Perceptions of Defense and Trades
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 23, 2012 11:05 PM CST
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Print[Disclaimer: First and foremost, this is not an endorsement of any of sin's opinions. ;) This is also not meant to be revisionist history, especially in light of recent injuries. Its just a discussion about perceptions but used in the context of our Bulls. ]
Put the Bulls in an alternate universe for a minute. I promise, only a minute. I won't harp on this for the next year. Now imagine a trade for Melo had happened for Deng and Noah as had been widely speculated as what it would take to get Melo. Now I want to start off by saying I myself would not do this trade. No way I'm giving up top 3 players in the East at two positions for one top 3 player at one position.
Now, you might be asking why am I bringing this up now. Well, a debate these days around here is if Luol Deng should be in the all-star game. Now, in a perfect world where guys like Allen Iverson aren't starting when he's obviously over the hill because of fan voting, I would say you have to be top 2 in your conference at your position in order to guarantee yourself a spot (one starter, one back-up). So in the East, its no question who the starting SF is. Not even in jest can we argue this. Lebron is a superior player to Deng and Melo.
So then who really is the 2nd-best SF in the East?
Well, I'd say there is really only one thing that Melo clearly does better than Deng: score. Melo can score with the best of them and in a myriad of ways. Deng rebounds better and plays better defense. Here is the comparison to see for yourself. Some stats jump out at me. First, the FG% and TS% are similar as well as rebounding though I feel Lu has the penchant for bigger rebounding games and seems to be better at getting the tougher boards. Secondly, Win Shares clearly paints the picture with these two players: Melo is +17 in OWS, Deng is +5 on DWS. But think about that for a minute now. Let's bring it back into the context of alternate-reality Bulls. Whatever we lose on defense, Melo makes up for it on offense 3 times over. Interesting for a team who is sometimes dysfunctional on offense.
Then there is the perception of Melo as a bad defender. Can we not argue that Melo has never played in a defense-first system? Melo went from a high-paced team in Denver to a high-paced team in NY. Neither teams are organizations that preach defense first. BTW, I credit this as the biggest reason the Knicks have struggled for over a decade. They have forgotten who they are as an organization. That team's staple has always been defense during its successful days. Now, organizations that DO KNOW that they want to preach defense first, like Chicago and Miami, can be just the kind of culture an athlete of Melo's caliber may need. In my opinion, he is too good of an athlete to be totally inept on defense. I believe it to be more of a case of never having that instilled in him. You can see in this year's Bulls what being in that culture can do for a supposed mediocre defensive player, like for example, Boozer and Korver. Korver will never be great because of his lack of athleticism and Boozer in the back of his mind may still always be more preoccupied with getting in rebounding position rather than contesting a perimeter jumper, but I think most of us can agree their defense has gone up a tick this year. Miami and Chicago are teams that have preached defense first going back to the 90's.
So who is to say Melo can't make up that 5 wins on defense if he plays in such a system for an extended period of time. I think he possesses the athletic ability to be a good defender and its all a matter of perception with him. Even the numbers suggest its somewhat of a wash with them as they are pretty even in steals and blocks rate. So maybe Deng has a bigger impact as far as winning for his team. I think you can argue either way. Maybe Melo is backup to Lebron in the all-star game simply on name alone.
I would never trade Noah AND Deng for Melo. Like I said before, there is no value for the Bulls in such a scenario even if it gives the perception of consolidating talent. But ask yourself this: if Melo is the 2nd-best SF in the East, wouldn't it make sense to trade Deng for him? Wouldn't you do it? I'm not saying I would, but it definitely makes me pause a moment. Your perception of them and where this team is at and will be in a few years will give you your answer.
