Game Thread #30: Bulls vs. Milwaukee Bucks (UPDATE BELOW)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2006 2:49 PM CST in News Comment 22 comments

So it's come to this: Wondering why the Bulls didn't keep Adrian Griffin.

The Bulls had a decent showing on New Years Eve, at least looking somewhat inspired before losing in overtime (their 6th straight loss) to Phoenix. I was only half-watching the game between new years beers, while feeling bad for the holiday crowd that not only had to see a loss but had to stay through the extra period to do so.

The rotation was definately noteworthy, as the Bulls had a starting lineup of Hinrich/Gordon/Duhon/Deng/Chandler. Not only did Sweetney get removed from the starting lineup, but he didn't play the entire game. Could be the Suns unorthodox style, or some bad practices from Sweetney. I guess we'll find out Monday night as the Bucks wouldn't pose the same matchup problems the Suns did for him.

The Bucks lost TJ Ford recently, but his backup Mo Williams may be even better, with 30 and 24-point outputs his last 2 games. I'm sure there will much to-do about the Bulls' relative lack of height against Bogut, Maggloire and Gadzuric. Kirk will also have his defensive work cut out for him defending Michael Redd.

I'll be at the UC with bells on. May the new year bring a win. pllllleeeeaaaassse.

UPDATE: Bulls lose again. Join us in the comments where the bitch session is in full force.

Meanwhile I will try and photoshop Bulls jerseys on Paul Pierce.

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See you at the game

I really hope he starts Deng at the 2. Duhon / Gordon on the second squad sounds really good and should give the Bulls a backcourt advantage most of the season's minutes.

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 2, 2006 6:47 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

you were close

Deng started at the 4.

wait, that's not close.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2006 10:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

nobody wants to be the man

what a poor last play. i thought gordon would have demanded it, who knows maybe he did but didn't get it, but then again that's his fault. somebody has to take control of the team on the court.

also--it's so annoying when our guards lay it up so weakly. dunk the f'in ball ben!

by CRG on Jan 2, 2006 10:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Things I've noticed and hate

I don't know if I've said this here or only to CRG, but every pick Sweet Tooth sets is illegal. I think the refs are being munificent in only calling it once or twice a game. Today it was once, when we were rolling along. It caused us to have him and Tyson sit with 2 fouls and we were little all game. I guess it did force Othella into action tonight and he had a very good shooting game.
Nocioni is a horrible post player. He tries to back in to draw the double team and pass out, but he's so slow that it gets tipped most of the time.
Michael Redd can shoot.
Same old story tonight - when the jump shots fall, we cruise. Eventually, inexorably, we get cold and then we will give up 15 points in a short span. Tonight, that was the third quarter.
While Duhon has improved, he still has the ability to annoy me with his "extra" pass. I guess getting praised for it all throughout school as a display of his selflessness on the court ingrained it in him. All it does on this level is make an open shot a contested shot except that it's not with 17 seconds left, it's with 6, and it's always on the perimeter.
Ben Gordon does Marlon Brando pretty well.
Jannero Pargo is like cheap booze. You only want to get real drunk real quick a few times a year. But the rest of the time, you'd be best advised to sip your Old-Fashioned slowly. Pargo has similar utility.
Deng IS having his breakout game. I love it.
Skiles is pissing me off with this 3 guard lineup. We're not skilled enough to run it at all three spots and on top of that, Deng's 6'7" as the 4.

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 2, 2006 10:40 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Deng

I meant breakout season

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 2, 2006 10:40 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Lots of great points

Especially #s 5, 7, 9.

I'm not sold on #8 yet, Deng was really frustrating me today with the turnovers.

I really wish Hinrich wasn't playing out of position so we'd know if his bad shooting is something to really worry about. I have a feeling if he was the full-time point guard he wouldn't be struggling so much.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 2, 2006 10:45 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

I'm willing to bet

body parts that hinrich is struggling mainly due to playing out of position. MJ was the greatest, but have him play PF on both ends of the court and watch him suck. I like CRG's ideas of new lineups. In some, he has Gordon at SG and hinrich at PG. I think Hinrich's defense and offense from the point outweigh Gordon getting lit up by the other team's off guard. Plus, Gordon can score on anyone when he feels it.

