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Retaliation on James Posey (UPDATE: Posey Suspended)

[UPDATE: Posey suspended one game. -Matt]

This guy is a complete chump. Whats even worse is he acts like he didn't mean it. He puts his hands up like "oh I didn't mean to do that", he's a chump.

But the bigger chumps will be the Bulls if there is not an immidiate retaliation on Posey during their next meeting on Sat. January 27th at the United Center. I was pissed that Ben Wallace, who was standing a few feet away, didn't at least give Posey a good shove. I understand you want to keep a cool head and the game was close and everything like that but you need to stand up and defend yourself. Are we going to wait until Posey breaks Ben Gordon's arm? WTF?! Scott Skiles is supposed to be a badass that challenged Shaq to a fight when they were teammates. He sounded pissed after the game. But I want to see action taken on Jan 27th, if not, this team is a bunch of sissies. And I want to see it on POSEY not Wade or someone else. That's how I feel. You don't let the same guy, on three seperate occasions, try and injure one of your players and just sit there and do nothing.

Then Pat Riley had the nerve to cry about Kirk Hinrich grabbing Wade's hand and that's how he got hurt. Pat Riley is one of the biggest hypocrites I've ever seen. He used to whine and cry when the Pistons would beat the hell out of the Lakers. Then he becomes the Knicks coach and applies those same bad boy tactics with his Knicks teams. Pat Riley can go to hell as far as I'm concerned.

Now to Stern and Jackson. The Bulls should be sending a tape to the league office with all three of those cheap shots. If Anthony gets 15 games for throwing one punch, Posey should be getting multiple games for this. I think it's safe to say there is a pattern here. Heat are losing, Posey can't handle it, Posey delivers cheap shot. And an even more disturbing pattern, Bulls do nothing to retaliate.

If Stern and Jackson are serious about cleaning up dirty play with excessive suspensions, then I would expect Posey to at least get three games. But I doubt it.

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The Knicks/Nuggets 'Brawl'
is relatively fresh, the NBA would have come down hard on any shoving or retaliation. What good would a shoving match do anyway?

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 10:38 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

So
just let Posey keep trying to hurt our players?  If a pitcher keeps hitting one of your batters, what happens? Eventually a message has to be sent.  Again, are they going to wait until he undercuts Gordon on a layup or something.  One player, three seperate incidents, they need to retaliate.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 10:42 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Yeah, fantastic
I'd love Wallace to miss 15 games and the Bulls lose home court in the playoffs because of it.  I'm sorry, but James Posey is not worth that.  Unfortunately in the NBA right now there is no good way to retaliate without getting a bunch of people suspended.  The Bulls should absolutely foul Posey hard at every opportunity next game, but you just can't punch anybody.  Baseball is a totally different situation, most fights end up with suspensions of a few games (maybe 1/50th of the season) but in basketball you can easily be gone for  1/8th of the schedule.

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 28, 2006 10:50 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Don't use Wallace then
Use a Krhyapa or maybe a Sweets or even a Tyrus. Don't use a vital player to do so.

Losing Posey will not affect the Heat all that much especially with the emergence of Dorrell Wright.

But knowing Pax, he'd never advocate using a thug a la John Chaney.  

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 28, 2006 12:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

dont use tyrus
hes young, and we dont want him getting a rep as a dirty player a la collins

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 4:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Here's the difference...
in baseball a pitcher is holding a batter's life in his hands every time he winds up.  A 95 mph fastball to the face/head could kill a man.  So, every time a batter steps into the batter's box he's risking his life.  I think this is a slightly more acceptable reason for a guy finding offense enough to charge the mound.
My girlfriend would rather be with Kirk Hinrich.

by defensive indifference on Dec 28, 2006 11:56 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ugh
I think the Bulls are regarded as a 'tough' team regardless of what dirty plays are inflicted on them without 'retaliation'. Between Kirk, Noc, and Wallace the Bulls are a team that fouls on nearly every play under the 'guise of 'physical defense'.

A hard foul will probably be made if the situation presents itself...but what do you exactly want to see? A Heat player hurt and a shoving match? Maybe a few punches so everyone can write articles about what a black-eye it is for the sport?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 10:48 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Was Kirk responsible for injuring Wade?
Kind of a tangential question but I'm assuming you saw the game Matt... can you comment on this?  Gotta admit that it pains me to acknowledge that some of our own guys play dirty.

by paxson43 on Dec 28, 2006 12:07 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

hate to steal Matt's thunder,
but that's a helluva talent if Hinrich can purposely dislocate wrists without the refs noticing.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 12:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Agreed: Kirk's not that talented...
But if he did grab Wade's arm during the screen, he's still at fault for playing dirty.

by paxson43 on Dec 28, 2006 12:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

it's hardly worth
Riley's postgame tears, and hand-checking or grabbing isn't exactly tripping or pounding someone in midair.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 12:28 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Come on now.
Don't you think that if Kirk was a dirty player and was always grabbing other players hands or wrists that something would have been said before now. I feel the only reason Riley said anything at all was to take the spotlight off of Posey. This from a man who said Posey went after the ball and as far as he could see got the ball. He's a liar.
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 1:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Amen
It's complete misdirection on Riley's part.  And PaxJax is right; I don't think Kirk was studying Kung-fu out there in Sioux City, Iowa.  

by Freethefro on Dec 28, 2006 1:47 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I don't know
It wouldn't totally surprise me if Kirk had a locker room reputation for playing a little dirty.  He uses up most of his fouls, so you have to figure he's getting away with a few more along the way.  (Warning, Paxson Jackson: Stockton comparison follows) As I recall, it wasn't until Stockton had been in the league for about a decade before mutterings of his dirty ways began to surface.  Disbelief eventually gave way to acceptance.  Another example would be Bruce Bowen.  For years, everyone simply applauded his perimeter defense.  Now, at least part of the story is how some accuse him of dangerously sliding under jump-shooters.

So is Kirk dirty?  I doubt it, at least not more than the average player.  But this is the NBA, not some choir boys playing pick up.    

by jamestkirk on Dec 29, 2006 5:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

If they retaliate
all that will do is make the Bulls short handed for a few games. We can't afford that. I'm sure Paxson and Skiles have already contacted the league office and complained. We will have to wait and see what is done to Posey since this is his third offense on a Bulls player in less than a year. Maybe some anger management classes are in order for Posey. If nothing else Kendall Gill said he wanted a 10 day contract for the next game and he would take care of Posey. ;-)
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 10:51 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

Benny the Bull
could retaliate....I mean he punched a fucking cop!

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 4:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No
you don't send Ben Wallace to retaliate.  You send in the goon. Did Thomas send out Marbury? No, it was Mardy Collins. Who the goon is on the Bulls, I'm not sure, but a message needs to be send.
It's like in the 92 conference Finals when Danny Ferry took a couple swings at Jordan.  Was Jordan the one that did the retaliation in game 6?? NO, it was Stacey King who took out Ferry on a break away.

