This team is a mess
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2008 3:58 PM CST
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PrintIt was all scripted so well. The veterans band together and single out a young insubordinate for further punishment. Everybody on the same page, showing leadership, salvaging the season. Sit back and wait for glowing remarks on your behalf.
But see, if you're going to play this "galvanizing the team" game, it shouldn't be initiated by Griffin and Wallace: someone who doesn't play, and someone who can no longer play (and is known for clashing with coaches himself!). And then have it endorsed by a lame-duck coach.
Oh, and you can't then walk on the floor with this welling of team spirit...and then give up 38 in the first quarter. Lose to the Hawks by 21.
This kind of story can perhaps be told about a great team with a track record of success. But these players have done nothing to earn minutes or power, and not only have they gotten a coach fired but they're now handing out disciplinary measures.
What a joke.
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I owe Skiles an apology
agreed
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2008 4:12 PM CST up reply actions
I can picture Skiles
I've never seriously wished an injury on any player, especially never one on my own team, and it makes me sad that Wallace is bringing me rapidly toward that point.
Have I heard this once before?Hmm...
i find it hilarious that on this very page
by Mike C on Jan 13, 2008 4:14 PM CST reply actions
What about Larry Brown?
I do not like Larry Brown abandoning every team he has been with. He did size up the Knicks in a month trying to make changes that Isiah now realizes but cannot make because they are his players. He did pull Detroit together t win a championship and put Philly in the Finals. What do you guys think?
Brown hates the youngins
I completely forgot there was a game today
right
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2008 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
Hysterical
As far as Wallace, I don't think I've ever done a bigger 180 in my entire sports fanatic life. To think I was once happy with the signing.
Should we be talking about re-builing?
Fire Sale!! Please Pax!! I cant look at these people for 5-6 more years!! Start Over!!
Fire sale would be too drastic
Plural?
You named pieces
Gray came into the NBA 10-15 years too late. He's a nice option for some minutes off the bench, but nothing to really build around. He's too damn slow to want as anything more than a very limited role player.
Obviously, some of that core that I identified above, will probably have to be used in attempts to improve the team via trade. Put with a good SG, I think they can make for a hell of a starting 5. That's why I'd be very much in favor of a McGrady trade.
McGrady?
McGrady trade probably wouldn't happen
I agree
Deng's timid (which is why he's an at best second fiddle).
I would try to keep the following from our team (Hinrich, Deng, Noah, Thomas).
I'd love to keep Nocioni (I know I'm on the rare side for this blog, but he's the only guy who plays his butt off every minute--and he's probably the best energy guy in the league, but if we can use him and Smith and maybe one of our potential guys (Thomas, Noah, Thabo) and a draft pick, then I'm for it.
I know everyone hates my minor tweak trade thoughts, but why not try to pry Mike Miller out of Memphis? Miller's a big SF/SG who while he doesn't maybe have the huge games of Gordon, he's always more consistent and his size makes him less guardable under pressure because he can at least make a pass when double teamed. I say trade Gordon, Khryapa, Griffin for Mike Miller. It sounds like a lot (3 for 1), but isn't that much when you consider that Griffin and Khryapa are fluff on our team anyway.
Miller's the guy I'd always compare GOrdon to going into this season (except Miller's got height, and Gordon has the ability for more ridiculous scoring games), but Miller can score (16.4 pts a game, and can rebound (7 pts/game).
Memphis will pick up $8.5M of cap relief next year that they could use for Gordon (but likely would not).
SUre I'd love a superstar, but since it's unlikely we'll get one (and I don't really want Gimpy McGrady these days) I think we should make a tweak and get another piece in the draft.
We'll have to wait out Big Ben's contract anyway before we can really be competitive again (or at least we'll have to wait until after next season when Big Ben's salary is a valuable commodity again), so let's at least try to make some waves playing the young guys and lookign competitive:
Hinrich
Mike Miller
Deng
Thomas
Wallace
Bench: Noah, Nocioni, Smith, Duhon, Thabo, Gray
This would be a minor tweak, but we still would have the assets for a more major tweak, and if that never happened, we'll at least have a more consistent starting lineup....Miller will help to really keep the defenses honest and with the size he has, he can at least keep a hand in the face of the bigger guys, which will slow them down a bit more than BG.
I still like Gordon, but we ain't keeping him anyway, so let's just end the BG experience while we can.
I also don't think (As all the analysts are saying on espn and si that the Bulls ahve the pieces for a blockbuster right now--salaries of Deng and Gordon are too low, and Hinrich/Noc with the BYC are too high), and nobody wants Wallace's mammoth cap killer contract.
Plus
I know Thomas's attitude has cost him playing time, but from what I see (Even yesterdays 2 minutes at the end of the game) I see a big guy who can pass (that was an awesome pass at the end of the game that the announcers of course didn't watch) and a guy who can leap over everyone for rebounds/points.
He needs discipline and so does apparently Noah, and since that's the case, let's get a big man coach in there NOW.
I think both of these guys can be better than the current Chandler, and I do think Noah might be the only leader in this bunch (but he's a rookie and a very loud rookie who needs a bit of maturing).
I'd love to see some development of players (something outside of Deng we haven't seen--I think Noce, Hinrich, Gordon developed naturally, Deng's the only guy who had a big jump).
