I refuse to over-dramatize headbands with an over-dramatic headline
**UPDATED BELOW**
I don't think the Wallace-Skiles headband 'feud' (My thoughts are this: the team's rule may be stupid, but Wallace defying it is completely wrong.) is much to fret over until we see what happens next game or at least get some quotes. I don't see the no-headband rule being lifted, so either Ben plays or he's benched and/or suspended. A headband likely has little use when you don't get in the game, but Wallace seems to really like wearing them.
So until the great standoff, (and hopefully there's some resolution before Tuesday's game) I thought it'd be interesting to look at these differing quotes on Ben Wallace.
One is from Detroit News writer Chris McCosky (hat tip to Need4Sheed):
Is Ben unhappy in Chicago? Yes, he is. He's not throwing in the towel, but the transition hasn't been pleasant. When Skiles and John Paxson came to Ben's house over the summer to make their recruiting pitch, Ben asked Skiles point-blank if there was anything he needed to know about him, his coaching style or his personal preferences. Skiles told him no, he loved Ben just as he was. But the minute Ben signed the contract, Skiles pulled him aside and told him that he could no longer wear the headbands and arm bands that had been his trademark in Detroit. Strike one.
Skiles has also embarrassed Ben during practice several times -- stopping practice to make him tuck in his shirt and ordering him to tape his ankles (which Ben never does) -- silly power-trippy things like that. Strike two.
And now Skiles is yo-yoing him in and out of games -- the ultimate indignity to Ben. Strike three? Nah, probably just a foul tip. Like I said, there's too much at stake for Ben to blow it up this quickly. But, these are not fun times in the Windy City.
I've never read this guy before, and don't like letting biases automatically invalidate columnists' opinions (My Skiles-love probably costs me some journalistic cred, if I had any), but obviously he seems like a Wallace fan. Plus, since he lead one post by gloating over his prediction that a Wallace-Skiles feud would occur by Thanksgiving, he at the least seems like kindof an ass.
While maybe also an ass(to some), Sam Smith is still my guy. I was kindof surprised at his full-bore assault on Wallace:
It was the essence of selfish behavior and contrary to the team ethic Wallace is said to endorse.
Sure, you run the risk of further alienating Wallace. What then? Is he going to retire? I wondered two weeks ago watching his play whether he had.
There's plenty of opportunity for Wallace to be the player the Bulls thought they were getting and the team to have an excellent season. Wallace always played best with a chip on his shoulder, when he felt least respected and would show everyone. What better chance than now?
Because if the Bulls don't stand up and establish the authority of the team, this has the potential for an ugly resolution.
This, by the way, is nothing new for Wallace.
Just last season, he refused to enter a game late in the season because he was angry at something, usually a lack of a role in the offense. That's laughable because he shoots like an injured ostrich. I always felt the Pistons' playoff meltdown started when he openly challenged the authority of new coach Flip Saunders late in the regular season by declining to enter a game. In the playoffs, it was a virtual team rebellion.
Before this season started, Wallace in an ESPN interview blasted Saunders and commended all his former coaches, bringing giggles to all as Wallace had previously blasted them. He's an oversensitive, easily embarrassed, remote soul. I noticed him seeming to limp during the Friday game when he was benched and he was off for some MRI Sunday. His history, despite the supposed "warrior" mentality, is to come up with some small injury when things aren't going well to explain the issue, usually poor free-throw shooting.
Pistons players say Wallace has burned up the cell-phone satellites to them in recent weeks complaining about the Bulls, Skiles and signing in Chicago.
My guess is the Bulls would gladly take the money and send him back.
I recommend reading through both links in their entirety, but you get the point that they are two completely different depictions of Ben Wallace, with Sam Smith essentially calling him a fraud. And with the early returns I'd side more with him than what's coming out of Detroit.
So, Ok, I ended the Sam quote at that sentence for effect. The following lines make the most sense:
These things happen in pro sports. It's not like players have to like whom they play for. I don't recall many parties for Jerry Krause. And it wasn't like the Pistons were hanging out with Larry Brown. You play, be professional and enjoy the rewards.