Again, do you just let James Posey keep taking cheap shot at the Bulls players.  Are you happy with that?  Will you be happy when one of these cheap shots results in a lengthy injury? It could of happened to Deng. Than goodness it didn't.  A message need to be sent.  Or else, we're the Bulls, take your shots and don't worry nothing will happen as a result.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 10:58 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

ummm...
You did just say this:

I was pissed that Ben Wallace, who was standing a few feet away, didn't at least give Posey a good shove.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 11:00 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

no good can come of this line of thought:
Let's look to Isaiah Thomas as someone to emulate!

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 1:18 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Love
the Kendal Gill comment. That's my point. You don't send in a star to retaliate.  You send in the 12th man.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 11:00 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

yeah
a shove wouldn't result in a 15 game suspension.  Posey wouldn't step to Wallace anyway.  He's a chump.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 11:01 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

So
Paxson Jackson, you're happy with a guy being allowed to try and hurt our players with no retaliation?

What if the league just gives a fine with no suspension?  That could happen.  The NBA is so incosistent with their puishments. I wouldn't be shocked if Posey gets nothing.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 11:03 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

he's already getting 10K fined
which is automatic on a flagrant 2 (or 1....whatever is the worst)....just like a 5K fine is automatic on Techs

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 12:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

wow
10K, that's a lot.  ..if you were on my salary.  Are we really supposed to believe a paltry 10K means anything to an NBA starter?  

by CookDing on Dec 28, 2006 2:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i didnt say it means anything
but i did point out that there is an automatic fine so that he didnt get off scot free...

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 4:20 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That could happen
Knowing those assholes, they'll probably suspend Hinrich for the season for daring to lay a hand on the Golden Child.

by Big D on Dec 28, 2006 12:15 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

okay
But that won't happen. So you can use my qoutes. But it doess't apply.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 11:05 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I gotta go guys
Good talking with you all :)

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 11:06 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

beat them don't fight them
Best thing Bulls can do is keep their cool and beat the heat and get home court advantage for playoffs.  Fighting isn't going to solve anything or get them any more respect.  They can't afford to lose Wallace or Noc to suspensions if they started a fight with Posey.

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 28, 2006 11:11 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I agree
Beat them don't fight them. The first time, maybe the second. But the third time, there needs to be a message sent.

That's my whole problem. It's the same guy threee different times.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 12:26 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Send Khryapa out there to punch Posey
It's not like he's doing anything else for us.

by Big D on Dec 28, 2006 12:04 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

retaliation
I'm going to try to explain my point better. I think I might be coming off as guy who thinks fighting is the answer to all problems. No, not at all.  But when the same guy, on three seperate occasions, attempts to hurt one of your players, something needs to be done. It's doesn't need to be a fight.  A hard foul or something. The Bulls haven't done anything.  You think Charles Oakley would stand there and let Michael Jordan get hammered like that? Never. It was a different time but you still have to defend yourself and your team.

What would that do or accomplish you ask?  Well, I'll use this anology. Maybe it makes sense.  A bully steals a kids lunch money on Mon, Tues, and Wed.  He goes to take it on Thursday but the kid punches him in the face when he tries to do it. On Friday, the bully thinks twice about taking the money.  Posey is intentionally trying to hurt our guys without any consequence.  If he had it in the back of his mind that there would be consequences for his actions he wouldn't do it, in my opinion.  He obviously not worried about league consequences because he continues to do it. A different sport, but guys knew never to touch Wayne Gretzky because it would mean they would get their butt kicked for the rest of the game by Marty McSorely and guys like that. Again, hockey is a different animal but guys had that in the back of their mind.  All Posey knows is, I take my cheap shot and nothing happens.  He did have the one game suspension in the playoffs but that obviously hasn't done much to stop him.

Now I made a comment that the guys who hit big Marty in the NBDL should be banned.  Now the fact that I made that statement should mean I should know better. Especially with the big suspension in the Knicks/Nuggs brawls. But what I think should happen, and what actually happens, are two completely different things.  Carmelo suspension was excessive in my opinion. Now does that mean that any punch thrown in the NBA will result in 15 game suspension? I doubt it.  The only reason those penalties were so extreme was because it was in NY. If the brawl was between the Warriors and the Supersonics it wouldn't have been nearly as long.  Hell, Ray Allen and Keyon Dooling had a fight that went into the front row last January.  Allen got only 3 and Dooling got 5.  

One cheap shot, okay. 2 cheap shots, eh not good. 3 cheap shots, something needs to be done.  I said Ben Wallace should of gave Posey a shove, I still think so.  Would a shove result in a 15 game suspension and loss of home court, no. But something that could result in a loss of home court is a broken wrist to Luol Deng. It could of happened, thank God it didn't.  Next time Skiles needs to send out the goon to send a message to Posey. Again, who's the goon on the Bulls I don't know? Sign Kendall Gill to a 10 day like Sue said :)  I'm curious to see what the league will actually do here.

Just remember one thing, WWNVLD? If that happened to Stormin Norm I think there would have been an all out brawl.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 12:21 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

First time caller
Would a shove result in a 15 game suspension and loss of home court, no.[sic]

I'm curious to see what the league will actually do here.

Shouldn't an expert like Brian Kush know exactly what's going to happen to Posey?

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 12:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Knicks fight didn't start with a punch.
That's the problem.  If Wallace shoves Posey, it could easily turn into a full scale fight with punches being thrown.  No guarantee it ends there.

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 28, 2006 12:52 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

And that is the problem...
...the league has created with severe suspensions for fighting.  The only way to truly be consistent is to also dole out relatively severe suspensions for players who commit fight-worthy fouls.  We'll see what happens.  The Bulls showed restraint.  In the eyes of league management, they should be lauded for that.  If a lack of prolonged restraint showed by JR Smith deserves 10 games (he didn't escalate the fight until Nate Robinson went after him for the fourth time), then the league should laud the Bulls for not escalating a fight-worty flagrant foul.  The only way they can truly do that is to punish Posey.  I say five games.  We'll see what happens...
Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Dec 28, 2006 12:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The league doesn't give a crap about consistency
All they care about is avoiding having images of players punching one another playing over and aver and over again on ESPN.  Posey's foul hasn't been played over and over again, so I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't even suspend him.  Hell, if you watched ESPN you wouldn't even know about the foul, since all they talked about from the game was Dwyane Wade getting hurt.

by Big D on Dec 28, 2006 1:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I agree
And the lack of significant airtime about Posey's  flagrant foul is egregious enough.

The NBA doesn't want people riled up. Talk less about a story and it will go away in the minds of the general public.

But not here at Blog-a-Bull.

We're beating this donkey to death.

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 28, 2006 2:03 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Terrific point
by Corey.  If the league is going to stop players from directly policing the game (as it should), it should also step in and actually do the work of protecting the players.  

by Freethefro on Dec 28, 2006 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Oh God..
I'm no expert. I don't claim to be an expert. Please don't try to turn it into that.  

What will happen to Posey?  I think the league is inconsistent with there punishments. So if I had to bet on it, I think Posey gets 1 game.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 1:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I know you're not an expert,
I was just pointing out another contradictatory pair of statements.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 1:10 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Not really
What I think should happen and what actually happens are different things.