Let's get a big man coach and see what they can do.....it's just a shame the Bulls haven't really had many stellar big men. Last Thing I want to see is Stacey King in that role--although I might not mind it because the games would be easier to watch even when we're getting killed with Stacey not talking talking talking talking as much....
Gordon and parts for Mike Miller?
by alee7805 on Jan 14, 2008 6:59 PM CST up reply actions
No we can't
I do think especially given this year and the fact that in the last 2 years we've drafted 2 taller SG's, that it's a sign that we want to give up on the BG experience...
Plus I think a lineup of Hinrich-Miller-Deng-Thomas/Smith-Wallace/Noah would add a boost to our hot and cold team by virtue that Miller is pretty much consistent (when he's given the opps, he'll get his scores) where Gordon can have games where he's open and misses everything. Plus Miller can grab rebounds, passes as well as Gordon, can handle the ball better, and actually might be a better defender by virtue of his height....
Teams like Detroit wouldn't be able to completely outmuscle us with a big guard, and Mike Miller is a lot better than his league rep (since he's been lost on mostly mediocre Memphis teams and Memphis ain't really a hotbed for NBA talk either).
Memphis is sure to pull the plug on this one....and I think in this scenario we're trying something while giving us another trade piece (if Miller doesn't work, he's at least an $8.5M trade chip for a bigger trade later).
Was it as bad as the score looked?
It may have actually been worse.
What I really want is for the players I still like on this team to somehow get rescued from this misery, which I think playing the young guys would accomplish. They'd make mistakes, sure, but the whole attitude on the floor is different with the kids out there.
Can't the players vote that Ben Wallace
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 13, 2008 4:58 PM CST reply actions
I would find a way
I think
comment to the K.C.'s article
"Maybe one of the Bulls' problems is that they have a guy who can't even play calling team meetings. When will Deng, Gordon, and Hinrich step up and be leaders?"
Does anybody here
trading of Wallace
don't give ike too much credit...
An incremental improvement might be
What a load of BS
by ForWhomTheBullTolls on Jan 13, 2008 5:44 PM CST reply actions
I agree with what you said
E-Rob, Tim Thomas or Wallace
It seems as if the competition is between Thomas and Wallace?
Kinda miss Big Sweetney and Othella now? Wow, I believe the character building selections went out of the door with the high price purchase of Wallace.
Maybe Ben Wallace is a serious problem....
Wallace by far
I have felt
YTD: Reinsdorf made more on his crap
by runio on Jan 13, 2008 6:20 PM CST reply actions
Big Ben
Wallace shot 1-5 from the floor (20%). Of the 4 misses, 2 were blocked. He only took one shot from more than 5 feet (a 14 foot miss). Wallace also shot 25% from the FT line.
I cannot understand how these numbers are acceptable under any standard.
There's no statistic for grit...
If its not Noce with you guys its Wallace
You're missing the boat. The vote on the Noah thing was
unanimous. So you're going to bitch and moan over who called the meeting or took the vote to Boylan?? Makes no sense at all.
Forest and trees are different things.
Its taking some of you awhile to come to grips with the fact that
there are much much bigger issues on this team than Wallace
or how many minutes Thomas gets or any other single issue.
You need to let some of this piddling stuff go and look at the
broader issues.
They don't need to take it back to square one but the answer to this team's issues are not on the roster right now and its hard to see how Pax is going to trade his way out of this. There isn't going to be a +/- hero trotting up on a white horse to save the
season. Pax needs new guards and a new coach, at a minimum.
He's drafted poorly the last two years and failed to be proactive in trades. He's put poorly matched players together and its catching up with him.
Look. Atlanta sucks but they're the team with the brighter near term. This could get much much worse even if Wallace never plays another minute and Thomas averages 35mpg from here on in
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 13, 2008 6:45 PM CST reply actions
Right on...
by Kemp @ Blog a Bull on Jan 13, 2008 7:28 PM CST up reply actions
Worse?
Yeah worse
We'll be getting more games like NY and Atl. Get ready for this Feb road trip.
by Rusty LaRue on Jan 13, 2008 7:45 PM CST up reply actions
I agree
Therefore this then leaves Kirk somewhat abandoned trying to progress (playing with the likes of Duhon and Thabo) while his weaknesses are being exposed to the point of destroying his confidence.
He's like a wounded promised champion race horse (analogy to not having a complimentary backcourt mate). I question whether he'll ever achieve consistency (Bulls mgmt will ever be able to acquired a suitable backcourt mate). Or should he be pawned and sacificed (given up by the Bulls and traded to the Heat or the Blazers to become all that he can be playing along side one of his b-ball leather soul-mates in his generation) for a first round draft pick and other considerations. Or else he'll waste and pine away playing for the non-complimentary player case assembled for him by the Bulls.
Gordon will be ok as a 6th man, period. Nothing more.
Therefore, the Bulls guard situation consists of a shell of what he could be PG, a scoring 3rd guard off the bench, Duhon, Thabo and Griffin. All 5 aren't starters in the NBA, with the exception of Kirk only matched with the appropriate SG. Yes, this is a bigger problem for Paxson.
You nailed it.
I think it is obvious right now that the Tyrus/Wallace/Thabo offseason was utterly devastating. Additionally, Noah seems to be a wasted pick, although it is hard to say it was a mistake because of what else was available at that spot.
It is now easy to defend Gordon (especially when Wallace is on the floor) so the only scorer on the team is neutralized and he doesn't have any other top-level skills.
