Derrick Rose injury: Rose will try and play in New Orleans tonight
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2012 11:58 AM CST
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PrintFrom the man himself, before shootaround today (which he won't fully participate in):
[My] back is feeling better. I should be ready to go tonight; game-time decision. I'm going to see how it is when I go out there and I should be all right....It feels a lot better, where I'm able to move. [Monday] night it seemed like it locked up on me. But I'm fine now. Hopefully, I'll be playing tonight.
There's much more there on how Rose does not factor the strength of his teammates or the weakness of his opponent into his decision. It's an interesting look at how Rose is an extension of Thibs, and also why he should just sit out: neither knows anything but full-tilt.
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Nailed it...
It’s an interesting look at how Rose is an extension of Thibs, and also why he should just sit out: neither knows anything but full-tilt.
That’s exactly right, and it’s frankly shocking that apparently no one in management (paging John Paxson) recognizes the dangers of that every day is Super Bowl day style.
Furthermore, how can management be so blind to the warning shots over the past could of seasons?
– Noah’s plantar fascitiis
– Noah’s hand
– Rip’s groin
In each one of the above cases, it is obvious that the players were pressed back into service too quickly, and suffered further damage as a result.
It was obvious that Rose wasn’t comfortable just watching him play the early minutes in NJ. Why was he out there at all for a game that the Bulls were virtually assured of winning without him? And now they want to rush him back into action? For what purpose?
Stupendously dumb.
Ok, I get the Noah plantar fasciitis situation
but I don’t think this is exactly right:
In each one of the above cases, it is obvious that the players were pressed back into service too quickly, and suffered further damage as a result.
Is there any evidence that Noah was forced back into the rotation too soon and suffered further damage to his hand? Not that I’m aware of. Was Rip forced back too soon? By all accounts, he voluntarily came back for the Pistons game and re-aggravated the injury as a result. And, if I remember correctly, Boozer was never ‘forced back’ from his injuries either.
answers...
I believe that are mountains of circumstantial evidence that Noah was allowed/encouraged to return and play with the hand injury before it was decided to perform surgery. Minimally – even if you want to argue that no more damage was done – it cost time before Noah returned.
Now, as far as being forced back too soon, that was the wrong word to have used, as it is typically a combination of the players’ willingness and the staff/management encouragement. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that any of the players played without wanting to.
The main point is that in other NBA organizations (the Celtics to name just one), management takes a very active role in these kind of decisions, and the players’ desire to play is never allowed to override the (more conservative) management approach to injuries.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
Are you just making stuff up?
it is obvious that the players were pressed back into service too quickly,
The reports I recall (and the one referenced above) indicate the player themselves are the ones who wanted to come back and play. I have not read anything about management pressing players to come back too soon.
New signature coming...but its a process.
see my reply above...
I implied the wrong thing with that phrasing. However, management should never allow the players’ eagerness to get back onto the court to influence thoughtful, long-term decisions. It is obvious that the players are prone to making stupid decisions, so management should, in my view, step in and restrain them from playing – especially during this truncated season and in games in which they aren’t needed.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 12:49 PM CST up reply actions
on the other hand
you are talking about a team that looks very sharp offensively this season, more than last season, and you are asking that management step in and bench key players. When exactly are these guys going to get there offensive rhythm when they aren’t practicing and sitting on the bench?
Do you just expect it to be there during the playoffs?
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
In my view...
finding an offensive rhythm in the early or mid points of the season at the expense of soundness is a very poor trade-off.
In any case, I’m not suggesting that management “bench” players, I’m suggesting that they should give them ample time to recover sufficiently from injuries so that there is a better chance that they will be healthy come playoff time.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 1:54 PM CST up reply actions
soundness is relative
the Bulls aren’t a finely tuned machine full of veterans, like the spurs or the celtics, former championship teams that know how to turn “it” on and off. The Bulls are a young team, and Thibs is not going to Dusty Baker them into oblivion. They aren’t practicing and they need to put in the time to keep gelling. Some injuries, you just have to see if you can play through the pain, its the nature of playing pro-ball. If Rose was 33 and Deng was 36, I would be complaining about the high minutes like everyone else, but these guys are young and really aren’t being pushed any harder than they were last year, especially if you remember the stories of how grueling Thibs practices were.
