Big Fat Dose of Reality.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 3:59 PM CST

Lets try to make some sense of recent events and lend a bit of context the the current circumstance.

Maybe we'll put this to rest one day but I think it'd be interesting for all the people who have bitched and moaned about this Noah situation to suggest a better solution given the same set of circumstances. Lets keep in mind that everyone on the team felt it was appropraite to hand out the extra game so don't continue to single out Wallace. It was everyone including the Holy Saint Tyrus Thomas. If you think it was the wrong thing to do then suggest a scenario that would've been better given the same set of circumstances. And maybe while you're at it someone could articulate the ACTUAL, not supposed, harm done here. There aint any. If Noah can't take a unanimous rebuke from his teammates that he clearly has coming then he is a punk. End of that story.

Meanwhile here are the real concerns.......

It seems pretty clear now that Boylan's situation is this; hold the team together and play for as many wins in the short term as possible and hopefully if he does Pax will be able to sell Carlisle on this coaching job. Grim but apparently true. And the downside is that if Pax can't convince a coach with pedigree to take this job then the whole thing is over. By over I mean Pax is gone and major roster turnover looms and frankly I don't think its likely to end well for any of us.

Even if Jesus himself comes to coach this team its still going to be desperately undersized at guard, woefully short of superstar talent, and it'll only be a matter of time before we're right back were we are at the moment. With Jesus for an ex-coach. So lets not get too caught up in the moment. Who gets how much playing time is of no concern whatsoever because A. this is a shit-storm well beyond the scope of any one player on this roster, even the Holy Saint Tyrus Thomas, and B. the direction of this team for the next several years currently hangs in the balance which just maybe maybe maybe is a little more important than how much your hero plays on a given night.

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at least we agree about

Tyrus!!

I vote for Thomas to play, play more and play regularly.-Sam Smith

by tyrus4prez on Jan 14, 2008 4:10 PM CST reply actions

First of all, your demand for

proof of "actual" harm is inane. What does "actual" even mean in this context? Physical proof? Forensic proof? Empirical proof? Do you think that a microscopic examination of the Bulls' players is going to yield some evidence of cellular degeneration caused by this incident? I don't know what "actual" means here. It doesn't really have a meaning.

In any case, the incident just occcured, so it will likely take time for its consequences to manifest. However, it could very easily harm Noah's confidence, undermine his faith in his teammates, ruin his relationship with his coaches and peers, cause him to withdraw, hinder his development as a player, and further erode the waning authority of the interim staff.

And even if the incident isn't a cause of harm, it is a symptom of some underlying team dysfunction. A sub-.500 team should not be dictating disciplinary measures.

Most importantly, this incident is indicative of a much larger issue: the Bulls' staff seems incapable of developing athletic young talent. Why has Rudy Gay improved so much in his second year? Why has Aldridge improved so much in his second year? Why have so many other second year players made significant leaps in their production while Tyrus languishes? Is it because those players are somehow smarter and inherently more diligent than lazy, stupid Tyrus? That's what some would have you believe, but I doubt it. The fact of the matter is that those other players have benefitted from regular playing time and the tutelage of coaching staffs that can teach. That the problem lies with the staff and not solely with Tyrus is further supported by the ongoing troubles revolving around Noah. I guess Noah just happens to be another stupid, lazy player, right? Even though he was lauded for his maturity and work ethic in college, he has somehow transformed into an indolent malcontent? Again, I doubt it. There is only one constant here: the Bulls' staff. They have failed to develop their draft picks.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 14, 2008 4:21 PM CST reply actions

You're on a roll

That pretty much sums things up. I don't know that I agree that Noah and Thomas are without blame. They could be a couple of complete clowns. But the wider situation is bordering on circus-like in ways we haven't seen in quite a while.

by Sports2 on Jan 14, 2008 6:29 PM CST up reply actions

Those guys looked better

because they didn't look that good last year. Teams haven't adjusted to them yet. Gay's team isn't winning at all and Aldridge really wasn't that impressive, at least against the bulls.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 14, 2008 6:57 PM CST up reply actions

Actual harm

is self evident. And again if Noah can't take it then he's got a long career as a punk ahead of him so lets not shed tears for that kind of guy.
I suspect he'll live.