He's not going to be traded (if you suggest and explore possibilities in this space you will be deemed blog-a-bull moron), and unless he's completely self-centered Ben Wallace isn't going to submarine the season just a dozen games into it.
Update: KC Johnson has the scoop on the organization's next steps:
Wallace played after the injury, which neither he nor coach Scott Skiles addressed in New York. Paxson hopes similar solidarity will ensue once this public dispute fades.
There's plenty there on the "brewing" insubordination of Wallace, with his dislike of taped ankles and headphones-only locker rooms, to name a couple instances with the team's rules. Also, Johnson writes the no-headband rule may be originating from owner Jerry Reinsdorf.
UPDATE 2: KC has the word from practice today, where Wallace and Pax had a talk. Quote the Pax:
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If I had
I recall Scott Skiles
I never glorified Ben Wallace or really expected great play from him, and I loathe attitude discussions for various reasons. I am still pretty shocked at Sam Smith describing Big Ben as a highly paid JYD-esque fraud. There is still time to turn this around, and this is only one player.
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 1:42 AM CST reply actions
it's all so strange
All teams have rules, some more rules than the Bulls (Nate McMillan is a much tougher coach than Skiles and has lots more rules). It seems it isn't so much about the rules, than about Ben having trouble adapting. For all his unhappiness with Saunders, he still loved his teammates in Detroit, and that's not an easy thing to switch off.
For $60 mill, you do what your coach asks you to do to make the team win. It's that simple and should be to every free agent. Why it isn't has never made sense to me.
60 million reasons to listen to skiles
the flip side of this is competitiveness
seriously, if he feels like he is losing some type of psychological "edge" with this, whatever that is, he's the only judge of that, like war paint or something. After a zero rebound night, he might of felt like he needed it.
the fact that this became a problem is that he may be just slightly dopey and tone deaf, and his agent is an idiot if Ben didn't know about the headband rule, or would have refused to sign a contract.
to me, this is really a non-problem. it's not like he's defying any laws or anything
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2006/11/26/hail_to_the_chief/
oops, there I go being political again, feel free to throw e-tomatoes at me.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 9:32 AM CST reply actions
I was hoping
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 10:00 AM CST up reply actions
wacky tabacky?
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
I think Sam's point
Lets not get into the cultural or first amendment significance of this. I wouldn't be surprised if FreeDarko.com already had a draft ready to go.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 10:24 AM CST up reply actions
which is my point
Ben's thought process after a zero rebound night: with headband on Pistons means more rebounds, without headband on Bulls means less rebounds; ergo wear headband.
Whether he would he was also trying to show up skiles and ruffle some feathers was secondary or not even considered.
and now I'm off to work.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 10:35 AM CST up reply actions
good point
KC's (and others) reporting on the stuff going on in practice makes it seem that Wallace was trying to get under Skiles' skin...whether in the pursuit of better play (i.e., return to the 'old ben') or not.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 10:39 AM CST up reply actions
I agree
If anyone has taken a peek at the Tribune's coverage of this you would think Ben Wallace killed someone over the weekend. It's too bad Sam's best line, "I didn't see anyone second-guessing the signing when it occurred, so it would be hypocritical to condemn it now," was forced to page 2.
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 10:30 AM CST up reply actions
i think...
Keep the politics
read above
Frankly, the bulls should just get rid of the rule if it will help Ben feel more comfortable and confident and get more rebounds. This is the same team that let Rodman paint his head like a snow cone. This isn't some inane Darius Miles headband and double "L" on the forehead thing from his clipper days.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 11:51 AM CST up reply actions
I'm still
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
etan would fit better on the pistons
http://www.truehoop.com/leaguewide-issues-55630-you-should-listen-to-chad-fords-podcasts.html
scroll down to first bullet point for synopsis of Chad Ford's interview with Joe Dumars, or just listen to the interview.