Hinrich started off the year playing horribly but when he plays to his averages, he makes the Bulls a middle-of-the-road team. I think that's the ceiling right now.
Obviously there are no easy answers but I don't see any way this team can remain intact over the next five weeks. That will have to be the start of 08-09.
I never thought I'd say this
Noce was overpriced, but saved the season with his overconfident chucker mentality, and Joe Smith has the highest PER on the team. If Noah and Gray count, they have made significant contributions and their selections should be noted(Gray might be the steal of the draft, if he can become more consistent). Also, refusing to give Gordon and Deng more money may have not only saved money, but may have just saved the Bulls' future for the next few years, as they have not been worth big-time money all year, and the leap forward has not happened, for the team or the players.
The big-money signings of BW and Hinrich(the former far more than the latter) were good at the time, but now appear foolish. When we look back, Paxson's decision making seems to be getting slightly better, IMHO. Ben Wallace is an outlier, and I think that Reinsdorf is at fault there.
I think a big-time coach can save this team. Only a coach that really draws some water(LB, for one), will sit Wallace and be able to take the heat. Noah, Smith, Gray, Thomas and Thabo are now the most important assets to evaluate, as Deng seems to be stable rather than improving at this moment in time, and Gordon enjoys his new role, but doesn't seem to be earning a starting spot just yet.
Better decisions up to the trade deadline and this offseason are something I think have the potential to give us back the hope that the Bulls regression has taken from us.
You're right
paxsons created a monster
paxson needs to be fired and they need someone who doesnt have a mancrush on each of his draft picks. fire sale would be better than watching this team. it makes me sick.
Well
Wallace's defense does not make up for his lack of offense. The Bulls do not have the kind of offensive firepower necessary to play 4 on 5 on that end of the court. Many of Big Ben's misses are basically turnovers.
Other problems on this team include the midget backcourt, which includes the related problem of starting Chris Duhon. Chew on these stats: Duhon took 5 shots and missed them all. Of those, 3 were blocked. Duhon is shooting 37% from the floor on the year.
Between Wallace and Duhon, we have two starters who combined for 3 points on 10% shooting in over 51 minutes tonight. Does anyone know of a team with a winning record who can make the same claim?
What a freaking joke...
by bullsfaninbigapple on Jan 13, 2008 7:31 PM CST reply actions
Your right
What more needs to be seen?
by messwiththebull on Jan 13, 2008 8:48 PM CST reply actions
Wow, first Skiles, then Big Ben
He's declined in two really important areas
Just got back from the game
Boy did the game get away from them quick. The biggest difference was the aggressiveness. Joe Johnson looked unbelievable out there. Childress was trying to dunk everything, when he wasn't travelling. And the officiating was awful, both ways. Noc got pulled down on that spin move by Anthony Johnson, Johnson grabbed him on the shoulder. Couple of the Hawks were mugged on dunks and no calls. Kirk was hit on those jumpshots he bricked and there was no call. For all the travels and palms they did call, there were more they should have called. It was a very inconsistent job by the refs. Not that it made much difference when the bulls came out with no aggression. They were up 6-2 I think, turned it over a couple of times and all of a sudden I looked up and it was 25-8. My wife asked me if they were always this bad...
The most interesting thing about the game were the size of the players. There is no way BG is more than 6 feet, and Noc is a lot bigger than I thought, still just as slow as on TV though. And Aaron Gray deserves the nickname "Sasquatch." Joe Smith is really big, too. I was imnpressed with how professional he seemed compared to some of the other guys. During warmups, he spent at least 20 minutes going around, taking passes from the coaches after setting a pick and practicing jumpshots. At the same time Wallace was jacking up fadeaway 20 footers and taking the occasional free throw. Noah was running laps. Thabo was working hard and took a lot of shots, too.
The strangest looking guy was Marvin Williams. If you've ever seen Ben Wallace in person, the first thing you notice about him is his huge arms. Well, don't take this the wrong way, but Marvin Williams has the ass of a 300lb woman. He can't even stand up straight, it's like some kind of birth defect. I feel bad for the guy.
I got a picture with Red an Wayne after the game. I think this season has taken a decade of Red's life, and he might not have had 10 years left, he is looking old and tired. You can see how frustrated he is.
Prior to every game at the UC...
And yes, Gordon looks even smaller in person. I stood next to him earlier this season and towered over him at a modest 6'3".
Oh and I forgot the highlight of the game
The problems
I think trades and a two year rebuilding plan are
I don't know what else to say. The problems seem to go far beyond confidence, rotations, minutes, and coaching.
Does anyone here think that the team, as constituted, can win a championship? If so, why? I am genuinely curious.
I still believe
But in order for it to work alot of changes need to happen. The only way this works is if Paxson moves Wallace or eats the contract. He finds a coach with a different offensive system that's willing to committ to Paxson's lottery picks. The emphasis has to shift from the backcourt to the frontcourt. Paxson has to find a way to get through to Thomas and Noah because they have to be the guys the offense runs through. The Bulls should be a fast paced, defensive orientated team, that runs it's halfcourt offense through it's frontcourt. Who knows if this would work, but it'd be a lot more interesting that the current product.
Wow...six lottery picks.
the bulls are still really young
by bullshooter on Jan 13, 2008 10:13 PM CST up reply actions
refocus and grow and learn
But the key here is doing those things with the right coach...
And Boylan is NOT the right coach.