As for player development you're partially right.
But Deng has certainly improved and so has Gordon but he's so short that it really doesn't matter because he'll always be a match up issue. So Im not buying the conclusion.

The reason Gay and Aldridge have improved so much more than our guys is because they were better to begin with on draft night. More skilled, more mature, and more ready to contribute to their teams specific needs right from the start. Right now Noah looks like he's got a Stacy King issue.
Stud in college gets drafted by a team that doesn't have a spot for him and goes into a funk. Thats on Pax, ENTIRELY.

He may get over it or he may be a bust, I don't give two squirts of piss about the guy one way or another but given the specific circumstances the Bulls are in I really can't believe anyone thinks the best thing to do is throw minutes at a couple of guys who can't be troubled to know where on the
court they're supposed to stand.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 5:00 PM CST reply actions

Except

there should be a spot for him since he has been their 2nd best big man so far this year, regardless of his faults.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 5:33 PM CST up reply actions

if you want Law & Order...

well, it's on all the time. You're in dangerous 'hater' territory here, and that's far from reality.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 5:42 PM CST up reply actions

That's subject to debate.

True Noah has been able to contribute in some spots and I generally think he looks better than Thomas on most nights but he isn't their 2nd best big man on a nightly basis. Its the same issue that the HSTT has which is if you put them out there for big minutes every night you'll see sugar turn to shit realllllly fast. Now maybe thats fine if you're rebuilding but that's not where the Bulls were or where they're at right now. Yet.

Gray has looked better than the whole bunch and if anybody has a bitch about playing time its him.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 5:46 PM CST reply actions

Who is then?

Joe Smith is the only big man that deserves minutes over Noah and Thomas. And he'll be toast in a few weeks.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 5:49 PM CST up reply actions

Gray

is only playable against big fat guys.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 5:50 PM CST up reply actions

Noah has been good most of the time

that's why he has a nice PER and positive plus-minus rating. Production usually gets better with more playing time too. Screw Gray, but there's room for him too.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 5:51 PM CST up reply actions

Shouldn't assume that

production will get better with time, especially with these two guys right now. How can you expect Noah's production to necessarily increase with extra pt when he can't remember the plays in a walk-through?? You can't believe he's going to play well in the half court right now.

Under certain situations he can do well, same with the HSTT
but albeit the number of situations Thomas will do well in is smaller currently.

Not to compare but illustrate. For a couple or three years Will Perdue was the reb leader per 48. Its all context.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 6:40 PM CST up reply actions

I should assume it

because it's a fact. Obviously Noah has to learn to stand where Wallace and A-Drain want him. Still, not knowing what to do hasn't hindered Noah from making a more positive impact than Wallace. If any player can be deemed a 'situational' guy right now, and lose playing time, it's Wallace.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 6:55 PM CST up reply actions

I'd love to hear

exactly how you think Noah is going to increase his production in the half court with increased minutes. Be specific. Tell me exactly which skills you're observing that you think he'll be putting to use. Describe which back to the basket move you
think he's going to kill with. Knock me out.

In any event I just love how the argument always comes to this;
"it doesn't matter if Thomas or Noah or Thabo suck because
Wallace sucks too" Its silly.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:10 PM CST up reply actions

that's not what I'm saying

I'm just stating the facts. Noah has played well, better than Wallace, despite not being a classic post-up big. With more minutes it's very likely that he'll get better, and help the team more. He'll probably even learn a play or two, but it's not like they work that great. And producing more doesn't mean becoming a different player.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 7:19 PM CST up reply actions

First of all....

Your link showed that out of a very small sample of roughly 250 players %70 increased production with more pt while the rest did not. So thats something short of a fact. Yeah some guys do well with time and others don't but you have to understand the specific reasons why in each case. Playing time isn't magic pixie dust.