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I don't like the idea of pairing Melo (or Rose for that matter) with another high volume scorer
The only complete year Iverson spent in Denver ended in a first round sweep, and a defense that allowed the 2nd most points in the NBA.
by tuff-gong on Jan 23, 2012 11:30 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
yeah it sounds like a bad idea
until you watch the miami series and no one else can do that kind of ball stopping offense aka create his own shot
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
by sin on Jan 24, 2012 2:44 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
then you trade from a scorer that’s not so one dimensional…melo’s DNA is score 1st, fake pump second, go for the foul 3rd and pass to the jarred Jefferies last
I don't see a problem with that in e playoffs
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
yeah but it depends on the situation
if melo starts over gunning instead of passing the rock around, its gonna screw a team like us over because of how we are built now…i like melo and maybe he would flourish under thibs but my biggest thing is this: if melo could pan out with iverson or stat and he couldnt get into defense with Geoge Karl who is a bit like thibs, how is he gonna pan out with rose (who needs the ball) and thibs who will bench you if you dont play D…too much what if’s imo..
id still trade for melo, but i like deng for all the intangibles melo doesnt seem to have
sorry, but I've never known a Karl team to be elite on defense
i’m just not sure he preaches it as much as he does offensive pace.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 2:36 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
They just seem to be solid on defense but never elite like you said
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
one more..
"I don’t think there’s any question that our personality of trying to get ‘Melo to be a little bit more involved with how we wanted to play versus his talent, which is scoring points. There’s a value to that and I have a lot of respect for what ‘Melo can do for a team. I don’t think you’re ever going to be a bad team with ‘Melo’s personality, but you’ve gotta work around his personality a little bit. I think sometimes the team is more important than the individual. You need individual talents, you need individual skills, you need the ability to score, but we were just cheating the game so much on the defensive end of the court, cheating the game in some offensive situations that I didn’t think we were getting enough team into the game as much as we were just getting scoring into the game."
basically we are hoping thibs does the job..a big what if imo
and reading this stuff again, i just gott say: what makes him more of an asshat imo
is the fact that he tried to act like he’s the reason denver had good D…like no bro, its the fact that you had kenyon martin and other players hiding your lapses
also, I'm not sure Rose is a high volume scorer by nature
if by high volume you mean he requires a lot of shots to get his. I think this year might be a little more in line with what he wants to be: efficient and pace himself through the season and really push it come playoff time. I mean, we kinda saw that his rookie year. he felt his way out through the league in the regular season, then once the playoffs dropped, bam! 39 points.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 8:22 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Melo is a tweener
Too big for a 3 and too small for a 4. He chooses the 3 as his position and because of it he’s bad on defense. He doesn’t have the lateral speed to stay with most 3s, but he scores on them right back because he’s bigger and has a great set of iso skills.
Basically Melo will never be a good defender, weather its worth it for his offense is all an opinion.
by MartyMondays on Jan 24, 2012 1:05 AM CST via mobile reply actions
uhm melo can actually be a great defender. its all attitude with him
unlike boozer melo actually has the tools to be a fantastic defender. watch most of his games against lebron. esp like the one last year (first game after the trade) he plays very good defense when he actually tries.
i think the best i ever saw him play was in the WCF that year against the lakers.
but of course like i said with melo its definitely all about attitude. hes a good defender. just doesnt have the defensive mindset and thats what i was hoping thibs would change if melo came here
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
he doesn't play defense consistantly
Because it takes a lot of wear on your body, especially for a tweener. Deng might be injured more than Melo but its because he gives a full effort on both sides of the court.
Melo plays bad defense because he can’t play it well for the span of an entire game, plus he’s out of shape, and he’s only a good ISO player on offense. Deng is a better overall player then Melo.
by MartyMondays on Jan 24, 2012 8:08 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
this is why i always say energy in basketball should be concentrated on the defensive end
rest on offense
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 8:17 PM CST up reply actions
Or you could rest when you're on the bench
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 25, 2012 12:36 AM CST up reply actions
Which is less of an issue for Deng, I suppose
considering he probably hasn’t seen the Bulls bench in a couple of seasons.