It amazes me that Pax could just put a guy in place that is basically a Skiles, part deux and really expect things to get better.
I'm more inclined to return to the assumption that Pax didn't really have a plan in place...and that he just fired Skiles because he had to do SOMETHING....
Unfortunately, because Boylan is NOT the right coach (not saying he isn't a good coach - just not the RIGHT coach)...
In the end it all comes down to the Bulls going nowhere this year, and the this ugly winter of Chicago sports will continue (painfully).
Defense to Offense
Kirk's offense isn't that great. With Duhon and Wallace on the floor they have to pass magnificently to get things popping.
You have to play lock down defense, get in passing lanes, force players to dribble drive into charges, and REBOUND the basketball. I just don't see this effort this season that was evident in the previous three seasons.
Looking around the league, I can see a dozen NBA teams that could be 45-37 for the season with Skiles coaching them into overachieving pressing defense that is converted into offense.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 10:20 AM CST up reply actions
stuff your energy in a sack
Who are these better rebounders?
When you see a shot go up, you don't watch the shot. You find an opponents jersey and you box him out. When the ball carems(karems?), go get it.
I may just watch the whole game from yesterday again just to count the number of missed boxouts.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 10:57 AM CST up reply actions
have fun
awful at everything but rebounding
Where do you get this data?
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
Rebound Rate
Basically it shows the percentage of rebounds available. One sticky wicket is that 'available' rebounds for an individual is just taking the percentage of total minutes he was on the floor, but it does a pretty good job.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 1:39 PM CST up reply actions
edit
http://www.nba.com/sonics/news/stats101.html
Also, since the young Bulls bigs don't seem to be showing up on the leaderboard, here's the team stats:
http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2008/Bulls.htm
Some other things to consider with individual rebound rate is teammates matter. Kurt Thomas has his career high in rebound rate, and I can only guess that he doesn't have much help in the Sonics' frontcourt (outside of Nick Collison)
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 1:43 PM CST up reply actions
And as for how they played
And Wallace was a real mystery. I don't think there is any hope for that guy anymore. He had one nasty dunk right in somebody's face to remind everybody that he could do it, and then he went back to his bread-and-butter pass out or hook-airball. It's frustrating to see on TV, but it is digusting to see in person, especially when he starts out with the dunk.
BG also had a play in the fourth where he did his drive-tumble-not-going-to-get-the-call and just stayed on the ground glaring at the ref while the rest of the guys played 4-on-5 at the other end. He got up and jogged back just in time to see his guy get the open jumper.
And I know you guys love to bash him, but Noc is one guy you can't count on to give it his all. He was fired up from the beginning and shot the ball like I'd expect BG to shoot it. He was fearless and wasn't going to give up any easy layups or dunks. He did get posterized in the first, but you have to respect the guy for getting back and challenging the dunk, even as you snicker at him.
good stuff
by California Al on Jan 14, 2008 3:27 AM CST up reply actions
Does the fact
I hate the Knicks, but at least someone else had a more pathetic loss than us today.
the real shame
just wait until they beat the Bulls
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 13, 2008 10:15 PM CST up reply actions
Shaq supposedly will be back on Wednesday
If you're not rooting for the bulls to win
Agreed.
However, I'm still not convinced the Bulls lack talent. Their young guys keep showing flashes--which is exactly what talented young guys do. They lack consistency, but that can only come with playing time...which is why this franchise is such a mess right now. The young guys are getting blocked by Wallace's on-court and off-court games.
I'm not ready to blow the whole thing up (of course, that means I don't consider dumping Wallace any way possible as "blowing up" the team), not until we can confirm what we do or don't have in the 1st and 2nd year guys.
It seriously did make me feel better!
game was in NY
by bullshooter on Jan 13, 2008 10:08 PM CST up reply actions
Just straight up awful
Better trade proposal than getting McGrady:
He could sit on a bench ... at a park somewhere, and not on the Bulls' bench. That would be great. And then we could play our bigs who don't suck, and then not lose horribly, or if we did lose horribly at least develop talent or SOMETHING.
Yeeeeeah, 13-20.
Wallace, Griffin, Joe Smith
1-Hinrich/Duhon
2-Gorodn/Sefolosha
3-Deng/Noc
4-Thomas
5-Noah/Gray
That shit looks great on paper, let them run and play stifling D, they could become then the second coming of the 2004 Pistons
Smith
Agreed.
The Hawks look like title contenders
The game sucked from the get go. The best play of the game for Chicago was right after the jump ball. Chris Duhon not saving the ball from going out of bounds since he would be saving a ball blind right underneath his own basket.
Yes. That was the high point.
the low point for me
I've honestly forgotten that he was still on the team
by ScottieCartwright on Jan 14, 2008 8:19 AM CST reply actions
still on the team
At least they handled it better
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 9:58 AM CST reply actions
bwahaha
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:30 AM CST reply actions
It kills me
just sweetening the deal for you
oh man
Mully is chairman of the 'pure point guard' committee, which I don't enjoy listening to, but the Griffin bashing was funny stuff.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:48 AM CST up reply actions
Normally, I don't endorse nastiness,
The Bulls, Heat and Knicks are in a pitched battle for most screwed up franchise on the league, and I can't honestly say who's currently the front runner.
