Making a Play for Pau
by from the window to luol on Feb 6, 2012 1:48 AM CST
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Before the season started, I advocated trading for Andre Iguodala. He was reportedly being shopped at the time, but I doubt that’s true anymore. The Sixers are playing too well to trade their best and most marketable player. So, now that Iggy’s presumably off the table, what can the Bulls do to improve the roster?
The most common response is to trade for Dwight Howard. This intuitively makes a lot of sense. What could be better than pairing an elite young point guard with an elite center in his mid-20s? However, there are two major stumbling blocks: (1) Dwight Howard doesn’t seem to want to play for the Bulls, and (2) the Bulls probably would need to give up two All-Star caliber players in their mid-20s to get him. The first issue is especially important because Howard will be a free agent at the end of the year. If the Bulls traded for him, didn’t win this year, and then lost him in the offseason, it would be a disaster. Also, given the compressed nature of the schedule, the Bulls would more likely take a step back than a step forward this season. There wouldn’t be much practice time to familiarize Howard and Turkoglu with the schemes and the other players’ tendencies. In addition, even if Howard is the best defensive player in the league, there could be an adjustment period in which the team suffers from the loss of the two best defensive starters on the team. The Bulls would be gambling that any adjustment period is short and that the resulting team is better than the previous one.
There’s another trade possibility that isn’t exactly novel but hasn’t generated much discussion in a long time: Pau Gasol. Four years ago, the Bulls attempted to acquire Pau from the Memphis Grizzlies. The Grizzlies ultimately accepted an offer from the Lakers that appeared worse than whatever the Bulls were reported to have put on the table, but in the end the Grizzlies fared pretty well as a result of their decision. The Lakers also fared well, winning a couple championships with Pau and Kobe leading the way. Now, the Lakers face a bit of a dilemma. They’re structured like the Heat, except that both their Big 3 and their supporting cast are notably worse than Miami’s. In fact, their supporting cast is objectively horrible. The fifth-best PER on the team is 10.6, which is easily exceeded by all 14 players who have suited up for the Bulls this year. Although I don’t believe that Scalabrine, Lucas, or Mike James would merit a substantial role on the Lakers, everyone else probably would.
The Lakers seem to recognize that the current roster is not ideal. They already thought that they had traded Pau prior to the season in the Chris Paul debacle, and they’re frequently rumored to be active in the Dwight Howard sweepstakes. After the Chris Paul deal was vetoed by the league, Lamar Odom was so upset by his inclusion that the Lakers traded him at a seemingly discount rate. Pau similarly appears unhappy with his position in the organization. He has already voiced his displeasure with Mike Brown’s Kobe-isolation offense which keeps him on the perimeter, and his numbers are down across the board. He has also been targeted as a scapegoat for the team’s failures in last year’s playoffs and for their early struggles this year. The Lakers have a difficult 10-game stretch before the All-Star game, including games in Oklahoma City, Dallas, Philly, Boston, and New York in addition to hosting the Blazers and Hawks. If they don’t win a majority of those games, the pressure to make some major changes should increase. Kobe isn’t going anywhere, and Bynum would only be moved for Howard. None of the role players have significantly positive trade value. Unless the Lakers can acquire a difference-maker with Odom’s trade exception, dealing Pau is their best option to address the team’s deficiencies.
After that lengthy introduction, I’ll get to the point:
Presuming that Joel Przybilla would sign with the Bulls if playing time were available, I think that the Bulls should offer Boozer, Asik, Brewer, and their first-round pick to the Lakers for Pau and Derrick Caracter.
The biggest reason for this deal is that Pau would be a great fit on the Bulls. Although his numbers are superficially quite similar to Boozer’s, he would be a substantial upgrade both offensively and defensively. On offense, his primary advantages are shot creation and passing. According to Hoopdata, 72.0% of Boozer’s field goals are assisted, compared to 59.7% for Pau. These numbers are in line with their recent careers, as Pau has consistently been at 55%-60% and Boozer around 70%. This may not seem like a big difference, but consider that the functional range of values for big men is only from roughly 50% (e.g. Zach Randolph creating in the post / facing up) to 80% (e.g. Antawn Jamison working mostly in catch-and-shoot situations). Pau and Boozer are on opposite ends of the spectrum. With respect to passing, both Boozer and Pau have low turnover rates around 10% of their possessions used. However, Pau’s assist rate (18.1% of possessions used) is nearly double that of Boozer (9.83%). Boozer’s passing is typically somewhat better than it has been this year, but it’s still not nearly as strong as Gasol’s. Pau would improve the team’s ball movement to help generate more easy shots.
On defense, we all know that Boozer is subpar and limited. In contrast, Pau is a fine defender who can play not only power forward but also center. His versatility has been tremendously important in recent years with Bynum often nursing injuries. He’s a +1.4 defensively by regularized adjusted +/-, compared to -1.8 for Boozer. With Pau on the team, the Bulls would have more options to improve the lineup offensively without sacrificing their defensive dominance, such as by playing Korver with the starters or by using Pau at center for stretches with the second unit.
Although the team’s depth and defense would take a hit with the losses of Brewer and Asik, I think that overall the benefits would outweigh the costs, especially in the playoffs when rotations are shorter. We have seen flashes from Butler that suggest that he can handle a larger role and duplicate much of what Brewer has provided. The loss of Asik would be softened by Pau’s ability to play center and the presumed addition of Przybilla. It seems that Przybilla wants to join a contender, have an established role with the team, and stay close to home. He is rumored to be considering only the Bulls and the Heat. Right now the Bulls have no role for him, while the Heat could offer more of an opportunity but no guarantees. In a twist of fortune, the Bulls have the location advantage, given that Przybilla and his family live near Milwaukee. If the Bulls trade Asik, the backup center role will be there for him. Also, while it’s tough to give up Asik and his potential, there’s a good chance that the Bulls wouldn’t match the highest offer for him this offseason despite the lower cap on his salary. Przybilla is nearly identical in his offensive limitations and defensive prowess in the short term.
For the Lakers, it is difficult to justify a trade in which you give up the best player, but they would be adding much-needed depth, youth, and athleticism. Brewer would lend some stability on the wing beside or behind Kobe, and Asik would be an extreme upgrade over their current backup center options. Bynum can compensate for some of Boozer’s defensive issues, and Boozer seems to prefer playing outside the lane at this point in his career, as Pau has been asked to do in that lineup. In addition, the Lakers would gain assets that should be more attractive to the Magic if they’d like to facilitate a trade for Howard. Since Ryan Anderson has emerged as the second-best player in Orlando, Gasol doesn’t have much value there. The Lakers potentially could add Asik, Brewer, and/or the Bulls’ pick to their offer of Bynum and picks for Dwight to get a deal done.
In case you hadn’t guessed, Caracter is involved in the deal because it would be fitting if the Bulls added a guy whose name is pronounced "character." He’s injured and likely wouldn’t contribute anything on the court.
Here would be the Bulls’ new rotation:
Rose / CJ / Lucas
Rip / Korver / CJ
Deng / Butler / Korver
Pau / Taj / Deng
Noah / Przybilla / Pau
Thoughts?
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I'm game
Not sure if the Lakers bite though
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Feb 6, 2012 2:00 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
Try as I might, I cannot poke holes in your logic.
"How dare you mock this buxom wench!"
- William Regal defending Vickie Guerrero.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Feb 6, 2012 2:08 AM CST reply actions
Great post
As a Bulls fan, I would do this deal in a heartbeat, but I just don’t see any way the Lakers would. I know Pau’s role has been reduced due to the Brownification of their offense, but Mitch Kupchak is a very savvy dude, and I’m sure he realizes that Pau is more valuable than his current output suggests.
