, 2007 1:23 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

He does have good timing
and courst sense, but you're right, I see that as more a function of his being a spectacular athlete.  What I'm trying to get at is the ability of some players to play their opponents into doing exactly what they want them to do.  I think of Rodman as being the past master of that.  I thought he was just brilliant on the court.  And I think Kobe, in addition to being among the greatest athletes in the game, is the best at it in today's NBA.  

by alec on Oct 17, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

DC perspective
Being stuck in DC, I listened to the game over the radio with the local announcers. I know some people didn't like the way Arenas characterized our offense (as slow and plodding) but the announcers echoed his sentiment that Chicago is NOT a team you want to play. They talked about our unrelenting D, full court pressure and the fact that our defensive depth goes 12 deep (ignoring Du and Gordon I guess). Overall, talk of Bulls D reminds me of Rocky's speech about southpaws in the first movie: nobody wants to fight a southpaw cause they throw off your timing and make you look bad. Some in the league have decided that playing the Bulls is like fighting a southpaw: win or lose, we just make your game look bad.

by Old Skool Sloan on Oct 17, 2007 12:00 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

theres a difference
in saying that we're a team you don't want to play because we're good, dont want to play us because we beat you up, or dont want to play us because we're not fun

I believe arenas meant it he didt want to play us because we're good and we beat you up which to arenas, or even the uninformed person, means that we're slow....

I believe the cavalier characterization was a mistake

Honestly; how many teams would want to play the suns 82 games a yea?

The anouncers are correct that you dont wnat to play us because we wear you out, and arenas is smart enough to know this, but evidently his ghostwriter isnt

by milesgmsu on Oct 17, 2007 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

that was stated really shittily
lemme try again

Teams may want to avoid you because you're good, they beat you up, or both.

We're both. Duh

It's easy to connotate, however, that playing defense leads to a slower pace - that may be the reason arenas was mistaken about the speed of CLE vs CHI basketball

The announcers, however, were correct in that you don't want to play us given our defense, our tenacity, our ball movement, and our depth.

You could even make a strong argument for it in the playoffs last year. Miami got progressivley worse as the series drove on, and after game 3 when we did begin to play our game in the DET series, DET was never the same. Even game 6 the reason DET won was because we couldn't hit a shot, not because of any amazing DET play (remember PJ was our high scorer at the half...nay our only scorer). Games 1 and 2 in the DET CLE series were up int he air, and the next 4 we're all CLE's

by milesgmsu on Oct 17, 2007 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I got you
And I concur. If we continue to improve on D (which we're set to do: J Smith over PJ, the addition of Noah) that psychological edge will only improve.

by Old Skool Sloan on Oct 17, 2007 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

There are actually players on that board
who wouldn't trade Arenas, Nick Young, Songaila, and a first round pick for Kobe.

Please tell me that we aren't that bad on this site.

by rexisourqb on Oct 17, 2007 12:54 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Of course we aren't!
I'm all for a Kobe for Arenas-Young-Songaila trade.  ;)
"They had me do a psychology test and I asked Coach Skiles if that affected his coaching. He laughed and said, `No way.'" (Joakim Noah)

by wjb1492 on Oct 17, 2007 6:17 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

nightly vigils for the return of Ben Gordon
Many of you will think me out of my mind with this - but I think the Bulls have become a team (finally) that can survive and actually succeed without Ben Gordon.

But before you flame me for this, please understand that I LOVE BG, and don't want to see him go ANYWHERE.

It's just that he's among a surplus of guards on the team. And like I said yesterday - he's a great asset and could bring just as strong of a talent at a different position in a trade at just the right time in the season...
Perhaps for a monster down low player, like the much talked about and never happened trade for Pau Gasol last season....

All I am saying is that it is nice to finally have this luxury of having so much depth on the team.
And since Da Bulls have been playing so well even without BG out there, is simply reveals several possibilities.

And if they DID trade him in the end, they wouldn't just be doing without him.....
They'd be getting a great trade to replace him with.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 17, 2007 12:55 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

PRESEASON
What surplus of guards? A guy who may not even make the team is starting.

by hscs on Oct 17, 2007 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

surplus of guards
Thabo hasn't played yet.
And with them using Deng and the 2 now (more and more), maybe a "surplus" would be the wrong word.

