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Duhon/Gordon/Deng/Nocioni/Noah

As Stacy King said: "that's a good group right there". (in between saying 'energy' and 'intensity', no doubt)

At the time Duhon came in for Hinrich to form that lineup at 4:53 in the 3rd quarter the score went from 53-43 Bobcats to 91-82 Bulls by the end of the game.

As noted by the telecast, they kept running a play where Duhon would come up to the 3 point line on the near side, and dribble back against 2 screens, first by Nocioni and then Noah. And it seemed that every time, Okafor would follow Noah out and try and challenge Duhon way out by the 3 point line, leaving the paint free of their shotblocker for Noc, Deng, or Gordon to get an easy look or at least cause an extra rotation to leave a shooter open.

And after doing fine work in setting those screens, Noah effectively finished the game at 1:30 left with a jumpshot, capping a great night from him. Box score delight: Nocioni with 11 rebounds, allowing a frontcourt pairing of him and Noah to survive on the glass enough to keep their offensive talents on the court.

That game-saving lineup came after an abysmal start to the 3rd quarter, where after the first 9 minutes the team was 3-10 from the field with 9 turnovers. Skiles had been trying combinations all game, from the new starting lineup to a second-quarter combination of Duhon/Deng/Noah/Smith/Wallace, with Noah taking the wing player on defense. To his credit, Skiles stuck with the group that was working without over-playing them to exhaustion. Or even if they were exhausted, they didn't stop making shots.

One common denominator was that lineups with Kirk Hinrich were generally bad, as he had yet another terrible game. I don't know how he was only credited for one turnover, but he looked careless with the ball, afraid to shoot (especially around the rim), and foul-happy. His 3rd foul of the first half was just by being lazy. After Derek Anderson shot a three, Hinrich neither went to the glass or went down court, he instead stood and watched, so while Anderson was moving to follow his miss Hinrich was slow to react and picked up the foul. Cue the patented slumped shoulders.

Duhon, as a part of the aforementioned lineup of awesome, played very well, and all game was actually getting to the rim and finishing, which I didn't know point guards were allowed to do. (And I don't just mean that in a 'cause I haven't seen it from Hinrich' way, but I thought it wasn't regarded as a 'pure' point guard move. heh.)

Yet despite yet another appearance from Hinrich's alter-ego, the Mopey Iowan, Skiles said postgame that he will keep the same starting lineup next game. I'm fine either way at this point: on the one hand Hinrich will eventually play better and seeing Duhon/Gordon/Deng/Smith/Wallace against the Pistons almost concedes defeat. However, Hinrich did re-injure his left hand, and maybe it's time to play up that injury and give the captain a break.

Other more random observations:

  • The aggressively maligned (by me, anyway) insertion of Joe Smith in the starting lineup didn't exactly produce as a group, but Smith himself shot well. It looked like he hurt himself near the end of the first half, and while he stayed in the game and started the 2nd half, he looked a bit slowed.
     
  • Luol Deng was the only one consistently making shots, even in that awful third quarter. We saw a return of the automatic midrange jumper, with a dose of his new tricks. 30 points.

  • The referees were kinda screwin' the Bulls over all night, especially (as usual) on Ben Gordon drives.
     
  • Hope David Stern enjoys that fancy new publicly-financed arena in Charlotte. That's always empty.
     
  • Final play of the first half, the Bulls patented complicated 'give it to Gordon' play turned up alright as instead of trapping Ben after the screen, the they just kept Matt Carroll on him. Gordon was able to get space at the elbow and hit a moderately-tough leaner.
     
  • Stacy: "Gerald Wallace doesn't get a lot of credit for his defense". eh? Going to games in person costs a lot, but at least I get to miss the telecast when I'm at the UC.
     
  • Jared Dudley, emboldened by his first start, wasn't shy in going shot 0-6 in 20 minutes. Makes me think how Tyrus Thomas would do on a bad team like Charlotte with (apparently) minutes to spare.
     
  • Tyrus Thomas finished with 6 minutes. The way Noah played tonight he may be even further down the bench, although maybe he earns some brownie points with a good game against the Pistons, which he's been known to have.

So things ended up fine, a road win is a road win, even if it was against the Bobcats (Ben Wallace's new favorite team, 8 boards, 2 blocks and a steal in 22 minutes proving even the half-dead version could do damage against these guys). But it was far from good times up until then, and tough to feel confident going into a weekend back-to-back against the Pistons and Celtics.