In some ways, Hinrich has regressed and that is illogical from such a young player with apparently good practice habits. He's out of position and it shows.

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 3, 2006 2:47 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

good points; replies

Sweets definitely has to learn how to stand still, but he's just so...jiggly!
Duhon is definitely the most annoying w/that extra pass! How much longer can we seriously have him as our starting pg? It's got to be Hinrich-Gordon-Deng at 1-2-3.
Hilarious. You get bonus marks for that one.
Deng can't dribble tho, as much as he liked to show that he was dribbling with his left hand in the off-season.
Yeah it's gimicky. Skiles, suck it up: bench Duhon.

by CRG on Jan 2, 2006 10:55 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

So true...

I'm in total agreement about Duhon making the "extra" pass cuz it keeps leading to the "extra" turnover. I thought there were signs that he was starting to shoot those short jumpers and actually taking it to the hoop in the past few games, but with the pressure on, he reverts to his old habits. He doesn't have that killer instinct and certainly lacks the over-all confidence in his shot.

Lately Gordon has tried to dribble way too much, and it's ball-hog, fancy-pants dribbling, the kind that leads to rebounders being out of position. One dribble, one ball fake are usually enough, but he seems to be taking one too many dribbles.

Have you seen a team lose a double-digit lead more quickly and more often than the Bulls?

They have no transition game or transition defense either. I swear the Bulls have had more three point plays against them than I've ever seen before.

This is tiring; I'm wanna smile about the Bulls, but I don't even see anything to be hopeful about except next season.

Sorry.

Kidd2323

by james@lifeinthecell on Jan 2, 2006 11:26 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

The Truth!

Matt - don't worry about using PhotoShop, let's find a way to make Paul Pierce a reality! I've been campaigning for Pierce since you were on the last site and I mentioned him in my first post on the new site http://www.blogabull.com/story/2005/9/16/12419/7483

Salary wise, Tim Thomas can be dealt straight up for Pierce - but that will never happen. I would guess that the C's would require the Bulls take on one of their horribly overpaid big men: Blount or LaFrentz. If it's Blount, that's an easier pill to swallow. He has roughly 4 years/$29 mil remaining and the Bulls could mix/match contracts to get it done. Operating under the perception that Hinrich, Deng, and Chandler are untouchable - any combination of Thomas/Duhon & either Pike, Gordon, Nocioni, or Sweetney works for Pierce/Blount. If it's LaFrentz, the deal would become larger b/c Lafrentz is paid roughly twice what Blount is. Throwing in Harrington to one of the aforementioned scenarios works under the current CBA and give the C's a post player to replace Blount/LaFrentz.

It's also likely that one of the Bulls #1 picks would be thrown into the mix. The Knicks pick from the Curry deal currently projects to the 4th pick in the draft. It's unlikely that the pick will be more attractive as the season progresses b/c Larry Brown's teams almost always get better. This is why the Bulls should move quicker sooner rather then later. Maybe offer the Bulls own pick first, and then concede on the Knicks pick to close the deal.

Paxon has had a lot of success manipulating one rival guard from the 1980's (Isiah). Let's hope he can do the same with Ainge!

by Jobu on Jan 3, 2006 3:53 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

it would take Gordon + Deng + NY Draft Pick

for Pierce + Blount.

So the Bulls lineup would be:
PG Hinrich, SG Pierce, SF Nocioni, PF Chandler, C Blount

Celtics:
PG Gordon?, SG Davis, SF Deng, PF/C Lafrentz, PF/C Jefferson

With our pick we could draft the best SF or Big possible. I'm not sure if we'd have enough money to sign Al Harrington in the off-season, but if that was possible we'd be one of the top teams with:

PG Hinrich, SG Pierce, SF Harrington, PF Chandler, C Blount.