If you think its very likely he'll get better tell me specifically why.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:26 PM CST up reply actions

Because he has skills...

...which are hard or impossible to teach like athleticism and court vision/"intuitiveness", blocking, rebounding, etc. And they lack in the areas that are teachable like shooting, plays, rotations, etc.

It's a fact that players only get better in these things by playing in games, not going against Andres Nocioni and Joe Smith.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 7:30 PM CST up reply actions

tyger

you ruined this thread.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 14, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions

it's enough

to show that more playing time for guy who has good per minute numbers will likely continue to produce, and produce more, if given the chance. I'm using words like "likely" and "possibly" because it's impossible to be certain, but Noah is definitely not "crap" like you described. And the only "dust" is the all the static you keep inserting into your comments (Perdue was a good rebounder, and your lame Tyrus Thomas nickname can suck a hairy asshole) to screw up what passes for coherent communication on BaB.

Of course there's context like learning the playbook, but there isn't a good reason to have much faith in the coaching staff and their strategies. Nocioni and Wallace play their own not-in-the-playbook mini-zones frequently, and both wildly toss up garbage shots. That seems like a disregard for whatever the coaching staff is trying to accomplish. Perhaps Noah's role should be simplified, and maybe the coaches should figure out a better way to teach him. He's at fault, but laying every problem on his lap speaks to the incompetence of the roster and coaches more than anything else.

If Noah is this good without knowing what line Ron Adams and Adrian Griffin want him to stand on, he should be even better once that gets cleared up.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 9:26 PM CST up reply actions

Its not enough

because we're not talking about a transcendent player here.
We're talking about a guy who has a decent shot at being a good pro but he isn't going to be the player you build a franchise around so there is no reason to go to the trouble of dumbing down the offense just to get the guy more minutes.

If you want to make the point that the Bulls should just chuck it all now rebuild then thats a different point but there wasn't a single reason in hell to give Noah or the HSTT more pt going into this year and as of yet there still isn't

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 9:39 PM CST up reply actions

Thomas and Noah help the team win

It's a fact. There is certainly a reasonable argument to not play each 35+ minutes a game. That's not what I'm rooting for, but they are underutilized. Joe Smith isn't going to last long at this rate, Wallace doesn't deserve his minutes, and Nocioni can't rebound or defend at power forward. There are minutes better spent on Thomas and Noah. Consistent playing time should help them develop and help the Bulls win games.

Fire Boylan!

by hscs on Jan 14, 2008 10:04 PM CST up reply actions

Give your

"facts" a rest friend. They're not really helping your point.

You're going to get your wish soon enough okay. Just understand that isn't going to make this team any better.
Playing time for your hero isn't even one of the top 5 issues
with this team.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 10:18 PM CST up reply actions

Anything that

limits Wallace's minutes will make this team better. Now if we can just find a way to do the same with Duhon...

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 10:43 PM CST up reply actions

top 5 issues

so you mention that the Bulls have no superstar talent. You think not seeing what you have in a 21 year old top-5 pick isn't an issue? Cozying up to Rick Carlisle is?

This screed of yours is all based on making the declaration of Tyrus' career already as not worthwhile. I don't agree with that, and thus your whole premise. Although your true premise could be just to become the resident turd of this site.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:50 PM CST up reply actions

Well sorry

to presume to hold an opinion that conflicts with the majority
of "geniuses" here. I wasn't award uniformity was a condition of posting. I'll keep it in mind.

If you think there is some magic bulb that is going to suddenly go off in the heads of players like Noah and Thomas by magically giving away more playing time then you're flat out
an idiot and anybody else who thinks that is an idiot too.

Thomas may one day be able to contribute to this team at a high level, I hope so. But that day is a long long long long way off.
Noah is an limited player at best. He has no shot, he has no foot work and he doesn't have anything like the upper body strength he'll need to be an effective post player in this league. You cannot possibly be receiving ANY of that as new information.
If that makes me a "turd" I guess Im a turd then and somehow I'll have to find a way to go.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 12:24 PM CST up reply actions

you can disagree

though you've basically been repeating yourself every time you post, with nothing new besides that you think Tyrus and Noah will never be good. Which is an opinion that you feel (strangely) strong about.

