Derrick Rose Denies He Asked Bulls To Trade Boozer For Gasol
by SB Nation NBA News on Feb 23, 2012 1:09 PM CST
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[Thanks to the mothership for chipping in. For what it's worth, even as local beat guys downplayed the story Chris Sheridan is sticking to it...semantically. The story could be true AND Rose is telling the truth, and if the latter's lying there's nothing to lose by doing so and sticking up for one's teammates. -yfbb]
(SB Nation Chicago, Steve von Horn) On Sunday night, a potential Carlos Boozer for Pau Gasol trade between the Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers set off speculation around the NBA, but Derrick Rose says the basis of that rumor is false. After Kobe Bryant told reporters he wants the Lakers to make a decision on Pau Gasol, Spanish news outlet Marca reported that Rose had "given his blessing" to Bulls management to explore a trade for Gasol.
SheridanHoops.com founder and lead writer Chris Sheridan then confirmed the report, saying Rose made it known privately that he wants Gasol.
Rose recently responded to those reports in a talk with Jon Greenberg of ESPNChicago.com, and said all of the talk is way off base:
"I heard about it after (Monday's) game," Rose said. "That's something I wouldn't say to anyone, that I need someone to come to this team or I'm trying to get rid of someone on this team. It was all false and that's something I would never do. [Boozer] should know, but I talked to him a little bit," Rose said. "But I think he already knew they were false, where it's something I wouldn't do to anyone, especially trade him to any team. It was all false."
"I'm good with the teammates I have," Rose said. "I've always been saying that. The team that I have, we've been winning games, and we're not in the position to look to trade anyone right now."
Head coach Tom Thibodeau also said the current group of players is ready to compete and that no trades are needed, but will the front office pull the trigger if a big name player is available at the deadline? Stay tuned.
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Boozer........
Bleh.
Cacti are prickly.
by crackedcactus on Feb 23, 2012 1:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
SEE YA ON TEH BOOZ CRUISE, BABY
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 23, 2012 1:29 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
I'm not saying the reports are true, but even if they were it's not like Rose would come out
and say “Yeah, of course I gave them my blessing. Any thing to get rid of Boozer.” It is the F.O.‘s job to explore all trade scenarios, and if they think it would make the team better they should pull the trigger. I’m not sure they would ask Rose for his permission.
I mean I’m sure they might want his thoughts on it, but if Rose says no, but the F.O. likes the trade, are they gonna back out and say “We can’t do it, Rose didn’t give the okay.” I just want the trade deadline to pass so there’s no more trade rumors. People either get their hopes up, or want to jump off a bridge.
Rollin with RIP.........whenever he actually comes back.
He met up with Metta World Peace and worked that name out.
"Sleep is the brother of broke."
- Chris Douglas-Roberts
by Brigade17 on Feb 23, 2012 8:34 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
part of me is happy rose is humble..but another is hoping that he is a sneaky bastard with cojones to actually say "ship his ass out, gimme the guy with 2 rings"
i mean..this pic says it all:
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
Of course...
Because Korver has such awesome post up skills right?
I get it, I really do, Boozer is undersized for a power forward, but does anyone really think he should be playing any other position?
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 24, 2012 12:02 PM CST up reply actions
that picture has some noted depth of field illusion.
boozer’s 6’9 for god’s sake. and korver is huge isn’t he almost 6’7?
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
was replying to this specifically
Boozer is undersized for a power forward,
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 12:37 PM CST up reply actions
Boozer is nowhere near 6 foot 9...
Have you ever seen him in person? He’s definitely undersized (in height) for an NBA power forward.
That being said, he’s not really suited to play any other position in my opinion.
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 24, 2012 1:16 PM CST up reply actions
He'd be a badass wrestling villian too
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 24, 2012 1:26 PM CST up reply actions
One time I saw Ben Gordon at the mall and I swear he was 3 feet tall.
Gotta love callbacks!
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 24, 2012 1:31 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
was he wearing heels that day?
"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."
by boyonthedock on Feb 24, 2012 6:20 PM CST up reply actions
no but him and luol seem to be around the same height.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
And unless I'm mistaken Luol is a SMALL forward.
Who OCCASIONALLY can play the 4 when matchups are favored.
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 24, 2012 3:21 PM CST up reply actions
yeah, who's 6'8 or 6'9 right?
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 7:03 PM CST up reply actions
they're both listed as 6'9.
see: Boozer’s first game as a Bull, announcer, call out “Duke forward, 6’9”
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
by dantheman3k on Feb 24, 2012 10:51 PM CST up reply actions
That's the point...
Players aren’t always their listed height.
It happens more frequently than you think.
by Khalid El-Amin on Feb 24, 2012 11:02 PM CST up reply actions
I know
KG is “not” a 7 footer, Charles Barkley “is” 6’4.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
KG most definately is 7 feet tall
"We got to win. Win no matter what. Trip, kick somebody, fight, bite. Whatever. Win." - Derrick Rose
No longer Rolling with Bogans……now we “Cruise with Booz”
Formerly macjack09
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
"Brian Dawkins is always 100% Eagles related."--macjack09 & BGN Nation
by Saukrates on Feb 23, 2012 2:56 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
not sure why
but i rec’d this
Just wee-un.
by jesus christos on Feb 25, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions
I know if I were in the NBA and wanted my team to make a trade
the first place I would go to let my opinion be known is to a Spanish news outlet.