We would also have to hope Pierce re-signs with us in 2 years, otherwise we're ruined.

Ah, gotta love trade fantasies!

by CRG on Jan 3, 2006 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

+ Thomas

oops forgot about that. So:

Thomas + Gordon + Deng + NY Pick for:

Pierce + Blount.

by CRG on Jan 3, 2006 4:09 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

if I were Pax i'd do it.

Pierce is a superstar, currently 10th in the league in PER. A go-to guy who is outstanding at drawing fouls. He would become the dominant force and leader of the team. Hinrich moves to his natural position. Pierce would get on Chandler to contribute. Blount can score and he's 7-feet tall. He would pair-up nicely with Chandler allowing TC to move his natural PF position. We would need only a couple minor pieces to contend. The 2006 Chi pick and 2007 swap with NYC would be huge additions once you have PP to build around. PP would be great at luring FAs.

Gordon and Deng will never be PP-calibur.

Caveat: I doubt Ainge would do this trade.

by CRG on Jan 3, 2006 4:27 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Deng

Nothing new from me, except to say I agree about Gordon but believe Deng can be a good offensive player WITH the bonus of being a good defender. That might be PP caliber. Plus, he doesn't seem like a pompous jerk like Pierce does. He's only 20!!

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 3, 2006 10:04 PM CST up reply actions 0 recs

Pierce is worth trading assets for

You're right. he is a superstar. And he completely fills the big guard need, pushing Hinrich back to the 1.

If I were Pax I'd try my damndest to get Duhon in the trade instead of Deng. They need a PG (although with pierce gone they'd need a SF too), and maybe think Duhon is a good one (tee hee)

Thomas+Gordon+Duhon+NYK Pick for Pierce+Banks

Especially if Ainge insists the Bulls take Blount back in any deal..then to match blount you have throw in expiring deals like Pike, Othella, Allen etc.

Ainge may push for Hinrich (since he's a better PG, and perhaps more importantly: white) but I'd have him/deng/chandler (chandler if only b/c of his BYC trade status) untouchable. Pierce makes Gordon superfluous, so he'll be the centerpiece of any deal. What if the Bulls wind up having a worse record than the Celtics though by the trading deadline? It'd be harder to justify a 'rebuilding' trade to an even worse-off team.

yeah....this will be discussed here more and more, count on it. The scenario on the surface just seems too perfect not to entertain.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 3, 2006 5:00 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Behind Enemy Lines

Looks like we're not the only ones talking about this one. The Celtics' fans want Hinrich and/or Deng AND the Knicks 2006 pick.

http://celticsblog.net/forums/viewtopic.php?t=2548

Moving the Knicks pick really makes sense b/c I feel the 2006 Draft is VERY weak at the top. It's almost reminiscent of the Crawford/Fizer draft - if that's at all possible.

While the Celtics would likely want Deng, do they NEED him? They have a scoring wing in Ricky Davis, and other young SFs like Justin Reed & Gerald Green developing. I'm probably just being greedy and when push came to shove, I would include Deng. But like Matt said - I hope Pax tries his damndest to hang on to him.

by Jobu on Jan 3, 2006 6:23 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Any of these combinations is a royal fleecing

Scenario #1: TT + Gordon + Deng + NYK pick for Pierce + Blount

Hinrich's inability to drive/penetrate will keep him from being an elite guard. But his defense and outside shot paired with Pierce's ability to draw fouls and attack the rim would make them one of the elite backcourts. No major holes at any position.

Scenario #2: TT + Gordon + Hinrich + NYK pick (?) for Pierce + Banks (?) + Blount (?)

Deng is iffy dribbling/driving but he has shown a consistent outside jumper and can do some things inside in putbacks, etc. Pierce + Deng give us a versatile elite G-F 1-2 punch. Banks has blazing speed, can penetrate and defend but he's inconsistent. If we give up Hinrich, who Ainge probably wants badly, we might be able to keep the NYK pick, or not take on Blount's contract, which would give us cap flexibility to acquire a PG or whomever through FA or draft. Hole at PG.