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tough to feel confident
Hey - look at it from the positive side:
The Bulls will likely get their clocks cleaned shiny enough that maybe we'll still get a new coach for Christmas...    :-)
Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 5, 2007 10:47 PM CST reply actions  

well I wouldn't wish for that
If Hinrich, Gordon, and Wallace play like they did tonight they'll get pummelled regardless of what coach they have.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 5, 2007 10:51 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha - good point.
Don't get me wrong - I don't dislike Skiles.

I just don't see it getting any better than (at best) a playoff appearance and then out with Skiles at the helm.
It seems rather obvious.

Whether or not a change is made now or in the offseason not withstanding - the result would likely be the same in the end.

Is it spring training yet?

by Bluelou on Dec 5, 2007 10:55 PM CST up reply actions  

they may not be playing great
but they are improving if only slightly.  They're 3-1 in their last four games.  Granted, they lost the only game against a quality opponent in that stretch, but W's are W's and it's nice to see them finally accumulating them with a little more regularity.  Hopefully, the slumps (particularly Hinrich's) end soon and they can get back to the way  they were playing last year down the stretch.

by fundamentallysound on Dec 5, 2007 10:54 PM CST reply actions  

Stacy King
seems to be more tolerable and insightful lately ..

Kirk, just needs some time off to get his mind and game back together.  For a young dude, he was given much responsibility during the last 4 years.  I see know problem having patience with him (Skiles) and allowing him to have less pressure during this period. He'll relax and his game will progress to the next level once he decides so.

It's great to see Duhon playing well.  Let's see if Duhon can bring some consistency to his game during this stretch.  He'l probably need to cut down on the late nights ....  Is Duhon ready for this level of responsibility night after night?  If Bulls want to get more Win rather than Losses, then he'll need to be ready

 

by exult463 on Dec 5, 2007 11:33 PM CST reply actions  

Wish it Thabo
I agree with your thoughts on Duhon, but am very disappointed that we're not saying those things about Thabo.  He was supposed to be the team's M2GwcDaS and I prefer him to Duhon because he's tall and skilled enough to lock down the premier shooting guards in the league and take pressure off Gordon and Hinrich.  

Besides the fact that the Bulls suck horribly, one of the most disappointing stories of this season to me has been how poorly Thabo has played in the few minutes he gets.  

Tangential comment.  Was on my mind.

by paxson43 on Dec 6, 2007 7:03 AM CST up reply actions  

Thabo's off season
Thabo spent most of the off season working on offense.  He was the primary scorer for Team Switzerland in the FIBA Europe A League qualifier.

Apparently he came to camp thinking he was going to be a scorer, but when put on the floor to play defense he's been below average.

You have to be an awesome scorer to get burn under Skiles if you play lackluster defense.

Thabo should prepare more.  Hinrich is playing so poorly that Thabo's minutes may HAVE to increase.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 8:46 AM CST up reply actions  

C-Du After Hours
Might we get off Du's back for the moment about his  proclivity for the night life?  Even if he is tasting the milk & honey that most 20-something year olds dream of, he has been an effective player on the court.  

Several squad members during the "glory years" spent a considerable amount of time at Marche after games and well into the late night/early morning.  One Bull in particular was an after hours regular at Limelight. However, other than our man Sam, not too many made a big deal of what these pros were doing on their own time.  

The whole "Party Du" thing seems to be unfair hyperbole, the stuff of urban legends, based on a minimal amount of first-hand accounts.  Living in LV, I can attest that for every single true celebrity sighting, there are numerous other instances where somebody claims to see a famous person (who may actually perpetuate this notion to either feel important or get some action) who, in actuality, turns out to be a regular Joe.

I am not saying that C-Du doesn't go out, but have YOU actually seen him partying, this season, with your own two eyes?

"It is not he same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring." ~Spanish Proverb"

by VivaLosToros on Dec 6, 2007 12:34 PM CST up reply actions  

LOL!!
You must be new here.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 6, 2007 1:13 PM CST up reply actions  

Not really
I don't post much, but have been reading Matt's blog since it was on the old site.

I grow weary from the negativity employed by various bloggers, especially the broken-record remarks that may or may not be accurate.

"It is not he same to talk of bulls as to be in the bullring." ~Spanish Proverb"

by VivaLosToros on Dec 6, 2007 5:10 PM CST up reply actions  

Then you've seen the pictures.
All from the same few nights? Perhaps. Probably not, though.
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 6, 2007 5:53 PM CST up reply actions  

huh?
Hate to Miles you like that, but seriously, huh?

I'm sorry if I've put anyone off, of course the original comment could be about anyone.

Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 6, 2007 6:22 PM CST up reply actions  

About Duhon not being a partier...
Were his exploits not documented quite well with pictures last year?
Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 6, 2007 6:58 PM CST up reply actions  

i was very confused
I noticed in my blog/news feeds those pictures are still getting posted. Most of them are probably from his Duke days too.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 6, 2007 7:07 PM CST up reply actions  

I don't think that reputation is from blogs
ok, maybe the photos.

However I didn't know or care about it until Duhon started missing practices and the media (namely Brian Hanley on the score) would make open references to Duhon's party-ways.

Considering that a partying athlete is pretty standard, the fact that Duhon's declared fair game by the MSM means his antics must be significantly above(below?)-average.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 7, 2007 9:37 AM CST up reply actions  

the guy went to the Uggs grand opening
That's just crossing the line, man.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 7, 2007 9:46 AM CST up reply actions  

Maybe so
But, Duhon partying was also getting some extensive burn on AM1000 this week before the Tuesday night game by none other than Storming Norm Van L.

Maybe Norm is reading this blog, or maybe it's just something they joke about within the organization without any real susbtance to back it other than a few web photos.  Yet, he seemed fairly serious in his comments when speakly in regards to Duhon's conditioning over the long haul and life in the NBA.

by exult463 on Dec 6, 2007 10:57 PM CST up reply actions  

LET'S GO CATS!!!
Has to be the worst attempt at pumping up a NBA crowd.  I don't even expect chants that awful from the D-league.
I love you Ben, you almost make me forget about...tacos.

by eddiew23 on Dec 6, 2007 6:58 AM CST reply actions  

That guy
was flippin annoying. With it being so empty in there his voice boomed even more.
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 6, 2007 7:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I put my
Bulls cell phone cover on this morning so maybe it will bring them some much needed wins. ;-)
Please get this season turned around and play some great basketball.

by sue369 on Dec 6, 2007 7:34 AM CST reply actions  

Noah
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Barring injury he will play more minutes than TT b/c he is more ready to deal with the pressures of the NBA both physically and mentally.

by haze on Dec 6, 2007 8:59 AM CST reply actions  

Did you see it?
Skiles put the lineup on the floor in the first quarter that we all wanted to see.

5-Wallace
4-Thomas
3-Nocioni
2-Deng
1-Duhon

The Good...
~48% from the field
38 points in the 4th quarter
Noah yielding essentially ZERO points to Okafor in the 4th quarter.  Okafor had a put back dunk and two free throws.  The Bobcats dumped it into the post for Okafor maybe twice in the 4th.

The Bad...
Stacey's KYP(Know Your Personnel)

  1. Kirk leaking off JRich in the corner for a silly reach towards a driving Felton when Ben Wallace is camped in the paint to deny the shot.  Felton makes the easy pass and JRich nails the three.
  2. Give Primoz Brezec the 18 foot jump shot.  Nocioni puts a hand up leaving JRich to go around Brezec to camp behind the arc.  Brezec passes back to JRich and he nails the three.
  3. Gerald Wallace is a piss poor shooter from beyond 15 feet.  The scouting report is clear, he drives and slashes and wants to get to the free throw line.  Noc, Deng, and Thomas were all burned by mediocre shot fakes gift wrapping and 1 opps for Gerald Wallace.
Conclusion: The Bobcats are a severely under performing team.  They rarely run plays for Okafor in the post.  When they do, everyone stands still waiting for the pass.  Richardson shoots way too many threes.  60% of his attempts are from downtown.  For a guy that can elevate, where is his dribble penetration game?  Does he have one?

The Bobcats really need another big man.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 8:59 AM CST reply actions  

Jason Kidd "on strike"
http://slamonline.com/online/2007/12/is-kidd-sending-a-message-with-day-off/

Kidd basically called in sick last night and the Nets lost.

Could we bring Jason Kidd to Chicago?

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 9:20 AM CST reply actions  

Err... Kidd hates Skiles
And beyond that, why would we want to pay a huge salary to another over the hill guy who want get us over the hump?

by Sports2 on Dec 6, 2007 9:27 AM CST reply actions  

oh crap
Forgot about that.  I'm just looking for players to acquire in exchange for Kirk.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 9:47 AM CST up reply actions  

why?
He doesn't have any trade value right now, and why dump him for nothing when it's perfectly reasonable to expect better play from him eventually. Reactionary trades don't benefit the team.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 6, 2007 9:51 AM CST up reply actions  

The contract
Kirk's contract looks awful observing his play this season.  Sure, it gets less expensive in each year, but 8 figures for a guy playing like a CBA player is stressing me out.