And
It is obvious that the players are prone to making stupid decisions
is an absurd, unsubstantiated, and fairly slanderous claim.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
right...
it was clearly a smart move for Rip to lobby to play in that early game in Detroit, and then again against the Heat. It was clearly smart for Rose to push to play in the Nets game when he was obviously in pain from the start. Etc.
If you don’t understand that many (if not most) elite athletes (in football as well) are inclined to want to play through injuries, and not think much about the future ramifications, then I’m afraid you aren’t paying attention.
Smart management (in basketball, think Red Aurbach) basically ignores whether or not the players would like to play, and base decisions on whether or not it is in the team’s interest. That is not what we have been witnessing with the Bulls.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 2:37 PM CST up reply actions
why are you speaking in hyperbole
Some injuries, you just have to see if you can play through the pain, its the nature of playing pro-ball.
doesn’t not equal:
it was clearly a smart move for Rip to lobby to play in that early game in Detroit, and then again against the Heat. It was clearly smart for Rose to push to play in the Nets game when he was obviously in pain from the start. Etc.
I never said it was smart, nor did I imply it. What I did imply was you have to see if you can play with the injury before you shut it down. Is it smart for Kobe to play through his wrist injury? Is it stupid for the coaching staff to allow it? Or does Kobe play until he can’t play at the level he needs to play at? Rip played because he thought he could play, and if the coaching staff had seen him hobble off the training table after evaluating him, he wouldn’t have played. Jordan famously returned to play in the regular season in the 86/87 season even though he had just recovered from a broken foot and proceed to light up the Celtics after playing 18 games. Would you say that was a stupid decision?
And what about Red Auerbach, are you now implying that Auerbach didn’t allow his players to play through pain?
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
MJ sat the majority of that season.
A broken bone usually takes 4-12 weeks to heal. You’re probably thinking of the 85/86 season, BTW. MJ sat from 10/29 until 3/15. That’s the long end of that spectrum. He sat for the requisite amount of time the injury required him to sit.
As far as Kobe’s injury, every report that I’ve heard is that he can’t make it worse by playing. Everything about that injury is pain management. There is virtually no risk of aggravating the injury by playing. It’s the same injury that Lu has. Lu apparently needed to sit for a couple weeks to manage the pain correctly. Kobe didn’t.
Muscles are a different beast. Most of the injuries on the Bulls this season appear to be muscle injuries. Those can ONLY be healed by rest. And they get worse if you use them while they’re still injured.
In any case, the decision to play should NOT be up to the players or the coaches, cuz they’re going to WANT to play every single time. The decision should be up to the team doctors, with a local doctor potentially on call and not bought out by either the team or the player.
but we don't have a shoddy medical staff
I am in the camp, where if the medical staff clears the player to play, you play him and see what he can give you.
His strain wasn’t misdiagnosed, and I don’t think its up to Thibs to give Rip a “thibs physical” to see if he coming back too soon. If a player hops off the training table and the doctors tell you he is “day to day,” you are going to want to see what kind of shape that player is in by pressing him into service. And I think Thibs handled the situation in a logical way, I don’t think there was anything improper about it.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
what I am implying...
is that smart, far-sighted management doesn’t allow players to play because they want to when the potential risks outweigh the potential rewards. Aurbach fell squarely into that category.
The Bulls have a coach who by all appearances wants his players to play unless the medical staff says “no”. He has also shown a clear tendency to play injured players when there is no need for them to be out on the floor.
That is a recipe for problems, and the Bulls have displayed symptoms of this dynamic throughout the last couple of seasons.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions
Smart far sided management puts depth behind its core players
to get through injuries. The Auebach celtics has 9 players from the 1962 roster in the hall of fame. 9 players! You think they won as much as they did because of proper injury management, or because the team was as deep.
The Bulls have a coach who by all appearances wants his players to play unless the medical staff says "no".
thats how it would work.