This space is available.
by MrBungle on Feb 23, 2012 4:00 PM CST reply actions 8 recs
Again, this rumor was started by Marca
And being an Arsenal fan, just European football in general, there’s a lot of papers like Marca over there that are basically sports “tabloids” rather than just reporting good to honest sports news. As soon as I saw the source, I pretty much knew instantly that it was going to be false, one because Marca reported Rose in saying this, even though they don’t say when or where he said it, and two, it wasn’t mentioned anywhere else, not even ESPN or the Tribune or the Sun-Times. If you go talk to some of the SB soccer writers for the front page, Kevin McCauley, Graham McAree, etc., they’ll tell you the exact same thing. I’m not ripping into anyone here, but we need to dig deeper into sources and articles before we go all AWOL on them.
UMD Bulldogs: 2011 NCAA DI Men's Hockey Nat'l Champions; 2008 & 2010 NCAA DII Football Nat'l Champions
I'm letting Marca off the hook and purely focusing on Sheridan.
it’s his story now. Independent source! May owe KC a beer. And we know the dude likes it rare and expensive.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 23, 2012 4:54 PM CST up reply actions
Yeah, once a "legit" guy goes and runs with it,
it’s on him. He was even on the radio the other day saying that Gasol will be traded in the very near future, as opposed to closer to the deadline. But like others have said, he’s got his own site and probably wants to generate traffic, so who knows how real his sources are?
I just don't see Gasol getting traded anytime soon.
Lakers aren’t dealing him unless they’re receiving a significant talent in return and the only one that seemed somewhat likely (Lowry) was shot down by Morey last week. Maybe he gets dealt near the draft so the Lakers restock with a high pick and another nice piece while his new team doesn’t have to pay him as much, but that’s the soonest he gets dealt unless something new materializes.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
With all this talk of Gasol being traded...has anyone considered that the Lakers might trade Kobe instead?
or is that too out there?
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
by SidM on Feb 23, 2012 5:52 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
true
Bit kobes trade value is more…esp for a team needing ticket sale revenue
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
by Belize on Feb 23, 2012 7:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
In two years Kobe will be making 30 mil+ a year.
That better be a lot of tickets.
This space is available.
Kobe sells that easily
And if he can keep it up he has a chance tone all time top scorer.
Gasols pretty solid but Kobe is better by far yesterday today and tomoorow
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 23, 2012 7:52 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
you can say that again.
Fukudometer: Created 3/31/08 Wrigley Debut 4/5/08 WGN and Japan TV Debut 4/6/08 Sun Times Debut: 4/20/08 Coffee Table Debut: 7/17/08
Kobe sells that easily
And if he can keep it up he has a chance tone all time top scorer.
Gasols pretty solid but Kobe is better by far yesterday today and tomoorow
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 23, 2012 8:03 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Kobe has a NTC....so no
"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory."
he was ready to waive it if we didn't give up Deng a few years ago...
who’s to say he wouldn’t waive it this time?
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
ohgodwhyamiwastingeffortonthis???
I can’t sleep. Anyway if the Lakers see the writing on the wall that this group is done they could ask Kobe to waive his clause to finish his career in Philly.
Kobe and Walton for Brand Iggy and Lou Williams works.
Of course that would have to go hand-in-hand with a trade of Bynum/Gasol/Barnes for Howard/Turk/JJ/Duhon.
I enjoy playing GM too much.
TL;DR
Its a nice theory that great players sell tickets
But every analysis I have read indicates that winning teams sell tickets and that it has little to do with the public belief that a player is a star.
Didn't bulls sell tix when we were abysmal
Kobe sells tix, Kobe sells merchandise,
Kobe yields stories about team
Kobe gets national and espn games
Even if he slips he will still have that bc he’s bound to push some more records soon (and he isn’t slipping)
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 23, 2012 11:40 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
well being great goes hand-in-hand with winning, especially in the NBA.
Did AI boost sales in DET? How about TMac in ATL? Neither guy would have quite the same impact as Kobe though. I can’t think of another star that we could compare it to. This would be on a whole other level.
TL;DR
But Allen Iverson didn't
Iverson is an overrated scorer, when he was in philly and they were winning they sold tickets. When he was in philly and not winning, ticket sales dropped. When he was in Denver and not winning, he did not increase ticket sales. Star players help sell tickets to the extent that they help teams win more, but there is no super star boost above that.
all you really have to do to sell coby is his desire to break the all time scoring record
can you imagine the buzz before the season starts for that team? + games against LA..etc
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
Like I said
Its a nice theory, but something that is easily measured. And when it is investigated, the star effect that you describe insn’t found. The bulls are all ready selling out their games. Buzz does not make money. Kobie has little way to increase the Bulls profit.
im not talking bout the bulls..im just saying he would be a perfect sell for a small market team that sells no ticket
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
MJ sold a ton of tix in dc
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
by majoyenrac on Feb 24, 2012 11:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 2 recs
Your comparing Kobe to the greatest player ever?
I think Iverson is a better comparison.
This space is available.
When journalists were breaking apart the CBA, I believe there were a lot of articles discussing the value of maxed out tier 1 superstars
Since there’s a ceiling on how much they get paid, they’re basically all a bargain. The guys that get maxed out who aren’t true superstars (Joe Johnson), are the guys that might lose an NBA franchise profit.