Plus you feel the need to complain about complaining, without realizing the irony in that.

Also...you don't come across as very, um, eloquent?

So all that + disagreeing = turdburglar.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:02 PM CST up reply actions

Kettle meet pot..

And you guys basically repeat yourself that you think Noah
and the HSTT should be given playing time even when they don't know where they're supposed to stand on the floor. A far stranger opinion by any measure.

Plus you get weepy whenever you're challenged about your whining.

And christ lord jesus lets not pretend there is some standard for eloquence on this board.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 15, 2008 1:08 PM CST up reply actions

I'll concede those first and third points

But the problem is, you're not very bright? I guess? I dunno, it's all coming across as noise.

But I'll keep working on figuring out just exactly why your well-reasoned arguments just aren't catching on. That's my promise to you, the reader.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 15, 2008 1:28 PM CST up reply actions

dean of lame nicknames

rusty's shooting for that title once held by colossus.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:41 PM CST up reply actions

For one...

...he'll make layups and dunks. And he'll make more free throws, too.

Your turn.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 7:23 PM CST up reply actions

I think

the actual argument is more like "it doesn't matter if Thomas or Noah sucks because Wallace sucks more."

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 7:24 PM CST up reply actions

And at least Thomas and Noah...

...have a chance to get better whereas Wallace doesn't.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 7:26 PM CST up reply actions

If you don't mind,

give some examples of situations the Noah wouldn't do well in, or at least wouldn't do better than Wallace. I don't buy half court, even if he doesn't know the plays, cause he's a better passer than Wallace and at least he can finish a dunk. Its great the Wallace knows when to set a screen on a pick and roll, but what good does it do when he can't finish?

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 7:03 PM CST up reply actions

You answered your own question.

Noah isn't going to be able to do squat with his back to the basket and whatever "energy" he brings wont consistently make up for the fact that he often has no idea whats going on

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:12 PM CST up reply actions

But you didn't answer

how he wouldn't be better than Wallace.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 7:16 PM CST up reply actions

Lets review...

Both guys are crap but somehow you're making the argument that the one pile of crap who doesn't know the plays is an
all around better option than the other pile of crap who does know the plays and can at least set a screen on the right side of the floor and might conceivably know which defensive rotation to make. This is your point isn't it?

I guess I'll have to concede. Noah may be lost but he puts one helluva lot of energy into it.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:23 PM CST up reply actions

Dude, you are not a bright person.

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Jan 14, 2008 7:24 PM CST up reply actions

looks like

you tried to ruin this one too.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 14, 2008 7:40 PM CST up reply actions

Because

one guy is a pile of crap because he doesn't know the plays but can somewhat make up for it with athleticism and energy. The other guy is a piece of crap because he is physically unable/can't be bothered to dunk, make a layup, make a free throw, or jump.

As I said, what good is knowing which screen to set on a pick and roll if you can't do anything when you roll?

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 7:29 PM CST up reply actions

So

there's only one guy involved in a pick and roll? Come on, you can't be effective on a team that at least attempts to execute a movement oriented offense if you don't know the plays. This is nonsense.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:34 PM CST up reply actions

You don't think

that Noah knows any plays? I think it is much more likely that he blows an assignment once in a while. In fact, I would bet that Noah blows fewer assignments than Wallace blows layups.

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 7:39 PM CST up reply actions

I have no idea

how much of the playbook he actually knows. But it should be clear to you if you're watching that he is VERY often lost and its pretty clear he couldn't make it through a freakin' walk through.
How is that advantage Bulls???

Look, for the Bulls to play well they need guys moving without the ball and knowing where their teammates are supposed to be.
They can't do that very well with Thomas or Noah on the floor right now. They aren't doing anything very well right now but thats hardly an argument for throwing someone even less capable on the floor for bigger minutes.