He has also shown a clear tendency to play injured players when there is no need for them to be out on the floor.
I don’t agree or disagree with this however I don’t think he is some knobhead that just puts players on the court for the sake of having them on there court.
That is a recipe for problems, and the Bulls have displayed symptoms of this dynamic throughout the last couple of seasons.
I don’t know, here we thought Deng was the most injury prone player we had, and we rode him all season last season, and he was still beasting in the playoffs. Before last season, he sat out quite a bit, and still suffered through injuries. Do we have a tough-nosed management staff? I think we do, but I also don’t think they want to ride there players into early retirement. And Paxson did infamously rough up VDN for playing Noah too much. I just don’t think the evidence is there to call all of this “stupid.”
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
first of all...
I’m not referring to Aurbach’s coaching career. I’m referring to him as President of the Celtics for many years. I also happen to know a former NBA team owner who knew Aurbach, and the latter emphasized the point that I have repeatedly made (i.e. whether or not to play when injured should not be the player’s decision).
I respect Thibs, and don’t consider him to be a “knobhead”, either. However, he has not offered, nor do I believe that there is a legitimate excuse for keeping important players – especially when they are fighting injuries that could well be exacerbated – on the floor in games that have been won, or are almost certain to be won without them.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
Why does everyone want to compare today's players with legendary players from the past?
Who cares if MJ was able to return or what Red Auerbach did? We’re talking about this current group of players an their injuries. It was stupid and selfishof Hamilton to play against the Pistons and he said himself that he was coming back so that he could go against his old team. Know why it was stupid? Because he went on to miss games after that.
It is silly for players like Rose and Deng to be on the court in meaningless minutes of games with acknowledged injuries in an historically tenuous season. Seeing that he was seen being stretched out, you can make an hypothesis that Rose made his back pains worse by being on the floor late in the Bucks game and watching Deng play damn near normal minutes in blowouts with a wrist that can require surgery with the slightest bump is ridiculous.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
i through the MJ comparison out there for the sake of the Auerbach reference
playing 15 minutes and getting smacked on the hand versus playing 40 minutes and getting smacked on the hand doesn’t make a difference.
It was not stupid and selfish, the man thought he could play through the pain, its not like he was sitting on the bench and took off a leg cast to run out onto the court.
Do you think Kobe is stupid and selfish right now?
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
Kobe is always..
stupid and selfish. Check out his divorce papers.
by El Toro de Goro on Feb 8, 2012 4:46 PM CST up reply actions
I think you hit on a key point
They are not practicing. Nobody in the league is. I hear that Thibs used to run the hell out of these guys last year. So they were essentially doing the same amount of basketball work. It’s the rest of the league that is a year behind their pace.
Imagine if your job, overnight, doubled your workload for one year. You would probably be tired and in a bad mood. Now if you had a year to get used to it, it would still suck but you would develop routines around it and just have a better sense of what you are doing . As long as that shit doesn’t go on too long they should be fine. they have long off-seasons to rest. And our guys have a year of non-stop crazy basketball. I think that’s why this is one of the few teams in the league that is consistent to their last years play.
that's all well and good...
but if key players aren’t sound come playoff time, it will be all for naught.
by Paul Warfield on Feb 8, 2012 3:27 PM CST up reply actions
I don’t know, are Deng and Noah and Boozer just injury prone or are they being worked too hard? Deng has been missing big time from small injuries forever now. So I tend to think he is prone to missing games due to injury. Noah is a 7 footer with foot problems. He could be under too heavy a work load. Impossible to tell. Booz came in with a history of injuries, Rip too, so it can’t be our fault they are dinged up. No other player has come in here without an injury history and gotten hurt that I can recall. Roses ankle last year, but we need to honest with ourselves about his shelf life anyway.
It doesn’t seem like we are making guys injury prone. The workload doesn’t seem to effect them, as far as injuries go anyway. Some guys are going to get hurt regardless of how many minutes they get. Might as well get all you can out of them.