Rosenbloom can keep the heat on all he wants
he's purely a blogger now
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:46 AM CST up reply actions
listening to his blog
To use your term: I skim
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
Personally, I don't care
There was one brief period where he shared a Saturday moring show, on the Score(?), where his partner somewhat kept his negativity in check, which made him listentoable.
He actually did one show solo about whiffle ball that was one of the best sports radio segments I've ever heard.
he had a daily midday show
But now that I think of it, he was on Saturdays at the Score before that, hosted with 'radio legend' Dave Baum.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 11:10 AM CST up reply actions
most screwed up franchise on the league
:-)
By design
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 1:32 PM CST up reply actions
As much as I hate him
For some reason
Now that it seems Boylan has clearly lost control
At least with another coach, he'll have this team under his belt for a half season before next year begins. They would have more experience under this new coach instead of just learning brand new stuff once training camp begins.
Also, this allows the new coach to see what the youngsters have in them before they start trading them all away.
historically
I don't think Pax wanted to fire Skiles, but I think Skiles wanted to be fired. Skiles had input into every roster move Pax made, so getting fired is one way for him to escape being responsible for the roster. Because he was responsible, too.
Input?
Sure, Skiles had input, but unless you have a good sense of exactly what that input was and how much it was heeded, I think it's pretty unfair to draw that conclusion.
I mean, Skiles' input could have been "Hey, Thomas is an assclown, draft Aldridge. And oh yeah, go out and trade Ben Gordon to the TWolves so we can snag Brandan Roy too. He kicks ass."
Or he could have begged Pax to draft Adam Morrison. I dunno, but it all really comes back to the fact that it's ultimately only Pax's call to make. He's the only guy who's responsible and if he wasn't fully on-board with the moves Skiles requested, he ought not to have made them.
all reports
You're probably right,
My impression was that part of the agreement was that if the Bulls weren't to start contending soon, Boylan would be given the green light to go with the young guys. If it comes to that (non-contention--which all indications are it already has) then at least he's got a chance to show what he might or might not be capable of.
But we we're never really rooting for Boylan
I don't really care how happy the Bulls players are either. They may have smiles all over their faces now because Boylan is there but I think the Bulls could really use someone right now who understands their weaknesses and strengths more to their advantage.
The point is to win games, not to keep players happy.
Winning eventually makes players happy.
It's been argued back and forth here
I also root for good karma to come to the good people involved. I always feel better when the institutions (the Bulls, in this case) `do right' by their people.
However, I do appreciate your point. In the competitive world of pro sports, the `greater good' is winning, so winning should always be the top priority. But I'm also a little soft-hearted, and I believe there's such a thing as winning the right way, and that that represents an even greater good.
I appreciate yours as well BUT
There is no greater good beyond that
I agreee, but
Yeah
My only point is to bring in a new coach ASAP so he sees what he can work with next year and then go to Paxson and tell him what he thinks of the team and what he can and can not work with.
If Pax got players that were Skiles kind of guys, wouldn't he want to do the same for the next coach?
It's better to do it now before he pulls a major trade.
All I'm saying is forget who the fuck is happy and what's a feel good story. Get the right formula going as soon as possible cause this one is dying fast
A point on which I would definitely agree
Any way that we can get some player development is fine by me.
A vision of how we want this team to
This team is also making me miserable.
Honestly
The only guy out there that I can even think of that is even considered is Carlisle.
I know Wallace and him didn't get along too famously but I'm starting to think the only coach Wallace would get along with is one that lets him do whatever the fuck he wants.
At least Carlisle helped develop guys in Indiana whilst still winning. I think O'neal had his best years when Carlisle was there. Stephen Jackson even raised his game a bit more
Stats back it up
That was with his first season with Indiana.
That was also the team that won 61 games and 10 in the postseason.
Not bad for a first stint with a relatively young team
In Pax we now question...
Sept. 8, 2004 -- Traded Dikembe Mutombo to the Houston Rockets for Eric Piatkowski, Adrian Griffin and Mike Wilks.
Oct. 4, 2005 -- Traded Eddy Curry and Antonio Davis to New York in exchange for Mike Sweetney, Tim Thomas, Jermaine Jackson, a conditional first round draft pick and two second round draft picks.
June 28, 2006 -- Acquired the draft rights to No. 4 pick Tyrus Thomas and Viktor Khryapa from Portland in exchange for the draft rights to No. 2 pick LaMarcus Aldridge (Texas) and a future second-round pick.
June 28, 2006 -- Acquired the draft rights to No. 13 pick Thabo Sefolosha (Switzerland) from Philadelphia for the draft rights to No. 16 pick Rodney Carney (Memphis), New York's 2007 second-round pick and cash.
July 13, 2006 -- Signed free agent Ben Wallace to a contract.
July 14, 2006 -- Acquired P.J. Brown and J.R. Smith from the New Orleans/Oklahoma City Hornets in exchange for Tyson Chandler.
July 20, 2006 -- Traded J.R. Smith to the Denver Nuggets in exchange for Howard Eisley and two 2007 second-round draft picks from the Nuggets.
July 31, 2006 -- Signed free agent Adrian Griffin to a contract.
October 31, 2006 -- Re-signed Kirk Hinrich to a multi-year extension.
July 18, 2007 -- Re-signed free agent Andrés Nocioni.
if anyone he trades or acquires going forward will still be on the team beyond 1 year (a host), pine away on the bench (Viktor) or become a poison (Ben Wallace)? History tells us he wasn't the type of GM to pull a trade on the likes of a Garnett or Kobe because they're still in playing in the NBA as starters. Yet, Paxson seems very liberal with the cash to those on his good side
Hscs, close your eyes.
