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Around SBN: Win or Lose, Boston Celtics' New Big 3 Era A Success

Finally, another Bulls blog(?)

Well it's young, but I've enjoyed reading Thank You Isaiah so far, and not just because of the name.

Here's a sample of their most recent post...and it uses Roland Ratings so it gets my attention:

I don't want the Bulls to make a move this year. Not for AI. Not for Garnett. Not for anyone. I want to see this team play and mature together over the rest of the year and see how it plays out. If it's another first round exit, then fine, make a move, but I'm seeing a Conference Finals in our future this year, and I wouldn't be shocked if they made it to the Finals. That's how good I think this core can be, and there's a chance for them to be that good for a while.

BUT...in all of the trade talk, there are always three main names from our core guys bandied about: Deng (less so now, but I think he's still viewed as expendable for the right superstar, which is still insane, b/c in 2 more years, he will be the right superstar), Nocioni and Gordon. In any event, I was tooling around 82games.com the other day, and the thought arose: Why isn't Hinrich ever considered as expendable as these other guys?

It continues from there with the evidence...

Of course I can't just post such a quote without comment: As I've said several times before when discussing big-picture scenarios, I think the timetable is accelerated through the Wallace signing and Brown's expiring deal where difference-making deals should be aggressively explored. But also I think the numbers presented say more about how good Ben Gordon's been this year (and I'll give him the proper due [in full-length-post form] soon) than it does about Hinrich's relative expendability...and I'm much more hesitant to deal him now than I was a few weeks ago.

But differences in opinion aside, it's a good post. So go there and say hi.

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It's a step up
from the message board nonsense passing as Bulls blogs, and thank you for pointing it out, Matt. I could certainly be more critical (uh, the Hinrich math is far from conclusive and the Hinrich post was written by 'BenGo07', Simmons idolatry, stathead who thinks Nocioni is a good PF), but 'tis the season or something like that.

As far as the notion of a 'core' goes, it would seem the only players with long term deals are Hinrich and Wallace, so considering both untouchables would probably be sound thinking. I'm not discounting Deng, Gordon, or Nocioni's future with the Bulls, only stating the obvious that the organization is officially sold on keeping Hinrich and Wallace. Sure they gave a big contract to Chander, but there wasn't much choice in the matter.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Dec 21, 2006 12:21 AM CST reply actions  

wow you guys sound like your
BASKETBALL MIND GODS....I think you need a gf. I get the creeps just reading this crap. Like watching a Harry Potter movie.

by JoJoEnglish94bulls4ever on Dec 21, 2006 12:45 AM CST reply actions  

Yes, they do need girlfriends...
Not that they'd know what to do with one.  Here's what Matt and PaxJax may look like in the dating world: Link

by Rick S on Dec 21, 2006 1:05 AM CST up reply actions  

Rick you SOB :-)
I'll excuse that comment (even more egregious since you actually know me) as simply an excuse to link to that video.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2006 9:28 AM CST up reply actions  

HA, HA, HA, HA, HA, HA!!!
That was hilarious!  Well that officially kills the idea of any potential blogabull secret santa events in the future...

by Bullschicago on Dec 21, 2006 10:54 AM CST up reply actions  

I saw that
isn't that second guy Eddie Griffin?

by CookDing on Dec 21, 2006 1:38 PM CST up reply actions  

JoeJoe/JoJo
You need to stop forgetting your password and creating new usernames. Or is remembering such only the capabilities of a 'basketball mind god'. ;-)

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2006 9:26 AM CST up reply actions  

Man I got so many
things going on I can't remember my Blogabull password. Muh bad.

by JoJoEnglish94bulls4ever on Dec 21, 2006 2:19 PM CST up reply actions  

Why Can't we keep everyone?
Like Thank You Isiah, this team is headed towards the conference finals this year, and probably the NBA finals.  Why doesn't everyone want to keep the players we have and let them continue to get better, especially Deng and Nocioni.

If we have Ben and Kirk locked up at around 22 million combined the next 3 years after this one, what's the harm in giving Gordon, Noce, and Deng all 8-9 million and Duhon 6?  That's around 55-60 million dollars, plus the entry level contracts of Thabo and Thomas.  That's an 8 player rotation, plus our draft picks this year that will be entry level deals long enough until Wallace's contract expires.  What's wrong with this plan?  On top of that, we'll be losing PJ's contract too at the end of this year, so adding a couple 9 million dollar deals isn't as unfeasible as it sounds, considering we're like 26th in the league in salary right now, with PJ's included.  

Leaving these guys together for the next 3 years is going to provide more winning than mortgaging the future on KG for a 2 year window before his knees fall apart.  And who's to say he would elevate us to the championship anyway?  I say stick with these 8 guys, plus the rookies next year, for the next 4-5 years, and see how many rings we get.

by PGHcager on Dec 21, 2006 7:13 AM CST reply actions  

I have doubts
That we would be able to sign Deng for 8-9 million, considering what other teams would pay to lure him away from us.  The problem is that in this big bucks market of ours, there usually is a team that's willing to break the bank, especially for someone like Deng, who has a bright future.

Are all of our core members going to sign the contract extensions when they know there is a good chance of letting the free agent market drive up the price?  Kirk was signed at a relative bargain, but not all of our negotiations are going to go as cheaply as his.