I dont know why you keep calling him a tweener when he's not
He’s a good sf. Great combination of size speed athleticism
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
I don't know about the size stuff, Melo is definitely quick, even for a 3
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 25, 2012 12:35 AM CST up reply actions
pretty sure hes even bigger than lebron
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
Melo is not very fast
He’s so skilled on offense that it may look like it, but he gets blown by very often. He’s a bit slow and heavy for the faster 3’s in this league.
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 2:33 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
he gets blown by because he doesn't move his feet on defense cause he's a lazy fuck
Watch the first Miami ny game last year when he was traded.or the WCF against the lakers. he can guard a lebron or kobe very well when he actually puts the effort in.
he’s definitely not too slow
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
"when he actually puts the effort in."
Then why doesn’t he do so every damn night?!
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
star players have to pick and choose when to use energy
They play so many minutes that they have too. Carmelo can guard them for a couple plays but he doesn’t have the speed or stamina to guard them well for the entire game.
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 2:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
He's too fat.
Y’all seem to be be dancing around a big issue with Melo; he’s a chubby fella. He’s not gonna be able to be a two-way player for long periods of time with a body like that. You can get away with extra girth as a big, but as a SF in today’s game you’ll get exposed on the defensive end trying to guard guys with a spare tire around your waist.
win shares for just this year
Deng: O: 1.0 D: 1.3
Melo: O: 0.9 D: 0.6
by tuluse on Jan 24, 2012 1:28 AM CST reply actions 1 recs
20~ games in
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
come on honestly though
im pretty sure noah hit his ceiling last few years and looks like its going to go downhill now and injuries are going to factor in too. and deng might just be out again for significant time.
just thinking of those fourth quarters where we have taj/omer out there and we are doing better makes me angry because we could have that out there and melo out there with them to make up for their lack of offensive skills.
cant tell me
rose/rip/melo/taj/omer doesnt look better than rose/rip/deng/taj/omer
i mean which one are the heat going to have more trouble defending? the first or the second?
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
Asik is a nice fall-back to have, but I'm still not trading both for Melo
i believe it to be a net negative. but it has a lot to do with our perception (value) of that player to our team. I think as a team you lose way too much on D by trading both for Melo. that’s why only swapping out Deng for Melo looks a lot more intriguing because at that point you’d be willing to give up a little D for a huge upgrade in Melo.
my buddy asked me if I would trade Wade for Harden and Perkins. I told him the Heat aren’t trading Wade any time soon (even if I do think they will a few years down the road, if Pat Riley’s smart), but that is probably the best they can do for him. you’re not dropping off on offense too much from Wade to Harden (especially if he keeps developing) and you have a huge upgrade at center. that’s a defensive net gain for Miami. but for an organization like Chicago and Miami, defense is what thy value so the trade would make sense.
if getting Melo would’ve been a defensive gain in some way for the Bulls, they might have pulled the trigger, but as it stands now, Noah and Deng would’ve been too much D to give up for what the numbers suggest is a small offensive gain.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 7:16 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
this
plus carmelo’s sucked ass this season.
by obnoxious american on Jan 24, 2012 10:29 AM CST up reply actions
i just find it hard to believe that thibs couldn't have changed melo
Do you agree that melo could be a very good defender but just lacks the discipline? or do you believe he’s just a terrible defender period?
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
no, like I said in the post
i think it’s lack of exposure to a defense first system. he definitely has the athleticism to be a capable defender. I would even argue he’s a bit more fluid than Deng in his movements.
I think it goes both ways. who’s to say Deng was a great defender when he came into the league? but because he came to the Bulls, and organization that has always preached defense despite what coach they have, he’s really had a place to develop and cultivate his defensive skills because as a player, he knows that’s a focus of the team so he knows he must work on that part of his game.
and even then, having a mediocre defender can be masked. look at the 90’s Knicks. was Ewing an outstanding defender? I wouldn’t say so. but as an offensive player he was vital to their success even though they were a defense-first team, and that with being the anchor on defense as the center.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 12:32 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Hmm
But I can tell you that rose/rip/deng/boozer/noah is a pretty fantastic group on both ends of the floor. I can tell you that the Bulls have the best record in the NBA despite injuries. And most importantly, I can tell you this. The Bulls are number 2 in defensive efficiency and NUMBER ONE IN OFFENSIVE EFFICIENCY (that bold and caps was in case you were not reading carefully). Again, the Bulls 108.5 points per 100 possessions is number one in the NBA, despite being without Rose for several games. So, why do the Bulls need an upgrade again?
