What went right, but still needs work: The importance of Rose, development of bigs, SG help
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2011 9:50 AM CDT
Email
PrintA couple of links I had leftover from the weekend that I wanted to give attention to.
Bulls Confidential had a post on some things we learned and what went right with the roster this season. There's the development of Taj Gibson and Omer Asik, the resurgence (in a way) of Luol Deng, among others. But his first point, the ascension of Rose, is of most importance and it's spelled out very well:
Derrick Rose proved he is a franchise player This should not be minimized. Derrick Rose is a top five player in the NBA, and the Bulls will never be more than one player away while he's on the team (granted that one player might be another superstar, but still).
Without this step, the Bulls would have had no chance to win a title, and Derrick has been so good for so long, that it's difficult to remember that going into this season it was hardly a given.
Mike Prada from SBNation had a nice post-playoffs look at what the Bulls need to improve on in both strategy as well as roster construction. There's a lot of ideas that have been commonly pointed out here, it's worth checking out. The general takeaway is interesting as well:
As currently constructed, the Bulls are pretty much as good as they get. This team overachieved so thoroughly to win 62 games, and management can't expect that to happen again without some changes to the roster. We think of the Bulls as a young team, but whereas the Thunder have four core players under the age of 22, the Bulls will have just one player under the age of 25 next season: Derrick Rose. There is no waiting around for this team to "learn how to win" in the playoffs. If the Bulls want to win a title, they can't continue to play the "chemistry" and "flexibility" card. The 2011 Eastern Conference Finals proves that can only take you so far.
That puts a lot of pressure on general manager Gar Forman. The culture that he helped foster with his moves in the summer of 2010 played a huge role in the Bulls' rise, but if taken too far, it can also stunt it. Now that the Bulls have a foundation, Forman must find that X-factor that can spice things up and push the team to a new level. It will be his toughest challenge yet.
These ideas could be initially seen as somewhat contradictory, but I'm not so sure of that. Without Rose being this good at this age, everything would be immensely harder. But even in this current position the Bulls are in it's still only a chance to be a title contender, not a guarantee, and the Bulls should take full advantage of what is a pretty rare situation in the league.
As we head into the offseason, the potentially new rules of a re-signed CBA loom large over nearly everything (though for sanity's sake maybe we can assume the general 'soft-cap with exceptions' model will exist?), but there is potentially a lot of work to be done. Whether it is tinkering with many roles, or consolidating for a huge talent upgrade, offensive improvement is paramount for this team going forward.
Other links + know your fanposts/fanshots:
- Relatively new NBA blog 'Chasing 23' (I should loan them my logo? Never liked that damned '23' there) has another offseason wishlist for the Bulls.
- From an entertainment standpoint (and somewhat basketball-related too), my favorite trade idea thus far: Getting Ben Gordon back. Even Piston Powered is intrigued.
- Least-entertaining idea: getting Kirk Hinrich back.
- Not sure what this Monta Ellis rumor even is. I can't figure much more behind just the report that Monta may be available, and looking at the Bulls needs...as opposed to anyone actually hearing the Bulls have interest.
111 comments
|
0 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
I don't agree that the team is as good as they can get.
Most of the players and the coach came to the team this year. Because of injuries, Noah and Boozer didn’t really play together until the playoffs, and even then both of them many have been suffering from lingering injuries (thumb, toe). Noah, Asik, and Gibson can still get better. Most of all, Rose is only 22, we know he’s a hard worker in the off season, and he can get much, much better. And if “all” they do next year is win another 62 games, that should give them another chance to play in the Eastern Conference Finals, and they will have all season to figure out what to do differently. Plus, this time they won’t be happy to be there — they’ll expect to be there and want to take the next step.
All of this may not help if Miami also gets better — and unfortunately, Miami also has room for growth, mostly by getting healthy and perhaps adding some roll players who will take a lower salary to get a championship. But Miami does not have anyone with the same potential for growth as Rose, so the Bulls have that going for them. Furthermore, they have some players with a history of injury — particularly Wade, and they cannot afford to lose him or have him play at diminished capacity.
Still, as much as I would like to see a genuine starting two guard, or trade for a star like Howard (or Paul or Williams? Could Rose shift to 2-guard?), I do not think the Bulls need to panic and trade just for the sake of change.
can we count on Noah and Boozer to be healthy for full seasons?
There are other circumstances that helped get to that 62 wins. Maybe the central division improves? ok, maybe not. But I’m also wary of coach fatigue, the ‘every next game is the most important game’ mindset is tough to sustain.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2011 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions
We can't count on Noah and Boozer to be healthy for full seasons, but I'm not sure it matters.
I think the longer this team stays intact the more they will improve.
There was a pretty interesting quote from Doc Rivers about the Perkins/Green trade. Basically he thought the hardest part was that the new players didn’t know the system. He mentioned how with Perkins Rondo would be able to call a play from three seasons beforehand and everyone would be on the same page, but once Green got there the playbook essentially became only what Green was able to pick up.