You’re obviously including Asik as the sweetener, but I’m not sure that he has that much value around the league at this point. He’s shown flashes, but I don’t know if it’s been enough for him to be a key piece in this type of transaction.
I was actually thinking about ways we could nab Pau too, recently. I agree that he’d be an incredible fit. Although I was thinking more along the lines of getting in on a three way deal with the Magic and Lakers. Perhaps if the Magic wanted more parts (younger, and draft picks) with Bynum for Howard, we could’ve given the Lakers Charlotte’s pick, Mirotic, and Boozer, and they could’ve sent Mirotic and the pick to Orlando, and given us Pau. Of course, now that a Lakers-Magic trade seems dead, I guess that’s off limits, though
That being said, I think you’re on to something, in that, this is the exact type of deal we need to be looking at to take us to that next level. Rec’d.
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 6, 2012 2:14 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
I agree about the Lakers not going for it. It is becoming very clear to the Lakers that Pau is the second option on offense...
and the best post player on the team. There was some talk from Bynum about getting more touches and maybe being the second option, but he is not very good with double teams and is not always quick enough to get his nice turnaround off or re-post fast enough. Boozer does not have much post game anymore it appears and Asik is more of a defensive guy which is great but the offense for the Lakers which is having a tough time at times will suffer without the Pau option.
Your proposed alternate deal makes more sense for the reasons you brought up with every team getting good fits for their respective teams.
(Martin Landau) Bela Lugosi: How dare that a****** bring up Karloff? You think it takes talent to do Frankenstein? It's all makeup and grunting.
--From the movie Ed Wood
GET TO THE RIM HEAT (and SKY)! ATTACK THE PAINT!
Another thing that's prohibitive for the Lakers in this scenario is
that Booze is under contract for three more years after this one, and I don’t think the Lakers would wanna invest that much of their future in him. If he only had a year or two left on his contract, I think the odds of something like this happening would increase exponentially. As it stands, I think many teams will be hesitant to add long term deals to their books due to the new luxury tax penalties that kick in in a couple years
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
yeah, boozer is probably more in the albatross than change of scenery category.
people around the league aren’t thinking “Booze would be so much better in a winning environment!”
"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."
I'd make this trade and not think twice about it
Really doubt the Lakers do this, but who knows, it seems like Pau isn’t exactly happy there so maybe he and his agent can apply some pressure on the organization there. Bulls would probably be asked to eat some of Boozer’s contract. Would JR do that?
I'm getting too old for this shit...
I don't think that the Bulls can offer to eat part of Boozer's contract
You can do that in baseball; to the best of my knowledge, however, it is not an option in the NBA. If you trade a player, that player’s new team is on the hook for his contract; end of story.
we can take back bad contracts though
thats essentially the same thing if the players received would not be playing/contributing
by RoseTyrusMancrush on Feb 6, 2012 9:25 AM CST up reply actions
Only a small lump sum
You can include a one time payment of four million, I think, but that would only help for this year. The Lakers would still be stuck with the Boozer contract for three more years.
not possible in regular situations
although, it could be done via amnesty.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Feb 6, 2012 12:51 PM CST up reply actions
Good for us, not for Lakers
I would love this deal, especially if the Bulls could insert Pryzbilla into the hole left by Asik. Does anyone really think that this is the best the Lakers could do for Gasol, however? It doesn’t really address their main position(s) of need at all. Also, why would a team with a defensively oriented coach want to swap Gasol for Boozer?
Wow
This is so close to being the best trade I have ever seen proposed on BaB ever! This is not a crazy, let’s trade everyone but Rose for Kobe type of thing. Pau would be a great fit, and the Lakers need a change. I think to get this to work, you are going to need a 3rd team to get involved and take Boozer’s deal. This got me thinking, what team desperately needs post scoring and might be willing to take on Boozer? I thought, maybe the New Jersey Nets. They are making a play for Dwight anyway, so why not pick up his good buddy Carlos Boozer?
How about this:
Bulls receive: Pau; give up: Boozer, Asik, Brewer
Lakers receive: Okur, Brewer, Lopez, Charlotte Pick; give up: Pau
Nets receive: Boozer, Asik, rights to Mirotic ; give up: Okur, Lopez
The big issue here is that Lopez has not played this season and now the Bulls might be giving up too much, but this could work for all teams involved. Lakers get good young bigs to grow alongside Bynum and a nice draft pick. Nets get Howard’s best buddy Boozer and in the mean time get to pair Williams and Boozer again. I honestly think this works for all teams involved. The big question is whether or not Gasol is that big of an upgrade over Boozer. I’d say that he absolutely is. A starting frontcourt of Pau+Noah would give the Heat nightmares. Get it done GarPax, get it done!
by DRoseO1 on Feb 6, 2012 7:24 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
oops
Bulls also give up charlotte pick and Mirotic. Again, big price to pay, but if Butler can step up and play some solid minutes, Bulls will be fine.
Doesn't seem to make sense for either Nets or Lakers
Would the Nets have room to go re-sign DWill and also go after Howard if they were already on the hook for Boozer?
Plus, what would the Lakers do with both Bynum and Lopez?
The answer to the first question is 'yes'
The answer to the second question is — since Lopez seems to have no interest in rebounding, I suppose they would just let him shoot jumpers outside the paint (which is reportedly what Brown wants Pau to do, anyway).
I was assuming a trade for Howard, not a signing
They would now have Mirotic and Asik to include in a Howard trade, along with their own draft picks. Although, I am not sure if this would work in the new CBA, but they have Humphries expiring and Williams with a player option. If Williams opted out, they would have enough room to sign Howard and then use bird rights on Williams after siging Howard (not sure if that is legal under new CBA or old CBA for that matter). I thought they could swing a trade based around Asik, Mirotic, Humphries, Sheldon Williams, Marshon Brooks and a draft pick. This trade could be made after March 1. Magic would get a fantastic deal getting young bigs in Asik, Mirotic, young talent in Brooks (when he recovers from injuries) and 11 million in expiring contracts from Humphries and Williams. It doesn’t help them out with the problem of Hedo, but it would be a freakishly good haul. Nets would basically have Williams, Boozer, Howard and not much else, but they would get what they wanted and ring chasers could sign there.
The Lopez Bynum thing is tough. Lopez has shown some touch from 15 feet. They could probably manage together, but maybe I am reaching there.
I think this deal gives up too much for Pau.
However, I think including New Jersey in this is a great idea, since it gives them another attractive piece in Boozer to further entice Howard. Boozer and Howard are reportedly good friends, and Howard apparently likes his friends despite how good they are at basketball.
That being said, what I really like about the idea of trading for Gasol is that it is predicated on accepting the fact that Howard is not (and apparently does not want to) coming to the Bulls. I remember during the Melo fiasco folks here at BaB (myself included) went through all kinds of trade scenarios and mental ‘what if’ scenarios about why Melo should want to come to Chicago. The truth was, he simply wanted to play in New York, and there’s nothing wrong with that. The same story may be true with Howard.
Ya, it does give up alot
I guess it’s all whether you feel swapping Boozer for Pau (without giving up other starters)gets you a far better shot at a championship. While I would not go so far as to guarantee a championship with that roster, a front line of Pau/Noah seems pretty formidable. I think he would be the perfect fit and we could go out and get a championship this year. But again, if you don’t think it get’s us a much better shot, then it for sure is too much.
i would say that lineup would def win the championship
gasol would produce nightmare matchups for the heat frontcourt.
Why not have
Bulls give up Boozer + Watson + first round pick
Lakers give us Gasol.