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 8:48 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
when we lose to the heat you'll see
People get blinded by stats. Statistics aren’t going to beat the heat.
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
And you get blinded by stars
How much playoff/championship experience is Melo bringing with him btw? If the bulls want advice on losing in the first round, then we can pick up melo.
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 5:53 PM CST via Android app up reply actions 4 recs
Been to the conference finals as much as rose has
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
in more than twice the number of years...
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
Noah seems back to normal the past 3-4 games.
get off your high horse. You do not need 2 superstars to out-ISO the Miami Heat. People seem to forget how close we were to winning each of those games. So much as having a real offensive system (still lacking) or having a 2 guard who can make a super quick pass (check) should, at the very least, make it a closer series, and considering how many things seemed to not go our way last year and that it was the first time we had made it that far in the playoffs, I see absolutely no truth in your arguments about needing a 2nd ball stopper to create iso shots in the playoffs.
If anything, we need a team trained to not ever need iso shots. An offensive system.
And I can tell you that I’d rather have Rose/Rip/Deng/Boozer/Noah over Rose/Rip/Melo/Taj/Omer. Those weren’t the two options you gave, but you act like Noah’s dead and Boozer’s worthless. Makes you seem like a Knicks fan.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
by dantheman3k on Jan 24, 2012 10:56 AM CST up reply actions
furthermore, why is it Noah has "hit his ceiling" but Melo hasn't?
why is Noah’s game forevermore broken yet Melo’s is “small sample size”?
at least be consistent.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
by dantheman3k on Jan 24, 2012 10:58 AM CST up reply actions
i never said melo hasn't hit his ceiling
Melo pretty much has. He’s a 25+ ppg player that can score on pretty much everyone. I have him as a better scorer than durant just cause he has more moves and cam actually post up.
This is what we need.
I still maintain the dropoff from noah to asik isn’t as big as the gain from upgrading from deng to melo
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
you're ignoring that you're saying Noah is done for good / broken but Melo isn't
why is Melo’s horrible play excused and Noah’s deemed him worthless?
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
Because it's melo
The guy sin wants to be! (Hope im wrong)
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
melo is still putting up 20-30 points a night
is noah still putting up double doubles?
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
he's had 3 in the past 6 games
and 5 of those he had double digit rebounds. in the only one he didn’t is the one we lost and he played only 22 min…
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
Noah is still putting up double doubles
Melo is scoreless thus far tonight.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
The dude is a chucker so far this year.
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 5:54 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
you need more than one guy who can create his own shot
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
We needed someone who doesn't stand in the corner every possession like Bogans does and can score
And Rip doesnt stand in one place and can score and apparently do more
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
And rip can't?
Did you watch the game last night?
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 5:55 PM CST via Android app up reply actions
Yes let's use new jersey as evidence that rip will be able destroy against Miami
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
Well, there's the fact that our offense becomes elite
when he starts, regardless of the opponent
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 25, 2012 12:43 AM CST up reply actions
Did I miss something? Our offense has been fantastic.
Injuries. Fuck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 25, 2012 5:37 AM CST up reply actions
Your forget who we're dealing with...