If stars on the tier of Kobe were paid what they were actually worth in terms of their contribution to a franchise’ profitability… I remember a figure of $50 mil/year was thrown out there, but whatever it actually is it pales in comparison to his collectively bargained $30 mil salary.
There are the guys who get you the need baskets," says Bulls reserve forward Brian Scalabrine, referring to the vital hoops that stop runs and close out games. "I have a different word for killers. I call them mother-------. And right now, Derrick Rose is the baddest mother------ in the league by far. He is the reason we win.
Rivers and DeSchriver (2002) studied the effect of star players and payroll distribution on attendance. The authors found that a star player must have made a significant contribution to their team in the current year in order to have a significant effect on attendance. Those star players who do not impact team success in a given year will have little or no effect on attendance. In addition, the authors found that higher payroll will significantly increase attendance. However, the relationship between intra-team payroll variation and attendance was negative. The results suggest Major League Baseball teams with a more balanced payroll distribution have better attendance than those who pay one or two players most of the team payroll. Star players may increase season ticket sales in the short term. However, in the long term a more balanced roster will positively impact attendance. Previous studies (Noll, 1974; Whitney, 1988) have proven a strong relationship between on-field success and attendance. When the balance of the payroll distribution shifts to one or two players this can decrease the winning percentage and create a negative effect on attendance.
Again, in summary, there is no long term value to the star aspect of a player. If Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol both are responsible for 10 wins in a season, than when either of them are traded they will have the same effect on the income of the new team in the long run because of the 10 wins brought with them. The fact that Kobe is a greater star does not produce a long term effect of increased profits. Additionally, while Kobe may be worth 50 million because of the 10 wins, Gasol is also worth 50 million and is getting paid less.
If Kobe was traded to a small market team and there was an equal trade in talent, than the small market team (SMT) would not win more games. However, than fans would likely expect them to win more games and buy tickets when Kobe first comes to SMT. However, since the team would not acutally improve, SMT’s ticket sales would return to normal. Again, while Kobe might be worth 50 million, so were the talent he was traded for and Kobe costs more so the team would not have a long term profit due to the trade.
Interesting article and I think we're actually on the same page here
I think the key to this finding is:
Those star players who do not impact team success in a given year will have little or no effect on attendance.
Which it sounds like you’re trying to support with your Kobe/Pau winshares argument.
I agree 100% with this, thanks for linking the article. I’d also add that if you can find a way to get a star that will make a significant difference to winning with their new team, it is definitely worth it for short term and long term profitability
There are the guys who get you the need baskets," says Bulls reserve forward Brian Scalabrine, referring to the vital hoops that stop runs and close out games. "I have a different word for killers. I call them mother-------. And right now, Derrick Rose is the baddest mother------ in the league by far. He is the reason we win.
I guess this last point is redundant and kind of obvious though
haha, but one just needs to look at Jordan to really see how much a superstar can affect the long term profitability of a franchise. It’s amazing how long his effect lasted for.
There are the guys who get you the need baskets," says Bulls reserve forward Brian Scalabrine, referring to the vital hoops that stop runs and close out games. "I have a different word for killers. I call them mother-------. And right now, Derrick Rose is the baddest mother------ in the league by far. He is the reason we win.
I have two problems with applying this study to basketball
1) A single player can have a great effect in a game with 5 guys playing
2) It doesn’t account for teams being aesthetically pleasing. I’m pretty sure the warriors have good attendance despite not being a good team in part this is do to them being fun to watch
Agreed
1) a single player can have a huge effect. That huge effect would help a team win. Those wins would have an impact on demand for ticket prices. The increase in demand would make money. What I am saying is that there is no economic advantage to stardom.
If we have two players Tim Duncan and Shaq in their prime. Assume they are paid the same and are at the same skill level. Shaq is the bigger star, is more prominent in the media, and more often in the news. If they were traded for each other, there would be no long term economic impact. The extra stardom that Shaq has does not translate into more money for the Spurs than if the Spurs kept Tim Duncan.
2) This is not addressed; and I haven’t seen this addressed. I would imagine that you would compare pace or % of breakaway points or % of 3pointers taken to wins to expected revenue. However, the playing style of a team is more determined by the Coach than any single individual player and is really irrelevant to discussing the economic impact of a star player.
wait a sec...
The extra stardom that Shaq has does not translate into more money for the Spurs than if the Spurs kept Tim Duncan.
if Shaq has more “star power” then doesn’t his jersey, etc sell at a higher rate? Does that not directly benefit the team or is that general NBA money?
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
I think it's the latter (jersey sales go to the NBA)
Don’t quote me on that though
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Feb 24, 2012 11:21 PM CST up reply actions
That's apples and oranges and you know it.....
In baseball you can have one of the best players in the league and still miss the playoffs. Look at Matt Kemp and the Dodgers, he should have been MVP and his team was not very good. But in basketball, having 1 mega-star immediately puts you in the thick of the playoffs. In the East, it gives you a top 5 seed, look at Dwight and the Magic.
You don't get it
I am talking about the value of stardom, not the value of talent. This whole thing began with a discussion that Kobe is worth more on the open market because he is a star and able to draw fans. My point is that stardom has no long term value beyond on court contributions. This has been found consistent in the NBA and MLB.