If at some point Pax pulls the plug on the season and we go back to Tim Floyd days then hell yes, put both those guys in there and we'll take their mistakes and let 'em learn on the fly.
But I'll bet any or you ANY amount of money that if that happens none of you will be rejoicing about it after the fact.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:54 PM CST up reply actions

So at what point

is not knowing some of the plays outweighed by not being good at basketball? Cause it has to come at some point. I'm assuming Khryapa knows the plays, but he still doesn't get minutes over Noah. So it must be somewhere in between Wallace and Khryapa. But I'm not sure Wallace is any better than Khryapa at this point... so, what else could it be, hmmm

by JeffD on Jan 14, 2008 8:13 PM CST up reply actions

Funny,

you wrote : "Look, for the Bulls to play well they need guys moving without the ball and knowing where their teammates are supposed to be.", and I thought the Bulls needed a spark, someone who doesn't always do what the other team expects the Bulls to do. Clearly, other teams have figured out the Bulls "ball movement" offense. Time for some crazy stuff in the paint, ala Noah and Tyrus and Thabo.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Jan 15, 2008 3:54 AM CST up reply actions

They have some good moves

like how Hinrich drives to the lane and dishes to Wallace with five seconds left so Wallace can turn the ball over with a bad pass, miss a dunk, or miss a fade away. Must be their favorite play in the play book since they keep doing it every game.

by cranscape on Jan 15, 2008 8:34 AM CST up reply actions

That's subject to debate.

Gray has looked better than the whole bunch and if anybody has a bitch about playing time its him.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 5:51 PM CST reply actions

If Noah is getting yelled at for not knowing

the plays, it's hard to make a strong argument for him getting more time. This is especially true when the strong argument for playing Wallace is that benching him drops his trade value like driving a new car off of the lot. Benching him turns him into Theo Ratliff. While he is still playing at least he is "the former Defensive Player of the Year." There is a month or so left until the trade deadline. If he hasn't been moved by then, I would expect his minutes to get sharply curtailed.

Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Jan 14, 2008 7:48 PM CST reply actions

the trade thing is a good point

Its often lost how Wallace's contract is back loaded which may or may not make him more trade-able. But if you really want this guy gone then you want to showcase him for the next 30 games
or so and hope someone will fall for the contract. Otherwise he'll be here for his whole contract.

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 7:56 PM CST up reply actions

Uh, I am fairly certain that Wallace's

contract was front-loaded, not back-loaded.

LSU 38 OHIO STATE 24 - LSU IS THE NATIONAL CHAMPION AND I AM THE KING OF BOURBON STREET!!

by 1958ChiTown on Jan 14, 2008 9:24 PM CST up reply actions

You're right.

My typo

by Rusty LaRue on Jan 14, 2008 9:35 PM CST up reply actions

Noah...

got into a fight with an assistant coach, maybe he bumped him or maybe he cursed him out; so they told him "you can't do that shit!"

I fail to see why this is conversation worthy.

by Kemp @ Blog a Bull on Jan 14, 2008 11:36 PM CST reply actions

Hopefully the Great Tyrus

Will look fondly upon the punishment we mortals have doled out.

Can this season be saved by jumping?

by cubbybear on Jan 14, 2008 11:38 PM CST reply actions

Noah doesn't know plays? Who cares!

These amazing offensive sets I see from the Bulls seem to involve Gordon/Hinrich dribbling themselves into a turnover. If Noah messes that up, more power to him.
Noah has made his case for increased minutes with A) rebounding on both ends (Wallace gives up offensive boards to the likes of the immortal Zach Randolph) and B) offensive disruption. By "offensive disruption" I mean that his activity in the post and willingness to take a shot or attempt a move draw the defense. Everyone knows Wallace won't even ATTEMPT a layup. Even when Noah doesn't get the ball, he creates space at the top of the key for people like Deng, Noce and Hinrich to move into to get those easy 15-footers. And he's a better passer out of the post.
He deserves more burn and if Ben Wallace pouts, the team should vote him off the friggin island this time. Forget trade value.

by Old Skool Sloan on Jan 15, 2008 9:06 AM CST reply actions