I think the guy who punched Marty should be banned. Punching a guy and having it result in a fractured skull is pretty bad.  I know that probably wasn't the intent but that was the result. Will it happen? Probably not.

That doesn't mean I don't think a message being sent to a cheap shot artist shouldn't happen.  The league is cracking down with the Knicks brawl. Thats what we assume, but we'll see what happens with the next fight or punch thrown.

Everyone is assuming that if Wallace did what I suggested that it would result in NY brawl. Chances are it wouldn't. It could, but there have been several hard fouls, shoving matches, punches thrown, in the NBA that haven't resulted in 10 man brawls.

So Paxson Jackson, your cool with Posey just taking cheap shots at the Bulls?  I'll wait to see what the league does.  I'm very curious to see, considering it's the same team and three different incidents.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 1:24 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's just ridiculous
I don't want the Bulls to retaliate.  Does that mean I think it's ok for Posey to go around acting like a fool?  Of course not.

Who cares what they think now?  As long as the Bulls can keep beating them, that's all that matters.  Remember the Bad Boy Pistons?  By getting into it with them, the Bulls were playing their game.  The Pistons sure went away quick when the Bulls stopped caring and just beat them.  

by Moses Taylor on Dec 28, 2006 2:22 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Do you
honestly believe that had Wallace shoved Posey it would have ended there? A shove by Wallace would have been the worst thing to do as it would have just fueled the fire and we would have had NY and Denver all over again.
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 12:56 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Yeah...
I'm sure Posey would've repented his unholy actions had Ben Wallace only given him a little shove in the chest.  Would've solved EVERYTHING!
My girlfriend would rather be with Kirk Hinrich.

by defensive indifference on Dec 28, 2006 1:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Fighting
Everyone now assumes that a fight will result in Knicks/Nuggets like suspension.  I don't think so. Not every fight is like the Knick/Nuggets.  Until the league does it again, that's when I will believe it.  The NBA has always been inconsistent with their penalties.

It sounds bad but I can't wait until another punch is thrown in the NBA. Just because I want to see what the suspension is.  If it's 10-15 game, like Anthony, then I'll change my opinion.  But until I see that I don't think a message being sent via a hard foul would result in a lenghty suspension.

My question to everyone I guess is, are you okay with Posey continuing to do this?  What if it happens again?  What then?  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 1:15 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Of course we're not o.k. with it.
Everyone here can agree that Posey is a chump.  It's frustrating to watch him take cheap shots at the Bulls.  With the way the NBA is cracking down on fights though, you just can't try and retaliate any more.  Blame David Stern if you want.  Do you really think that Ben Wallace wants any part of a fight after what happened the last time?

And what was so horrible about the Knicks/Nuggets fight anyway?  There was one punch thrown and no one was really hurt.  Yeah, it was a big mess, but nothing remarkable.

I wouldn't feel good about the Bulls sending a scrub to play enforcer and stooping to Isiah's level either.  I don't really care if it would be more justified in their case.

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 28, 2006 1:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay
I don't think anyone here is OK with Posey continuing to do this.  The question is how do we retaliate?  He was thrown out of the game, so there was no opportunity for a hard foul now.  Should Ben Gordon have decked Chris Quinn?  I say we have to wait until we play them again and then we conveniently have Sweetney "fall" on him (ala Tony Siragusa on Rich Gannon).  You can't fine and suspend a guy for falling, can you?  What if he lands belly-first while holding his ankles?
Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Dec 28, 2006 1:23 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It doesn't sound bad,
it's just stupid. And no Bulls fan is okay with Posey's fouls, but it seems you're in the minority of people who are looking forward to losing players to suspensions out of curiosity.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 1:25 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No
I don't look forward to losing a player.  But there needs to be a message sent.  In the game last night I though Wallace could of sent that message.  But they didn't react.
No the next time they play I think someone should give Posey a hard foul.  Not a star but the 11th or 12th man can do it.  
Whats it going to take, Posey hurting Gordon or Noce?  Hell, I'm suprised he doesn't have a towel like that Packer player that hurt Jim McMahon:)

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 1:35 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Save it for the podcast,
I just don't care, and you've contradicted yourself so many times I don't need to point out what a dope you are.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 1:38 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Okay
Have to go with the insults now? Okay.  Tell me where I contradicted myself and I'll talk about it.  Don't call me names like a 12 year old or sarcastically call me a know it all.  I didn't insult you at all.  I'm not saying your wrong.  I'm not saying anyone's wrong.  
I think there should be retaliation. I don't think that's wrong.
A majority of the people who have responded don't think there should be retaliation because of a possible suspension that might result. They're not wrong either.  So thanks or acknowledging the podcast and keep the insults for James Posey.

Let me ask you this.  Possible suspensions aside. Do you think there should be retaliation agaisnt Posey? Yes or No.  
Example - Send in Khryapa like someone suggested.  Khryapa delivers a hard foul to Posey, similar to the one on Deng.  Khryapa gets a 5 game suspension. Would you object to that?

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 2:54 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

'message'
I don't think by not shoving somebody the Bulls are telling Posey and other teams 'it's OK to take cheap shots at us'. I just don't.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 1:40 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I disagree.
Players know exactly who they can and can't go after. I know it when I'm playing at the gym, who I can and can't get away with fouling hard. It'll get around, if it already hasn't.  

But how about some lip service from one of Deng's teammates? Somebody say something! Anything!

Wallace had something for Riley's ears when it affected him, why not something for Posey's ears too?

Such a big deal was made about the brawl with the Wizards a few preseasons ago, and how it brought the team together. Wouldn't this have been the ideal time to at least say something to Posey?

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 28, 2006 2:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Hinrich and Haslem
were teed up for jabbering after Posey tried to kill Deng.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 2:13 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just looked that up
and you are correct, the double techs came right after the flagrant foul.

The way Tom Dore reported it, I thought they occurred earlier in the game.

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 28, 2006 2:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

right, so they 'said something'
Is everything ok now?

I just don't see what exactly people want. Seems like most want 'a message'...well great. I'm just happy they won this game and I'm sure if they want to retaliate they will in the next game. While still winning.

And despite what was reported I don't buy into the team coming together after Eddy Curry punched a Wiz in the nuts. Was that the year they started 0-9, or 12-19?
 

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Matt I think we have to take it into our own hands
I stated this in my pulled diary but I'm going to send my Gambino Boys to fit Posey with some cement shoes.

...OK so I really don't know any Gambino Boys but my wife came with one bad @$$ shit-zu that I can send to nip at Posey's heels. Don't laugh that Shit-zu used to kick both of my Dobermans butt. It didn't take a hard foul to get that Shit-zu going just try taking her dog bone.

But I digress the only thing that the Bulls players could do and even Stormin Norman said that this is what he would do back in the day is return the favor by Hard fouling one of their players to send a message.