And there are different types of traders. Some like to take big, all-or-nothing plunges. These are often guys who trade on gut instinct. Others would rather make regular, repeated, incremental gains, looking for small perceived edges in a deal.
This is Paxson. When he made the trade with Portland, for example, he probably felt there wasn't enough information available on Aldridge and TT to determine which was the better prospect...but if he could get a slight mathematical edge he'd feel the deal was worth doing. He then took the edge he so `cleverly' squeezed out of Portland and turned it into another micro deal with Philadelphia.
Both deals should have been relatively risk-free, particularly the Partland deal in which Paxson was `taking advantage' of Portland's strong (but in Paxson's analysis, unwarranted) preference for Aldridge.
Paxson is not a `big deal' guy, and doesn't know how to gauge his risk on a big deal. The Wallace trade is a perfect example. Detroit was only too happy to let Wallace go, and Paxson's radical overpayment gave them an `honorable' out.
But the problem with taking the plunge on a big deal is that, if it goes south, you are left with a lot of bailing to do to get back above water.
I'm desperately trying not to be a Negative Nancy
1- We may end up with an unexpected good draft pick
2- Yes Paxson made a huge error with the essential Chandler - the Corpse switch but all GMs make mistakes. He did get us out from under the Jalen Rose mess. I still believe he is capable of righting the ship.
3- We know this team has the potential to play good basketball (see last year).
4- We have good young players
5- TT, Noah, Thabo and Gray could improve and be important pieces for us to be a top team.
6- The right coach/chemistry could change this around relatively quickly.
The above camouflages my depression, desperation and anger I have regarding this team.
Hey! chgbor
"This team is a mess" thread.
You'll need to save this for the next thread/blog entry titled something like
"What we need to do to improve going forward" or
"We're not that far away from being a elite team" or
"We have all of the pieces except a vocal SG leader/all-star and a new coach" or
something similiar.
Reinsdorf's playoffs expectations can't die
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 1:27 PM CST up reply actions
Noah video
http://weblogs.wgntv.com/sports/basketball/bulls/blog/2008/01/no_noah.html
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 12:24 PM CST reply actions
I think Boylan wants us to believe
Personally, I'd be very surprised if the vote was unanimous.
Saying, as Boylan does, that "the entire team came to him" is like saying the entire country voted George Bush into office. Yes, the entire country voted, but no, we did not vote him in unanimously. (In fact, he received less than a majority vote, but I don't think we need to get into the arcane intricacies of the electoral college to see through Boylan's bullshit on this one.)
So the truth, more than likely, is that this was just another act ripping the team apart, pitting play against player...rather than the `team unifier' we're being led down the rosy path to believe.
I smell the rat of deception--on top of all the other BS going on--in this thing.
Agreed
So now Boylan is lying
don't confuse the issue
This extra suspension is caused by a sorta-mutiny, and the reason it's now being a big deal. For what it's worth, anonymous Bulls players told KC that the vote was unanimous as well.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 1:35 PM CST up reply actions
KC is such a team apologist
I'd rather read about
As long as I'm getting into how I'd like to see things show up in the beat articles, how about the coaching staff grows a brain (just one, I'm not asking too much) and takes the attention off of the players for once? Boylan should be taking the blame for fighting and yelling in his practices, and Ron Adams should be saying something other than "no comment."
Maybe Ron Adams
I love your hypocricy at every turn.
But I'll go ahead tell you what he's like because I know. We hang out. No one knows what goes on other than me."
--sue369
All of what
You just want to argue so I'm not going to respond to you any more.
Actually
No, not "actually."
I saw Kirk's interview where he said that. He's looking down, away, anywhere but straight at the camera. Did he look like someone who believed what he was saying? Not to me. It's the same as Boylan's "entire team." By implication, we're supposed to believe it was unanimous. That's the way propaganda works, not truth.
And I'm not a person who enjoys a good conspiracy theory either. It just seems to me these guys are lying.
Yes, Bullshooter, I'd rather believe a straight shooter like Noah than a guy who slowly and painstakingly measures every word for its print impact...like Boylan. (So what if I defended him two hours ago?)
Yes actually,
No, again, a "team decision"
...and as an aside, a team captain that can't look at you when he's talking to you is pathetic.
and..."never" is a big word. He never looks at the camera?
No he doesn't.
be careful
Hey Matt, Is Jay Marriotti your alter ego?
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/mariotti/739926,mariotti011408c2.article
by Ibleedbullsred on Jan 14, 2008 12:58 PM CST reply actions
I wish the group of us here could get together
Thats intresting
I think for sure it would have to be Matt Hscs, and Sue (for female bulls fans and hinrich fans alike). ehh just bored and thinking about stuff....
He might go for it if we could convince him
IT would be great Publicity
"The fans here are really great, they watch the games and they consider everything that somtimes my staff and I ever overlook. At the same time they understand that there are things that they cannot understand and only those of us inside the oganization can see. This encounter gave both sides a chance to look outside the box and see the organization from all aspects. We got alot of good ideas across" ...thats just the type of quote i can see pax giving.
I wouldnt mind if everyone could go, but im thinking theres alot of bloggers here, that we really dont see, only matt probably has the real number of how many people are joined here. I guess if you only wanted to take teh regulars, or maybe have a diary contest.... getting too ahead of myself?? i can dream.