This fits the Lakers needs more (Watson is a great backup PG that really is a luxury we don’t need), Boozer keeps their scoring in tact, and this is a deep draft, so they may find a pearl late in the draft (while the Bulls don’t need another late first, Lakers need some project young players).
Bulls have a hole in the backup PG spot, with Lucas III our backup, but perhaps we can do a Sessions for Brewer deal to fix that hole there. Or we can work something out with Arenas maybe taking the risk of the headcase for little…..which seems a logical risk, or we can do a DJ Augustin for Asik and John Lucas deal—because Asik’s expiring and we can’t really afford him esp with Pau in tow and Mirotic coming.
We’d need to hope Hamilton becomes healthy, but once he does:
Rose/Sessions or Rose/Augustin
Hamilton/Brewer/Korver
Deng/Korver
Gasol/Gibson
Noah/Gasol/Gibson and maybe Pryzbilla….
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 6, 2012 11:04 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Of course this deal is much more preferable to the one I listed
I just doubt the Lakers are that stupid. Maybe if you throw in either the Charlotte pick or Mirotic rights they bite on it, but I doubt it. I simply don’t think the Lakers will want Boozer (unless you can convince them it will help get Dwight). That’s why I threw in the Nets.
Very true
but Watson with a PER of 21 on a bargain contract sure does look tempting, particularly given their current choices of Blake (PER 10.4) and Fisher (PER 9.3).
Yes
Watson is the plugger and the picks. Watson is miles better than what they have (I actually really like Watson).
I am one of the few that likes Boozer too I suppose, he does his job and doesn’t complain, if he sits, he doesn’t complain, if he gets the ball he typically produces, it’s when he doesn’t get the ball that he becomes passive on both ends.
He can’t defend that well, but he is masked by good defenders around him, and he rebounds everything (probably keeping Noah from being a top 5 rebounder, but still I’d rather have both of them boarding than Noah grabbing everything he can and ultimtely the team rebounds being less).
Still I’d love Boozer for $5M/yr less….
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I guess part of it is how the Lakers like Boozer
Around here, he seems to have negative value. The Lakers could see this as an upgrade at PG and a defensive downgrade at PF. Who knows. I would certainly be willing to throw in more to get Gasol. Agree with sentiments below, we need to be in win now mode.
by DRoseO1 on Feb 6, 2012 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wanted to rec your post, not sure if it was flagged?
I am fine adding this year’s pick, Charlotte Option and we can talk with Asik….
We won’t likely keep Asik post this year, Gasol flips into the C spot in times to steal his minutes anyway, and Gibson’s on board for 2 years (1 more past this, so it makes sense we keep him)
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Ya, Gibson is the better one to keep since we have him for two years
If we get a championship this year, we can go into luxury tax to keep some of these guys.
We could throw in the Charlotte option in lieu or with our first round pick
For GASOL.
We’re in win now mode, and plus if Charlotte (Which has surprisingly completely underperformed, I would have thought them to be just bad enough to not be in the playoffs, but just good enough to not be a top 5 pick team, is likely to get a top 1-3 pick the way they’re going, and this is supposed to be a deep draft, so barring another Kwame Brown MJ disaster, they could start to perform well and that pick will never have a higher value than now).
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
i think im in love this trade idea because it can open up the chance to get...
JR SMITH!!! BOO-YEAH!
Try suggesting this on Silver Screen and Roll.
My guess is that no one will bite. They may underestimate Pau, but they know he is the best player in that trade.
It's amazing that a trade that rips off the Lakers is so universally accepted!
I mean…Asik I guess is a nice prospect for them, but he’s a permanent backup behind either Bynum or perhaps Dwight Howard. The Bulls pick is gonna be the last few in the first round, the Lakers punt those things all the time (to their detriment it turns out)
Boozer has negative trade value, the Bulls would have to include an asset to get a team to take him. Not get a far better player on a shorter contract.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 6, 2012 10:09 AM CST reply actions 4 recs
This is probably why DRoseO1's trade (above) makes more sense
even though it involves the Bulls giving up a bit more.
Agreed
I think the best shot we have at getting Pau would be in a three team deal. We have the expiring contracts, young upside players, and draft picks/Mirotic that would be very helpful as pieces in a larger deal for the Lakers, but I don’t see them wanting those things for themselves, seeing as they’re in a perpetual win-now mode.
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 6, 2012 11:28 AM CST up reply actions
I think it's worth a discussion
It is true that the Lakers could use some depth, and that is something that the Bulls can offer
Pat Riley is the devil.
Why would anyone want fairness for the Lakers?
Silly.
"How dare you mock this buxom wench!"
- William Regal defending Vickie Guerrero.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Feb 6, 2012 6:48 PM CST up reply actions
Are you telling me youve worked out a way to dump Booz and get Pau Gasol in return?!
5 internets for you, sir!
"There are two ways to argue with a woman, and neither of them work."
- Carlos Boozer after cancelling an interview with a Sports Illustrated reporter because his wife was expecting him home.
by Brigade17 on Feb 6, 2012 11:24 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Just for shits and giggles
Let’s see if we can work a 3 team deal that nets the Bulls Pau Gasol, the Lakers Dwight Howard, and the Magic youth and expiring contracts.
Best one I’ve found is
Bulls Get: Pau Gasol, Derek Fisher Give: Carlos Boozer, CJ Watson, Taj Gibson, rights to Mirotic
Magic Get: Andrew Bynum, CJ Watson, Taj Gibson, rights to Mirotic, Lakers pick Give: Dwight Howard, Hedo Turkoglu
Lakers Get: Dwight Howard, Carlos Boozer, Hedo Turkoglu Give: Pau Gasol, Andrew Bynum, Derek Fisher, pick
Bulls lose depth and Mirotic and get dealt a serious downgrade in backup PG. They get a decent offensive and massive defensive upgrade at the PF spot without losing any starters and only dropping two role players.
Magic obviously get shafted, but they will on any deal involving a top 5 player in the league. However, they get a solid, cheap PF in Taj, and a decent replacement in Bynum. They are shipping out nearly 30 million in salary and taking about 20. In two years, they would have only about 19 million guaranteed on the books, and two of those would be expirings, which can be pretty easy to get rid of. If they could keep Bynum for a reasonable salary, they would have cap room, Bynum, Mirotic and a few draft picks to build around (hopefully one of them is good). That’s not a bad restart.
Lakers get to stay in win now mode. Howard can cover for Boozer defensively and they still have an excellent frontcourt. Even Turk is not the worst guy to have around for depth and shooting.
I did this pretty quickly, so feel free to find a better one. I was trying to make something fit with JBJ’s point above, that the Lakers always want to be in win now mode.
by DRoseO1 on Feb 6, 2012 12:12 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
I can dig that more
just figuring that there’s few prices too high for Dwight if you’re the Lakers.