So even if Boozer and Noah continue to suffer injuries, I think this team can still learn each others’ tendencies better, which will help with execution. I’d be interested to see how well Deron Williams and Boozer ran the PnR their first season together, and compare to how that changed over time.
Chemistry was a huge boon to this Bulls squad, but I’m not convinced that the on court chemistry was at such a level that only individual improvements will make the team better.
That's an argument not to be hasty to bring in new players.
Continuity counts for something. Sure, there are exceptions, but change for the sake of change is not wise.
No matter how good Rose and Booz get together,
Booz will still be broken come playoff time. This team needs a talent and skill upgrade, not a chemistry upgrade. Some will come from within, but some needs to come from outside sources.
Yeah, I don't think we can upgrade enough from within...
Gibson, Asik, Noah, Deng, Brewer, and Rose could continue to get better. I think there’s still a lot that Gibson, Noah, and Deng can do to improve as players. But those guys (along with Asik and Brewer) all have too many offensive deficiencies to improve enough for a championship without some substantial good fortune.
I think that piece is going to have to come externally. Given our draft position, I don’t think it’ll come via the draft. And given our payroll, I will be surprised if it comes via free agency.
I didn’t think we’d be nearly as good as we were this year (mainly because Rose made a bigger jump than I expected). But it’s going to be tricky to make the next step.
To me the question is how do you improve without giving up the core
of the team. I’d pick four or five guys – Rose, Deng, Noah, Boozer and Taj or Asik and say – “we aren’t going to trade these guys unless its for a dramatic upgrade.” And than I would wheel and deal how ever much you can to improve the rest of the team. Take some risks. I don’t see any reason to be wedded to Brewer, Korver, Watson or the draft picks. Going forward, the Bulls probably won’t be able to afford Asik/Taj/Noah/Boozer so if you can, work out a deal to move 1 of them and improve your guard situation. I don’t think we want to change the identity of the team, but there is a lot of room for improvements amongst the 2nd tier of guys.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 2, 2011 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
Any Bulls trade needs to involve the frontcourt, draft picks and Brewer or Kyle.
I’d say the only two guys I’d really be hesitant to trade are Lu and Derrick. Everyone else can go. The defense managed to still be awesome when Joakim was sitting or injured. The Bulls did very well in the playoffs for the stretches Booz was on the bench. The frontcourt is deep and the Bulls can afford to lose a guy or two from there.
the defense somehow managed to still be awesome because kurt thomas is still awesome
nothing lasts forever, though.
1) trade from the frontcourt for a small, “shot creator”.
2) lean on booz.
3) lose to heat.
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
They weren't healthy this season and they still made it to 62.
I don’t think they’ll tune out Thibs in the second year. Okay, maybe Boozer will, but not the rest.
so what your saying is, if everyone stays healthy we can go 73-9?
just kidding. I don’t think they’ll tune Thibs out because I don’t think he is a douchebag like Skiles. To use a general work example: Thibs just seems like the type you can call on your day off and bug him with a work question and he’ll answer it no prob, where as Skiles always seemed like the type that would dodge your calls if he was out and about and be a total asshole with “his” work rules that he probably didn’t follow himself.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 2, 2011 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
If everyone improves and stays healthy and Boozer recovers from what ails him
the Bulls could approach 70 wins — but that won’t happen. Nobody stays healthy all season — ask the Spurs about that. And any way, if Miami is completely healthy all season they could approach 75 wins.
The Bulls are actually built for the regular season, though. They are deep and they play hard all the time. Their problem is the playoffs, and to go all the way they may need another superstar. Where they will get one I don’t know.
It's possible
that Noah could turn into a superstar. He seemed heading that direction at the beginning of this season, before his injury.
Superstar?
Can he even make an All-Star game?
by dakoose on Jun 2, 2011 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Had the injury not occurred
Noah would have been a lock for the All-star team. He was the second best center in the NBA in Oct/November (averaging 15 & 15). For the regular season he averaged a double-double in 3 of the 6 months, being one and point and one rebound away in every month except April.
Though, I too doubt he will become a superstar, simply because I don’t think he’ll ever produce enough offense to be gameplanned around.
Early in the season he had his shot going
and between that and putbacks he was averaging a respectable amount of scoring. He is left so completely wide open, if he can just develop a consistent 15-footer he could score a lot. And then if they guard him he’s a good passer. He’ll never be Nowitzki (who is?) but maybe he could become a 20-10 man. Or maybe a 15-15 man.
no way he could average 20-10
He doesn’t have the size, post game, or range for that, and he isn’t going to get any of those things anytime soon.
I’d say his peak potential would be 12/15 but I’d be satisfied with 10-14. Noah is never going to be a stat stuffer, and that will cost him star status. It will be ring or bust for him.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
Not a chance.
I’d be (very!) happy for 15 & 12 from him.