Scenario #3: TT + Gordon + Duhon + NYK pick for Pierce + Banks + Blount (?)

HOORAY! This would be the most royal of fleecings! No need to elaborate on this one. Least likely to happen, IMO.
---
I think it would come down to a combination of Gordon + Hinrich or Gordon + Deng. The major question is, who is more valuable to the Bulls with Pierce-- Hinrich or Deng?

I think keeping Hinrich might be better. He's a top notch defender and Pierce's ability to move between SG and SF give us more flexibility in acquiring another good player at arguably less important positions (when you have a superstar with Pierce and imaginary superstar with Noce).

Man I hope the Celtics are silly enough to give us Pierce. Look at his stats this season:

26.2 ppg, 7.9 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.31 spg, 49% FG!!!, 9.4 FTA 80% FT!!, AdjFG 52%!!!

WOW.

Bottom line: Pierce + 2007 NYK pick swap + some cap space = Bulls NBA Champions in 2-3 years.

by CRG on Jan 3, 2006 7:34 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Pierce

Well, I don't really like Pierce but I don't like what i see from the team so maybe it's time to be open minded and consider a deal. I will say that while Pierce is good, I always thought of him as a "me" player and not a leader. Correct me if I'm wrong. If so, there is no reason to think a veteran changes that at this point in his life.

Also, the more I watch Deng the less I want to trade him. I think he can be scary good. I don't want to let him go even though Hinrich has more utility to us as a true PG with Pierce, henceforth referred to as Truth.

I guess this is why I would not be a good GM and why I love Kenny Williams...I can't see giving up Kirk or Deng, the two untouchables as I see them. I know Kirk has only shown flashes but I think that as a true PG he averages 14 - 15 ppg (his offense has improved since he's been forced to change roles; perhaps the only positive to come from that) in the FLOW OF THE OFFENSE. Plus, he's averaging over 6 assists now, so bump that by at least 2 but likely 3 or 4.

As for Gordon, I've soured on him. Let someone else try to win a championship with a shooting guard as the featured player.

Dalibor and Dragan

by FAQ on Jan 3, 2006 10:02 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Gotta look ahead

This season might be a total train wreck, but we have to step back and see that Deng, and Hinrich with Tyson off the bench is our future. Not to mention two (what would now project to be) excellent draft picks next year that we can gorge on big men, or even rudy gay if were so lucky. (Just imagine if we get aldridge and gay...wow) Paul Pierce is a moping, complaining, chip on his shoulder kind of guy, but not one that seems to put in the "win or else" effort to make himself truly great. All you have to do is break out the first game we played against the Celtics and watch how error and concentration prone he is. There he is At the end of the game screwing the celts as he argued a call with the refs, while the play was still going, allowing Deng to get an easy dunk. Soon after he let Gordon go in for an easy layup as he called out the defensive switch to a teamate, when it was supposed to be his pick up. He only took the Celtics far in the playoffs once, and that was with ample help. We don't need his moping, or his questionable judgement and characther. Plus he reminds me of the Jalen rose type of b list all star, that will fail to land us anywhere in the playoffs. Deng is just getting better and better, but I do agree that we can give up Gordon for the right player. If anything, and I hate to say it, but it seems that they might be tuning out Skiles. Why else would there be a lack of discipline, motivation, and conditioning. Not to mention veiled swipes at the coach from Gordon and Sweetney. Take a look at the Bucks, who used their picks (bogut) young talent (redd/ford/gadzurik) cap room (simmons) and trade assets (magloire) to assemble a really good team.

by dcarioca on Jan 3, 2006 10:32 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

good points but...

One of the Bulls main problems is that they have nobody who demands the ball and can take over a game. I see Luol as an all-star but not a franchise player. Can anyone think of examples of players improving their handles to the point of being able to beat people one-on-one? Of course, Luol is 20, so maybe it would be better to trade Hinrich instead Luol for Pierce.