My point is simply that they have more options now and could make a move without hurting the backcourt - especially if they want more production down low - IF that's what they wanted to do.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 17, 2007 1:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

trade scenarios aside
the difference between the guard rotation this season and last is probably less of Duhon, less of Hinrich at the 2, some Sefolosha, and a twinkle of Deng. I think that means more Gordon as well. The backcourt would look very thin should Gordon be traded for a big the Bulls may not need.

by hscs on Oct 17, 2007 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I don't think
The Bulls have a surplus of guards, but just not many more minutes to go around. Once Ben and Thabo come back, you're talking about a rotation of Kirk, Ben, Thabo, Chris and some Luol. Too many minutes going around

by Option27 on Oct 17, 2007 1:44 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I would describe it as just about right.
Duhon only backups Kirk.  Ben plays maybe 2 more min/g, and more at PG further reducing Duhon's role.  Deng plays minutes at SG in certain games.  He's not going to be able to do it every game because many teams go to a small quick backcourt off the bench.  and Thabo fills in the cracks, and if he plays well makes Deng at SG unnecessary.  If anyone gets hurt, the Bulls still have a solid 3-guard rotation.  That's just the right amount of depth, not a surplus.

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 1:56 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Wouldn't you much rather have
Thabo backing up Kirk though?

Just to make it perfect

by Option27 on Oct 17, 2007 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

I'd keep Thabo on the wings
until he shows some improvement. Although if you're talking about a backcourt of him and Gordon, maybe PG/SG is just semantics.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Oct 17, 2007 2:03 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

In my perfect world
He would play the role of Ron Harper when he played PG

by Option27 on Oct 17, 2007 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

And push Duhon entirely out of the rotation?
If that happened by the end of the year, I'd be thrilled.  I'm willing to accept that Duhon is a really solid backup PG if used in that role.  If Thabo actually out plays Duhon, rather than simply not negatively effecting Kirk like Duhon does, then the Bulls' backcourt would be incredibly good.  I have alot of faith in Thabo, but straight up outplaying Duhon is alot to expect from him this year.  

by Scotter on Oct 17, 2007 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

Kobe's 29
From 29 on, MJ's numbers went down in (almost)every statistical catagory every year--except, of course championships.

by alec on Oct 17, 2007 2:18 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

I wonder who
is saying this stuff about BG? Pretty ridiculous.

http://blogs.chicagosports.chicagotribune.com/fullcourtpress/

Racecar spelled backwards is racecar.

by sue369 on Oct 17, 2007 5:10 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

its speculation
all over certain basketball forums, and it sounds like KC has gotten mail about it.

One of those things like the "BG is sitting out because a trade is happening" that get blown out of proportion by a small group of fans.

by KT on Oct 17, 2007 6:57 PM CDT up reply actions   0 recs

its speculation
Couldn't agree more...

EVERYTHING is speculatory at this point and we all know how pro sports go....a trade may or may not happen at any given point in time....

Or not...

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Oct 17, 2007 7:06 PM CDT reply actions   0 recs

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Chicago Bulls.
Start posting about the Bulls »

Join SB Nation and dive into communities focused on all your favorite teams.

FanPosts

Community blog posts and discussion.

Recent FanPosts

Small
The Time is Now to Trade Deng
Small
What the Bulls are missing
Jayhawk_small
Game Preview # 12 - Bulls @ Nuggets
Blackstar_small
Plan B: if the Bulls fail to sign a FA superstar at the 2 or the 4 spots...
Small
How About A Whole New Plan?
Small
Game Preview #10: Chicago Bulls vs. Los Angeles Lakers
Small
Rose Problem: Trying too hard to please Vinny and "teammates"
Small
Your thought on a GS-Chi Ellis A-R for Kirk TT trade dreams
Jjohnson
What's going on in Derrick Rose's head?
Drose2_small
what i'd do as GM right now...

+ New FanPost All FanPosts >

SPONSORS


Guy who does everything

Blogabull_s_small your friendly BullsBlogger