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 3, 2011 10:52 PM CDT up reply actions
There's zero chance that Joakim turns into a superstar.
And he’s not the second best center in the East. It’s Al Horford and then Brook Lopez, with Joakim possibly being better than the latter. Horford’s a threat to score and also is a very good passer(3.5 APG).
Jo might make an ASG or two, especially if Dwight heats the WC, but he’s no superstar (or star), and thats just how it is.
Disagree
I don’t think Al Horford is a center, rather a power forward playing the center position (a la Pau Gasol), but the dude is a very good player.
I more vehemently disagree with Lopez being better than Noah. Sure he can score, but he is far worse as a passer, defensively and on the boards. With the defense and rebounding being the things centers get paid to do.
BTW
As stated previously, I also agree Noah will never be a superstar. Though, there is only one superstar center in the NBA (Howard), after him there is Bynum and a whole lot of nothing. I fully believe Noah can become the one of the best non-Howard centers.
Brook Lopez?
Noah is clearly, clearly better than him.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jun 2, 2011 7:45 PM CDT up reply actions
I said Noah is possibly better,
but only in the right situation. I could see why someone would like a center that could score in bunches.
Noah is better than Brook Lopez
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
He's also a better total player than Horford.
Horford has one edge, and thats his shooting
I get clients down to 5% body fat with ease you fucking idiot. - dakoose
Horford is better, sorry.
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 3, 2011 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Aww, I'm sure he accepts your apology.
Don’t feel bad. :)
How does one practice consistency? Take lots of Benefiber?
by WearShades on May 31, 2011 6:37 AM PDT
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jun 3, 2011 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Fine, but he has a pretty big edge there
Name one area where Noah has a significant edge over Horford.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Actually, I take that back
Noah’s a way better offensive rebounder and shotblocker. Horford’s not as good as I thought in those two areas.
Pat Riley is the devil.
defense
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I'd say they're both at about the same level defensively.
Noah’s a better PnR and help defender because he’s rangier, but Horford’s a better post defender.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Noah's better because he's able to do a wider range of things on D
the only area where Horford beats him is, like you said, post D.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jun 5, 2011 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
Noah's definitely a more talented and versatile defender
But for most of this season, he just wasn’t the superstud defender that everyone makes him out to be. He’s a good help defender, but not a great one (Asik is an example of what I’d call a great help defender) and while he’s probably the best big men in the league when it comes to guarding perimeter players, he’s pretty mediocre when guarding legitimate scoring big men 1-on-1. He has the potential to be much better when he learns a little more discipline (he really needs to stop biting on shot fakes), but right now he’s really just a solidly above-average defender .
Pat Riley is the devil.
I think he being a mediocre on scoring big men has more to do with him being so undersized. His has the drive, aggression, and technique to do it…..but it comes down to the fact that he is only 232 lbs which is incredibly light in the ass for a center. He needs hit the weight room like its Kim Kardashian in the offseason.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
Well that 232 is his weight from when he came into the league, no?
He’s gotten a lot bigger since then. But yeah, he definitely should continue to bulk up.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I don't buy that first paragraph from Prada
Maybe the tone is harsher than he intends, but with this “only one player under the age of 25” line it’s like he’s saying we’re on the down-slope of our title contention. We’re also not “learning how to win in the playoffs”— we’ve had one season as presently constructed, and as he notes, we got about as much out of it as we possibly could. Coming off a tough ECF loss is pretty much exactly where this team should be.
I think overall his point is that the Bulls can’t simply sit back and hope to improve enough to beat the Heat, which I agree with, but unlike him, I absolutely believe the Bulls can afford to be patient. We don’t need to dump Boozer for expirings, or trade Noah for a playmaker. I think the Bulls should try to use the smaller assets they have (draft picks, Taj, Asik), keep a close eye on how Denver handles free agency, and only jump at a core-altering trade if it’s a no-brainer.
This team might not be as young as the Thunder, but I think they’re closer to a championship, and it’s a desperation to get over the hump that killed Orlando. Just being a contender is fucking awesome, and expecting more than that is dangerous.
I tend to agree.
The “only one player under the age of 25” line is one of those cherry picked facts. When a half dozen of your rotation players are 25/26 and your one player under 25 is your best player and leauge MVP your window for winning a championship isn’t exactly closing. The Bulls best shot at winning a championship may very well be 2 to 3 seasons from now.
The Bulls should be patient, which is thankfully one of their strengths. GM’s screw their teams up trying to chase a championship more often than they make them better in my opinion.
I agree, to an extent.
This is pretty much what yfBB was clamoring for the first two years of Rose’s career: let’s go for one championship now, and if it doesn’t work, blow it up and rebuild post age-28 or whatever. It might not be a “perfect” title contender, but it’s a contender nonetheless. They sorta did that with Paul Pierce in Boston. Granted his teams in the early 00’s weren’t near as good as this one already is, but, even though it’s a looooong time to look ahead for fans, it’s not impossible.