Kobe Byrant is Star + Talent, while Pau Gasol is just talent. Many people beleive that Kobe is worth more because of his star power, however, evidence suggests that talent helps teams wins and wins draws a crowd, while star power does nothing in the long term.
i get u dude, but the long term effect is not what i mean
im talking about value right now. if you trade for gasol and he balls and puts u in contention, of course in the long term your gonna make more money than kobe coby coming to town and sucking in the next 2 years but that has no relevance on his trade value right now. currently kobe coby is still considered a higher drawing power so any team that wants him is gonna give up more for him b/c of the right now factor. A smart GM would trade for gasol but some Gm’s aren’t and the average fan thinks that Coby is still in the same level as Lebron/durant (he’s not)
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
This is wrong
currently kobe coby is still considered a higher drawing power so any team that wants him is gonna give up more for him b/c of the right now factor
This is my entire point and one that is backed up by research. There is no such thing as a higher drawing power. If two players have equal talent than evidence suggest that they have the same drawing power.
A smart GM would trade for gasol but some Gm’s aren’t and the average fan thinks that Coby is still in the same level as Lebron/durant (he’s not)
And this still tells me that you still do not get what I am talking about. I am not talking about relative talent.
I would have to strongly disagree with this claim
The reason the Bulls were selling out their games was not because they lacked a star, it was because they had the greatest star perhaps in the history of sports, and that carried over to the incredibly terrible Bulls teams that were fielded in the post Bulls dynasty.
JR, who is notoriously cheap when it comes to the Bulls, was quoted in interviews as saying he had no problem paying Jordan his unprecedented $30 mil because he knew he owed it to him for all the money he had made him in the past, and all the profits he would generate after he left.
There are the guys who get you the need baskets," says Bulls reserve forward Brian Scalabrine, referring to the vital hoops that stop runs and close out games. "I have a different word for killers. I call them mother-------. And right now, Derrick Rose is the baddest mother------ in the league by far. He is the reason we win.
by slowmotion on Feb 24, 2012 12:36 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
seems like a good reason to keep him and trade kobe then
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
lol, I'd say the beat writers did more than "downplay" the story:
Rose didn’t privately ask management to trade for Pau Gasol, as two media outlets reported.
This made me laugh, cause KC goes for the definitive “Rose did not” as opposed to saying “my sources say” or whatever.
The doctors thought I died. My heart stopped beating for almost a minute. I came back, and weeks later, when people asked me what I remembered, I told them: "Omer Asik".
kc has made a career
of throwing cold water on any good news about the bulls, whether winning a trade or injury reports.
nothing new.
Under construction.
by anorexorcist on Feb 23, 2012 6:45 PM CST up reply actions
in his defense he doesn't get many things wrong tho
by JustAnotherFan on Feb 23, 2012 7:24 PM CST up reply actions
True, but the price he pays for that accuracy is being a complete org schill
Can you remember the last time KC was even remotely critical of anything the Bulls did? In fact, most of the time he goes to ridiculous lengths to defend them.
The doctors thought I died. My heart stopped beating for almost a minute. I came back, and weeks later, when people asked me what I remembered, I told them: "Omer Asik".
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 23, 2012 8:14 PM CST up reply actions
Rose didn't and doesn't need to ask for that trade
If Booz for Gasol trade is on the table, do what nike says.. JUST DO IT!
We play awesome D with guys like Boozer and Korver getting minutes. Imagine how much that would improve with Gasol’s length and much better D. And the way he post up create a lot of opportunities for others.
Yep.. if this was a possibility Gar should have already agreed to it.
Rose shouldn’t have to ask for it.
by Grinder in Training on Feb 23, 2012 10:16 PM CST up reply actions
Much better D than Boozer?
I guess Laker’s fans never complain about Pau’s defense.
This space is available.
gasol will body a guy at least.
when was the last time you’ve seen booz actually get close to a guy and make real contact.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 11:53 AM CST up reply actions
They say the same thing about Pau.
This space is available.
really?
it can’t be as bad as booz. i swear i’ve seen gasol be far more physical.
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Where do you think Pau "Gasoft" comes from?
Don’t get me wrong I’d rather have Gasol than Booz but both of them are not very good defenders.
This space is available.
Because he's pasty white and from Spain and most people never actually saw him play before the trade?
by Ozzie Montana on Feb 24, 2012 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Ya, the first thing that pops into my mind when I see 7' 250 pound man from Spain is soft.
Good point.
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not everyone's as smart as you
or even close!
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 24, 2012 3:58 PM CST up reply actions
What are you talking about?
My name is Charlie Gordon and Algernon is my friend.
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by MrBungle on Feb 24, 2012 4:06 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
superb reference.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
by dantheman3k on Feb 24, 2012 10:52 PM CST up reply actions
you obviously didnt watch game 7 of the 2010 finals
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
its about time
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
When you don't understand the concept of sample size
it’s pointless to continue debating.
This space is available.
yeah because gasol has been a terrible defender his whole career right?
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
Yes, that's the general consensus around the league and
what the name Gasoft implies. But I suppose you know better.
This space is available.
Who doesn't understand sample size
Gasol is the 38th best active player in career defensive rating. Also, contrary to your repetitive “Gasoft,” nonsense (a nickname that, by the way, I’ve never heard even though I’ve heard him called soft), Gasol is not considered a poor defender and that soft crap that gets thrown at him is just the false assumption that Euros can’t play defense. Gasol is, in fact, an extremely good defender.