Now thanks to my beloved Bears I hope to be going down to Miami in early Febuary, so if anyone has Posey's address I will bring the dog and take care of this matter with no suspensions.

by boerwinkle on Dec 29, 2006 8:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

ha!!!! perfect solution, shit-szu his ass!!!
I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 29, 2006 10:45 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

You guys make great points
I just think at a point you have to defend yourself and your teammates.  The league might have changed with a crackdown.  But defending yourself and teammates hasn't changed. You still have to do that regardless of a possible suspension.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 1:32 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

"hasn't changed," actually never was
Guys just don't physically retaliate in the NBA like they do in baseball or the NHL; never have, never will.  
What truly has always happens, is to bait someone into protecting their machismo by getting under their skin, and making them retaliate.  This gets the other team off their game, and possibly off the floor with an ejection or a suspension.  Rodman, Lambier, Nocioni, are masters at this.  

So kudos to the Bulls for not falling for that trick.  If they had, they probably would have lost the game last night.

I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 28, 2006 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

True
there is no direct retaliation like MLB or NHL.  If it's a one time thing you can turn the other cheek. But the same guy 3 times now? The message needs to be sent.

When I saw Deng holding his wrist I freaked out.  I don't know if it was the same wrist he had surgery on but it was just a scary moment.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 3:11 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It was the same wrist, according to the papers
and I agree...it was scary seeing Deng grab the wrist. But in the stands I was thinking 'Goddamn Posey, Deng may be hurt' instead of 'Why is nobody else SENDING A MESSAGE?!?!?!?!'.

I mean, some players jawed at the Heat players (didn't see the telecast but I know there were technicals to Hinrich and Haslem), and Posey got kicked out of the game and the Bulls won. Hopefully the league can look and see this isn't an isolated incident with Posey and the Bulls and he gets suspended.

And if the Bulls see it fit to retaliate in their next meeting I don't mind, but I equally don't mind if they decide to do nothing and just play their normal game, which in my opinion is plenty 'tough', as of the toughest teams in the NBA, in my opinion.

Sure, having Noc (or somebody) shove Posey in the back afterwards would've been gratifying to see, but he would've gotten kicked out and the Bulls may have lost. PLUS, from the looks of it I don't think that would've been enough to satisfy the majority of the vocal commenters in this thread. I'm completely against the idea of now headhunting the Heat, as a premeditated retaliation will get a pretty severe punishment.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Sure
I was concerened about Deng first and foremost.  But after he shot the free throws I was furious that James Posey has now taken three cheap shots at Bulls players.

Kirk Hinrich made a comment during training camp that I found interesting.

Kirk Hinrich said, and I'm paraphrasing, the addition of Ben Wallace is like getting kicked around the playround and then big brother shows up.

Something along those lines.  What did Hinrich mean by that?  He meant that Ben Wallace is there to be an intimidator and protector.  You need a guy like that when you have a chump like Posey taking cheap shots.  Just like we had Antonio Davis to jump in there and mix it up with the Wizards.  

I think there should be retaliation. People are taking my comments to the extreme.  I don't mean go to center court for the jump ball and punch Posey in the face.  Find your spot to take a hard foul. Just like Stacy King did in the 92 East Finals and that will do.
You can turn the other cheek the first time. Bite your lip the second time.  But three times?  Come on.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 6:19 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I think Hinrich
was going in the direction of Ben's veteran defensive stopper status, and not a more literal interpretation.

I was furious that James Posey has now taken three cheap shots at Bulls players.
I think there should be retaliation.

Really?

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 28, 2006 6:30 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Let's wait and see about League suspensions
before we advocate the Bulls deal out vigilante justice, and whether that will actually help them send a message more than beating the heat like a drum on the scoreboard.  
 
I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 28, 2006 3:31 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

retaliator always punished more
the retaliator is always the one who is thrown out of the game and punished the most.

exception: the only time I think that wasn't true was the a Celtics-Pistons Eastern Conference Finals.  Lambier did something dirty to Robert Parrish.  Chief pummeled Lambeier at mid court, with overhand punches (somewhat awkwardly).  He didn't even get a foul called on him.  (So those of you out for blood should advocate bringing Chief out of retirement for some retaliation)

I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 28, 2006 4:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

chief's already on one banner
we'll get him a 2nd Bull Banner when hes partying with us in June in Grant Park

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 4:32 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

pistons-celtics fights
I love youtube, don't know when I'll get sick of it (probably in a month).  Bird v. Laimbeer, Parrish v. Laimbeer, but not the one I was thinking of, maybe my mind is playing tricks on me.  

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SSK9dHfasQ

I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 28, 2006 7:14 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Did you notice Bird's throw?
He zipped it right past two assistants' ears and straight at Laimbeer's head.  Nice throw!

by jamestkirk on Dec 29, 2006 6:17 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

At this point
I would think the Bulls have to take a wait-and-see approach.  If Posey gets a multiple game suspension, then it would seem safe to assume the situations resolved (with the threat of future, and longer, suspensions acting as a deterrent for Posey).
Of course, Riley's susbsequent squawking diverted enough attention that I don't see Posey getting a multiple-game suspension.  At that point, I would advocate a little mercinary action on the part of the Bulls.  I'm not saying a shove or a punch, but definitely a message foul to let Posey know he can be had too.  
Look, I'm a purist and believe the game should just be played and that thuggery is a joke.  Unfortunately, it's clear that Posey does not.  Do we want to suffer the same fate as Tyrus again?  How about Monta Ellis?  What if it's worse?  
It's clear that Posey intends to level hard, unnecessary fouls on the Bulls if his team is losing to us.  He's done it three games in a row.  This time, he nearly ended Deng's season (any Bulls fan that saw the play and Deng clutching his right wrist had to was the case).  I don't see how a player can stand by and let that continue.  If the league refuses to punish Posey, than why shouldn't someone like Khryappa let Posey know that sort of crap won't fly any longer?  With the established pattern of behavior, the alternative would seem to be losing one of our important players to injury.

by CookDing on Dec 28, 2006 2:30 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

YES
That's my point.  Not thuggery but once something has happened three times, a pattern.  I think retaliation isn't wrong.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 2:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I wish all
of you who want retaliation would just stop going on about it. Posey is a thug and it was a dirty play. We all know that. Going on and on about what you think should have been done or should be done in the future serves no purpose. I do not want anyone on our team to retaliate. It makes us no better than them if we do.

I want to thank Riley for showing the inner woman in him by blaming Kirk for Wades injury. Kirk has to be pissed off today and I'm sure he had a great practice. No doubt on Jan. 27th he will have a great game.

Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 3:59 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

agreed
Let's say they do absolutely nothing. Even in the next game there's no 'message' (however degree some of you see fit) sent to Posey or anyone in the Heat.  ..

Is there anything bad that happens because of that? Headhunters from around the league will now take cheap shots at the frail wimpy Bulls because by not retaliating they've implicitly condoned it? really? The Heat will be galvanized over being dirty players and surge towards the playoffs, while the Bulls will be embarrassed and lose confidence?

Does this have any significance at all ON THE COURT?

Or is it just an excuse to either reminisce over the old-school days of NBA basketball or bring up your own amateur athletic endeavors to form some sort of lame parallel?