Seriously, im starting to miss souleater now…
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
A few things
One: WS are fine, but they are not great. Especially the defensive win shares. Example Marcus Camby is widely regarded as an amazing defensive big (because he really is). His best defensive win shares season came in 2008 where he had 5.9 DWS. Christian Laettner was not known as a staunch defender (although not poor I suppose) and yet he was able to muster up a 5.4 DWS season in 1997. He played for an amazing defensive team and benefitted from that more than anything. He was not the reason their defense was so good, but was merely a part of it. Camby on the other hand, was a big part of the reason his team’s defense was good. But let’s pretend that doesn’t convince you. On this year’s Bulls, Carlos Boozer has more DWS than Noah (plausible since he had sucked early on), Asik, Gibson, and Brewer. While Boozer’s defense has improved, I would not list him as our top defender next to Luol Deng.
Another thing about win shares, Derrick Rose had 13.1 win shares last year. Last year, Beno Udrih had 7.2 win shares. If you swapped Rose with Udrih, do you believe the Bulls would only be 6 games worse? Win Shares are nice, but they simply don’t work the way you have implied.
I don’t think Melo could make up for what Luol and Joakim bring (so yes, I agree with you). Problem 1, Melo likes to take the ball into the paint. Melo takes 1 more shot at the rim per game than Luol and is assisted on only 19% of those attempts. Luol is assisted on about half of his attempts there. This problem is further compounded by bringing Asik into the starting lineup. Noah is a poor shooter, but Asik is a nonexistent shooter. Noah requires at least a menial amount of respect on the offensive end, Asik really doesn’t. Now try running your offense with two guys that like to attack the rim off the dribble and the lane more clogged than before.
Problem 2, defense is an issue. It’s been said before: this is more than just a defensive system, it’s a belief system, it’s a life style. Melo would take time to come from systems with little to no defense, to embracing a system predicated on defense.
Problem 3, at this point, Melo does not appear to be a huge upgrade over Deng on the offensive side. Melo is really struggling this year. <52% TS this year from Melo. Could it be the system D’Antoni has in place, certainly. Could he come in here and turn it around, yes. But when you are certainly losing out on a bunch of defense (from two players), you better be sure that the offense is a massive upgrade. Career wise, it is no contest. But this year, Melo has looked very poor.
I like a lot of what you're saying, but I think you're miscalculating the DWS
if you swap out Rose with Udrih, you aren’t 6 games worse because you haven’t taken into account their offensive WS, so obviously it makes your argument stand out more.
in that regard, I would suppose looking at total WS is better to try and determine if a player is a net gain for the team. if Deng and Melo are close in that regard, then wouldn’t it make sense to have the more versatile offensive player? plus the Bulls are a team that can absorb that because of their depth. it’s quite opposite of what the Heat did. they assembled their big 3 and then have to try and develop depth on their roster. the Bulls are in the unique position where they have the deepest roster in the league, have assets and flexibility that they can make a move for a guy like Melo and really not lose much in terms of long-term success for the team.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 9:07 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
In case I was unclear
I was using total win shares in the second paragraph. Win shares are a very flawed metric.
Also
Again, I believe DWS are very flawed. Boozer leads the Bulls in DWS with Luol Deng. Part of it may be that he gets the easier matchup, but no way should he be leading the team. I disagree with using Win Shares as an evaluative tool.
admittedly, I'm still trying to get a clear handle on some of the metrics
to me it seems WS is similar to WAR (wins above replacement) in that its a fair judge of overall impact on team success. so I won’t disagree completely. either way, according to the stats, they’re even in Ortg and Melo is behind 4 points in Drtg. so what would it take to get Melo to make up that difference? I think it’s possible.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 10:34 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
Ya, but even DRtg is not helpful
Example – List these players in order of their defensive ability: Carlos Boozer, Josh Smith, Tyson Chandler
I’d say in order from worst to best I’d go: Boozer, Chandler, Smith but I could be wrong on the last two. Bottom line, I believe Boozer is a far inferior defender to both Chandler and Smith. And yet, here they are in order of DRtg from worst to best Chandler (100), Smith (100), Boozer (93). So, according DRtg, Boozer is a much better defender than both Chandler and Smith. Heck, Boozer is almost better than Dwight Howard (92). DRtg is so tied into the team concept, it can be very difficult to tell who is a good defender from this metric.