If there’s a sample size argument here, it’s against you. You have pretty much no idea what Pau has done for his career. Perhaps you watched him in the postseason last year because that’s the only time when calling the guy soft would be apt.
You’ve given us absolutely nothing except Pau’s height and a stupid nickname. And then attack us for not understanding sample size. I guess you think if you stuff a Hot Pocket in Vinnie Johnson’s mouth he’ll warm it up for you.
by Gentleman Jim on Feb 24, 2012 7:59 PM CST up reply actions 9 recs
hmm, thats really interesting, never knew about his defensive rating being that high
i never considered him a bad defend, but never kenw he was ranked that high.
Sin was the one who brought up one game as
an example of Pau’s good defense. If using the results of one game where Pau played good defense proves that Pau is a good defender in general then maybe they should just redo the whole field of statistics since evidently exceptions are now considered the norm.
I admire how you attempt to turn the sample size argument against me with such compelling evidence as, “You pretty much have no idea what Pau has done for his career” and then venture on with erroneous hypothetical situations. I’d say that the person who says “Gasol is, in fact, an extremely good defender” is the one who doesn’t know Pau’s game outside of some obscure defensive metric he found in B-R.
So you were able to find a site which listed Pau as the 38th best active player in career defensive rating but you were unable to find a single article criticizing his defense, interesting. If you don’t know how to navigate on over to other blogs or sources which would know Pau’s defensive game better than Sin then it is probably a waste of my time trying to convince you otherwise because it seems your mind is already set in stone. (38th Best!)
Do yourself a favor and do someone research on Pau before praising his defense. It is noble of you to stick up for Sin but unfortunately none of your arguments are convincing. Also, your Hot Pocket Vinnie Johnson analogy was lost on me. However, I am quite certain that is was pretty clever, though and rather appropriate coming from someone named Gentleman Jim.
Also, I am puzzled how “attacking” Sin equals “attack(ing) us.” I did not realize that Sin was the mouthpiece of BaB. YFFB might have something to say about that.
This space is available.
attacking us is referring to everyone else who can clearly see that gasol is a better defender than boozer by far
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
I don't recall everyone else using one game
to show that definitely Pau is good at defense but whatever. I guess it’s good to know other people have your back eh Sin?
This space is available.
people here tend to have my back when someone is spewing idioctic bullshit worse than my trolling
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
Hahahahaha
BQ. I guess you think if you stuff a Hot Pocket in Vinnie Johnson’s mouth he’ll warm it up for you.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Feb 24, 2012 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
i wouldnt put gasol in a terrible defender category either
thats going a bit too far. He has better movement than a shitty defender like booz, but unlike his brother Marc he just doesnt have solid defensive instincts. Overall, hes an average defender.
I don't have a problem with Boozers post defense
He’s just so sloooow rotating
the grousing of lakers fans isnt a very good argument.
and if their opinions really are a good indication of how things truly are, then your argument above that kobe doesnt automatically increase ticket sales by himself would obviously be wrong, since laker fans tend to be pretty zealous kobe supporters in pretty much all things.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
So you are implying that Lakers' fans aren't as familiar with Pau's defense as you are?
Good to hear. Also, the fact that Lakers’ fans are zealous about Kobe does not necessarily mean that fans of another city will be. MJ was loved all around the league. Kobe not so much. That’s why I agree with MrPants when he brings up Iverson.
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no. im saying lakers fans are morons.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
by TheMoon on Feb 25, 2012 12:12 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Also where did i state that Kobe would not increase ticket sales by himself?
Please stop with your strawmans.
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oops. i confused mrbungle and mrpants.
not for the first time either.
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
Can't say that I blame you.
With all these blogs, I don’t really know who is who here as well, except for yffb of course. But if it’s the comment has a sarcastic and mocking tone, it’s probably me.
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you're kidding right?
There’s a difference between playing bad lazy defense and just plain not knowing how to.
Gasol is a good defender. his head just isn’t in the right place right now with everything thats happening. Boozer just plain can’t defend because he just doesn’t have the physical ability or the iq. and gasol being a good 3-5 inches taller than Boozer alone makes him more valuable on defense
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
by sin on Feb 24, 2012 3:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Thanks for the lesson on defense.
I did not realize that there was a difference between natural ability and effort. Also, thanks for pointing out that a taller defender is better than a shorter one. Nothing gets by you, it would seem.
I’m sure the people at SSR will be happy to hear that you think you know more about Pau’s defense then they do as your ‘Pau is a good defender’ comment indicates. They only watch all of the Lakers games, so what would they know?
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dude i live in la and am constantly surrounded by friends who are lakers fanatics who can shout nothing but lakers love in my ears
and seeing as how lakers games are the only games i can watch on local channels without league pass id say i watch a fair amount of laker games when im bored.
yes there is a difference between natural ability (physical and basketball iq) and effort.
do you think bruce bowen was a physically gifted athlete? obviously not but you know why he was such a damn good defender for so many years? its cause he was smart and knew how to move his feet and basically make up for his lack of natural talent.
a guy like boozer who is obviously limited horizontally and vertically and cant move well needs to be smart if he wants to be a good defender and know how to get position on his man etc. but he doesnt and he honestly half the time looks like hes not even giving the effort.
melo is a prime example of a guy who SHOULD be a good defender but isnt because hes damn lazy and doesnt give any effort. the only time ive seen melo try is usually when hes playing lebron or kobe and it saddens me because as a fan of melo i see that he has the talent to play very good defense but simply doesnt want to put forth the effort.
gasol is a good defender and probably still the most skilled big man we have in the game right now. dwight is the best but id say gasol is the most skilled right now and if youre not seeing an upgrade going from boozer to gasol i dont know what to tell you. maybe you should watch some basketball sometime.