I personally think it's just the latter...and none of this has to do with the Bulls getting to a title.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 28, 2006 4:41 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well, there's a few shots aimed my way...
Look, I'm not actually advocating retaliation. I'm just surprised there wasn't more considering Posey's history.

I can understand why Ben Wallace didn't do anything: 1) he was crucified for the Palace brawl and 2) he doesn't know of the history because he wasn't on the Bulls last season.

When mentioning Jordan's X-Man confrontation, it was to identify a way to combat the problem without resorting to violence. The right word at the right time from the right guy can have a profound affect on any other players who might suffer from a case of shrinking balls. Yes, the majority of NBA guys are not shrinking violets, but the gravity of MJ's "shut up or else" carried just enough weight to make other Knicks think before attacking.

Is this an attempt to reminisce? Hardly! I'm over those days and would consider a new title just as impressive as any of the 90's teams. It's just easy to recall incidents from those days because they're so ingrained in the memory. I think were Tyson on the team still and on the court at the time, there might have been some other actions.

And if you're telling me that there's no credence to the "survival of the fittest" mentality on the court even down to the park district level, then you're being very naive. Getting into the head of an opponent is just as much a part of game as lacing up the sneakers or shooting a jumper. Be it in the form of a hard foul or some trash talk, engaging the enemy in any way to make them less competitive is a huge part of the game. And anyone -- me, you, the guys you do anything competitively -- who's played the game can relate. So the parallel is apropos, and not a lame excuse to type a few words.

The question is does it make the Bulls a soft           team? I'm not sure exactly. They didn't fall off the wagon and lose so kudos to them for being mentally tough, but is it possible that something will happen again because of the lack of a response? Absolutely. Sharks smell blood in the water, a boxer focuses on a particular opening in his opponent's defense, and a Pat Riley-led team will take advantage of any mental plus it can garner, including having Posey take cheap shots whenever possible.

Retaliation is in today's NBA is just as Skiles said in the postgame -- politically incorrect; Stern and Jackson, et.al., have sent enough messages to the players that it's definitely gotten thru. But fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me...fool me three times and watch everyone steal my lunch money. That makes the situation so disparaging; it keeps happening. eventually someone is gonna get hurt; it's either a Bull from Posey's continued thug tactics or Posey cuz the league doesn't allowing a certain degree of policing their own by the players.      

by james@lifeinthecell on Dec 28, 2006 6:53 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Bulls win three times, and who gives a damn?
honestly, they won every game where Posey tried to 'get in their head'. MJ won because he was better than everyone else, not because he was sending messages.

How about this....the fact that Heat players are losing their cool and getting ejected mean that the Bulls are in THEIR head?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 12:37 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

on the court
i hope your comments weren't directed at me.  i have no reason to relive my atheletic endeavors, i'm a former long-distance runner for christ's sake.  also, i don't give a damn about what happened in the past in the nba aside from watching a bulls dynasty replay on espn classic from time to time.  what i do care about is that fact that Posey has established an indisputable pattern of flagrantly fouling Bulls players.  it wouldn't be a big deal if A) one of those fouls didn't nearly re-aggravate a wrist injury that previously ended Deng's injury and B) knocked Thomas out for, what, two weeks.  
plus, i prefaced everything by saying that if the league acts, it should be left at that.
i'm going to assume the potshots were aimed at somebody else and suggest that they be left out of any discussion because they don't aid anything.
as for the retaliation debate, all i care about is the physical well-being of our players.  posey, quite clearly, threatens that.  if the league refuses to act as a deterrent for him, i just think somebody else needs to.  the alternative, it would seem, would be the loss of one of our key players.  i know it's dirty and stupid.  i know that.  i just don't think posey leaves much of a choice.  look at Monta Elliss (a result of a Posey undercut).  it's not about sinking to someone's level, at this point, it's about protecting one's own health and that of one's teammates.  

by CookDing on Dec 29, 2006 8:23 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

meant
to say "ended Deng's season", not "injury".

by CookDing on Dec 29, 2006 8:26 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

also
let me point out that the most immediate issue is not about getting into players heads.  i would think any fan that watched the Bulls since Skiles hiring could argue that they have not let teams into their head.  the immediate issue is one of physical safety.   anything after that is just stephen-a-smith-esque melodrama/posturing.  i agree with matt on that, wholeheartedly.  

by CookDing on Dec 29, 2006 8:29 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

God..
like we should listen to anything Dip Bayless says.  He's a bigger joke than James Posey.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 28, 2006 3:12 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Wow
How many times did you post on this thread?  You definitely out Paxjaxed yourself.  

I agree with you though, where the f**k was Maalik Allen?  If Khryapa is looking to work his way into the rotation, this would have been a good way to prove he was serious (you don't think that Skiles would appreciate Khraypa playing his role?)  A couple of Charles Barkley windmills by our bench and the whole thing would be over.  If you let Posey get away with this kind of shit, our guys will start looking over their shoulder everytime they go to the hole.  That's half the reason Deng takes so many of those 20 footers now.  If Posey hadn't clotheslined Deng, we win that game by 20.  Bottomline, Posey needs to get his skull thumped albeit preferably by one of our scrubs.

by bullshooter on Dec 28, 2006 9:04 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

What did you want Khryapa to do exactly
Run off the bench (dumb, auto suspension, even less playing time) or susbtitute himself in?  It was a close game, and his ass hasn't seen the court outside of warmups in forever.  

by Moses Taylor on Dec 29, 2006 10:51 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Inactive?
I am not sure if Khrapya even dressed.  Why not take a run at Posey, he's not getting any clock anyway, what's he got to lose?

by bullshooter on Dec 29, 2006 1:09 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i'm..
...not a big fan of violence, but one way or another, i get the feeling that the heat will feel some type of recourse for posey's incidents.  i wouldn't expect a full out brawl, but i wouldn't be surprised to see some hard(er) fouls in their next game.  you would hope that skiles had already coached his players on how to behave in such instances, and that's why there was no immediate retaliation.

i think their next game will be a doozy to watch.

by leeac on Dec 28, 2006 3:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Pathetic.
Hinrich is supposedly a thug because he grabs someone's hand (allegedly)?  That's the lamest accusation of dirty play I've ever heard.  Every good defensive player in the league is guilty of holding and grabbing sometimes. With the rate he gets called for fouls it's impossible to say that Hinrich does it worse or gets away with it more than anyone else.  Not to mention that even if he did cause Wade's injury, that's a pretty random freak occurrence.

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 28, 2006 3:50 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Wade/Hinirch & Posey points not yet brought up
Does anyone know what the heat bloggers are saying about Both hinrich and posey? I would check, but lazyness combined with the fact that I'm at home on my parents Dial-up isnt going to make me poke around

Two. No one has brought up (including wade or hinrich) the rather obvious point as to why hinrich would desire to hurt wade. They were Team USA teammates, and they seemed to become good friends (Hell; if Gilbert "Hibachi" Arenas says hinrich and the bulls are some good guys, then clearly there was something in the water over in Japan) They pasts crossed paths in numerous ways...both grew up big bulls fans; both went to Midwest basketball schools, both were prized by the heat and bulls in the draft....they both are converse guys! It just seems like there is nothing for kirk to gain by taking down the posterchild

by milesgmsu on Dec 28, 2006 5:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Kirk did
not hurt Wade. That was just Riley's way to divert attention away from Posey and in a way it worked.