I'm starting to annoy myself, and my boss. ;)
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 1:03 PM CST up reply actions
perspective
So if Sam thinks that Wallace's stunt is beyond petulence and is actually trying to undermine the coach (and he uses his bad-guy characterization to back that up), that's his opinion and that IS a big deal in terms of the team.
The degree of Wallace's insubordination is entirely unknown to us, and less unknown to those who cover the team. If they think it's a big deal then they can write it as so. If they're just trying to sell papers, then well...they should realize nobody cares and they only follow the Bears, so it's probably not worth it. :-D
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 12:35 PM CST up reply actions
wait and see
me thinks...
I hope
I wonder what impression this is making on the rookies?
Step away from the ledge everyone
I know it's not popular to side with underperforming multi-millionaires, but I'm with Wallace on this one. Why can't he wear his normal gear? I think the headband/wristbands look cool on him. Sports are filled without little superstitions/idiosyncrasies. Also, who the hell is Skiles to tell Wallace that he needs to tape his ankles? It's hypocritical for the Bulls to ask Wallace to bring his style of play to Chicago - and then ask him to change the very routine that made him the player he is. It's not like he's wearing Pistons gear or something. If the headband makes him feel more comfortable on the court, and thus, the Bulls a better team, let him wear it!
Everyone knows that with the big contract - comes the most intense scrutiny. Maybe the Bulls should think about making this huge transition for Wallace easier, instead of harder.
Wallace or Skiles?
Paxson visits with Wallace--again
Updated story at the tribune. Funniest line of the story : "Skiles, who once as a player fought Shaquille O'Neal in practice, seemed almost giddy in talking about the incident, saying it could promote team unity."
it has to be asked...
by kaptainkirk23 on Nov 27, 2006 2:42 PM CST reply actions
gwkd, Jobu, etc view points are correct!
wallace is not trying to openly defy Skiles. This issue is far more serious than the $60 million so many openly express. Wallace most likely will get his 60 million, regardless. He'll conform, to a degree, if that's what skiles wants. But, believe me it will be with a large price. Greater than the initial (4-9 win loss record), and a bone-head signing by Paxson and Skiles that will be detrimental to their career.
This team rule is flat out stupid! Period! Probably will rank higher than anything that Isiah Thomas has done. Pay attention, D.Stern is using a bit more discretion in his attempt to transform NBA players play into business causal.
Noci wears those long armband, how can Skiles unfairly justify certain athletic garments? Head band and arm bands serve a purpose for a person who perspires much!
Had a "familiar" to skiles" coached the Bulls in the 90's, this Skiles clone with bonehead rules probably would have attempted to force MJ from wearing his N.Carolina blues underneath his shorts.
Sam Smith article is "kiss butt" Bulls brass, as usual, and totally void of the real implications why Wallace feels so strongly about wearing his head band.
Does anyone really care to know why Wallace feels so strongly about this issue?
Wallace is an african-american who witnesses a plight in american still in year 2006 which most don't come to understand. Regardless, of the fact that he is a NBA millionaire, when wallace wakes up in the morning, or leaves the basketball court he is still a black man in america. What is next? take away his head band, then his corn rolls "braids", then his fro, if possible eunuchize him, and finally his dignity.
Really too much is at stake, back off Skiles & Paxson
Wallace is proven, he is no e.Rob, (side note: actually black men who prefer to wear longer hair, "braided hair" serves a purpose, unfortunate it seems to be associated with "gangster rap, etc") This issue might get larger than Chicago Bulls???
(over)use of ctrl-B aside...
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 2:52 PM CST up reply actions
Married?
If you do ...It will make the reworking of the first amendment seem as a cake walk...
Worse!
If only Hakeem was coaching none of this would've happened. ;-)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 3:06 PM CST up reply actions
Are you sure
18 rebounds for one game this year; tyson (ty1) doesn't seems so bad in comparison to this wallace situation, thus far. Plus he wears his hair short and no headband .....