While I do think picking the age is meaningless, I don’t think at least pointing out that most of the “core” is entering their prime right now is a bad thing. I think it’s pretty obvious that guys such as Brewer, Deng, Noah, Gibson, and Watson don’t have a ton of growth potential in them (and especially Boozer and Korver). Compare that to guys like Ibaka, Westbrook, and Harden, and maybe Durant, not to mention guys like Cook or Maynor have much more potential. Then they have Perkins, Sefolosha (and maybe Nate Robinson?) at the beginning of their prime. Nick Collison is their Kyle Korver?
The writer did it poorly, but I don’t think it’s wrong to point out that the two young teams that made it to the Conference Finals are in very different places in their development arc.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I think Noah could improve a lot
He showed signs of that earlier in the year, with his mid range shot going in from time to time and his baby hook working pretty well.
Deng can continue to improve as a shooter, which is really all we need him to do.
okc has a problem (or two)
perkins can’t run with those 22 year olds. they might’ve been better served by not getting return authorization on tyson chandler, mr genius presti.
durant is a 4 year vet who’s not strong enough to get offensive position against determined defense.
westbrook has three years as starting point guard and still plays more like a shooting guard.
yeah, they’re greatly promising. and they’ll be near the top for the foreseeable future. but let’s not call them champions yet.
the bulls should be conference finals material too, just as currently comprised.
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
Im warming up to the idea of trading for Monta ellis
I believe they would want Luol and I would be willing to give that up as much as I have come to appreciate Luol. the only way I would give up Luol though is if they were willing to give us back Monta and Dorrel wright in return and we throw somebody else in or maybe even some draft picks. Dorrel would be key fo me though because he is not a bad defender,plus he is a better shooter than Luol is, so he would be able to spread the court more. Rose and monta would be dynamic, you wont be able to stop both and plus Monta ellis plays the passing lanes much much better than Rose and quiet as kept is a pretty good defender. The only thing catch in my opinion would be the size and therefore the bulls would have to make a bold move and probably use boozer as a sixth man of the bench because he would be the ultimate liability protecting the paint with two guys around 6’3" in the lineup, so therefore; we might have to start Taj. I was also thinking about a starting lineup with Omer and Noah in the frontcourt but that maybe too radical.
while I think a Ellis+Wright for Deng is highly doubtful
overall I think it would be one step forward, two steps back for the Bulls. Everything that the Bulls would gain in offensive would be traded out for defense, and if I may use Boozer as a loose example, when Boozer has an off scoring night, he is useless, likewise, if Ellis takes a night off, it would be disastrous for the Bulls.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 2, 2011 12:21 PM CDT up reply actions
What are you talking about?
First off boozer can score, Monta ellis is a scorer so unlike boozer there are not gonna be any nights where he is off. monta is not a bad defender, he is actually pretty good and he plays the passing lanes, if i’m not mistaken he is at the top of the league in steals, so you talking about him be worthless when having a bad night offensively is foolish. I also believe wright would be able to make alot of the plays Luol made defensively because he is a good defender and more athletic than deng. those two guys would provide more easy basket and I maybe in the minority but I dont think the bulls would lose much( if anything at all) defensively replacing deng with wright. I just think adding those two guys would provide explosiveness to our offense, so even if we do take a minor stepback in our defense which I dont think we will, We’ll be more than capable of making up for it with our offense. It would not put so much pressure on the defense to come up with stops because you cant keep up offensively.
this sounds like the knicks logic when they got amare and melo
screw what we lose on defense..CHEK OUT OUR OFFENSE…and amare, he can block shots….thats defense!!!!!
I wont even discuss ellis, although i will say that i believe bg7 is better than ellis on BOTH ends of the court……
As for wright, hes a role player, hes nowhere near as good as deng on offense and though he may be more explosive than deng, dengs length and winspan, matched with his lateral quickness…i think thats far more valuable defensively.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
You a fool if you think gordon is better than Monta Ellis
Yall dont know what yall are talking about, Gordon is a better shooter but Ellis is a much better scorer and plays way better defense than Gordon and he is a better defender than Rose. First of alI I acknowledge Luol is better than Wright but I think he would be a better fit. He is a better shooter, he is not a bad defender at all, thats why he stuck around the league as long as he did. He is 6’9" just like luol and much more athletic, I think his potential defense in thibs system would be great. He is a better shot blocker than deng and plays the passing lanes better, Luol is probably a slightly better On ball defender than wright. I just think the bulls need to add guys who are active defensively. these two guys can cause more havoc defensively than deng. I dont think the bulls would miss luol defense because of thibs systems.
I think it is vital to have a good on-ball defender like Deng
Look at the play-offs, Deng was matched up against Granger, Johnson, and James (all 20 point scorers [though, joe johnson averaged 18.2 this year]). Other eastern teams have Paul Pierce and Carmelo Anthony. We will need a great on-ball defender to take away the outside shot and force these perimeter players towards are bigs.
are you mr. t?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I agree w your assessment. Bulls need additional play makers.