On CTL tonight Sam Smith and KC Johnson were on the panel and they talked to reporter from Miami. Of course he said that Posey's foul was not that bad. It was a hard foul but not that flagrant and the guys on the panel didn't let him get by with that. They asked him about Rileys comments on Kirk and the reporter said Riley was off base on that one. The reporter thought a one or two game suspension was in order but the CTL panel said it needed to be 3 - 5 or more.

Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 7:45 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I meant
that even if we were to give Riley all the credit in the world; it still doenst mean that Hinrich was trying to hurt wade

by milesgmsu on Dec 29, 2006 10:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Pax on Posey
On the  Score this morning:  http://670thescore.com/includes/news_items/36/1566/paxson.mp3

"I'm confident when talking to the league this will be addressed in an appropriate way."

Pax already talked with Stu Jackson this morning.

Deng, btw, went to Toronto early because of visa issues.  He hasn't had an MRI.

by KT on Dec 28, 2006 7:40 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

CSN
talked with Pax at practice today and he said he contacted Stu.

CSN also said that it was felt an MRI was not necessary on his wrist. The x-rays showed nothing which is good. Deng seems like the nicest guy and I hate that someone would intentionally hurt him.

Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 28, 2006 7:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Goons, Thugs and Pat Riley
It seems like Riles has always had goons on his teams and has endorsed (sort of) a kind of rough ball, and while there may or may not be anything wrong with that I think the difficulty lay in the judgment of committing a hard foul in the context of a game (i.e. unintentional intentional hard foul?) versus committing a hard foul (intentional intentional foul?) just to be a thug.

Riley's denigrating Hinrich as a thug (without necessarily using that word) while defending Posey, who IS a thug and seems to have it in for the Bulls given his history with Hinrich AND Tyrus Thomas and now Luol Deng, definitely suggests a pattern and I'm heartened to hear that this has been addressed with Stu Jackson. I hope something comes of it.

by soonerterp on Dec 28, 2006 10:46 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

The Moral High Ground
Basketball is a physical game.  In my personal life I am all about turning the other cheek.  However in a game like basketball where physical dominance is at a premium, especailly around the hoop, the Bulls should have retaliated physically.  1st game of the season he broke TT's nose.  Some sort of retaliation then might have sent a message to Posey and prevented his potentially devastating hard foul on Deng.  

You need to meet force with force.  It is easy to sit at the computer and take the moral high ground, transposing delicate sensibilities onto the basketball court.  But Bullies rarely respect that and the Heat are trying to bully us.  Without their starters it makes sense that the Heat were looking down the road and trying to either hurt Deng or just instill fear the Bulls.

Any retaliation be it a shove or a chest bump is sure to result in a suspension.  The Knickerbockers have been on a tear since the fight.  A Young Bulls team lacking size needs to show that when you mess with the Bull you're gonna get the horns.  I wish hard fouls and the need to retaliate were not part of the game, but they are.  
If the league is serious about its image it should give posey at least a five game suspension, not just to punish Posey but to reward the Bulls for not retaliating.  

by Zac23 on Dec 29, 2006 12:21 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I think it's just as easy
To sit at the computer and talk about retaliation and 'sending messages' when having no clue about what these players are actually going through, no matter how many old Norm Van Lier stories you hear.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 12:35 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Glory of the internet
is that sharing opinions no matter how outlandish or unfounded is easy.  But as a player in the NBA I do know exactly what players go thru and I am 100% right.

by Zac23 on Dec 29, 2006 9:17 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

tee-hee
I could or couldn't be an NBA player too!

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 29, 2006 9:24 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

i lost the bet....
paxjax said tee-hee

by milesgmsu on Dec 29, 2006 10:44 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I feel like PaxJax saying this, but . . . .
but you have no clue what you are talking about.  This isn't some after school special bullshit.
  1.  the "no retaliation" people on this board aren't appealing to morals.  If anything, it is amoral.  We are just talking wins and losses here, and retaliation, in the past game or in the future, will probably cost the bulls games.  Would you rather protect your machismo or risk a a bulls loss?  I'd take the bulls win and "send a message" by playing in June.  Look at the Spurs for a good example of this.
  2.  you are assuming that the league will do nothing to Posey.  In light of Artest, Davis, Knicks, that is a pretty bad assumption.
  3.  If you go after Posey in the next game, say with Sweetney, you risk losing the game.  What if the bulls lose by 2 because of the foul.  Would you rather have the loss or the foul?  What if that one game is the difference in a higher seed in the playoffs?  Posey's actions were by a desperate team, whose only tactic was to distract the Bulls from winning.  You would fall for that?
  4.  If you look at the youtube link I posted above, or any other of the NBA fights on youtube, you'll see how ridulous they are. It's one or two wild punches and a shove, and then they are pulled apart. And frankly, not worth having in any sort of premeditated fashion (which is what you are advocating).  If you are asking a team with Ben Wallace, who was involved in the worst fight ever, to start something, you are basically saying you'd rather have your "retaliation" and machismo, than a winning season.  You'd rather risk losing him and Skiles for the season than a win.
  5.  The Knicks have been on a tear because the fight shortened their rotation and got David Lee on the floor.  It has nothing to do with the fight.
  6.  Maybe back in the day, Wallace slugging Posey would have been the right thing to do after that foul, but not after what happened two years ago (Artest v. Pistons, Wallace), one year ago (Antonio Davis in stands), or last week (Knicks v. Denver).  It's a totally different environment now.  If Wallace had done something, the bulls season would have been over.  If you don't think Posey was trying to bait him into something like that, you are a fool.
  7.  If anything, this shows that the league's heavy suspensions for fighting are a little ridiculous.  Heavy suspensions, means players can't stick up for themselves on the court, which means assholes like Posey can deliver the first blow with impunity, and get players injured.  If the league doesn't have at least a 5 game suspension on Posey, direct your anger at the league, not the Bulls.  If anything, it takes more of a man to show some restraint in this situation than to fight. The league has made itself responsible for protecting the players from injury now that it has zero tolerance for fighting.  
I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 29, 2006 9:28 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

When u start to feel like Packs Jax u got problems
I suppose Acceptance and Awareness are the first step.

"Posey's actions were by a desperate team"-  true, but also the reigning NBA Champions.  The Heat realized the game was more about a possible meeting down the road.

"If anything, it takes more of a man to show some restraint in this situation than to fight"-  i love jesus and ghandi as much as the next guy but they never played hoops.

"If the league doesn't have at least a 5 game suspension on Posey, direct your anger at the league, not the Bulls."-  the Bulls are a team in the NBA and have to play the hand they are dealt.  A slap on the wrist for this foul (which BTW is getting no air time) means that they did not think it was a big deal ala "he was going for the ball".  The Bulls on the other hand most likely take the foul seriously as an attack on not just their team but also their safety and a slap on the wrist would prove that if they are not going to defend themselves nobody else is.  