Jared Jordan is on the FA list gathering dust.  I'd like to see him in Chicago.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 9:59 AM CST up reply actions  

at least with Jared Jordan
we get a CBA player at a CBA price.

I don't know how much longer Kirk has to be terrible for me to worry long-term, but it's not yet.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 10:10 AM CST up reply actions  

we've got that injury excuse now
The injury buys Kirk an end of year holiday reprieve from me.  I'd like to put weight on a hand injury as the problem, but Kirk doesn't move his feet with his hands on defense.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 10:17 AM CST up reply actions  

Automatic midrange jumper
Luol Deng was the only one consistently making shots, even in that awful third quarter. We saw a return of the automatic midrange jumper, with a dose of his new tricks. 30 points.

I've been thinking that maybe Deng should never have tried to expand his post-up offensive game.  

He is what he is--a great guy in space, who can make that mid-range jumper consistently and can cut to the basket if he's overplayed.  Why have him try to set up on the blocks to take advantage of a mismatch?  

Get Deng back to playing his game (from last year) and some of the problems this team has been having disappear.  Keeping Hinrich tethered to the bench for a few more games would eliminate even more problems.

by nateroth on Dec 6, 2007 9:45 AM CST reply actions  

who is what they is
at 22?

I like that he's trying to score closer to the basket. If he's going to be a near-max player it'd be nice to see some diversity to his offensive game, especially the kind that doesn't require him to be open.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 9:49 AM CST up reply actions  

Noah's IQ
Noah is a pretty smart player.  He'll get better with experience.  But last night in the 4th he found Gerald Wallace guarding him and immediately went into the low block and called for the ball.  He faked middle and came up and under with an easy layup.  Wallace isn't going to muscle anyone, but Noah saw the mismatch and took advantage of it.

The teams that consistently compete for conference titles are the best teams in the league at exploiting match-ups.  The Spurs and Pistons are the two top teams employing this strategy consistently.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 9:57 AM CST up reply actions  

right on
on Noah...

Yet, I have to vent for a moment... Why are the Bulls promoting Wallace as "the body" and he plays with so little strength?  I can't watch to see so many underhanded scoop ("little girly") layups that rarely go in.

If he's "the body" then put the ball in the basket in the tradition of a Dennis Rodman.  Dunk the basketball and put the defender's wrists also in the basket if he attempts to block the shot.  

I think Ben is playing like a poser or either he is a sixty mil. poser?

by exult463 on Dec 6, 2007 11:16 PM CST up reply actions  

Which Dennis are you talking about?
By the time he was Ben's age, Rodman was a master of the blown layup as well.  

by Scotter on Dec 7, 2007 8:10 AM CST up reply actions  

OK....
...but then you are going to have to deal with the bad performances that he puts up.

If you want to treat him as a 22-year-old who is still developing his offensive skills, then it is not reasonable to expect him to be the best player on a team that was supposed to contend for #1 in the East.

If you take him back to doing what he has done so well in the past, then you can expect the good performances he has provided in the past.

by nateroth on Dec 6, 2007 10:38 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll take the other side of this.
Look at last year's all-star starters:  Kobe, T-Mac, Garnett, Duncan, Yao, Wade, Arenas, LeBron, Bosh, Shaq.  Is there a single player among them whose game has significantly changed since their 22nd birthday, and for whom that change catapulted them to stardom?  If you're an athlete, and you're gonna be great, the pattern is nearly always set by the time you're 22.  In fact, the opposite is more the anomaly...other than through the necessity of injury (or, possibly, steroids), it's very rare for a great player to have become great by altering his game later in his career.

I'm sure it has happened, but for every one, there are probably ten for whom you already knew everything about their game by age 22.

Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 6, 2007 10:44 AM CST up reply actions  

that's just like, not true
Players get better in their early 20s, it's science.  

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 11:02 AM CST up reply actions  

I think he's talking about their "game"
As in... who went from a slasher to a shooter after the age of 22? Or something.

He's implying that people are saying Deng should go from a jump-shooter to a post-up man.

I guess it's easy to build up false arguments and then tear those down than it is to address the actual argument. I think there's a name for it...

Let us prepare for glory! --Michael Redd

by tyger1147 on Dec 6, 2007 11:09 AM CST up reply actions  

exactly
I think we're "asking" for a pretty minor change in Deng's game.