Look at the Bulls. Putting them in order of DRtg, Boozer and Scal are better defenders than Deng and Brewer. Matchups are important too. Boozer gets the easiest matchup in the post more often then not whereas guys like Rose, Brewer, and Deng get stuck on whoever their matchup happens to be. Rose got stuck guarding DWill last night whereas Ronnie got to guard, I honestly don’t remember who but someone far inferior to DWill.
I am not trying to put you down for trying to use metrics. They are great things. I just don’t think these will do a good job of looking at defense.
Boozer has played every game
thats why he leads in d win shares.
"Sportsmanship is just loser talk for losing."
by boyonthedock on Jan 25, 2012 6:11 AM CST up reply actions
wait a few years
Now try running your offense with two guys that like to attack the rim off the dribble and the lane more clogged than before.
…and add a stretch 4 like…say…Mirotic?
Of course by then Melo may be washed up, but anyway, I guess my point is a player like him would be better suited for a team with bigs that can draw their man away from the paint a bit more.
"Shame he’s such a goofy fuckface."
-JBJ, referring to Dwight Howard
Also, I posted it above, but it bears noting again
The Bulls are currently number two in defensive efficiency, and number one in offensive efficiency. So, why do the Bulls need an upgrade?
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 8:50 AM CST reply actions 2 recs
because we haven't played the heat yet
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
The Bulls have barely played anybody
Rip Hamilton alone doesn’t change a bad offensive team to a good one. The Bulls rating is a function of who they haven’t played so far.
Melo is a fantastic offensive player (actually, fantastic player period) and I doubt the Bulls will be able to beat the Heat without pairing Rose with someone like Melo.
by hitlesswonder on Jan 24, 2012 12:23 PM CST up reply actions
They were never a bad offensive team.
They were a good one while Miami was elite. Adding Rip shortens the gap.
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 24, 2012 12:50 PM CST up reply actions
How do you know that?
Rip Hamilton alone doesn’t change a bad offensive team to a good one.
And to echo Ozzie, the Bulls didn’t go from bad to elite, they went from good to elite this season. Now, when you actually look at the gap in offensive production between Rip and Bogans, you should be able to see that it’s huge. The Bulls went from a guy who stands in the corner and shoots a three every once in a while to a guy that can score in the 20’s on any given night. Not only that, the nature of his play is such that he draws extra defenders coming off of screens and his excellent vision gets our limited bigs a lot of easy baskets. His scoring alone is a huge upgrade over Keith, but his passing really is changing things up for the offense.
by dakoose on Jan 24, 2012 1:35 PM CST up reply actions 4 recs
We were 12th in the league last year and very close to 10th.
http://espn.go.com/nba/hollinger/teamstats/_/year/2011
We were already above average and we made a huge upgrade in rip vs bogans. We also have improved playmaking from rose. With those upgrades its not hard to believe that the bulls can make the jump from good to great on offense.
by RoseTyrusMancrush on Jan 24, 2012 5:22 PM CST up reply actions
I would trade Deng and Noah for Melo in a heartbeat
Too often (like when he sits in 4th quarters), Noah’s contract looks like an albatross. And Melo is a more talented player than Deng IMO — just as good on the boards, much better passer and can create his own shot.
It doesn’t matter because it will never happen, but lets not pretend Deng is better than Melo because the Bulls are winning and NY is not.
No
Melo is not a much better passer. Luol and Carmelo’s assist rates are nearly identical, but Luol’s TOV% is much lower. The difference in TOV% is b/c Luol is not the main focal point of the other team’s defense, although being doubled should open up more opportunities for Melo to pass. Melo is the better offensive player. Deng is the better defensive player. IMO, the downgrade from Noah to Asik (some offensive ability to nearly no offensive ability) is not worth it.