"the "no retaliation" people on this board aren't appealing to morals.  If anything, it is amoral.  We are just talking wins and losses here, and retaliation, in the past game or in the future, will probably cost the bulls games." -  strong opinions on what might have happenned in a hypothetical situation.  Would having stars out for 10-15 games (meaning the Bulls retaliated even more than I am advocating) hurt our chances of winning?  yes i'm sure vegas oddsmakers would say so, but that is why they play the game(s).  We won that game against their scrubs  woo frickin whoo.    Maybe the experience for the bench would be invaluable come playoff time. different situation, but having amare gone last year paved the way for Diaw who otherwise woulda been sitting on the bench.  Maybe Sweets is our David Lee...(ok prolly not)

Hypothetical losses as a result of an imaginary fight are meaningless.  The Heat wanted to punish us, wanted to play rough and we backed down.  

by Zac23 on Dec 29, 2006 10:15 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Now it's just your vanity I am arguing with
because all you are saying is "I'm right, I'm right" while arguing against straw men which we haven't even said.  If you want a decent argument in your favor, try CookDing's above.  
I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 29, 2006 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Also meaningless:
Hypothetical messages in an imaginary retaliation?

And explain how 'we backed down'. (First of all, is there a mouse in your pocket?) The Bulls did the opposite of backing down, they won the game.

And if you want to play amateur sports psychologist some more, what's more likely occuring:

-The Heat 'play rough' on the Bulls, and the Bulls don't retaliate signifying they're not tough.

or.

-The Heat 'play rough' becuase they're frustrated that the Bulls ARE tough.

The fact that you could go for either proves that it's the results that matter. Fights either 'bring teams together' or 'tear teams apart' depending on how they fare in the next few games. It's complete hindsight.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Very well said, damn gwkd
Everyone should remember how the '91 Bulls got past the Pistons.  They didn't succumb to this kind of crap.  Rodman shoved Pippen into the basket support and the team said, "Fine - we'll just sweep your old asses." Then the Pistons proved their true character to the world by leaving the court early.

Think about how much support the Bulls engendered from, say, Celtic and Laker fans at the end of that game.  Oh, and six titles in eight years for The Bulls.  That was good, too...

Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Dec 29, 2006 10:18 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

perfect example
and thanks.  the bulls didn't beat the pistons by "retaliating."  They just whooped their asses by playing better basketball and ignoring all the cheap tactics by an inferior team.
I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 29, 2006 10:39 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Otstanding point
The Bulls were able to get past Detroit in 91 and they didn't retaliate to the Pistons tactics.  
But I think it had more to do with the Bulls being a far better team at that point.  But you're right.
But late in the 91 season Scott Williams got in a fight with Bill Laimbeer. Why? Because of Laimbeer's cheap play.  Do you think Phil, Scottie, or MJ cared that the Tank decided to mix it up with Laimbeer?  I enjoyed that one!

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:41 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

I just love
that the people on this topic that are in favor of retaliation are being painted as childish macho meatheads that want to solve all problems with there fist. I think both sides of the argument are right.  But the people who defend turning the other cheek just think that the people who support retaliation are foolish.

In game 7 of the 92 East semi finals Michael Jordan got in the face of Xavier McDaniel. The two were practically nose to nose cursing at each other. This was an elimination game!  Was Michael Jordan a fool for putting himself in that situation?  Jordan said that he was standing up to the bully.  The quote was something like that, it's in the Michael Jordan Airtime video.  Pat Riley's Knicks, had taken several cheap shots in that series. Starks clothesline on Pippen, we've all seen the highlites.  So was Jordan wrong? Would he have been suspended? No, but what "if" it escalated into something more?  No one wants retaliation because of the possibility it would escalate.  What if Jordan got kicked out of game 7?  The game might have been a blowout at the time but what "if" he got suspended for game one of the East Finals.  I just want to get people's thoughts on that.

And please stop trying to turn the fact that we want retaliation into "we don't want the Bulls to win" or "we don't care about players getting suspended" give me a break.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:16 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

I would like to see...
...those in favor of retaliation address Matt's salient points about the fact that the bottom line is wins and losses.  Can you please state how retaliating helps the Bulls win games?
Deng 4 MVP, 2008!

by corey williams corey benjamin on Dec 29, 2006 10:20 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Well no,
a retaliation wouldn't help the Bulls directly win a game. Scoring and defense help you directly win a game.  But it's like the bully analogy I made earlier.  Maybe plant the though in Posey's mind that dirty plays vs. the Bulls will not be accepted by the team.  Stand up for your teammates.  I don't think Luol Deng would object if someone got in Posey's face or if Wallace gave him a shove.

What if Deng broke his wrist and was out for the season?  Talk about wins and losses then.  I think some people would be thinking a little differently.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:32 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Ben Wallace
In my original post I stated that I would have liked to see a Ben Wallace shove.  I would have.  
I would have liked to see him go over and give Posey the kind of shove he gave Ron Artest at the Palace.  Just like Ron Artest, I feel that James Posey wouldn't even think of going at Ben Wallace because he knew he would probably get destroyed.  Would Ben Wallace get suspended for a shove? I don't think so. Ben Wallce didn't start the Palace brawl. The guy that thrwe the cup at Artest started the Palace brawl. Ron Artest going into the stands started the Palace bralw, not Ben Wallace.  
People keep saying that because of the Palace Ben Wallace can't respond in a aggressive manner. So if Ben Wallace gets a cheap shot from someone will he not do anything to defend himself because of what happened at the Palace?  An incident that wasn't his fault. That makes no sense to me.

What would the Heat do if a Bulls player took three seperate cheap shots at Heat players?  I think Shaq or obviously Posey, would be looking to return the favor.  Now people will say "let's not stoop to their level". Well they won the championship.  In a way did we stoop to a certain level when we got Rodman and he did some dirty plays?  It's like Rodman said in his first book "It's basketball, not boy scouts"

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:28 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

The Heat won the championship
because they were good, not because they'd use Posey and Shaq in a hypothetical message-sending moment.

I think the whole idea of psychological warfare through dirty tactics and retalitaion is completely overblown in terms of winning in the NBA. Just a way for people to pretend it's more complicated then this: Better teams win.

That's my disconnect with most of yous arguing the other side.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 10:36 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

not exactly
the Heat won because Dwayne Wade repeatedly got to the foul line and sank his shots.  You'll never convince me that a team sporting the ghost of Gary Payton, Jayson Williams and Antoine Walker is that good.  
Plus, I seem to recall Shaq tossing an elbow in like game one and giving Stackhouse (or some Mav) stitches.  I also recall the physical nature of the Heat and how Avery Johnson repeatedly stated that the Mavs were being intimidated out of contention.

by CookDing on Jan 2, 2007 8:10 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

okay Matt
I didn't say they won the championship because of that. Please stop putting words in my mouth.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:43 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

(FYI: hit 'reply' to the comment next time)
Now people will say "let's not stoop to their level". Well they won the championship.

I took that as to mean that them inflicting cheap shots helped them win a title.