It’s not rocket science. Experts have been calling the Bulls an one-man offensive army all season. A good Defense can only get you to the playoffs. Add two or more playmakers to the mix and you are a serious contender. Bulls management (GarPaxDorf) knew this before trade deadline. They’re just f#cking cheap and greedy. Always has been, even during MJ time with team. Fill the stands as cheaply as possible. Screw the fans. It’s unlikely given his demeanor, but Rose will have to demand help from Reinsdorf. IMO.
Rose " Mr. Reinsdorf if anything ,u need to spend some money. Where... you get me some help. Because if anything, these will be some hard days if u don't.
JR " derrick that’s crazy"
by #1humblebot on Jun 2, 2011 1:32 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
thibs"we just gotta clean some things up, go step by step, play better on the defensive end..
Oh and make sure no one sees the pictures that keith bogans has of me at that orgy.
by #1humblebot on Jun 2, 2011 1:40 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions 3 recs
Hell to the fuck no
Tyrus Thomas is really Stromile Swift with a retarded mask on..Think about it Same height, same school, same athletic ability, same sucky ass work ethic, same no real position having retarded statement making fucker. News flash retard. Sloan doesnt like lazy ass jump shooters who have 1 for 17 games. Fuck u stromile.
We don't need to make changes,
just start scals at the 2.
"The only reason people get lost in thought is because it's unfamiliar territory."
I'm wondering where all this sudden love for Monta came from
Every person who argues in his favor keeps talking about him being this top 5 SG and top player on a bad team. Maybe its just a preset notion, but aren’t top player suppose to be able to put their teams on they’re backs and carry them? In 6 seasons Monta has only led the Warriors to 1 playoff appearance. And if they want to blame that on that the Warriors have had "bad players. Wade had bad players and led his team to an NBA Championship, Rose didn’t have the best supporting cast and led the Bulls to 62 wins (with 2 of our key players being out), Chris Paul has led his team to the playoffs 3 times, hell even Iguodala, Nash, and Roy have led their teams to multiple playoffs with average or less supporting casts.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
First off who is saying he is a top player
He is a top 5 sg however, I dont know what you guys watch but the dude can score with the best of them. the bulls are not bringing him here to be the man, he is just for support. He would undoubtedly be able to go off if teams try and pay to much attention to Rose. I only consider him because he is the best the bulls can get. they aint beating the heat and maybe even the knicks with Rose alone or even with rose and some marginal upgrade. the bulls dont have to bring back Jordan but they do need a big upgrade. a guy who is all star caliber at least.
Eliis is not a good defensive player
He may have been #3 in steals, but that isn’t enough to qualify someone as a good defensive player. Losing Deng for Ellis would be a significant defensive downgrade.
The other issue is that Ellis and Rose are very similar players…same size and both ball dominant guards. Ellis uses a lot of shots to generate his points, like Rose. I’m not sure hey complement each other.
Monta was not excited about sharing the ball with Stephen Curry so I wouldn’t be sure he’d be thrilled about playing with Rose unless it was clear he was the first scoring option…and maybe he would be and that would work out.
by hitlesswonder on Jun 3, 2011 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
Monta came around on sharing the ball with curry, so that is a non- issue
Monta is a good defender and I know the difference between being a good defender and playing the passing lanes. them having similar styles is irrelevant because Rose will adjust. having monta will allow Rose to take less shots and I think that will make him more efficient and effective. look Im not saying monta is the best thing in the world, but if my options come between gordon, mayo, and ellis, man please. the chance of getting dwight is very slim, I have hope but that might take a couple years and these dudes aint getting younger
For one
I disagree with your statement above. Ellis is not a top 5 SG. Kobe, Wade, Johnson, Roy (when healthy) and Iggy are all better than him. I have him tied with Martin for 6th maybe because neither of them are great at defense and while Ellis is a better scorer, Martin is the better shooter and gets to the line more.
Another thing, Rose was second to Ellis this year in FGA and they both shot around 45%. So not much to gain in that perspective and Monta may have warmed up to Curry, but in this case he would be playing with the MVP of the league and the baby boy of Chicago. There was a difference in warming up to Curry knowing that the team still belonged to him. In Chicago it won’t, he’ll always be Rose’s sidekick or Rose’s partner and he might consider that a slap in the face.
Another thing, he is a undersized 2 guard. Not to say that he isn’t a willing defensive player (though I’ve seen the contrary in the GS games I’ve watched) but even if he were willing, he’s too small to hold up consistently. The only way to mask that would be to hope Rose gets good enough on defense to where he can defend 2 guards while Ellis guards the point. I’m not willing to put my money on those odds…..
And to top it all off, I sure as hell wouldn’t trade Deng for Ellis. Deng is a good scorer and magnificent defender and as Thibs described it “the glue that holds this team together.” I think its underrated how much of a hand he played with Rose when Noah and Boozer were out this year.