I can't find the quote, but Deng said something after game about how he wasn't hitting shots in the 3rd and told himself to just attack the rim. Not sure he would have tried that before.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 11:25 AM CST up reply actions  

attack the rim
I like that, hope Deng listens to himself

If the Bulls attacked more it would defintely help to get more free throws and easy shots, plus open up 3 shots for others if defense adjusts

by NY Chicago Fan on Dec 6, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

I THINK I see what
nateroth is trying to say, maybe not but I'll give it a stab.  

That there is absolutely nothing wrong with Lu adding another facet to his game...a post game is wanted and needed.  Like you said, for him to justify his contract requests, he needs to be more diverse.

But that change in his game doesn't necessarily have to be a focal part of the Bulls strategy all the time.

I actually kinda agree with the theory.  Sometimes it just seems like Lu is forced down on the block and nothing positive comes from it.  Against certain teams it would be more beneficial for him to go back to his old game.

Use the weapon only when it's needed.  It shouldn't be forced.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 6, 2007 11:52 AM CST up reply actions  

Not quite what I meant
My point was just that during the offseason, Deng obviously was focusing on doing something that he hadn't done in the past--incorporating the post-up game.  I think in large part that was to combat what guys like Prince were able to do to him last year.  Prince posted Deng up a lot in the playoffs, and was able to be aggressive against him out on the wing.  There was an identified need to find a way to counter that.

In my view, the result of this effort was that Deng lost some of what made him so great last year in the first place.  Last year he was lights-out from 18 feet, and he was great at cutting and catching the ball in the lane, leading to inside points.  That is different from posting up, obviously.  

It seems like in the effort to focus on this new part of his game, he had lost a lot of what made him effective last year.  Maybe last night will be the start of turning it around.

by nateroth on Dec 6, 2007 12:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Have you heard of ...
one step back and two forwards ?

It can work pretty well too !

Obviously that's what happens to Deng at the moment, and we'll maybe soon see the two steps forward.

The Game chose him !

by Diabolo on Dec 7, 2007 1:59 AM CST up reply actions  

Hopefully very soon
Although I wouldn't say Deng has been the problem with this year (it's obviously Hinrich and Wallace), I hope his forward steps come quickly before the season is lost and he is gone(?) to another team.

by nateroth on Dec 7, 2007 10:23 AM CST up reply actions  

The "Straw Man"
might be the argument method you're thinking of.

A bunch of driver/dunker types become 3-point shooters to save themselves from injury as they aged (Rex Chapman, Dee Brown) or from wear and tear on their joints (Larry Nance). Rodman went from something of a hustle player to a dominant rebounder long after the age of 22. Ron Harper went from slasher/open court player to primarily a midrange jumpshooter well after 22. I think Pippen developed a post game and a 3-point shot long after the age of 22.

Anyway, it's extremely rare that a person has shown all their skills at 22. At that age there just hasn't been the time to show all facets of one's game.

"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 6, 2007 2:55 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, um, actually it is true.
Yes, nba players generally peak physically around age 28.  But I think the point Nateroth is raising, at least the point as I see it that I'm agreeing with,  is more about the general character of a player's game than about the age of peak athletic performance.  Do great players ad a wrinkle here or there?  Yes.  It might free them up to do more of what they already do best.

Take an obvious example.  Allan Iverson.  He came into the league driving to the basket, taking untold numbers of incredibly hard fouls, getting to the free throw line.  Did he try to improve his outside shooting touch?  Yes.  Did it alter the character of his game? Let's look at last night's box score:  51 points, 18 free throw attempts, 1 three point attempt.  Same game he's played since he came into the league.

Maybe you're trying to say something different, and I'm (not for the first time) missing your point.  (BTW--nice mention on ESPN's True Hoop.)        

Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 6, 2007 11:32 AM CST up reply actions  

Can I use Jordan?
I don't think MJ had his patented post up fade away jump shot until Chicago acquired Pippen.

Tony Parker couldn't shoot the jump shot until his third season.

Deng has had a below average post up game, but a lot of that was due to his physical makeup.  He didn't bulk up until season 3.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 11:56 AM CST up reply actions  

I don't mean to argue exclusively against
Matt's point,just to allow for some leeway on both sides of the question.  I will allow Jordan.  (Who am I to allow or not allow anything?--however, it could be argued that statistically, because he's such an extreme, he'd have to be eliminated.  I think he's what might be refered to as an "outlier" in stat talk.)  
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 6, 2007 12:11 PM CST up reply actions  

Kobe's game has changed
he wasn't comfortable in the post at a young age.  There was also no room while Shaq was standing there, but...  I think you're probably right about great players being great from the beginning.  I don't see anybody 'great' on the bulls right now.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 6, 2007 11:20 AM CST up reply actions  

This just made my brain hurt.
"Why have him try to set up on the blocks to take advantage of a mismatch?"