I love Rose and all, but shouldn't he have learned from his toe experience trying to come back
too early? Maybe management should play more of a role in these decisions? Tell Derrick to sit a few games regardless of he he feels, or how he thinks he feels. Tell him it’s precautionary and it’ll benefit the team more in the long run.
On the J.R. Smith bandwagon until otherwise advised.
The way that's phrased...
makes it sound like Chinese Thibs is the one coaching this upcoming game.
by m0chab34r on Feb 8, 2012 1:56 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
sin?
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08
by Fukudometer on Feb 8, 2012 2:39 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
both he and Thibs
go the ‘every NBA team is an NBA team’ answer. And I’m starting to think it’s not just lip service for league integrity.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 8, 2012 1:58 PM CST up reply actions
I would guess Rose hate the talk of how when Wade fades, Eric Gordon will be the best guard in basketball. I really think shit like that bothers him. Look at what he does against the likes of Derron, CP3 and Ronda.
I think Derrick Rose is, quietly, more obsessed with being the greatest basketball player in the world than any other player today. He is 100% driven. Always wanting to show up other big name guys. Always needing to come back from injury asap. The guy is clearly wired different than most people and that’s a big part of what makes him great, and better than his peers.
I really don't see the point in Rose going all out to crush teams we know the Bulls can beat by 40.
Then make the “Oh he’s hurt, Bulls are short-handed” excuse when they get crushed by Philly or screw up in close games against the Pacers and Heat.
Exactly, this is what concerns me the most.
He took his what to where?!
Spin
from the front office concerns you the most? Not Boozers declining role in the post? Not a healthy 2 guard to pair with Rose? Not all the injury prone players we have laying about? Your biggest concern is how the front office spins losses in the press?
More importantly, hasn't ROse himself come out and said that his back injury was the result of compensating for leg pain?
Isn’t that proof right there that they’re playing with fire by putting him in these games?
It’s not like I want him out for a month, but they have a nice little opportunity to rest him ‘til Sunday (assuming he’ll be good to go then). There’s not many other times where that will be available (at least in obv winnable games)
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 8, 2012 3:01 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
wow. noticed your quite the kanye fan
After being crowned the best in the league, he’s ready to be the best at his position
-Adande
by BigforkBullsFan on Feb 8, 2012 3:00 PM CST up reply actions
I’m going to see how it is when I go out there and I should be all right….It feels a lot better, where I’m able to move.
“Yeah, Gar? Great news. He can move! He’s playin’!”
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 8, 2012 2:37 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
No, I'm done.
Just thought that Rose quote was kinda funny considering the circumstance. Plus Thibs really is kinda nuts imo
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 8, 2012 2:58 PM CST up reply actions
this is just dying for a word bubble 'shop
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08
NO. WAY. My very own office cot?!
Gar, you’re too good to me. No no, it fits the motiff well. In fact, it’ll jibe fabulously with the comforter I sewed out of those old Khryapa jerseys! (And Pax wanted to give them to Goodwill. Imagine!)
Wow.
Derrick was actually able to finish a though with saying “if anything….!”
I think I'm gonna try that on bill collectors to throw them off
“If anything, I should be able to pay it today. Where, I’m getting some money some time tomorrow…”
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 8, 2012 3:22 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Lol, Rose really needs to expand his vocabulary.
He’s done with “it’s crazy….man, it’s crazy,” but his speech really needs some work. Or maybe he just doesn’t give two shits about the media and just throws out some easy rhetoric.
The only time I can remember rose being eloquent on camera
was when he did the tour of the burto. I wonder if that video is still around.
Looks like he had some of Rose's Toradol Skittles
it don't mean a theng if you ain't got that deng
by Osaka on Feb 8, 2012 3:19 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
New theory: Thibs bets on the Bulls to beat the spread
it don't mean a theng if you ain't got that deng
by Osaka on Feb 8, 2012 3:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
The starters are not playing crazy minutes
In fact, compared to most of the best players in the game, he’s playing the least minutes per game. Jackson rode Pip and Jordan harder than Thibs is riding Rose, and Rose is younger. (see link)
http://espn.go.com/chicago/nba/story/_/id/7554015/chicago-bulls-need-luck-play-june
The only problem I have is when they’re up by 15-20 and Thibs is still going crazy on the sidelines and keeping the starters in. If the lead starts dropping, put them back in. Otherwise, I’d like to see him just chill once in a while. I’m worried about a serious mental burnout because of his style. Dude needs to chill sometimes, plain and simple.