And I don’t even think the Magic turn out that shafted, if they’re getting Bynum. If they really wanted more draft picks I’m sure the Bulls could cough up their own or Charlotte’s.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 6, 2012 12:33 PM CST up reply actions
So the new teams would look like this
Bulls: Rose/Hamilton/Deng/Gasol/Noah
Lakers: Blake/Bryant/Turkoglu/Boozer/Howard
Magic: Nelson/J.Richardson/Q.Richardson/Anderson/Bynum
The new magic team looks really, really bad. I believe they will trade Howard, but I also believe they’d want a deal that lets them fight for a playoff spot, and I can’t say that new team would.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Feb 6, 2012 12:43 PM CST up reply actions
pishhh
Why would they want to make the playoffs, especially when there is pretty much no trade out there that will allow them to be even a top 3 team in the East? They get a young talent in Bynum, Mirotic in a few years, some draft picks, and if that team sucks as bad as I think it would, they’d have a high lottery pick of their own. It’s not about the present if they give up Howard. Look at them two years down the road. They will have 26 year old Bynum+22 year old Mirotic+Lakers pick (end of first round)their 2012 pick (my guess is end of the lottery if they drop far enough)their 2013 pick (my guess is high lottery)+whoever they can sign in 2013 free agency with a bunch of cap space. That team could end up being pretty good. If they drop far enough, they could end up with Austin Rivers with their pick, Mason Plumlee with the Lakers pick, and their 2013 pick could end up being fantastic! Shabazz Muhammad could end up being a fantastic scorer! Might be some decent free agents available too that year. Devin Harris, Monta Ellis, Josh Smith, Paul Millsap, Al Jefferson are all unrestricted. Some decent looking restricted free agents too. Again, no championship guaranteed, but a good rebuilding start. With a little luck, they could be very good and contending in 4 years or so.
"Why would they want to make the playoffs"
A picture of what the Magic will ultimately expect in a swap for their defensive anchor has indeed begun to emerge, with sources briefed on Orlando’s thinking telling ESPN.com this week that the Magic does not plan to hold out for youth and draft picks as the league-owned New Orleans Hornets were ordered to do in the Chris Paul sweepstakes. The Magic, sources say, would instead prefer to bring back multiple established veterans who can keep the team competitive.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Feb 6, 2012 2:07 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Oh poop
Lol. Well, did not see that story. It seems the Magic are more short sighted than I realized. Nice link, thanks!
Or that they're broke
Seeing as they’re paying Gilbert for 3 years something like $67M to not play for them. They are stuck for another 2 years paying basically the luxury tax level (just at the tax line) PLUS that $23M or whatever they owe Gilbert a year, and really can’t afford to do that if attendence drops by likely 40% post Howard while they rebuild….
It makes sense they’d want to stay in the playoff hunt financially, even if in the long haul it doesn’t. THey aren’t Chicago or La or New York, and arent’ likely to get anywhere near those sales in merchandising to offset the heavy losses they get for paying their team
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Damn arenas, he sucks so much
Well, to be fair though, this deal would save them about 10 million per year. It’s not a massive savings, but it would put them well under the luxury tax line.
I'm scared as F of the Lakers
With Boozer and Howard….which is the reason I’d keep Boozer if we had Howard. Add in a good, reliable PG and Kobe, and you just made them the favorites….
For that I say no.
Just think of it, Boozer is light years better than Lewis was in his best years in Orlando, and Howard and Kobe are scary enough.
I say no on that, not because we don’t get a nice team out of it, but because I htink the Lakers are in route for another dynasty.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
A fair point
Let’s see the matchups:
PG – Rose v. Blake
SG – Hamilton v. Kobe
SF – Deng v. Turk
PF – Pau v. Booz
C – Noah v. Howard
I suppose if they then signed Nash for the MLE or something like that it could be a very good team, but this year I would not be worried. Even then, Kobe is on the decline. He can still put up numbers but his TS% is declining, his turnover rate is increasing, he is declining. Booz also seems to be getting worse by the year. I think the same argument could be made that if the Bulls were able to get an even better option than Rip at SG and use Rip as a 6th man, or get a solid bench scorer, the Bulls could be awesome too. Heck, sign Ray Allen and you can tire Kobe out so much on the defensive end chasing Rip and Allen around screens. Maybe I am overreaching on how much Kobe is/will decline, but I’d give the Bulls a fair shot in that series.
Kobe will decline sure
But so will Gasol, he’s 31 now. Hamilton might alreayd have declined—in that he can’t get healthy.
Kobe + Howard + Boozer plus some playmaking from Turk plus when Blake is healthy at least an ok PG is a bear.
Kobe + Howard is a bear….
I think we underestimate Kobe right now, he’s as good as ever right now…and Howard will clean up any D holes that Boozer and Turk have….and then some.
I see we have 2 advantages in that comparison (Rose over Blake is huge) and Deng over Turk is big too, but they have Howard (who’ll get Noah in foul trouble and put up his seemingly 35-15 rates he’s been getting of late against us and some), and Boozer will get his pts and lessen the O loss of Gasol…
I just don’t think we’ll matchup well against them, and I’d fear them more than Miami in this scenario.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Ha. You said might.
Hamilton might alreayd have declined
Sorry, I just it was obvious he had declined, and can’t stay healthy. At all.
New signature coming...but its a process.
I'm willing to see what he does when healthy
He’s looked pretty good before the groin pull, and he tried coming back a bit early a few times to help the team.
I think it’s more he can’t stay healthy than any real decline…but it’s too early to know if it’s can’t stay healthy or just isn’t healthy yet…..and I’m willing to wait and see a bit.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I agree.
But I think the continued injuries over the past three seasons are indicative of the decline.
New signature coming...but its a process.
I still want to give it time
It’s easy to be “hurt” when you’re team is on 2 years of a 25-67 or wahtever pace, you hate your coach, your coach hates you, and the fun team that was is all gone. This one could be a real injury, and guys can get hurt.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I know he made too much money that that should be a concern
But that’s ont he Pistons fault, not ours…
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
i would love to trade 12' boozer for 09' rashard lewis.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
That's one of those whathavudoneformelately postss
Boozer rebounds much much better, boozer actually defends about as well if not better, boozer makes 5-6m a yr less, and boozer is not playing next to the great d gap plugger in Howard.
Boozers a clear upgrade to any version of Lewis as a 4
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 6, 2012 5:40 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Yes even an upgrade over the roided out lewis
He’s never been the same post the steroid bust, I think that’s more than a coincidence I mean he’s still what 30-31?
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 6, 2012 5:42 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
absolutely no way in hell does boozer defend as well as lewis did, for the simple reason
that lewis could actually move his feet laterally. and i’ll take the guy who can play 2 positions, move his feet on defense, cause mismatches and spread the floor over boozer any day.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
For every 1 defensive rebound Rashard Lewis pulls down, Carlos Boozer pulls down 2
I know I’m setting YFBB up to make some wisecrack, but that’s a huge disparity that can’t be ignored.
Rashard Lewis was never exactly the most athletic guy in the world either. I think it’s pretty telling that, before going to Orlando and teaming up with the perennial DPOY, Rashard Lewis was on some absolutely terrible defensive teams in Seattle. On the other hand, Carlos Boozer has been on a top 10 defensive team for 4 straight years now.
Pat Riley is the devil.
lets look at a 10 year RAPM.
i see boozer as a -1.9 and lewis as a -.5.
and by the way, heres lewis’ DRAPM for 09’ (which is the incarnation of lewis i was talking about in the first place).
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
sorry.
thats -1.9 vs -0.5 in DRAPM, not RAPM.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
But seriously, Kyle Korver is more or less as good a defensive rebounder as Rashard Lewis
Sorry for the triple post.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I think this is horrible for the Bulls
Bulls lose depth and Mirotic and get dealt a serious downgrade in backup PG. They get a decent offensive and massive defensive upgrade at the PF spot without losing any starters and only dropping two role players.
Show me exactly how this is a huge massive upgrade at PF. Gasol and Boozer are performing at almost the same level this year. There is absolutely no way Gasol is that much better than Boozer to essentially give up CJ, Taj, and Mirotic for him.
Also I don’t understand how people can rip on Boozer so much and then want Pau Gasol. I guarantee the same people that are ripping on Boozer will be ripping on Gasol just as much and for the same reasons.
Gasol's a 4/5 who can defend
Has multiple rings, can pass….
That’s an easy win for us there.