My point is that it doesn't help or hurt, it's pretty much meaningless. I don't see how the league would view the Bulls as being any less tough now than they were on Tuesday. They probably still brace for playing against Nocioni and his flying 'bows.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 10:49 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Can someone
answer my Michael Jordan question about him going face to face with X in the 92 East semis?  Was Jordan wrong for putting himself in that position?  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:45 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

No
Cuz it's a moot point anyway.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 29, 2006 10:48 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No
It's becaue you can't. Because according to you and your opinion Michael Jordan would be wrong for doing such a fooolish thing.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:53 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's because
I don't care about an extremely minor and non-pivotal moment in the Bulls' history, and it adds nothing to the debate.  

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 29, 2006 10:59 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wasn't
a non pivitol moment to the greatest basketball player of all time.  

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 2:50 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wilt had retired by then,.
But seriously, save it for your scrapbook. Chances are Jordan doesn't even remember that.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 29, 2006 3:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Wow
I'm pretty sure he remembers.  
You still haven't answered the question J-Pax?  
Was Jordan foolish for doing that? Yes or No?  It's a simple question that you could even answer.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 3:49 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

It's a stupid question
I'm not going to answer. Relive it on DVD if Jordan talkin' tough is so spectacular, but please have some tissues or a rag handy.

by Paxson Jackson on Dec 29, 2006 4:05 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

your point
I don't think anyone would fault a Bull for going after Posey in a heat-of-moment retaliation, but that doesn't mean they think it would've helped any.

But after the fact I don't see any validity in thinking that doing 'nothing' hurt the team.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 10:52 AM CST up reply actions   0 recs

That's true too
I'm more defending my take then trying to prove you guys wrong. Again, I don't think either side is wrong.

Matt, I got to get you on to talk about this.  I sent you an email. Let me know if you can do something this weekend.  Later guys, gotta get back to work!

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 10:54 AM CST reply actions   0 recs

POSEY!
Suspended One game w no pay for foul on Loul Deng.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=2714015

by Goostafer on Dec 29, 2006 12:21 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

not enough
It should have been at least 2.  

I read somewhere that Rasheed Wallace did a Wade imitiation before a game at Miami - he fell down and whined that someone pushed him.  That would be great to show to every ref in the league.  

Posey's going to really hurt someone one of these days, and the league will be embarrassed.

by KT on Dec 29, 2006 12:51 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Weak
Pat Riley's PR campaign worked.  The Association doesn't care about right and wrong, only perception.  Which is too bad.

This doesn't change my opinion that I don't want the Bulls to head hunt now.  Be above it and take the high road.  If Posey happens to get fouled hard, fine.  But I don't want anyone going out of their way to do something just for the sake of doing something.  

by Moses Taylor on Dec 29, 2006 1:02 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Totally disagree
Once in the playoffs is maybe a "heat of the battle" type of thing.  But this is the third time.  Posey has definitely punk'd the bulls.  Somebody needs to let him know what's up.  It's not like that hit on Hinrich was good defense or a shot block gone awry.  Posey is a bully and there is only one way to deal with him.  Somebody needs to drop him.  Obviously not somebody in the starting five, but if Skiles doesn't make it happen, I could see Gordon doing it.  Otherwise, someone is going to get hurt seriously by that thug if Deng hasn't been already.

by bullshooter on Dec 29, 2006 1:16 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

There is no reason
why our guys should get themselves into trouble because of that idiot. What happened is the past... we are playing good and need to fix our problems internally, and not worry about what Posey or anyone out there wants to do on the court. They need to worry about the team. If something were to happen, then it's going to turn ugly. Plus, why would we want skiles to turn into Isaiah and send someone out to hurt him? Why do we want to be campared to the Knicks... and dont get me wrong, I want Posey hurt as much as anyone maybe more.. but it's just not smart, and he's not worth it.

by Goostafer on Dec 29, 2006 1:57 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Riley
Posey is a thug but I believe Riley is the one behind this.  Posey should have been suspended at least five games for this.  However, this is vintage Riley.  His objective is to get the Bulls off their game during the playoffs.  He wants the Bulls to be thinking about getting Posey instead of the game.  He would like someone to retaliate and then get suspended.  Winning teams think about winning not getting someone.  Despite the one game suspension Posey is a marked man.  If he does this again the suspension will be severe.  But don't fool yourself, Riley is behind this.  He wants us to respond to this sucker punch and foolishly respond.  Paxson is too smart to fall for Riley's folly.  We shouldn't be suckered into this either.
chgobr

by chgobr on Dec 29, 2006 2:08 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

No justice
One game is nothing. That is a disgrace.
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 29, 2006 3:27 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

How long was Hinrich suspended...
for "intentional hand holding"?  5 games?

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 29, 2006 12:45 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Intentional hand holding
You could get suspended from grade-school for doing that at a sock-hop.

by Freethefro on Dec 29, 2006 12:58 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

1 GAME! 1 FU*&%ING GAME????????
That's it.  Jan 27th...Khryapa has to be sent in with one job.  Ending Posey's Career.  

by dcarioca on Dec 29, 2006 1:17 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Well so much
for this new crackdown on violence NBA.  Like I've said several times in this thread.  The NBA is inconsistent with punishments.  15 games for Anthony for throwing one punch, but one for Posey on a third incident. The last one that could of ended Deng's season.  

Well the one game suspension in the playoffs last year didn't stop Posey. I don't expect this slap on the wrist to make a difference either.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 2:36 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

Don't think a shove from Malik Allen would either
I do think the punishment is weak. If the league wanted to stop fighting so much they should crackdown on stuff that leads to fights, whether they do or not. So I wouldn't expect the same punishment as Anthony, but maybe the same as Mardy Collins.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 29, 2006 2:44 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

suspension too short
But perhaps it was short (in additon to Rileys, Shitty, but beautifully done, PR campaign) because deng wasn't hurt. Had deng been out indef, I could have seen a 5-10 game suspension by the league.

At least ESPN put this on the cover of the NBA page and didn't bury it....but it still was below the hinrich/wade piece

by milesgmsu on Dec 29, 2006 6:21 PM CST up reply actions   0 recs

Right
I didn't expect 15. I was just pointng out the inconsistency of punishments in the NBA.
To me what Posey did is just as bad as Anthony's one sucker punch.
But NY hype is the difference.

by Kerrminator25 on Dec 29, 2006 2:52 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

An easy formula to determine suspension
A Type 2 flagrant foul, like the one called on Posey, really should have the suspension determined by how long the player who was fouled is out (assuuming he was injured). That kind of foul is intentional by definition. So if Posey only gets a 1-game suspension and Deng is out 1 game because he's injured, that's a wash and really not fair.

What if Deng is out two or more games because of his wrist? Then Posey should be suspended for the same amount of time.
It's a simple formula that can be applied to all Type 2 flagrant fouls. Maybe you want to put a cap on the suspension if the guy who was fouled ends up being out for the season, but this could be a deterrent to unnecessary fouls once this kind of rule is enforced.

by Evam on Dec 29, 2006 5:48 PM CST reply actions   0 recs

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