Is it just me
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
Ben
Seriously Ben is a great guy. But Ben does not like change and Chicago is very different. In Detroit, players listen to music (the captain, Ben, was in charge of picking it)wear what they like, act as they like, and have input on all aspects of the organization. The Joe Dumars is a very "player-first" GM and will sacrifice coaches for his players.
Ben has never had to adjust who he was for the Pistons because Dumars made sure the coaches adjusted. He is always on their side. Last year this got out of hand because Flip is a push over so Ben went to Chicago thinking he actually wanted such a structured coach. He was dead wrong.
With that being said Ben will eventually give in IF Skiles meets him halfway. Ben has a lot of pride and it seems that Skiles is belittling it.
On a side note, Chris is a great journalist. The players love him and really tell him thins no one else can get out of them. Hell, even Sheed has talked to him openly. He summed up exactly what Ben has been for the last six years. If I was Chicago I would swallow my pride and call the Detroit players for help with this because they have a way of getting through to Ben. He is very complex and difficult to understand but in the end really, he is a good guy who I would love to have back, pride an all.
by Detroit on Nov 27, 2006 3:29 PM CST reply actions
thanks Detroit!
"In Detroit, players listen to music (the captain, Ben, was in charge of picking it)wear what they like, act as they like, and have input on all aspects of the organization. The Joe Dumars is a very "player-first" GM and will sacrifice coaches for his players." ????
How about a refocus? ...
Detroit? of all teams, the starting five all african americans (a different type of diversity?). They probably didn't mind listening to Ben's music? What were we "Chicago Bulls" thinking when we signed Ben and set out as a goal to model the 2004 Pistons? Bulls must take responsibility with this issue, and not put it all on Ben and the outdated team rule.
(Not intend to be offensive to african americans or Ben's music, just dealing with a issues)
Now we,
Chicago, have the opportunity to truly embrace Diversity, the different type also, and make Ben feel welcome, so that he will give us his best..... As far as a model goes..., similiar to Matt's legal issues with his legs.. I wouldn't get paid to do it?
Make adjustments to the model.
day 1: everybody listen to rap/soul music
day 2: "" to Swedish music
day 3: "" to pop/rock music
day 4: "" to english(london) music
day 5: "" to spanish
day 6: "" to country and what ever I missed
day 7: the day of rest...
Ben give/take a little, Skiles give/take a little. And one day we'll see wallace in a big cowboy hat, and kirk with a "do" rag celebrating NBA championship with the Bulls in grant park...
ummm...
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 5:11 PM CST up reply actions
great!
More inside info:
Not that I believe I've laid out the funny for anyone, but wow.
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 5:43 PM CST up reply actions
Why not just let the winner
And you need Argentinian music - not at all the same as Spanish.
Ben
All I was saying is that it seems that Chicago has a lot of rules and in Detroit there were barely any to follow. No sweatband rules, no tucking in shirts in PRACTICE, no curfews, and no controlling locker room settings. Hell, we didn't start forcing players to arrive on time for plane rides until this year. Chicago should use Detroit as an example in this aspect because as Ben has clearly showed our locker room is the closest in the NBA.
Ben, more than anything, seems like he feels he is controlled and lied to there. Listening to Chauncey talking about Ben, I would be scared if I was a Chicago fan. Chauncey basically said Ben has questioned his decision since day one.
Ben is not a trouble maker, if things aren't going his way he will remain quiet for a long time before he explodes, and now it seems he has exploded. Chicago has more than likely ignored him and this is why he has acted like this.
On a side note, seriously, what kind of stupid rule is no sweatbands??? They are harmless and could not possibly affect team unity more than not allowing them has. And while I'm at it, what kind of rule is forcing a player to tape his ankles, especially when Ben has never hand ankle problems although he did everything tape free here? Skiles needs to stop being a control freak and let his team grow up. No wonder they are called the baby bulls.
by Detroit on Nov 28, 2006 9:34 AM CST up reply actions
I find this statement
Forcing
Two years ago under Larry Brown, Carlos Arroyo was late and all that happened to him was that he had to pay for his own flight and book it himself.
by Detroit on Nov 29, 2006 11:08 AM CST up reply actions
They are grown
q
But until this year when Flip got skip of being completely disrespected nothing was done. I don't know its how the pistons run things. Last year Sheed was late for a game because he overslept and nothing happened, Ben refused to re-enter a game and Sheed followed by saying he had back spasm or whatever and nothing happened, Flip would call a play only to have Chaunce change it and even this year Flip makes rules only to have players call them stupid.