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
by sin on Feb 24, 2012 4:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
at least i dont live in miami
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
yeah, that would be a nightmare
always listening to heat fans saying norris cole 4 MVP
The comment above
[ ] Understands sarcasm.
[x] Is using the Tyrus Thomas potential = good argument.
[ ] Needed a Melo reference.
This space is available.
by MrBungle on Feb 24, 2012 4:20 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
Well, he's been our best pick-and-roll defender this year.
He shut down Howard in the ‘09 Finals, played spectacular defense in the ’10 Finals, and has defended both frontcourt positions pretty ably. Not sure where you’re getting this grousing about his defense.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
by Ben R on Feb 25, 2012 4:35 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Here a couple of examples
http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/kendrick-perkins-pau-soft-other-quotes-t128617-100.html
I believe Pau is one of the most skilled big man in the NBA currently. That said, there are some truth to what Porky said, at least to the extent that “Pau is soft on defense”. Bosh burned him for 30pts in the Miami game. Just look at the recent Mavs and/or Orlando games. When Bynum went out, the opposing Center just ate Pau alive, and the opposing guards drove to the basket at will. PJAX had to insert Bynum back late into the 4th quarter to counter those.
I am a Pau fan, but let’s be honest: He does not have the beef against strong opposing centers, nor the wingspan to twart driving quick guards. On the offensive end, there is no denying that Pau is great.
http://projects.latimes.com/lakers/player/pau-gasol/
Angry fans looking for someone to blame (particularly for a humiliating 131-92 loss in the closeout games) began questioning Gasol’s toughness, mockingly referring to him as Pau “Gasoft.”
http://www.clublakers.com/lakers-discussion/pau-gasol-becoming-expendable-t132504-80.html
Gasoft is a huge liability on the defensive end.
He folds like a cheap suit at the first hint of physical play by opposing bigs.
Dude has zero hustle, toughness, or heart.
You may believe otherwise but certainly you cannot dispute the fact that there is a segment of Lakers fans exist who question Pau’s defensive abilities. I think I would trust their opinion over some Bulls fan who only sees Pau play maybe 3-4 times a year but that’s just me.
This space is available.
Ben R is an extremely knowledgable Laker fan. He's just posting on BlogaBull today. You're dumb, Pau's a good defender. The end.
"If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way."
by fundamentallysound on Feb 25, 2012 3:03 PM CST up reply actions
LOL, okay I'm dumb and Pau's a good defender beacuse you say so.
Nice… Weren’t you the one bitching about Noah when it was obvious be was playing bad because he was out of shape, Mr. Pot? Thanks for weighing in though. Do you have any other pathos based comments you think anyone actually wants to hear?
And you are right Ben R is knowledgeable commenter which is why I actually felt the need to support my claims with some evidence. It would probably be wise of you to let him respond on his own. He doesn’t need some third rate armchair Bulls analyst wannabe speaking up for him.
This space is available.
I wasn't bitching about Noah. You must have me confused with someone else. I haven't really posted much recently. You're notoriously ignorant, though.
If I recall correctly, you’re the same guy who buys into Dave Berri’s nonsense. Pau is a good defender. If you look at regularized adjusted plus-minus, he was a +1.1 on that end so far this year, last year he was a +0.8, the year before he was a slightly below average -0.5, the year before that he was +0.6, and in his first year with the Lakers he was a +1.0. Basically he’s graded out as an above average to good defender in all but one year he was with the Lakers. Boozer, on the other hand, is a -1.9 this year on defense, last year he was a -1.7, the year before that he was a -2.0, the year before -1.9, the year before that he was a -1.8. Basically, Boozer has always been terrible on defense and he still is. You can look at those numbers to see Pau is a better defender or you can watch how well Pau hedges on pick and rolls to contest and stop penetration, versus Boozer’s matador and scream defense. But I wouldn’t expect any of that from you, because, you see, you’re a dolt.
"If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way."
by fundamentallysound on Feb 25, 2012 4:29 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
RAPM numbers from here:
http://stats-for-the-nba.appspot.com/
"If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way."
by fundamentallysound on Feb 25, 2012 4:30 PM CST up reply actions
LOL notoriously ignorant.
I’m not sure you want to get into a war of insults with me there big guy. Nice of you to insult Berri. Judging by your stellar writing and logic skills, I am quite certain you have come up with a better method to evaluate players than he has. I mean it must be hard to look up data on B-R. Why aren’t you working for ESPN yet?
It’s good to see that you put some basketball data between your ad hominem attacks. Unfortunately, your B-R data does not change the fact that many people consider Pau’s defense to be below average. As I stated before I will side with Lakers fans who have actually seen him play more than 3-4 times a year. Oh but he hedges on screens so that means he’s good. Stick with your armchair Bulls analysis, please.
BTW, dolt and notoriously ignorant are hardly effective hitting insults. I’m sure those would have been hard hitting insults in the 70s, though.
This space is available.