I'm getting too old for this shit...
But Deng and Rose are pretty banged up
Not saying that Jordan and Pippen were always healthy, but playing games every other day and watching other marquee players get hurt should make you a little more conservative on the playing time.
"You play to win the playoffs, and we let 'em off the hook!" -Herm Mora Green
pippen played with chronic back problems and jordan played through back spasms
however, i think rose should def get some rest. Hes not fuckin wolverine.
I didn't think it was OK to publicly speak of one's love of comics...
unless you are a hipster.
Otherwise we are supposed to keep it quiet and just scream at our monitors “PLEASE MARVEL/LIONSGATE GIVE ME MORE HULK MOVIES!!”. Mmmmm WWH in fancy big-budget animation….
love marvel but im so dissapointed in their films
imo there animated movies are way better
but im still coppin a ticket to this
Yes, that's mostly what everyone thinks.
But the Bulls can win the next two games easily without Derrick, so he should sit.
it don't mean a theng if you ain't got that deng
by Osaka on Feb 8, 2012 3:20 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
agreed
he should definitely sit these next two games.
I'm getting too old for this shit...
The only problem I have is when they’re up by 15-20 and Thibs is still going crazy on the sidelines and keeping the starters in.
This is the crux of the problem. One of the benefits of having a team that kicks ass is that you can rest some of your players a bit more. Yet for some reason Thibs feels the need to play them at ridiculous points of the game
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 8, 2012 3:25 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Yeah the one advantage we have is blowing out bad teams
while Miami consistently has to go all out because they’re to cocky to give a damn against the same bad teams and we don’t even use that advantage. For some reason Thibs finds some value in leaving starters in.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
I'd really just like to see Thibs sit down and crack a smile once and a while.
So much intensity all the time can get old. He needs to add some variety to his style :)
I'm getting too old for this shit...
on a related note...
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
by SidM on Feb 8, 2012 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
yes, we need more smiley Thibs
I'm getting too old for this shit...
Miami's plan
Fancy alley-oops and FB points, teams give up because of their almighty might…Part of me STILL feels they think we would give up after they did that to us…
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
Thibs and the bulls are perfectionists chasing that perfect 48 minute game. So what theyre up by 30, just even more reason to bring it.
Anybody else notice how it seemed like we played a lot more close games against weak teams last years as opposed to us just blowing them out early and often this year?
Im almost dying to see us play some credible competition while truely healthy, just to see what this bulls squad is capable of.
Bulls, Bears and White Sox, what!!!
by Rose2RipKaboom! on Feb 8, 2012 4:16 PM CST via Android app reply actions
Isiah agrees so Thibs must be wrong
I love (Thibodeau)," Thomas said. “Chicago doesn’t realize how lucky they are to have Thibodeau and Rose come together at this point in time in their careers, because you’ve got two people basically saying, ‘Screw everybody else, we’re trying to win a championship now.’”
Thomas said any talk of resting Rose in an effort to protect him from injury is foolish.
“I have a West Side mentality, and that is you’re either fighting to get it or fighting to keep it,” he said. “But make no mistake about it, you are always in the fight. . . . You want to sit me down and coddle me?”
by Option27 on Feb 8, 2012 4:28 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Rose is like a fucken ancient warrior, he don't give a fuck, he's playing
If he fails us, he will commit seppuku
Did Leonidas sit out with turf toe or back spasms?, Hell No! He had to defend the pass…….
by Trey23 on Feb 8, 2012 4:41 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
no way, the first one is good haha
matches leonidas’s expression pretty well.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
Things didn't end so well for Leonidas.
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Feb 8, 2012 4:45 PM CST up reply actions
this is where rose's stoicism screws us over
hard to find pictures of him to photoshop on to things
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Feb 8, 2012 6:14 PM CST up reply actions
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