I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Gordon also could command a higher price in free agency, as he could go ballistic on offense on the right team.

by Bullschicago on Dec 21, 2006 11:18 AM CST up reply actions  

But what if
the right deal comes along for Hinrich?  Meaning we get a quality guard in return that saves the team salary cap space in the future?  We may still be 1 or 2 players away from truly contending for a championship.  Hard work alone does not win rings.  You have to have the talent too.  Deng may be our go to guy when its said and done.  
So what if the Hornets offer C. Paul for Hinrich, would you bite on that deal?  We get younger, faster, better passing and decision making.  We do lose a little on the defensive end, but Paul is no puss on the defensive end.  This sort of move will help our transition game that will be created from good defense.

by DannyRange on Dec 21, 2006 9:01 AM CST reply actions  

I missed that discussion.
I was pretending I had better things to do than post here over the summer (I don't).

That said, anyone who wouldn't trade Hinrich for Paul considering age and salary is insane.  This is not a criticism of Hinrich either.  Even on straight up production for one season, I'd take Paul.  I don't think Hinrich's defense is THAT good.

by Eddy Currys Broken Heart on Dec 21, 2006 10:02 AM CST up reply actions  

as much as it hurts
I would have to agree....paul over hinrich

by milesgmsu on Dec 21, 2006 10:08 AM CST up reply actions  

The Hornets wouldn't trade Paul
That's my 'JoeJo' impression, but I don't see any possible scenario where Paul would be on the trading block.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Dec 21, 2006 10:35 AM CST up reply actions  

I'm a
Kirk Hinrich fan first and then a Bulls fan. If they did trade Kirk for Chris I wouldn't be posting here much.
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 21, 2006 11:31 AM CST reply actions  

blasphemy!
Well, at least you're self-aware of that allegiance. I was perfectly willing to throw even Jordan under the bus for his anti-Bulls transgressions.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2006 12:03 PM CST up reply actions  

players and coaches alone . . . . "
"players and coaches alone don't win championships; organizations win championships."

http://www.flakmag.com/sports/cook050207.html

I'm sick of my name, damn gwkd.

by GWKD on Dec 21, 2006 12:30 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm glad
That the Kirk Hinrich on the Bulls isn't the same guy that played for Kansas.  I hated that Kirk Hinrich guy on Kansas.  

by Moses Taylor on Dec 22, 2006 11:14 AM CST up reply actions  

Me, too, Sue.
I'd probably still follow the Bulls for a while, since I've grown attached to the other guys after all this time, but top allegiance would follow Kirk.

by wjb1492 on Dec 22, 2006 11:33 AM CST up reply actions  

I'll still
follow the Bulls because I'm pretty fond of the others too but Kirk gets top billing.
Thabo....the accent is sweet!!

by sue369 on Dec 22, 2006 12:22 PM CST up reply actions  

I'm still holding out hope
That we can trade the ghost of Bryce Drew for Basketball Jones.  

by CookDing on Dec 21, 2006 2:03 PM CST reply actions  

Aren't Hinrich's overall numbers influenced
by him splitting time between a position where he's solidly above average (PG) and one where he's slightly above average, if at all (SG)?

I think a case could be made that his production within the context of the Chicago Bulls doesn't completely describe his abilities.

by Hoopinion on Dec 21, 2006 3:40 PM CST reply actions  

I wondered about this
At times this year, Hinrich looked alot better off the ball.  He doesn't dribble as much.  I checked out his 82games page to see his numbers by position.    His PER is really strong as a PG (19.7).

http://www.82games.com/0607/06CHI3C.HTM

by Scotter on Dec 21, 2006 3:47 PM CST up reply actions  

also
Hinrich plays against the other teams starters, and defends the best opposing guard.

+/- and Roland Ratings aren't perfect...they're just a tool to use in evaluations.

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Dec 21, 2006 3:50 PM CST up reply actions  

Stats
Matt, Hoopinion, perhaps you could help me out on this:

I looked at Hinrich, Duhon, and Gordon's stats at the point guard position, which is what you're looking at above. I chose minutes for statistical reasons, PER is almost essential (and I don't need to list points, rebounds, assists, etc.), and the team offense, defense, and win% to show how well the team plays with a specific point guard.

Obviously Gordon hasn't played enough point guard for those stats to mean anything. Hinrich and Duhon have surprisingly comparable numbers, and Duhon has a better PPR (which I didn't list) as well. The glaring exception here is PER, and Hinrich's 19.7 has him producing at a near-elite level.

The biggest problem I have with Duhon's numbers, especially team points allowed, is that he is often  playing alongside an out of position Hinrich. Kirk is still out there guarding the better perimeter players and making up for Duhon's offensive weaknesses. I wish I could come up with more really solid conclusions from this, but Skiles' insistence on limiting Jizzle's minutes and playing Hinrich out of position skew the stats.

I think it's pretty obvious as an observer and fan that Kirk is the best point guard on the team, and a Hinrich/Gordon backcourt gives the Bulls the most balance despite size problems. Hopefully Sefolosha replaces Duhon's minutes, and Kirk can play his natural position with more frequency. A good point guard is almost as hard to find as a good big anyway.

by Paxson Jackson @ Blog a Bull on Dec 21, 2006 5:37 PM CST reply actions  

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