It's probably because of the mismatch.

by CrashDavis on Dec 6, 2007 10:01 AM CST up reply actions  

But...
....if you take him out of his midrange game he gets into a funk, which is where he's been (along with everyone else).

So yes, maybe if he gets matched up with a shorter SG, we will immediately try to go to him.  My point was that it hasn't really worked all that well so far, so maybe let Deng go back to doing what he does best.

by nateroth on Dec 6, 2007 10:36 AM CST up reply actions  

Well
if he can't develop another facet to his game, he won't be shooting in space for long. And it seemed last night a good chunk of his 30 came from going inside rather than standing on the wing.

by CrashDavis on Dec 6, 2007 10:48 AM CST up reply actions  

Not standing around
A lot of last year's offense was based on finding Deng open from 18-feet or having him cut to the basket.  If he's posting up, that gets taken away (at least for that particular possession).

I'm not saying he shouldn't go inside and just drift around the court to a few steps inside of the three-point line.  He needs to keep moving and attacking the basket when he has the chance.  

I just don't know if it was a good idea to spend the offseason trying to get him to become something that he may not ever be, especially if the Bulls were serious about being a real contender this year.

by nateroth on Dec 6, 2007 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

right
It's not like every team is the Miami Heat, who were too slow or disinterested to close out on Deng the jumpshooter.

And isn't it a necessity that he adds something to his game if the team's going to commit to him long-term for big-money?

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 11:10 AM CST up reply actions  

On the block
"Why have him try to set up on the blocks to take advantage of a mismatch?"

Because it will draw a double team.  Noc drew two double teams going into the post.  On one of them, he backed out, turned, and fired a great pass to Gordon on the opposite baseline for a wide open three that he nailed.

We're not asking Deng to SCORE in the post.  We're looking to get him the ball to draw a double team.  This is the kind of offense we are sadly missing.

Also, whomever Derek Anderson is guarding should immediately call for Deng to come set a screen to force a switch.  DA is terrible defender and gets exponentially worse in the post.  You have to force DA to make plays.

The coaches can call this from the sideline, but we need a floor general to have the vision to see the holes in the defense and call plays to exploit them.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 9:52 AM CST reply actions  

not asking Deng to score
I have to disagree with that comment.  They DO want him to score.  The Bulls and any opponent of theirs should know that Lu doesn't command a double-team in the post, his post game isn't that good yet.  Plus, what good is it if he does get double-teamed if he doesn't pass the ball out?

He had 0 assists last night.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 6, 2007 11:30 AM CST up reply actions  

long run
In the long run, I want Deng to score in the post.  But as long as teams double down on him in the post I say you go to this.  Ditto with Nocioni.

On the assists, the post man won't get credit for an assist if the ball is kicked out and then set around the perimeter to the open man on the opposite baseline.  Duncan doesn't get a lot of assists for the same reason.  He knows exploiting double teams is about moving the ball to the near perimeter and then kicking it around the arc until it reaches Barry or Bowen in the opposite corner.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 11:51 AM CST up reply actions  

I wasn't
equating a post pass with an assist.  I know that doesn't happen all the time.  I watched Curry for 3 years...he would always get blasted for his low assist amount.

What I'm saying is that Lu can't be an effective post player without learning to pass the ball out of the post.  Post passing is just as valuable as post scoring.

Once he's in the post, right now, it seems that his mindframe is "ok I've got the ball, now I must score."  And that's whether he gets doubled or not.

So yes the Bulls DO want him to score in the post.  But to be ultimately effective, he has to learn how to pass out, whether single-covered or double-teamed.

by ScottieCartwright on Dec 6, 2007 11:58 AM CST up reply actions  

Those refs
were a bunch of jokers last night, huh?

Even if I wasn't a total homer of a Bulls fan, anyone can see that they went out of their way to keep that dangerous Bulls team in check. Way to kick us while we're down, refs.

Example:  in the fourth quarter when Nocioni skied for a rebound over Emeka, who was somewhat away from the trajectory of the ball. The refs blew a loose ball foul as if to say, "Hey, no rebounding over Emeka Okafor! There must have been a foul!" I believe that was when Skiles earned a technical, resulting in three points' worth of free throws at a crucial stretch in the game, but I think he was well warranted. That call was a steaming pile, as were many of them last night.