Like I said, Iggy would be my first choice. Ellis might be my 3rd or 4th option at best.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
Rose was third to Ellis' second is what I meant to say.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
First off dude this is not 2008, so drop Roy
Iggy really? he is not even a 2 guard, he is more of a SF, so I dont know why they play him at the 2 when he cant shoot and barely score, but he is good at almost everything else, but he is a utility guy that can do it all for you and one you cant depend on unless he is in a lesser role kinda like Odom or Deng. Kevin martin come on, I see people talking about monta being a bad defender when he actually isnt but kevin martin is every bit of a bad defender. Secondly I said ellis and Wright and IMO that is better than just Deng; I know many will disagree with that but I dont care because I think we are all overrating our players again like we do all the time. Deng will not be missed defensively because of coach thibs and Wright who is a good defender himself and much more athletic than Deng. This may sound crazy but I just think it is time to leave that whole kirk hinrich era behind by trading away deng as well, because as productive of a season deng had, for some reason I think he is holding the team back.
im with you Ric
Ellis and Rose would crush defenses……
I get clients down to 5% body fat with ease you fucking idiot. - dakoose
and they would be crushed on defense
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Roy will likely never be healthy again.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
More than agreed.
In fact, I really think that when/if Kobe retires, Gordon will take over as the top 2 guard in the West. He’s already damn good and he’s just as young as Derrick.
How does one practice consistency? Take lots of Benefiber?
by WearShades on May 31, 2011 6:37 AM PDT
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jun 4, 2011 9:55 AM CDT up reply actions
I agree as well
but as incompetent as the clippers are they are not giving up Gordon. He would be a perfect complement because he can pass,shoot,score, and he plays defense. I just think we cant get any one better than Ellis.I really dont know about mayo and his consistency.
I don't even like fantasizing about getting Gordon anymore.
Because the more perfect it is the less likely it can happen. :-P They even played AAU ball together.
How does one practice consistency? Take lots of Benefiber?
by WearShades on May 31, 2011 6:37 AM PDT
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jun 4, 2011 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions
and if oj mayo was
as obvious an ideal partner for derrick at the 2 as harden or gordon, he would’ve displayed it by now?
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
I think it's more that Mayo just isn't as good as them.
But I don’t know, I don’t think he’s a bad fit. Ultimately, he’s the only one that might be available.
If OKC had brains they’d end the ‘Harden off the bench’ stuff heading into next season and get him used to that starting role alongside Westbrook.
How does one practice consistency? Take lots of Benefiber?
by WearShades on May 31, 2011 6:37 AM PDT
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jun 4, 2011 7:15 PM CDT up reply actions
The SG options mentioned
I think one of the first things that needs to be addressed when it comes to a SG is that they need to be able to handle the ball. The problem the Bulls have is that Deng is not a great ballhandler. So when you have a SG who isn’t either, Derrick has to have the ball in his hands all the time. So whoever comes in at SG needs to be someone who Derrick can pass too when he’s trapped and can make a play. As for the SGs listed in the post above.
Ben Gordon – I sort of like the idea of Ben Gordon on this team, but his contract makes that impossible. It’s just not a good deal and too risky for a player who has seemingly gotten worse since leaving the Bulls. He would be an incredible improvement over Korver in late game situations since he can create his own shot and handle the ball. His defense is sketchy, but so is Korvers. I just don’t see how he could get over here via trade and being a bad contract, there isn’t much I’d want to give up in return for him.
Kirk Hinrich – I’m not sure why everyone is so down on him. He would make a really nice addition to the team. Basically a version of Keith Bogans with good ball handling skills. He can still knock down an open 3 on occasion and can be paired with Derrick at the same time. We know his defense is good and I think he’d thrive in a system like Thibodeaus. The one other major plus is he would allow us to make C.J. Watson expendable. Kirk could handle the PG duties when Derrick needs a rest. I don’t know how it can possibly happen unless Atlanta uses an amnesty clause on him from the new CBA. I would not give up Korver since every team needs a sharpshooter on the bench.
Monta Ellis – Really intriguing option although I don’t see the Bulls having the pieces to get him. He’s a 25 year old who can score. The Warriors are not giving him up for nothing and the Bulls don’t have the cap space to absorb that contract.
I still think Mayo or J.R. Smith are the two realistic options. I’d personally give up Asik and draft picks in a heartbeat for Mayo (although I doubt they’d do that). He’s a lottery level talent who can create his own shot. J.R. Smith would be a dangerous option, but he has that ability to throw a team on his back for a quarter. With how good Miami has looked, I’d take the chance on him regardless of his issues off the court.