I'll take objective data from the full game schedule over the lamentations of biased fans with their own issues with Gasol. Plenty of Lakers fans
appreciate Pau’s defense. The ones who don’t are wrong.
"If you have a hero, look again; you have diminished yourself in some way."
by fundamentallysound on Feb 25, 2012 5:38 PM CST up reply actions
You could have said that earlier without adding the ad hominem attacks
as it quite reasonable. My point was though that even, biased Lakers fans have seen Pau play more than you have so I am not sure how you can unequivocally say that they are all wrong.
This space is available.
Uh, no offense, but a bunch of random Laker fans on a forum isn't a definitive source.
I’ll admit as much as anyone that we Laker fans have a pretty significant amount of the fanbase who are dolts, irrational, and overreact to everything (basically, your average casual fan). At SS&R and FB&G, the places I usually frequent (considering that I write for the former), we’re pretty appreciative of Pau’s defense. Putting it bluntly, he’s pretty good. He hedges really well on the P&R, has the mobility to cover guys on switches, uses his length well in the post to contest shots, and is generally solid in his help. Yeah, he gets pushed around by stronger post players, but that’s what Bynum is there for. Given that I’ve watched Pau ever since he’s come to the Lakers and seen him destroy Boozer in three consecutive playoff series on both ends, I can safely say that he’s a better player, and Pau did it without an elite point in Williams feeding him buckets after beating a stone-footed Derek Fisher off the dribble.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
by Ben R on Feb 25, 2012 6:02 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
Well, I trust your judgement on this issue but the perception is out there that Pau's defense isn't very good.
I live in LA , actually in the Orange Curtain, and I hear a lot of people complaining about Pau. A lot of them are passionate fans so I don’t think you can discount just anyone who says Pau has bad defense as an average casual fan. Your analysis is contrary to that of the person in the first source I posted. He seems to have some good points too. Is Pau a good defender because Bynum has his back or is he a good one on one defender? Is Pau defense better than Boozer? Probably. I’m just not sure the Bulls defense will that be much better than it is now.
BTW, I’ll trust the opinion of some casual fan who has seen Pau 80+games a year over some Bulls fan who has seen Pau play maybe 4 to 5 times a year, but I guess that’s just me. Even a casual fan can see when someone defense isn’t good as it is obvious when someone goes right by them. The ability to spew some meaningless statistic that may or may not measure defense does not make someone an expert on Pau’s defense.
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you sir are an idiot
cowherd has a job at espn. i suppose you respect him too. oh and skip bayless too right? shit. job at espn must mean knowledgeable
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
by sin on Feb 25, 2012 7:47 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Sin, no offense but you are the last person who should be calling someone an idiot.
Half the jokes here go over your head and your only purpose seem to be to serve as yfbb’s foil. (Not that he needs one).
This space is available.
i hope you notice everyone simulatneously calling you an idiot
seriously taking the casual lakers’ fan’s opinion and a nickname over statistical evidence to defend whether or not someone is good at defense is laughable
How I know I'm still a Bulls fan during Linsanity:
When Lin drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "GOOD SHIT KEEP DOING THAT!!!"
When Rose drives into a crowd and gets mauled: "OH SHIT I HOPE HE'S NOT HURT"
RE: Pau's D
I’m not really sure of the best place to put this comment so I’ll throw it here, I guess.
I think this whole “is Pau good on defense debate” is pretty interesting, and here’s why. I think it’s pretty conclusive that, relative to the rest of the starting PFs in the league, Pau is a very effective defender. However, I think that really says a lot more about how the PF position has changed over the past couple decades than how good Pau is.
There’s not much objective evidence supporting this claim, but it seems to me that PFs nowadays are way more offensively talented but far less defensively capable than they were about 15 years ago. It just seems that all over the league there are PFs that are extremely capable scorers but play very mediocre or worse defense (see Carlos Boozer, Kevin Love, Blake Griffin, LaMarcus Aldridge, Chris Bosh, David Lee, Luis Scola, Ryan Anderson, David West, etc.). It honestly seems like Pau is a top 10 defensive PF by default. Ditto for Dirk Nowitzki. There just aren’t many 2-way PFs anymore, which is why if you can get a big man who’s capable of both scoring and defending the paint, you’re pretty much 50% of the way there to a championship team. That’s why I refuse to write the Lakers off as a championship contender; their frontcourt is just too damn good. That’s also why if the Bulls can somehow get Gasol, they will easily win it all. I don’t think that’s gonna happen though.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I think you're 100% right about Pau
But come on man, relax. The name-calling wasn’t really called for.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I didn't say he has GOAT defense
but he’s still much better than Booz. Boozer has ok post defense but is either lazy or has no idea how to rotate. And if he does rotate, he’s not really known as a shotblocker and can’t protect the rim. Its just not about height and length, Taj is not that tall but can protect the rim
Gasol has better IQ and can protect the rim with his lenght. And about the Gasoft, I really think its a knock more on his Offense rather than on Defense. This was a few years ago where he will be guarded by smaller PF and he doesn’t attack the smaller guys. Pretty much how Booz settles for jumpshots.
Laker fans are not happy with Gasol’s D? Do you think Laker fans will be happier with Booz D?
ill just say booz does really try on D but is a low IQ player on defense
gasol on the other hand does try on D and does an alright job defending his man. I think Gasol not being able to attack as much he wants is partly due to kobe not doing a good job getting him involved plus mike brown terrible offensive scheme.