We’re in win now, not win in 3-4 years if Mirotic is ready. He could be the next Tiago Splitter (a guy that was supposed to be almost an immediate superstar when he cam ein last year—he could be good, but still needs time). We need to win now, and are paying to win now, with the big tax coming in 2 years.
Gasol is better than Boozer, and I like Boozer and am one of the few regular BaBers that like him, but he’s no Gasol and never was.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
It's an easy upgrade only if it's Boozer for Gasol straight up
Once you add in CJ and other people, I don’t think the trade is worth it
I'd actually rather give up Deng
Because we probably wouldn’t lose CJ in that deal. But then we have Boozer doing what exactly? Lowering any value he had in a trade even further, that’s what..
I’m fine losing CJ for a clear adv we’d get in Gasol (or at least a decent adv—Boozer is still pretty good), CJ has been solid if not for a backup GREAT this year, but he’s a luxury on a team that still has some needs (a solid #2 scorer). Boozer should and I htink could be that #2 scorer, but his lack of D keeps him in Thibs’s shit house, and regardless he’s not Gasol…..who has both.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Well
Show me exactly how this is a huge massive upgrade at PF. Gasol and Boozer are performing at almost the same level this year.
I think I can do that.
Point 1: This year, Boozer has been assisted on 72% of his baskets versus 58% for Gasol. To put that in terms of other players to make a better comparison, that’s the difference between 2007 Manu Ginobli and 2007 Keith Bogans or if you prefer current, the difference between Jason Terry and Anthony Parker. Since he is a big man, where the range is more like 40% to 82%, rather than starting at more like 30% for SG’s, the difference means even more. So, we are for sure getting a guy who can get his own shot better than Boozer.
Point 2: As much as Boozer is lauded for his passing, Gasol is a better passer. In terms of assist rate, Gasol’s worst year of the past 5 seasons is still noticeably better than Boozer’s best season. We would be getting an a guy who can pass better than Boozer.
Point 3: Defense is much better with Pau. I won’t bother with stats for that. The upgrade in defense is huge.
Point 4: Pau is about as good a rebounder as Boozer. Booz had been slightly better, but has declined a bit. Right now they are about even.
Point 5: Pau is much better at drawing fouls than Boozer. This is something the Bulls need help with. Gasol would be an upgrade in that department too.
Point 6: Gasol has been a more efficient scorer as well.
So, to summarize: Gasol is a better scorer, can get his own shot better, defend far better, rebound just as well, pass better, and draw fouls better. How is this not a massive upgrade?
by DRoseO1 on Feb 6, 2012 2:32 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I would like to prove your point with some evidence
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPQlXrRPNV4
speed it up to :40 seconds and please tell me the Noah and Gasol “running the fast break” isn’t scary enough with having DRose, Hamilton, and/or Deng filling in the lanes
He's a better outside shooter and
a more consistent pick and pop player. His spacing not only helps Rose’s game tremendously, but it gives Noah more room in the paint.
Two thoughts on this trade...
I think the Lakers and the Bulls would prefer to have Steve Blake included instead of Derrick Fisher.
I am concerned about the inclusion of Mirotic in this deal…if he is indeed a lottery talent, why not keep him around to replace Pau when we are sick of him in two years.
New signature coming...but its a process.
by Dionysus2.0 on Feb 6, 2012 3:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wouldn’t include Miritoc for any Pau Gasol deal. He could be washed up and is on the wrong side of 30. Not a good thing for such a big guy. And I can’t shake how the much better off the Lakers would be right now and for the next ten years if they kept Marc. I know Pau was a key piece for a title team for them, but we are getting a 32-33 year old 7 footer here.
by metalkiwis on Feb 7, 2012 7:48 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
One way to get the Lakers to bite would be if we offered to take Ron Artest from them
Something like: http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6ruoom7
Of course, I’m guessing the Bulls’ front office wants no part of Ron Artest.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Or maybe we absorb Luke Walton
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=6oucs26
Pat Riley is the devil.
no to both.
the both suck, and would take time away from Butler.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Feb 6, 2012 12:48 PM CST up reply actions
It's not about "Metta World" or Walton
It’s about Gasol….
And I’m in the maybe crowd…..I HATE Artest, and at least now he totally blows…but still.
I’d rather be up for Walton actually, even if he’s less talented, cuz he’s 1 year less….
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
the assumption is Gasol puts us over the Heat
is the currently roster really that bad that we have to take on Walton or Artest? I don’t think so, I would balk if the Lakers insisted on us taking back those two, especially when we have nice assets sweeten the deal.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
well tahts obvious
but good enough to the point we should consider taking on shit salary?
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
YES
Taking on shit salary without giving up too much depth is fine. Pau is that much better than Boozer.
Let’s do a simple comparison.
Post game: Pau
Size: Pau
Defense: Pau (by a ton)
Midrange game: wash (Pau is actually shooting a slightly better percentage this year, but not by much).
Drawing fouls: Pau
Getting his own shot: Pau
Championship experience: Pau
If we can get him without giving up more than Boozer+Asik or Taj+Picks and/or mirotic, why wouldn’t you do it? You only lose one rotation player and get an upgrade of massive proportions. Plus, we have a team that beats the Heat.
The Bulls would have a tremendous size advantage over any team. Rose is 6’3, Hamilton is 6’7, Deng is 6’9, Gasol is 7’, Noah is 7’. That is a big, physical front line. Teams would struggle to score 80 points! Yes, take on the shit salary as long as we don’t give up more than Boozer+1rotation player+picks
by DRoseO1 on Feb 6, 2012 2:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
well when you put it that way, I like it
but,
Yes, take on the shit salary as long as we don’t give up more than Boozer+1rotation player+picks
this is definitely important.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
i would like gasol + depth over dwight + rose
Damn am I good or what? I told you guys New York would win a title this year!!
Amen
to that, I believe we can be the Lakers of a couple years ago because of the 7’ anchors we’ll have in Noah and Gasol represents the same for the Gasol-Bynum tandem, and we still get to keep our 2 All-Stars (hopefully if Deng doesn’t get robbed) along with most of our BENCH MOB. I would just wait until we do hear from Przybilla on where he will play, and maybe add some kind of PG/SG combo guard as a 3rd string in case of injuries since I really do not trust John Lucas III and his size, and Mike James was good in his little stint, but what if he needs to step up in the playoffs when an injury occur? Anyone know our finances towards signing Przybilla and maybe a combo guard???
No, that probably wouldn't happen
In fact this is EXACTLY the same as the Boozer situation. You see something work somewhere else – “that duo of Deron Williams and Boozer is pretty great” – and think that you can apply it elsewhere – “Rose and Boozer would also be a good duo, if not better” – except you forget that the teams had different offensive systems, different personnel, and Rose and Deron have different skill sets. It probably won’t work the same.
Same thing with the “twin 7-footers” in LA. That worked for THEIR system and THEIR personnel, not the Bulls. Everyone is going to be severely disappointed if that’s what they are expecting by making a trade for Gasol.
Boozer didn't get a max offer for a reason
Folks knew he was good, but not $100M good.
And Boozer’s been much more solid here than his rep (I mean we’re about to be a top 1-3 team again for the second year in a row, he’s a big part of that even if his individual #‘s aren’t at the Jazz levels. His #‘s per minute, PER etc aren’t really too different, we just have a deeper team with different rotations, and a different mix of talent.