Everyone is down on Kirk Hinrich because they have brains with working memories. Kirk was rubbish his last year here.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 3, 2011 9:40 PM CDT up reply actions
and as recently as the playoffs
we saw atlanta was better off with jeff teague
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
Watching the Dallas recipe of 3 playmakers against MIA
in the 4th quarter last night should be roadmap for improvement for CHI. Mia had to respect Nowikski, Kidd and Terry. Marion and Chandler did the grunt work. Bulls on the other hand depended almost entirely on Rose or Ball movement to create offense. Pathetic if Bulls Management doesn’t get Rose help.
we know that the bulls will improve this offseason
it would be foolish to not think they will. We know rose will continue to improve, but expect Noah to continue improving his jumper. Regardless, bulls are going to need help from another SG, but i recommend the bulls add a better 6th man than korver. I know we are beating a deadhorse but this team seriously needs more playmakers and adding one SG who can create his own shot is not enough.
Hopefully Rip hamilton becomes available. Hes the ideal 6th man that can really put the bulls bench over the top. This year, our bench was known to be defensive monsters. With hamilton, the bench mob will be strong on both ends of the floor.
check this lineup out:
Noah
Booz
Deng
Iggy
D-Rose
Bench mob:
Rip
Asik
Brew
Honestly, this 8 man rotation alone will be killin. With iggy, you can rest Deng during the game and play Iggy at SF and play Rip at SG. This team will be alot more versatile and Thibs will have two strong defenders and two players who can really make Rose’s life alot mroe easier (Rip and Iggy obviously).
this might be worst because we have absolutely no one to spread the court
this would make it even more easier for miami to defend, even though we have better players they still cant shoot. the defense would be much better with Iggy though.
Iggy really isn't bad 3PT shooter
He’s just takes too many sometimes. And no it wouldn’t make us easier to defend because…have you ever seen Iggy drive to the basket? He is a ferocious finisher. His athleticism makes stand out on that end. He’s just not a number one player which is why his numbers never seem to be good enough.
And by the way……..
Wade: 29.2% from 3
Johnson: 36.6% from 3
Ellis: 33.1% from 3
Roy: 35.2% from 3
Ginobili: 37.1% from 3
Iggy: 32.3% from 3
For the most part….Iggy is right there with the best of them at shooting the 3. Combine that with his defense, rebounding, assisting, and motor….I would gladly take that.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
None of those guys listed are “the best of them at shooting the 3”. If 32% is what we want out of our SG then we might as well have just kept James Johnson or start Brewer.
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 3, 2011 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Then it depends on what you are looking for
I keep hearing that “all we need is a guy who can play a little defense, shoot the 3, and create his own shot”…..as far as shooting guards go, that’s an elite SG. Outside of Wade, Kobe, Johnson, and a healthy Brandon Roy, no other SG can do all of those things on a consistent basis. And don’t even tell me Mayo because he’s not that good on defense either and average at creating his own efficient shot.
As far as the best of them goes, I was talking about the players who are considered the best SGs in the game, not the best 3PT shooters.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
He wont be able to ferociously finish at the basket if he cant get there because of miami packing the paint on the bulls
We might be a better team but we wouldn’t get past miami because we would be playing to there strengths defensively.
Any SGs with potential slotted to fall far in the draft?
or any hope we trade up?
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
Marshon Brooks from Providence
I’m hoping that he is still available by the time we pick at the end of the 1st round. I also want Malcolm Lee out of UCLA.
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 3, 2011 10:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Evidently he and Burks are both injured
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?id=6628121
do draft geeks have any idea if this will cause either of them to drop? I know Burks is supposed to be a lottery pick. He would look pretty damn awesome on the Bulls though.
Burks is good as gone, by the time we pick
Burks is rated as a lottery pick. For our team, Marshon Brooks is probably the best fit. He shoots the ball much better, was a prolific scorer, and a very long frame. Alec Burks I like a whole lot, he can can really fill it up. BUT… Brooks fills the need for a big time scorer at the SG position, 3 point shooting, good ball handling ability, and length.
If we draft Marshon Brooks (SG) and Justin Harper (PF) i’d be very happy!
[only built for cuban linx]
by Mighty Healthy on Jun 6, 2011 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions
BG7
I like the Ben Gordon idea. The dude is clutch, is automatic offense, has dumped tons of points on DWade in the past, and fit well in the Skiles defensive system. I’m sure he’d work well with Thibs, who likely remembers what BG7 did in the epic Boston series. (People forget we didn’t have Deng in that contest.)
With the emergence of Rose, Gordon wouldn’t be handling the ball as much, and Gordon on the floor definitely would free up space for the bigs to operate more effectively. Let’s do this!
I think the key thing that has to happen for BG7 to work out for us
Is for Rose to really be able to cover the taller SGs well. If he can do that, then Ben can be hidden on the PG. If Ben is getting paid like he is, he better be able to play even if their SG is over 6’6".
You guys and ben gordon are blind
The guy is baddd..he cant dribble for his life and cant defend..What are you guys watching..?…He and dang both cant dribble u dont need 2 guys like that on the court and if gordon is off ur in trouble cause he cant defend.He can score 20 but he also gives up 25..lol wake upppp.You need a sg that can defend and ave 10 to 12 points a games…The rest has to be off the bench…I’l take mayo or ellis anyday..Enough said.!