And finally, as was stressed in Sonty’s post and what I have said several times today, THE BULLS ARE NUMBER 1 IN OFFENSE AND NUMBER 2 IN DEFENSE! Why is it that trades are even being discussed?
by DRoseO1 on Jan 24, 2012 1:51 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Haven't played the heat
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
again, this isn't a trade discussion, just to clarify
its more an argument of who is better but put in the context of them playing for the Bulls.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 3:11 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Deng and Noah for melo
Hell no, that’s more than half our D right there
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
our d is deng taj asik
i have yet to see noah really play up to the contract we gave him this year
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
so much for the moratorium in the melo talk
Besides, Taj and Asik can’t catch a damn cold, no way Asik would be our starter now. he fouls too much
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
All kidding aside and I'll end the bit here
But do people really not agree that melo has all the tools to be a great defender and that with him it’s all about attitude?
Cause if so is it really that hard to believe he wouldn’t have improved or changed under thibs?
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
This is his ninth year in the league.
It’s been ages since he’s been in proper shape and I never remember him looking like a defensive stopper. A real drive to improve, play defense, win, etc comes from within. Sure, it’s possible that Thibs can inspire him and teach him things that nobody else has, but at this point you need to assume that Melo is what he is.
And before you compare him to Rose and say “Just like Rose became a good defender under Thibs, so can Melo,” realize that Melo played under a real NBA coach for a long time and had ample opportunity to improve in that aspect of his game; Rose was stuck with a bumbling coach who knew nothing but thrust.
by dakoose on Jan 24, 2012 2:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I do have to emphasize, though...
a real NBA coach who doesn’t preach defense.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 3:12 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Since when does George Karl not preach defense
he isn’t as insane about it like Thibs, but he has coached good defensive teams and he has shown he appreciates good defensive players.
by Basketball Smurf on Jan 25, 2012 9:08 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
People seem to assume if you play at a fast pace you don't care about defense.
by Ozzie Montana on Jan 25, 2012 12:57 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Nuggets were in top 10 in Drtg 3 of his first 5 years (though the first season he came in midseason)
then, it went downhill after that, lending some credence to what people have stated above about him maybe not coaching it as much after a while.
and now looking at the stats, his Sonics teams always ranked in top 10 in Drtg and Opp PPG. that actually kind of surprises me. so i will take back what i said about him.
who knows? maybe Melo told him to ease up after a while. LOL
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 28, 2012 8:37 PM CST up reply actions
I agree with you that Melo has the tools to improve defensively.
And again, I agree with you that it is mindset/attitude. But there is more evidence to suggest that he won’t put the effort in than there is to suggest he will. You cited the Conference Finals matches in which he played his best defensively. That’s more condemning than redeeming in my eyes. He was on a great team for a long in Denver, with a great coach in Karl. If it took getting to the WCF for him to play 100%, then he’s not a fit for us.
For me though I'd rather have the great player who will play big when we are deep in the playoffs
Than have the guy who will play just good all year long
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
bottom line
Melo would stunt Rose’s growth as a player, Melo has never had success in the playoffs even on a loaded Denver team, Melo doesn’t play defense, Melo has a huge contract, Melo would kill our ball movement (our best offensive weapon), Thibs would probably bench him in some 4th quarters, Melo would not handle that line a pro, and we would have issues.
Why should a team that’s first place in the NBA trade 2 of its core pieces for a guy who’s proven nothing more than he can get a lot of points if you let him shoot all game long and make a couple buzzer beaters in the regular season. No thank you lol.
by MartyMondays on Jan 24, 2012 8:17 PM CST via mobile reply actions 1 recs
the funny thing is
all this talk was at its peak right before the start of last season, before this team became what it is now. it makes the choice of passing on him (if it were ever a possibility) much easier to accept.
by BULLieving in Miami on Jan 24, 2012 8:21 PM CST up reply actions
Melo has been as far as rose has in the playoffs
I don’t why people are so quick to dismiss players, not just melo, for not having many deep playoff runs and then act like rose has a ring already or something
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
We had first place last year too. And the cavs as well two years before us
Guess what. Seeding and shit in the regular season doesn’t mean you have the best team and don’t have issues you need to address.