The man suggested Zone and they acted like he had asked they kill a prophet. Sheed called it stupid, Tay, the so-called quiet one, said zone was for high school and so on. Not to mention this is all after the past year when they absolutely did not play it at all because Ben said so.
The pistons are cool but that is something they should work on. These guys might be overall mature enough to handle it but once our team gets younger again we will have problems.
by Detroit on Nov 29, 2006 3:44 PM CST up reply actions
How can Ben stand the indiginity
The rules may not be
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 4:16 PM CST up reply actions
business-like group
Whether it's still necessary with the players he's brought in since taking the job is questionable, although Wallace was sure acting unprofessional on Friday...so maybe it is.
But you're right, it's a far cry from what looked to be the Pistons (especially post-title) attitude, and whether better or worse for the team it's an adjustment for Ben.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
I realize you were being sarcastic,
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 4:18 PM CST up reply actions
Photos: This argument gets more dumbererererer
Pictures on bulls.com website of Ben in a headband:
http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/wallace_picasso_060815.html
http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/wallace_large_060713.jpg
http://www.nba.com/media/bulls/BIGBENsplash.gif
Pictures from last year of Ben on Pistons where he is not wearing a headband:
http://photostore.nba.com/perl/gal/nba?process=gallery&gallery_id=924
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 5:15 PM CST reply actions
Bulls.com: Ben in headband selling season tix
don't forget the shifting banner on the right with a picture of the matador wearing a headband. And also another shifting banner to the farther right showing ben in a headband, again, selling tix.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 5:20 PM CST up reply actions
And an ad in Sam Smith's tribune
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 5:56 PM CST up reply actions
Do the
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 27, 2006 6:15 PM CST up reply actions
jesse jackson
there is a photo in the "photo gallery" on the right of the peacemaker, Jesse Jackson, wearing a headband. Picture 9 of 9.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 6:21 PM CST up reply actions
video of jesse w/ fro & headband, hugging Ben
can't tell if headband is part of the wig or if j.j. used that separately.
hope that's my last post.
by GWKD on Nov 27, 2006 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
Mark Stein addresses the issue
The focus has been on Wallace's meager statistics -- just 9.2 rebounds and 1.5 blocks per game -- but it should be on his perpetual unhappiness so far. You can rationalize a slow adjustment on the floor, given how much has changed for Wallace and his new teammates. It'd be a far greater concern to me, if this were my team, to see how sullen Wallace has looked since getting his riches.
That's what struck me when I spent a night with the Bulls on Nov. 14. They were still only 3-3, as opposed to their current 4-9, but Wallace seemed more withdrawn in the locker room than I can ever remember. Which is saying something, since he's always been a brooder. He's playing with no joy, none of the fire that (along with his hair and the bell) made him famous in Detroit, and I struggle to believe it's all because Skiles won't let him wear a headband.
My theory? The Bulls gave Wallace the payday he always dreamed of, but Wallace gave up more than he ever realized. It's not just the teammates he left behind in Motown. Signing that big contract wiped away the unwanted/unloved/underdog image he's thrived on for years. He can't be that guy any more.
You've heard plenty about how the Pistons miss Wallace covering for their defensive mistakes, but Wallace clearly misses being around big-name vets who eat up a good deal of spotlight themselves and allow him to be a hard-hat man of the people.
The rest of this is here: http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&id=2677757
Great catch,
by Robbo on Nov 27, 2006 9:55 PM CST up reply actions
Great article
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 27, 2006 11:49 PM CST up reply actions
All of this
Thank God we play the Knicks tomorrow.