Oh, please!!
But to take this fantasy seriously...I'd say, if anything, it should be the people who have put the time and effort into creating and maintaining their own blogs. So that would be...I'm not even sure...Matt, hscs, Sports2, and a few more, I'm pretty sure.
uh
hey, I'm criticizing.
Bulls fans...
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 14, 2008 3:52 PM CST up reply actions
That is true but..
that would be nice
I had an e-mail dialogue with Paxson 4 years ago.
insinuation theater
1)Adams told Noah to learn the plays as it'll help them be a winning team, and Noah responded (roughly): "who are you to tell me about winning" (with 'MFers' peppered in there)
- Saturday night in Atlanta was part-ay time. (not sure why that's news for an NBA team, it must've been a hell of a romp)
- Ben Wallace is poisoning the locker room and should never be counted on for leadership.
- The Bulls can't wait to get rid of Tyrus Thomas, soon, and for anything.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 2:24 PM CST reply actions
Are these the same sources
by KT on Jan 14, 2008 2:28 PM CST up reply actions
Aren't most Kobe trades imminent
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
there never was a trade on the table
by KT on Jan 14, 2008 3:57 PM CST up reply actions
So the "Kobe voided trade x"
I thought I read quotes from Kobe that he voided a trade and this was it.
by NBA Observer on Jan 14, 2008 4:00 PM CST up reply actions
Paxson has said many times that
I'm sure Mitch was entertaining the trade talks simlpy to appease Kobe until Phil could try to convince him to stay.
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 14, 2008 4:06 PM CST up reply actions
Yes
Hanley talked about the ESPN guys telling Deng at the New Jersey game that he'd been traded, and Hanley told everyone they were all wrong. An LA beat writer told TrueHoop that the stuff was coming from Kobe's agent and Kupchak wasn't looking to move Kobe at all.
Despite what was reported, Kupchak held all the cards. There's no way Kobe wasn't going to show up and play, no matter what he threatened.
by KT on Jan 14, 2008 4:09 PM CST up reply actions
So...
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 14, 2008 3:55 PM CST up reply actions
I'm a Thomas fan because I'm a Bulls fan.
I think Thomas can be a great player, and he just needs 25-30 minutes a night. He being traded, probably in a package like this, would signal to me this team has no clue what's going on. Then I could give up until their's a regime change. For now, I'm still holding out hope for Paxson.
That's all fine and good but...
I admire the fact that you are up front about it, but don't be surprised when real Bulls fan no longer give a damn what you think about anything Bulls related.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 15, 2008 12:30 AM CST up reply actions
i love that quote
Noah says alot...
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 14, 2008 3:53 PM CST up reply actions
I don't have to look up Adams' accomplishments
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
Now you force me to look up
OK. Let's see, on Philly he was on board for a couple of last place finishes...a couple of pre-Popo years with the Spurs...scouting for a mixed bag of Portland teams...let's see, served as a consultant for Japanese baskeball (now there's something to put on your NBA resume)....
Hmm. I think we might be able to bring in Adams' record for review after all, and fairly ask, what does he know about winning, compared to one of the winningest handful of college players in a generation? (One who also comes from a championship family heritage.)
I still vote for Noah.
I won the school spelling bee in 2nd grade
Except...
I'm actually not on Noah's side in this part of the debate, but I do think he has half an argument.
I could name a ton of players
worked with George Karl
Adams is considered one of the best assistant coaches in the league - they vote on those things, and he's always up there.
by KT on Jan 14, 2008 3:05 PM CST up reply actions
I left that out
I still pick Noah.
It's pretty much that I'm picking him by default, because I'm so pissed off at anything that smacks of the team's management. Maybe tomorrow I'll side with management, but today this fiasco just has me too emotionally against them.
Trade for Gasol
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/features/traderesult?players=2429~285~1981~3032~3195~996&teams=29~2 9~29~29~4~4&te=&cash=
You're not going to get Gasol without giving Memphis a lot. And while Hinrich's name hasn't come up yet, his name should be included for Memphis.
Memphis gets what they need: a solid PG who can run their offense. They don't have that, although they will get it from Conley in a year or two. Memphis can play Deng at the 4 alongside Miller at 3 and Milicic at 5. Off the bench they have Thomas and Warrick. Solid front-court.
Griffin is just trade-fodder, he can be exchanged for cash.
Chicago can start Duhon at PG while Conley takes the rest of the season to get used to Chicago's playbook (or lack thereof until a new coach is signed). Chicago gets its low post player. They get 4 years of Pau and 2 of Conley, a tandem they can build around.
Chicago lineup:
duhon/conley
gordon/sefalosha
nocioni/khryapa (or Griffin if exchanged for cash)
Gasol/Smith
Wallace/Noah/Gray
next season (question marks, will other players fill these roles? also, assuming gordon is gone):
conley/duhon?
duhon?/sefalosha
nocioni/khryapa?