Like I said above, where is this impression that we're unhappy with Gasol's defense?
He’s arguably been the one that has bought in the most to Brown’s system of rotations and hard hedging and has been pretty solid for us. The only complaints we have about him right now is his declining efficiency in the post, as his arsenal of hooks, counters, and similar has seemingly been absent from his game for over a year. He basically just shoots fadeaways once he gets down there nowadays.
To secure ourselves against defeat lies in our own hands, but the opportunity of defeating the enemy is provided by the enemy himself. -- Sun Tzu
If only Booz is taller
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
The team doesn't have to ask Rose about player moves. He trusts them to get the best team around him, and they trust him to play his hardest.
He’s humblebot, and I think he realizes he’s out of his depth there.
Not really
Rose is the type of guy who will play with anyone. I find it hard to believe that Rose will start bitching about the FO getting him players that he can win with (like Howard). Two years ago, when the Bulls were a .500 team or even at the beggining of last season, Rose simply said he wanted to get better, play better with his teammates and questioned why he can’t be MVP, not bitching about how the Bulls are a mid tier team and need to get better players to get better. This season he said he would “roll with Keith”…its Bogans for fucks sake! That right there is what makes this kid great.
by Bullforlife on Feb 24, 2012 12:45 PM CST up reply actions
OT, but does anyone else see whats missing in this list?
http://www.82games.com/1112/CSORT11.HTM
"A household is a business given over to caring for small, temporarily insane people, a business subject to cash-flow problems, endless legal harassments, run by people who expect to have sex with each other, who occupy the same space, and who go nuts when either party has sex with anyone else. Once in marriage, a lot of people try to get out as fast as religious tradition, poverty, or devotion to children permits.""
by TheMoon on Feb 24, 2012 1:12 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
uh, yeah.
the fuck is this shit
DUNK HIS ASS
by obnoxious american on Feb 24, 2012 1:38 PM CST up reply actions
He scores 47.8 pp48 in the clutch
He must not be meeting a minimum number of minutes
Oops, that's last year
This year Rose has not been as impressive I guess
It's really not a surprise
when you realize how few close games the Bulls have been in, when Rose has been healthy. Almost every game has been a blowout.
On the topic of Rose recruiting players
In this case, with Howard, this might be the closest it gets publicly (link, emphasis mine):
“I try not to think about it because he’s not with us, but just knowing what type of player he is and how he is playing with his team right now, I think we will be pretty good if he chooses to come,” Rose said.
Stick with Boozer, he's been playing well lately.
It’s not like we are the 2007-2008 Lakers and Boozer is our Kwame Brown. Even a Boozer injured sitting on the bench cheering on his teammates is better than Kwame Brown playing a full 48.
Hahahahahahah, oh my......
"We got to win. Win no matter what. Trip, kick somebody, fight, bite. Whatever. Win." - Derrick Rose
Dman i forgot about morris,,there whole twin story at the draft as weird and cool at the same time
anybody know how they playing? Dont really watch phx games anymore
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
Marcus is in the d league
And from the handful of games ive seen, markeiff gets some decent burn. Hits an ok amount of outside shots and takes (and hits) a surprising amount of 3’s. Not really much of an inside presence at this point though.
at least its hockey season now
by comebackkirk12 on Feb 25, 2012 12:34 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
word..tnx son
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
by Belize on Feb 25, 2012 1:47 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
lol thibs brainwash cult
CHI asst Ron Adams, coach of Team Shaq, had trouble hiding his disgust with game’s defensive intensity. “It’s not quite what I’m used to.”
by trig on Feb 24, 2012 11:01 PM CST reply actions 4 recs
This was in one of Sam's mailbags. Not sure exactly what he means by "upgrade", and what the timetable is, but it's interesting:
But this is going to be just the beginning as I expect this trading deadline, much later than usual, to be active, at least in terms of rumors. And I have no doubt the Bulls will be trying to land an upgrade.
The doctors thought I died. My heart stopped beating for almost a minute. I came back, and weeks later, when people asked me what I remembered, I told them: "Omer Asik".
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 25, 2012 1:32 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
Another interesting bit from the mailbag. Apparently the front office thinks REALLY highly of Mirotic.
This was in response to a question about passing on Marshon Brooks:
Brooks was the people’s choice last spring based on the mail I received. But the Bulls are thrilled with the Mirotic pick, and I’m not sure the way they feel they’d give him up for Kyrie Irving.
The doctors thought I died. My heart stopped beating for almost a minute. I came back, and weeks later, when people asked me what I remembered, I told them: "Omer Asik".
by Juiceboxjerry on Feb 25, 2012 7:37 AM CST up reply actions
dleague all star game was pretty good
Gerald Green still got his hops too
Proud Boozer hater...umm ya, fu** that guy
by Belize on Feb 25, 2012 3:15 PM CST via mobile reply actions
I have very little patience for these contests, but...
Allan Houston was extremely impressive, and at age 41, he looks like he is in better shape than some current NBA players.
What a sweet natural shooter.
Pau for Boozer
Makes complete sense. That being said, the Lakers are not stupid…they are not going to trade Pau for Boozer straight up
Gehen wir Bears!
Allons-y Bulls!
Vamos Cubs!
Forza Blackhawks!
It makes complete sense for us, but no sense whatsoever for them
"Sleep is the brother of broke."
- Chris Douglas-Roberts
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