Hinrich won't get more than 6 AST because he can't penetrate or finish and our current players just make extra passes instead of taking the open shot. The only way his AST could go up is if he had a superstar to receive his passes.

I have to defend PP on some points:

On PP not taking his team far in the playoffs-- until they got Ricky Davis, PP had no help, especially at the 4 and 5. He had 'Toine chucking up everything and rapidly deteriorating as a serious player. Other notable sidekicks were Kenny Anderson, Tony "El Busto" Battie, Chucky Atkins, the drink-sodden corpse of Vin Baker.
PP is not a B-list all-star.

He's 6th in PPG, 10th in PER in the league.

More importantly, look at PP's ranking among SGs:
3rd in PPG, 5th in FG%, 3rd in FTA, 1st in RPG, 7th in AST, 12th in SPG.

Hollinger SG rankings from knickerblogger--
3rd in PER, 1st in TS%, 1st in REB-r.

3. You can characterize him as a malcontent, however I don't think this is entirely of his own making. He's had 3 coaches in 7 years and a revolving door of crappy, mindless, stopgap teammates. Wouldn't that make you mopey too? I think the chip on his shoulder is a good thing. The Bulls are too quiet and unassuming, they need PP's swagger. He can take over games and has the clout to get other players to pick up their game.

At 28, PP has 5-7 more years of being able to carry a team. I agree with the thoughts on Luol, so again perhaps Hinrich is the one we'd be better off packaging. I still think it's rare to get a guy who can take over games, and unlike the Celtics, we have right parts, flexibility and mentality to go farther w/PP-luol-chandler than hinrich-gordon-luol-chandler.

by CRG on Jan 4, 2006 12:16 AM CST reply actions 0 recs

I Want The Truth

The reason I've been so insistent on acquiring The Truth for so long is for a number of reasons. When looking at this current Bulls team, their perceived weaknesses, in no particular order are:

No Alpha Dog
Small Guards
Lack of free throws
Lack of an offensive post player
Height, in general
Playoff Experience

PP addresses each one except for #4. Also, what hasn't been brought up yet is Pierce's play in the postseason. Here are his numbers:

        G    MPG    FG%    3P%    FT%    OFF    DEF    RPG PG    SPG BPG TO    PPG
Career     556    37.7    .438    .359    .795    1.2    5.4    6.6    3.8    1.74    .70    3.07    23.2
Playoff         37    42.1    .409    .301    .820    1.4    7.2    8.5    4.7    1.78    1.14    4.03    24.5

They go up! I cannot stress how much faith I have in players who's numbers go up in the postseason. Do I think this is a deal that puts the Bulls over the top? Hardly. But I do believe it's the most realistic scenario for the Bulls to acquire a SuperStar. Not an All Star, but a SuperStar. Realistically, What other players are available? KG isn't coming here. Ben Wallace isn't signing here. I certainly don't want Peja or Artest. Steve Francis? No thanks. and sure, maybe in 2007/08 we'll make a run for Bosh - but the way to acquire a SuperStar is to trade for one or draft one - and we all know how crappy the upcoming draft is looking. It's for those reasons that I'm so insistent on this - it's not some dream that Sam Smith concocts Sunday night where he has the Bulls trading Duhon, Sweetney, and 2 #1's for Tim Duncan. This actually makes sense for both. Championship teams usually have two All Stars, Pierce would be one. The Bulls need this, I need this, who's coming with me???

by Jobu on Jan 4, 2006 12:50 PM CST reply actions 0 recs

Hoopshype profile on Paul Pierce

A scoring machine... Can create his shots and hit them from anywhere... Shot selection is a concern, though... A threat from beyond the arc... Watch out for his penetrations... Goes to the free-throw line very often... Good leaping skills... Very good moves... Full of strength... Can dunk on anyone... Grabs seven boards per contest... A good defensive player... Likes to steal the ball and run the break... Great performer under pressure... Your man in the fourth quarter.

by CRG on Jan 4, 2006 1:05 PM CST reply actions 0 recs