Gasol can fit any system because he can play both ends and play them well. Last year through at least mid year if not more he was playing like the best Laker before some mild injuries slowed him a bit—and he was mostly playing a lot of 5 for the ever injured Bynum who’s never it seems played htis long before getting hurt.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I understand your point, but
as pointed out in the above comments it is easily observed how much better Gasol is than Boozer at this point, do I expect Gasol to be a 20-10 guy like we wished when we got Boozer, no. I want a consistent PF, like the Luol Deng version of the PF, just let Gasol do what he’s got to do on offense, and bring a better pressure in the paint than Boozer. I honestly like the rotation of Gasol-Noah-Gibson-Przybilla-THE WHITE MAMBA a little better than our current rotation, unfortunately losing someone of Omer’s stature is going to be missed, but lately Thibs has used him less, so the thought of having Gasol do what he is capable of is alot better than what we thought Boozer can bring back in the Summer of ’10.
Meh, both would be awesome
but “depth” is fleeting. Howard and Rose is forever
Whoever keeps putting Justin Timberlake in all these movies, please, stop.
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 6, 2012 2:21 PM CST up reply actions
meh. not if its noah and deng youre keeping
i like noah deng gasol rose > dwight rose + fillers
Damn am I good or what? I told you guys New York would win a title this year!!
by sin on Feb 6, 2012 2:33 PM CST up reply actions
It depends
I like Noah, Gasol, Deng, and Rose for THIS year. But Dwight + Rose is way better going forward. You can build around that and be a dominant team for years to come whereas Gasol is already declining so your window is a low smaller. And then you’ll be looking for a replacement for Gasol and wishing you just went ahead and got Dwight anyway.
But everyone is trying to gut us for Pau.
No we should not give up three players that could start in this league (Brewer, Asik, CJ) plus one that could be the second option to Rose we have been searching for in Mirotic just to upgrade from Booz to Pau.
People can be fucking idiots sometimes.
by metalkiwis on Feb 7, 2012 8:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ok, this is just agitating
Nobody i suggesting we gut the team for Pau. Other than Boozer, who would be replaced by Pau, I advocated giving up EITHER Taj or Asik and future prospects (draft picks and maybe Mirotic). How is that gutting the team? To get a big upgrade in talent by giving up the player who he will replace (Booz) and one rotation player is not gutting.
I have seen every player sent away in awful amature GM proposals. People are clamoring to gut the team. It does not make sense.
You are not getting Pau for Booz and one player plus picks. Go put that up at their blog and be called an idiot and hang your head in shame. The Lakers are winners and winners generally don’t make such stupid moves.
The kind of depth we would have to give up to upgrade from Booz to Pau is not going to be worth it.
Pau can be a beast. I would love him at his peak. His prime is probably past him now. He is big and due to break down faster. I know you can point to the rare big man that lasts, but as a whole being 7 feet and near 300lbs will take more of a toll on you.
near 300? he can't be more than 250, he barely looks bigger than Noah
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
well that was weird...
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
NBA has him listed at 250
but that fluctuates I’m sure. He always looked bulkier than Jo to me. It is a big difference, but he is still a giant of a human being and that does not bode well for his ability to age well and play at a high level into his mid 30s.
I’m not sure he isn’t washed up already. We speculate it’s his fit in the new offense, but it could be their new offense HAS to go through Kobe more because Pau lost something from his game. Upgrade over Boozer? Yeah, a bit. But I’ll keep in the Mirotic lottery for a few more years. With the new salary structure, he may be our only real chance to upgrade this team in a big, affordable way in a few years.
I’m in on something like giving up Booz, Brewer and Korver can go, one or the other or both, and Taj. It’s not going to be wise to give up draft pics in this current CBA, I don’t believe. And we can’t sign everyone, so if Asik is going to be let go, may as well include him too. Our other plans really matter. So Booz, Korver and Asik I would trade for Pau. They could see in Omer what the Grizz saw in Marc adn try it that way. They will need to be lucky and creative to field a good team around Kobe’s huge cap number.
Finances are a bigger deal going forward. And I take back Taj. We have him fairly cheaply through next season(with a chance to match offer the season after) so I say we hold on to him. His value is crazy being a near starter for under 2.2 mil.
This is all hypothetically fun and all, but is there anything in the LA camp that would suggest the would even consider such a trade proposal?
I think just adding JR Smith puts the Bulls over the top as his skill set directly addresses the Bulls two biggest weaknesses – ball handling and shot creation.
Bulls biggest weaknesses are
still post scoring (easily our only real weakness) and shot creation (a far second given Rose).
Gasol gives us that real post scoring that Boozer is capable of in spots (but prefers jump shooting) and Gasol’s passing can open things up a bit more for the team (which even if Boozer’s decent as a passer, he’s not as good as Gasol).
Hamilton is a solid shooter and passer, and I think if he can get healthy I’d definitely take him and his mid range game over JR’s chucking.
JR’s a chucker.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Have to disagree
We both agree that shot creation is one of them, but I disagree that the post scoring is an issue. Bulls have been very efficient offensively this year and Boozer has been effective scoring in the post. Not necessarily posting up, but he does score in the post. And he’s been pretty effective the rare time he has posted up, it’s more an issue of the Bulls not giving him the opportunity to post up often.
But most importantly, the reason I disagree with post scoring being a higher need over ball handling is that you can’t score in the post if the Bulls struggle to advance the ball in the first place.
Also, JR is one of the most efficient SG’s. He gets to the rim very well and can finish. He’s way better than Rip. I’ll agree that Rip is a better passer and all around play maker, but JR is a better shooter, scorer, and ball handler. In the end, why can’t we have both? Especially given that there have been so many injuries to perimeter players.
I guess
I think the easy makes are what we’re missing, we’re predicated on Rose driving and hopefully if he misses on a Noah tip in.
Boozer may score from the post, but it’s generally 1 foot away from the foul line post, not often enough creating near the rim (he can, and certainly a few times tries, but he also often fouls when he tries and doesn’t try enough).
Gasol can get the ball in the post and his combination of size, and passing makes him ideal to have there. He can play in the post, has natural back to the basket game that he uses, and is just solid offensively but has developed into a solid defensive player as well.
Oh well, the Bulls aren’t likely to get him, but in this blog dream, it would be nice. Plus think of it the Rockets almost got him for what Luis Scola and Kevin Martin—granted from a different team, but I think Boozer Watson and 2 picks trumps that? So ya never know.
As for Smith, he’s a career 42% shooter who averages almost 16 FGA per 36 minutes and as such only plays 25MPG. If we did get him, we’d have him for this year (very unlikey since we don’t have the monies to bring him on, and if we brought him on it would just be for this year). Plus I just don’t think he’s quite as good as Hamilton is when healthy (even at this age). And that doesn’t even count the fact he can’t defend
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
there was a fanpost at the beginning of the season that detailed a nice orl chi la swap
With us landing pau
Orlando landing bynum picks etc
lakers landing boozer and dwight
Damn am I good or what? I told you guys New York would win a title this year!!
cool story and no link
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 7, 2012 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Some additional notes I forgot to include late last night
This is an offer that I think the Bulls should make to see what the Lakers are looking for. It’s not the maximum that I would be willing to give from the Bulls’ perspective, and if the Lakers have other priorities, the trade could be amended in a number of ways.
First and foremost, if Reinsdorf is willing (and as Poloplaya mentioned above), the Bulls could also take back Luke Walton. This might not seem like much to most fans, but it’s very important to the owners. Considering both salary and luxury tax implications, it would be the rough equivalent of Reinsdorf sending Jerry Buss $20 million in cash considerations, spread out over two seasons. That’s a powerful motivator for the Lakers if Jerry is so inclined.