Gasol/Smith
Noah/Wallace/Gray
You can't expect to give up your junk and get Gasol. Giving up Deng and Hinrich is not a loss if you get Gasol and Conley, who will become a solid starting point guard. Yes, you'll end up losing for much of the rest of the season, but from the looks of it-- you're going to lose anyway. Get a lottery pick, spend the season calibrating your new players and signing a coach.
should be noted, I am a Pistons fan, but a supporter (and now a sympathizer) of the Chicago Bulls. Yes, we do exist... ;)
by number32 on Jan 14, 2008 3:25 PM CST reply actions
updated:
by number32 on Jan 14, 2008 3:31 PM CST up reply actions
uh, they're not going to trade Conley
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 3:33 PM CST up reply actions
Normally I'd scoff at this proposal Piston-lover!
by RogersPark Kris on Jan 14, 2008 3:34 PM CST up reply actions
ambassador
And RogersPark Kris, I appreciate the "non scoff" :)
While I am a Pistons fan, I've always respected the Bulls' blue collar play that reminds me of how my team played in '03. Besides, I like the Bulls/Pistons rivalry. Bulls fans are, as a whole, much smarter and more sportsmanlike that other team's fans-- say Boston, specifically. You should see the BS we get from Celtics fans over at DetroitBadBoys.com (where I post as Mike Payne)... Sure, we Bulls/Pistons fans have shared our spats on the web, but I think at the end of the day we're all decent people.
Whatever trade you make, if you do, I wish you and yours plenty of luck and good fortune.
by number32 on Jan 14, 2008 3:49 PM CST up reply actions
What a piece of sh*t franchise the
The management, the coaches, and the "Core" (laugh) are so concerned with making self-righteous, sanctimonious proclamations about proper character that they forgot that their job is to win games. This isn't a seminary, it's a basketball team. Sometimes, the best players aren't the nicest guys. Jordan and Pippen weren't upstanding citizens. Nor was Rodman a paragon of humility and virtue. Neither is Kobe or LeBron or Rasheed Wallace or a bunch of other elite talents. Who fucking cares?
The lesson within the Bulls' culture is clear: if you aren't a meek, overachieving, undersized conformist, you will be punished and ostracized. Tyrus learned that lesson last season during the All-Star game controversy. Noah is now being baptized into the Church of Paxson, where the cardinal sin is a failure to sprint from the pew to the altar.
You want to know the truth? I don't care if Noah lambasted Ron Adams. I don't care if Noah took a steaming dump on Ron Adams' desk. I don't care if the remainder of the team became frightened when they saw someone exhibiting competitive hubris.
However, as a season ticket holder, I do care that suspending Noah for two games decreased our chances of victory. I do care that consistently playing the mediocre but diligent, decent hacks has resulted in a 14-21 record. And, more than anything, I do care that the Bulls staff seems incapable of developing athletic young talent, in part because they repeatedly implement the same imperious, abrasive teaching techniques that invariably fail. (Honestly, what did Noah learn from this suspension? That Ron Adams is a pussy, that Boylan is a powerless puppet, that certain of his teammates feel threatened by his presence on the roster, that autonomy will be punished, that he can be publicly humiliated by the very people who are supposed to be his mentors? There is no evidence this suspension will cause Noah to suddenly become a docile team player who assidously studies his playbook. If anything, he'll simply become more withdrawn, apathetic, and recalcitrant.) Maybe the Bulls should try some different modes of communication.
Paxson,, stop trying to mold young men. Stop trying to run a professional franchise like it's the high school basketball team from Hoosiers. Win games. Win. Win. Win. That is your mandate. That is the only thing that matters. If winning means having to compromise your precious, old fashioned, quaint principles, then do it. Put the best players on the floor, even if you wouldn't want them to date your daughter or raise your son or babysit your senile grandmother.
The alternative is to trade away Tyrus, trade away Noah, and surround yourself with decent, family oriented veterans who have verticals lower than the mean January temperature in Chicago and who will finish in the sixth seed every season before being humiliated in the playoffs. Maybe that is your aim.
I think that's twice in as many days you
Beyond that though, Pax has not only failed in valuing character over talent, but the character guys he acquired have proven to not be so.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 14, 2008 3:39 PM CST up reply actions
Another Unanimous Vote
Am I the only one who is somewhat suspicious of
Don't get me wrong, I have no doubt every team member voted to have Noah suspended, I just wonder how meaningful many of those votes were.
If AG, Wallace, and the Core (giggle) all voted to suspend Noah, I can't imagine Tyrus or Viktor (for example) standing up to defend Noah, especially in a culture of paranoia where it has been demonstrated that dissenters are singled out and censured by the team.
I was waiting for you two to come together.
I doubt there is any conspiracy.
What incentive does someone have for voting against the majority in the matter of Noah's punishment?
In other words, I don't really think you can make much of the "unanimous" team decision, one way or another.
The bigger issue is that the team was making the decision, not the coaches.
Yup
They are probably thinking
Enough is Enough
This has got to stop. I like a little controversy, but this is out of control or getting there. Losing is never good.
I underestimated Skiles authority to keep things under control...
My apology, I hope he smooths out around the edges and takes his coaching to the next level.
Billy Donovan, in today's SunTimes,
"Donovan said. "He just wants to win and [if] there's one thing I've always respected and admired about Jo it's that [he dislikes] losing more than anyone I've ever coached.""
http://www.suntimes.com/sports/basketball/bulls/740293,donovan011408.article
like I said before, pax should fire himself
He, whose best move was the curry trade...
He, who fired a good coach when didnt have anyone else
He, who had better not trade Ty2 before given a chance to grow (see Ty1 for current reference)
He should can his own arse
It's no fun anymore
The problem is not
If he doesn't like it
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