Everyone keeps talking about stats and shit and how we are ranked so high in everything but guess what that’s all pointless once playoffs roll around as we saw last year and with the cavs
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
don't even mention the bulls with those cavs teams
It’s a shitty comparison because those teams were extremely flawed. We have depth and the most balanced starting 5 in the NBA. Give this team another run before you judge them, getting as far as we did last year was new to everyone. This year will be different.
Anyways Melo is well into his NBA career he’s just one of those players you don’t win championships with.
by MartyMondays on Jan 24, 2012 9:50 PM CST via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Those cavs are the Magic
Except with bron instead of dwight…3 pt shooting not much else
"Violence is not always the answer."
"Violence is the question, and the answers always YES!"
Yes.
We are not Bron Bron’s Cavs, Howard’s Magic from a few years ago, or even going further back into the comparison time machine, AI’s 76ers, where you had such a gross disparity in the top tier star and then the cast around them that it was only a matter of time before the wheels came off the wagon and the huge gaping flaws in their balance and talent were exposed by a complete team (with, yes, more talent).
We’re much more like the Spurs and Pistons teams that were around in the early 2000s, where you had a far more balanced approach but still with some above average talent if not necessarily All-Time or even HoF greats at each position (Timmy D in SA is probably the one for sure legit HoFer in the group, but he other than being rock-solid consistent at being a 20-10 guy year-in, year out, doesn’t exactly blow you out of the water with his game).
Of course people will point out that those Spurs and Pistons were never “dynastic” really, in the sense the Bulls were in the 90’s, when it came to championships; Detroit won one, lost one( to the Spurs), went to ECF a bunch of times in row. The Spurs won four over from 1999-2007, but alternated chips with epic collapses and age and injuries have caught up with them recently over the years.
So I doubt these Bulls will be much different unless we find that truly dominant second player who can go with Rose and push us into Jordan-Pippen-Rodman Era -levels of domination. But I’ll take them as is for now, because other than a Dwight Howard who seems to have no desire to be here now…I just don’t see that other guy out there.
So basically…fuck it. I’m riding this rollercoaster we’re on now until the wheels fall off I guess.
"Left hand, right hand it doesn't matter, I'm amphibious."
- Charles Shackleford
by Locust_Inferno_666 on Jan 25, 2012 3:07 AM CST up reply actions
our team is extremely flawed. name me one championship team with only one guy who could create his own shot
Im comparing us to the cavs in the sense that we are a regular season team but not a playoff team. im not comparing talent from the two teams just saying like the cavs we are built in a way that we will dominate the regular season but in the playoffs when pace changes and teams can focus on you and study your offense you need guys who can break down defenses and create offense.
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
How about last year's Mavericks?
Dirk was the only guy out there getting his own shot all the time. Terry can do it a little bit, but so can Rip. The Mavs, like the Bulls, only had that one guy who you really trusted in isolation situations.
by dakoose on Jan 25, 2012 2:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
yeah terry can only create a jumpshot
He’s about a Deng skill level of making his own shot
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 2:54 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
You're kidding
Terry can get a shot off and create against most people. Deng has problem just dribbling
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
Yeah, he can dribble penetrate,
but Booz can get his own shot a little bit too. My major point here is that Dallas only had one of those guys.
Barea Terry both create more than anyone on our team
You can’t trust luol or booz to iso and create a shot on their own out of nothing. Mavs had Terry and dirk
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
the Mavs last year
And if you want to consider Barea the 2nd creator than Rip more than qualifies as one.
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 2:53 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
Terry was the other and he's a lot better than rip at creating a shot
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
no hes not
And I’m not even going to argue that
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 4:15 PM CST via mobile up reply actions
yes he is
By popular demand I am putting a moratorium on the Melo talk until the Knicks win the title in June.
no he's not
jk I’m not gonna do that, can we just handshake and agree to disagree?
by MartyMondays on Jan 25, 2012 10:11 PM CST up reply actions
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