Second, if the Lakers strongly prefer CJ to Brewer due to their point guard and shooting difficulties, I wouldn’t hesitate to include him instead. I really like CJ, but if the Bulls are healthy in the playoffs, the backup point guard role is limited. They could then trade Brewer for a decent CJ replacement, with Jordan Farmar, Ramon Sessions, Luke Ridnour, and Chris Duhon among the possibilities. I would probably be willing to send both CJ and Brewer if the Lakers provided a Brewer-sized trade exception in return.
Third, I wouldn’t be opposed to giving up the Charlotte pick. It feels more valuable than it actually is. The odds of it turning into a top pick are remote, both in terms of probability and time. The most likely outcome is a mid-round pick in a few years, and that shouldn’t hold up a trade to improve the team now.
I also meant to include an interesting stat I discovered last night: Kobe Bryant leads the league in field goal attempts by 133, a staggering 30% edge over anyone else in the NBA. No wonder Pau isn’t a big fan of the new offense.
by from the window to luol on Feb 6, 2012 6:51 PM CST reply actions
You had me until you listed he who shall not be named in the context of ever rejoining the bulls
No Chris Duhon
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 6, 2012 6:58 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Kobe's open!
Yes, it’s 4 AM. Who cares? HE’S OPEN.
Rose decides not to go 1-on-2 and I was thinking, "what are you doing?! You've got the numbers!" -Zach Harper, Daily Dime Live
i love this trade idea
Rose-Hamilton-Deng-Gasol-Noah is a monster lineup. I don’t have any doubts that team kills the league. At least a good 2-3 year run with that team then the salaries start to open up for Drose’s 2nd Dynasty.
OT: Other reasonable (or perhaps undreasonable) trades
First, I love most of these trades that gets us Gasol. Guy would be a perfect fit. I was thinking, if the Bulls wanted to shake things up (which I doubt they will), it might be nice to look at other reasonable trades. I’ve got a few ideas.
Ben Gordon from Pistons: I think this could work for both teams. Bulls get a bonafide scorer off the bench (or heck, a decent starter while Hamilton is out). The guy is a stone cold killer when healthy. This trade saves Detroit almost 2 million this year and these contracts end a year sooner. I’d be willing to throw in our pick as well. Big issue would be BG’s health. It’s been a concern this year and last.
Monta Ellis from Warriors: This might be a bit of a pie in the sky thing, but hear me out. There had been rumors that the Warriors were not wanting to pay both Steph Curry and Monta Ellis. Mark Jackson wants a defensive minded team. Ronnie and CJ both fit that bill perfectly. The Warriors also save 2 million dollars. I would throw in the Charlotte pick and Mirotic if necessary (I am sure at least one, if not both would be). Golden State is not going anywhere this year and these contracts would expire before they had to pay Curry. This is a bit of a slap in the face to Rip, but he’s been injured. I am sure he could still log a ton of time as a 6th man (even some backup PG might be in order). Again, it’s probably unreasonable, but I can dream can’t I?
Bulls rotation.
Rose (36) – Monta (12)
Monta (22) – Hamilton (26)
Deng (34) – Korver (10) – Hamilton – (4)
Boozer (34) – Taj (14)
Noah (34) – Asik (10) – Taj (4)
I am probably being unreasonable with Deng only playing 34 minutes, but whatever.
I assume these are just crazy, but thought I’d throw them out there anyway. Or we could just do my personal favorite: get healthy, trade nobody, win an NBA title and say screw you to everyone else!
That Ben Gordon trade is intriguing.
Gordon next to CJ or Rose would be fantastic, and when other teams like the Heat go small you can even go with a three guard lineup now and have great scoring all around. Say the Heat go with
Cole/Wade/Miller/Bron/Bosh, you can counter that with Rose/Gordon/Rip/Deng/Joakim for stretches.
The Monta deal is stretching it a bit because it feels like Golden State loves Ellis, and if I read correctly somewhere, doesn’t their owner love him too? But That would be a great trade too.
But these deals are all secondary to a Dwight deal. He’s gotta be priority number 1
Ya, the Monta deal was stretching it
Although, I do feel like they will have to ditch Curry or Ellis at some point. Right now, Curry is scheduled to get his pay day in the 2013-14 season. If he gets something like Rondo’s extension which started at about 10 million, they would have 44 million locked up in Lee/Ellis/Curry/Biedrins (assuming Ellis and Biedrins accept their options). Biedrins won’t get many takers on the trade market, but Ellis or Lee might. My guess is that they need to get rid of Ellis or risk losing him the year after for nothing, unless they think that lineup with whoever else they can get will put them anywhere near a championship.
Maybe I am wrong, but I am betting Ellis or Curry will eventually have to go.
You'd think that one of them needs to go,
but people have been saying that ever since Curry was drafted yet nothing’s happened yet. Personally, I’d prefer Curry to Ellis because he’s a better shooter and would be a better option off of Rose, but I don’t really see how that deal would work.
but they were also getting Paul
which was the whole basis for the trade
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Depends
Martin could be viewed as a replacement for Kobe eventually, but Brewer could be a better bench player at SG/SF then anyone they have, and I think Boozer+Asik far outweighs Scola. With Boozer they’d get a decent PF for scoring and rebounding, and Asik for the defense that Mike Brown craves.
Caracter would just be filler anyway, he’s an injury prone attitude problem
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To follow up on your point
If this report from Poopsworld (read: grain of salt) is true about the Lakers and Celtics having interest in a Gasol for Rondo swap, the Lakers are definitely looking for more than Boozer and some role players in a deal for Pau.
Well, CJ is playing at a starter level this year
I don’t see CJ as a role player. CJ is the best non-starter in the league. Heck, with the stats he is posting, he could start for most teams. It’s just whether or not you can convince the Lakers that Boozer would do nearly as well with what you have been asking Pau to do. Honestly, it might not be too far from the truth. Pau has been forced to become a lower usage player taking more jumpshots. The downgrade to Boozer will mostly kill them on defense. If I were the Bulls, I’d even be willing to go CJ+Asik+Boozer for Pau+Blake or Fisher. The Lakers get a starting PG, a power forward that can still hit jumpshots and do fine offensively, and a backup center. They currently have no backup center and their best backup bigman is Josh McRoberts. Seriously, Josh McRoberts. The Bulls would need to go out and sign Joel Pryzbilla as a backup big, but to me both teams look better.
Bulls:
PG – Rose (36), Fisher (12)
SG – Hamilton (30), Brewer (18)
SF – Deng (38), Korver (10)
PF – Pau (30), Taj (18)
C – Noah (34), Gasol (6), Pryzbilla (8)
That looks like a championship caliber roster to me.
Lakers:
PG – Watson (30), Blake (18)
SG – Kobe (38), Ebanks? (10)
SF – MWP (30), Barnes (18)
PF – Boozer (32), McRoberts (16)
C – Bynum (34), Asik (14)
I honestly feel like this is better than what they have now. Maybe I overestimate CJ, but that looks like a better team.
Rose, Rip, Pau, Booze, Noah
I’ll go to war with that
Play zone all game long
Here's a fun one....
http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7urm985
Bulls trade:
Luol Deng and CJ Watson to the Lakers
Bulls trade Carlos Boozer, our first round pick this year and the Charlotte Draft Rights to the Celtics
Lakers trade
Pau Gasol to the Bulls
Celtics trade Ray Allen and Keyon Dooling to the Bulls
Why this works for the Lakers: they plug in their massive needs for the SF and PG spots, they do drop at the PF spot, but have McRoberts and Murphy (and even Metta World at PF) on board so should be able to proceed (they don’t need Pau like htey have in the past becuase of Bynum being healthy—or at least they’re not quite using Pau enough). They get younger with Deng and CJ and fill those holes.