As for Ben Gordon, their ill treatment of him was not only on his drives but anytime someone was driving on him, as well.

Tne one notable break that went the Bulls' way was when Gerald Wallace fouled Duhon trying to get a steal at the end. I thought it just as easily could have been a travel on Duhon or a jump ball.

As you mentioned, it sure was awesome to see Duhon turning the corner and taking it to the rack. I can't even remember the last time Kirk took it to the hole like that. Who would have thought that Duhon could be considered athletic enough to take the other team's PG to the hole and convert in crunch time, not once but multiple times? The partying point guard deserves a hand.

"But Butch, you said we could challenge you anytime we wanted to." "That's because I thought you never would."

by bullhockey on Dec 6, 2007 10:35 AM CST reply actions  

I didn't see the game
but after looking at the gameflow I am not that excited about the win.  Skiles rode the same 5 guys for a quarter and a half and BG and Deng for the entire second half.  This is the same stunt he's pulled in the past.  Usually the guys make a furious run, tie the game and then fall short.  The fact that they actually beat the bobcats is probably more of an indictment of a poor bobcats team than anything.  Noc and Deng were the only guys who seemed to have a good game, and "Matt" Duhon of course.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 6, 2007 10:40 AM CST reply actions  

Joakim?
The Noah ship finally set sail last night.  How about putting some wind in his sails?

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 10:56 AM CST up reply actions  

You blow enough
around here for everybody.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 6, 2007 11:22 AM CST up reply actions  

and the rest
will be taken care of by David Thorpe :)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 11:27 AM CST up reply actions  

I agree
usually if Skiles finds something working in the 2nd half, he rides it until they die. Luckily it didn't happen last night.

However, since the players in that lineup included 3 bench players, Skiles may have been less apprehensive to change things up if they did start to slow.

Smith and Noah also played alright, and I thought Tyrus had a fine 6 minutes, including a reverse layup that should put away the Tyson Chandler comparisons for good.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 10:59 AM CST up reply actions  

While I agree that the Bobcats aren't that great
At least Skiles had the testicular fortitude to finally bench Wallace and play Noah pretty much the whole 4rth quarter. They were getting killed up until the 4rth where "the lineup" really shined and completely shut down any offense that the Bobcats were running.

There is also the positives that it's pretty clear that Duhon should be starting ( I can't believe I just wrote that ) and that Noah should get more playing time ( cause' I know Skiles will have Ben Walllace start at least for the immediate future until he realizes what he has ) . I'm not ready to say Count Chuck-Alot (aka Andres Nocioni ) shodl start, but he is showing a better offensive IQ and a toughness that can help, especially when the younger players ( Noah or TT ) are on the floor.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 6, 2007 11:23 AM CST up reply actions  

Wallace
Couldn't Wallace have played exactly the same role as Noah in the offensive set setting the second screen for Duhon on the left wing perimeter?

I ask because I don't really think Wallace was benched, but rather was taken out to get some rest and then Noah was so effective in the 4th that it didn't make any sense to take the kid out.

The other angle asks what in the heck the Bobcats coaches are thinking by not getting Okafor involved in the post in the 4th quarter to protect a lead.  It's a clock killing, foul drawing, tempo slowing strategy that can create plenty of passing lanes and shot opportunities for the Bobcats.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 11:34 AM CST up reply actions  

just shows
the bobcats are more in disarray than the bulls.
Nocioni-Khryapa in '08

by bullshooter on Dec 6, 2007 11:36 AM CST up reply actions  

maybe
Wallace is certainly a far better screener.

But maybe while neither can shoot, they respect Noah's ability to drive more.

Or...like Bullshooter said, the Bobcats are just a mess.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 6, 2007 11:42 AM CST up reply actions  

coaching? players?
Noah's screen scare the crap out of me.  He set a few last night where he was bending his knees and spreading his legs more than shoulder width apart.  I thought he'd get called for illegal screens, but the refs let it go.

It's really hard to believe that with 4:53 remaining in the third and Chicago trailing by 11 they could insert Duhon, run the same offensive play to death, and find themselves up 10 points in the final 2 minutes without A SINGLE adjustment from the Bobcats.

For Vincent's sake, I hope MJ was playing 36 yesterday.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 11:47 AM CST up reply actions  

I would take
Noah's energy on the boards and his ability to run court any day over Wallace's superior ability to set screens.

by RogersPark Kris on Dec 6, 2007 12:14 PM CST up reply actions  

I think
Noah was playing well, is taller than wallace, and due to his energy had a better chance of dunking it, or if he was fouled, better chance of hitting the free throws. It was a game where we were playing catchup, and we were on a roll, so it was probably better to keep things the way they were until something went wrong.