To Steal One From Iverson...
HeadBands?
Headbands?
Headbands?
Seriously it should NOT be a BIG deal especially the way Ben has been playing... It's still early in the season!!! We Will Make It!!!
...I hope...Bring Chandler back!!! (Compton)
by JCP233 on Nov 28, 2006 1:59 AM CST reply actions
wallace
Sorry
by goathair3 on Nov 28, 2006 10:55 AM CST reply actions
Send your apology to
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 28, 2006 11:19 AM CST up reply actions
Absurd
Besides, lets not lose sight of the fact that this league is about entertainment, first and foremost. I read this Paxon quote today "It's not about stifling creativity, its about uniformity"; huh? there's a difference? Why the hell are Stern and GMs like Paxon obsessed with dampening the player's personalities, making them "uniform"? Who the hell wants to see a bunch of nondescript robots out there? To hell with that, these guys are supposed to be warriors, let them wear their war paint: headbands around their necks and arms, baggy shorts, tattoos, dyed hair, cornrolls, 7-foot afros-- whatever pumps them up. I want them to play out of their minds, if that means they have to wear "non-uniform" headbands, so be it. This is isn't high school basketball, this is the NBA for crying out loud.
ugh
I'm not sure where to start: new NBA uniform rules or likening the NBA to pro wrestling? Maybe cornrows not 'cornrolls'?
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 28, 2006 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
uff
Considering the W and L
And there's only one Tru Warier.
by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Nov 28, 2006 12:32 PM CST up reply actions
f
by kaptainkirk23 on Nov 28, 2006 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
Just to let everyone know
doesn't appear to be over yet
For now dismiss skiles out, based on feedback of the postings. Then that leaves Jerry R. (owner), Paxson and Wallace?
If possible, apply quick action and fix the situation. It's seems clear, that the headband rule is not a good rule.
This is not a private catholic college team, this team is majority owned by JR. Paxson needs to take action and pick his battles wisely (with players, coaches and with owners). It really would help if Paxson would say "I'll revisit this rule ASAP", and if necessary privately have a "Man Law" lunch with Jerry R. to gets his approval to eliminate/modify the rule. How much is he (Jerry R. or Paxson) really giving up? Not much at all, actually they would be gaining. This will not degrade their authority any, or start a landslide precedence. Now, if Paxson is only doing what his employer asked and has received no compromise direction, then Jerry R. should make a "the buck stops here" statement so Paxson can move on to attempt to reap benefit from the 60 million dollar signing! A ben.wallace "half concession", is not positive, especially when the "rule" principle is questionable.. A delayed, slow wrongful battle evenually will be lost, yet will be costly and take many more casualties.
All of this
well..
I agree, Wallace may not be without error in this situation?, but he may have calculated, evenually a larger "battle" would ensue369 and have more potency to help make this new relationship work. (As oppose to frustrating ticky-tacky individual headband, armband, ipod, etc. discussions each week).
While, no NBA organization likes public negotiations, "going public" is player risky, yet will continue to occur and will benefit the player when the cause has some perceived public injustice (or in this case "ignorance in regards to a bad rule").
Just to add
That was a
yo
Wallace said ex-Pistons teammate Clifford Robinson helped him start his practice of wearing a headband.
"He told me I should try it and that's a reminder not to let my head get too big in this league," Wallace said.
i thought he was blunt abd honest about how he felt he wasnt comfortbale yet and he just "felt like wearing it" lol....thats no primadonna my way or the highway typa guy....i think we're gonna be alrite with this one...
by kaptainkirk23 on Nov 28, 2006 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
So, why didn't they bother to tell him about . . .
ok, sure. I'm sure it would've gone like this
Wallace: Sweet...
JWD: but we must warn you...you can't wear headbands.
Wallace: well take your extra $10m+ over any other offer and shove it up your ass!
(if anyone finds the link that had something similar please post it....it didn't have cussin' though.)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 28, 2006 1:32 PM CST up reply actions

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