Why this works for the Celtics. They lose a punch they had in free agency next year we’re they’d now have $48M tied in for Pierce-Boozer-Rondo-Bass, so they may not be done (they seem to be and have been shopping the tranny alien quite a bit, which may still happen in another move), but they get some much needed size and some potential down the line. I don’t think this hurts them in the now, and may help them later, esp with that pick.
Obviously right now this works this year great fro the Bulls:
Rose-Dooling-Lucas III
Allen-Brewer-Korver-Hamilton
Hamilton-Brewer-Korver-Allen-Butler
Gasol (20)-Gibson (28)
Noah-(34)-Gasol (14)
Lakers post trade
Watson-Blake-Fisher
Bryant and I don’t know I guess Barnes
Deng-Barnes-World Peace
McRoberts-Murphy-World Peace
Bynum
Celtics post trade
Rondo-Bradley
Pietrus-Daniels
Pierce-Daniels-Pavlovic
Boozer-Bass-Wilcox
Garnett-Asik-Steisma and I guess O’Neal…plus picks from CHicago down the line.
Celtics
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Loss of Deng is much more softened
By the ridiculous spacing opened up with us having Ray Allen and Richard Hamilton on the wings.
Thibs had Ray Allen playing star like defense in Boston, and I think he can still do that here since he really hasn’t lost a step post his Sonics injuries and is still perhaps the best shooter in the game even at what 37?….
Hamiton and Allen running around the court together would be awesome for Rose, the impact and Thibs D sysetm would be awesome.
Gasol’s one of the best passing bigs there is, and is good inside and out and defensively in his own right, that’s huge.
Bulls would have to work an extension for Ray Ray for this to work of course, but I think our already good to great starting lineup if ever healthy, is even stronger. Hamilton might best be a 2, but the combo of Thibs system and Brewer, Korver really adds big there.
We lose Luol and CJ and Boozer, but in their place, we improve at hte 4, improve at the 2.
I think we could talk wtih the C’s and possibly add more to make this doable, but I think them netting Asik and Boozer for Allen and Dooling in and of itself is a no brainer, it’s mostly that KG doesn’t want to be a C, never has….but he’s not going to make $22M next year so I guess they have him live with it, he should be able to cover there, but if that’s the hiccup, we can talk more with them.
I don’t see the Lakers getting much better than a 26 and 27 year old SF and PG, both of whom can be starters and one is at a career high right now…..the wrist injury would have to be evalutaed by the Lakers Docs of course, but the fact that Luol’s played as awesomely as he has the 2 games back, would make you think it’s a go.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
This is a little to "all in" for me right now.
If the Ray Allen, Pau Gasol combo does not net a championship rather quickly, the Bulls could be screwed with all those older guys. Here’s the way I see it. Rose is a championship PG and a great number one option. Deng and Noah are not the best at their positions, but they are excellent secondary options. Boozer and Rip are the question marks right now. If we make the trades you suggest, we know that Allen and Gasol can do it (as they have before), but if Allen loses a step and Gasol’s age catches up with him, now you have Allen and Rip and Gasol to replace. I like having three guys under 27 years old to build with. I’ll gladly give both of them up for another bonafide star, but not to get older at 3 positions (Rip to Ray, Deng to Rip, Boozer to Gasol).
I know it's a big risk, especially for a team that may win without it
But Ray Allen is up for a new contract after the year (we could wait on tha tif need be) and worst case Gasol is out in 2 years post this one (as would Allen be in my talk of extenion).
Gasol and Boozer are the same age, Gasol’s a more complete version of Boozer with legitimate size efficiencies allowing him to be a PF or C.
I know losing Deng isn’t easy either is losing CJ (who we’ll probably trade at the end of this year I’d think in the trade high thing, but ya never know, we’ll only have him for next year either way).
We can run with his tandem through the first wave of Rose, and then worry about rebuilding with the then 25-26 yr old Rose for hte next wave.
I know it’s a risk, but I think this helps us compete more agains thte Heat (the improvements offensively and movement with Ray and Rip can make up for the lapse at the 3 in losing Deng’s D, especially against Miami, and what’s more James and Wade can’t tandem on Rose without leaving 2 of the best all time jump shooters open. I know they have Battier, but he can’t guard both, and isn’t quite the Battier of a few years ago. Ray Allen is the same player he’s been since his ankle injuries in Seattle, and I don’t see barring an injury again anyting happening short term (he really is ridiculously fit), injuries can happen to any guy though at any time, and Ray Ray has been holding up.
It’s no slam dunk for us, it’s the biggest on paper improvement for LA (improve 2 of their deepest holes, while softeing their 4 spot (though they have nice rotational players there and a great back to basket C in the emerging Bynum to make up for that), and I really think Boston is poised to keep Pierce in tow as the face of the franchise and prep for the next run. Plus I think Rondo and Boozer are a great tandem, and Boozer will fit better with a more pass first PG, and Boozer/Asik gives them their biggest weakness (post depth), they would need to use their coming up cap money to work on athleticism at the wing, but that’s not something they have in Ray Allen today anyway…..
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I think in the end this gets us poised to rebuild again in 3 years rather than in 4
Which is how we’re set up today….if it doesn’t work out, and I think it’s better against at least the Heat than what we have today.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Interesting you bring the Celtics up
I think Kevin Garnett would be a great fit for Bulls, Thibs, defensive-oriented schemes (and Noah would get over it in time : >)…if you could somehow convince Danny Ainge that Boozer would be his type of player.
A couple of years all-in on Garnett, playing 25-30 minutes a game only sharing with Taj would be a great fit.
We can't afford kg without gutting our roster
He makes almost 22m and is worth maybe half that bc he’s 7ft
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 8, 2012 6:05 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Boozer is actually playing at a higher level than Gasol this year
Hard as that is to believe.
Having said that, it seems like we’re giving up Asik in this deal just to get outta Boozer’s contract and take on Pau’s (year shorter)
That is hard to believe
Because it’s not true.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Feb 8, 2012 5:29 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
Offensively it's close
Defensively, not nearly.
by DRoseO1 on Feb 8, 2012 5:43 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 1 recs
From a Lakers' fan perspective, that's not enough, although I am a big Asik fan.
The only way the Lakers are trading Pau is if they can get 1) a serviceable replacement for him in the frontcourt; 2) more depth to fill out their bench; 3) a significant upgrade at one of their positions of need, which is at the point and the three. In this proposed deal, the Lakers are basically downgrading from Pau to Boozer in order to get Asik, Brewer, and a really late first rounder, which doesn’t cut it.
In the nixed Paul trade for instance, Houston was willing to give up Scola, Martin, Dragic, and the Knicks’ 2012 first rounder for Pau. If you assume that they would have been willing to give up those assets in a straight-up deal with the Lakers — questionable seeing as they were partially making it to clear cap space so they could make a run at Nene as well, but for the purposes of discussion — then the Lakers would be downgrading from Pau to Scola while getting a big upgrade at the point in Dragic, a sixth man in Martin, and a much better first rounder from the Knicks.
Basically, if the Bulls want Pau, they would have to offer, Deng, Boozer, a bench piece like Brewer, and probably take back a bad deal like Metta World Peace’s. Obviously, there’s small chance of that actually happening because it’s not a fair deal for the Bulls, but it’s the kind of deal that would make the Lakers think about trading Pau.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
Actually, that really doesn't work.
Boozer is due $17 million in ‘14-’15, which is the same year during which the Lakers have $0 committed to anyone on the roster and a certain player in Miami is a free agent (along with a lot of other interesting options). Assuming the Lakers keep Kobe past that point on a reasonable deal along with Bynum (or Howard) on an extension, having Boozer’s hugely overpriced salary on their cap would be especially damaging to their prospects.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
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