Plus, even though wallace is built, having joakim use his height and girth to clog the lanes and make easy dunks more difficult. Plus, Joakim has a better chance of hitting the 15 ft jumper.

im trying hard to become the next kirk hinrich, therefore im doing nothing more than being the next chris duhon.

by piccolomair on Dec 6, 2007 4:40 PM CST up reply actions  

Well, if you think ...
...something like a 7% chance is better than a 5% chance then yeah, he is better. To me both of them seem less reliable on that mark.  The law of averages says the ball will sometimes go in.

by cranscape on Dec 6, 2007 6:23 PM CST up reply actions  

Is it fair to compare Deng's game
to Shawn Marion's?  Marion is a player who almost never gets plays run specifically for him.  He has occasionally chafed at this, but what he does best is run figure 8's around the paint, scrubbing off defenders, getting off quick, short-range jumpers, and picking up garbage baskets.  To me, that's kind of the blueprint for Deng.  His relentless running and cutting is a highly prized talent in itself, and pays huge dividends to the overall team play.
Ita est, ergo ita sit.

by alec on Dec 6, 2007 12:00 PM CST reply actions  

not really
Marion is athletically superior to most of the NBA. Deng doesn't have the ability to out-run, or out-jump a lot of small forwards.
Officially a hater on Ballhype!

by hscs on Dec 6, 2007 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

Here here. I have thought that
much of the Bulls horridness on offense was a result of not moving the ball, and themselves, as they have in the past. They have been trying to expand their games to include post-ups, but have gotten away from what I like to call "the blender" where they just make teams work very hard to cover them when they are on offense.
I think that had the effect of making the Bulls lose their rhythm on offense as well as saving their opponents a lot of energy trying to slow the Bulls down.
I also like when the Bulls play full-court defense and take advantage of their young legs against older  or even inexperienced teams.

by philosoball on Dec 6, 2007 12:09 PM CST up reply actions  

They have to be careful though.
"The Blender" can lead to too many "BG Turnovers."

Sorry, that was just too easy to pass up.

by CrashDavis on Dec 6, 2007 12:31 PM CST up reply actions  

a couple last night
Deng and Noc each had a BG turnover passing it directly to the opponent while they're breaking away to the other end.

:)

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 2:09 PM CST up reply actions  

i thought the bulls were dead in the water
halfway through the 3rd quarter. my head was about to explode because of the refs and that announcer guy... but then we kicked it into gear and the bulls played hard enough to not let the refs have any more influence on the game.  i thought about chucking my tv off my balcony after that bg basket that was called an offensive foul.  and kirk's 3rd foul was ridiculous as well.  its like the refs are unaware that both players may bump into each other going for a lose ball! i am still in shock at how horrible the refs have become in the nba. matt, i am glad you pointed it out, because i dont like bitching about the refs, but some bulls games this year, i dont know, its like amateur hour with the officials.  

by Conor on Dec 6, 2007 1:03 PM CST reply actions  

How about...
How about Brezec jumping into Nocioni after a 3pt attempt?  Brezec knocked Nocioni down and the official yells, "No foul.  HE FELL ON HIS OWN."

I wanted to break out some Dwayne Wade video just to make myself feel better.

by NBA Observer on Dec 6, 2007 2:08 PM CST up reply actions  

Haha
Yeah you could totally hear that on the feed.

by Jaina on Dec 6, 2007 2:29 PM CST up reply actions  

Perhaps Noc
has become the little boy who flops wolf. I didnt see the play but Im sure the refs harbor doubts about legit contact whenever they see Noc hit the floor.

by pguilian on Dec 6, 2007 4:16 PM CST up reply actions  

A win is a win
even at the expense of the less than mediocre Charlotte Bobcats.

But this team was still very unwatchable for most of the game.

Oh well, I just hope they don't get hammered in Detroit on Friday.

by Outsidergua on Dec 6, 2007 1:46 PM CST reply actions  

Neeed LBJ
When he opts out Bulls better offer him the future for the future.
youtube.com/angryasianace

by AngryAsianAce on Dec 6, 2007 6:07 PM CST reply actions  

I guess nothing cures a bad season
like looking ahead to free agency, two seasons removed.  And I thought all the draft talk was bad...
"I believe. I believe. It's silly, but I believe." (Miracle on 34th Street)

by wjb1492 on Dec 6, 2007 9:36 PM CST up reply actions  

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