BG would be an improvement over Korver on both sides of the Ball.
Korver can’t dribble or defend. And if Korver can’t score like in the MIA series what use is he? BG, mayo or ellis would be upgrades.
To be honest
i think korver is a better shooter in terms of form and consistency, and i think they are about the same on defense, korver like gordon has had times when hes looked abysmal, and times when you wonder why his reputation is as bad as it is. Still 9/10 times you put them on a good sg, and that good sg is going to go off. In terms of defense in a backcourt with rose, i think at least korver can contest a 2guards size, ben gordon cant so he would HAVE to guard the point guard putting rose on the 2 which isnt ideal, no matter how good rose gets at defense.
Still, id choose ben gordon over kover, mainly because ben gordon is overall a much better and more versatile scorer than korver, and especially in the clutch. Plus ben gordon has a pretty solid team mate personality….as far as sgs with his talents go…
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Korver might be tall enough
But any starting 2 guard in the league can just dribble around him. Probably even Bogans.
As for shooting form, I think agree with you that Korver has better technique, but when the results are the same do we care that Gordon doesn’t use perfect form every single time?
ben gordon or korver - the results will be the same
right now jet terry and peja stojakovic can barely do a damn thing against miami.
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
Yes, defensively they are both bad
However, Ben Gordon is a superior offensive player.
Plus, he is able to create his own shot, which is something this team is desperate for.
how will ben do better against miami than jason terry is doing now?
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
Through 4 games in the finals Terry is averaging 15 points on 39% shooting in 32.75 minutes played.
In 5 games, Korver, Bogans, and Brewer combined averaged 15.4 points on 41% shooting in 55 combined minutes played.
If I’ve done my math right, this means Terry is scoring 16.5 points per 36 minutes, while the Bulls got 10 points per 36 minutes from their 2 guards.
So we might not even need someone better than Terry.
On the other hand, Ben Gordon has historically scored more points than Terry at almost exactly the same efficiency, and shoots much better from 3 point range, which is exactly what the Bulls need.
His name is Deng.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
by Dash2112 on Jun 5, 2011 2:36 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Nope, it's Dang.
And Ben Gordan, Derek Rose and Kurt Heinrich.
How does one practice consistency? Take lots of Benefiber?
by WearShades on May 31, 2011 6:37 AM PDT
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jun 5, 2011 11:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Don't for get
Koral Kyver
'Don't believe in you who believe in me and don't believe in me who believes in you, but believe in you who believe in yourself'
A bit off-topic:
I’m hdrive is almost full, so I’m going to delete most of the Bulls games I downloaded this season.
Which games should I keep?
… 12/4 vs Rockets, 12/10 vs Lakers, 1/15 vs Heat, 1/28 vs Magic, 2/2 @ Clippers, 2/9 @ Jazz, 2/12 @Hornets, 2/17 vs Spurs, 2/24 vs Heat, 3/6 @ Heat, 3/12 vs Jazz
any others?
This makes me think.
The Bulls should have a service to allow you to watch any broadcast of a game from the past season. It’d keep interest in the offseason, and allow people who only watched the playoffs to see the team during the year.
bulls@phoenix, double ot, great win.
by #1humblebot on Jun 7, 2011 7:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
the last game we played against boston really symbolized a changing of the guard (fuck rondo)
And rose put on a dunk contest in msg when we beat the knicks for a victory against every team in the damn association! Regular season domination biches!
by #1humblebot on Jun 7, 2011 7:15 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions
The Recipe
Everything the Bulls choose to do in this offseason and over the next 5 years needs to be geared toward beating the heat (obvious). With that said, I think you need to start with the Heat’s deficiencies and work backwards. The Heat cannot guard players that bang in the post and have true post moves. Sooo….
I think that Boozer was definitely hurt this postseason, he is aging but there is no way father time caused his lift to completely go in a matter of 2 months. I blame injury. He showed up much bigger in every other postseason in Utah. I have seen Boozer destroy teams in the playoffs and know he can show up for big games. Back to the basket play is a critical component to beating the heat, as no team has exploited there weaknesses defending post players. Therefore, don’t trade Booz.
I fully expect Noah to return to being a middling offensive threat with his tornado jumper. If he can work on that hook shot it would be huge for us. He needs to get with Jabbar and start working. He could become a threat.
Dont trade Deng for Monta Ellis. Come on guys.
SG: This is the big hole. I say to myself: “SG, its the easiest position to fill in the NBA. We only need a big guard who can shoot, handle, and d up the other big guards. Oh wait, that is really hard to find.” Can you imaging Ginobili in his prime on this team? Where is THAT guy.
I think patience is key here. The wrong guy (any of the current options) isn’t getting us over the hump. If it ain’t right this year, I think you have to wait it out.
D12: this is the dream. I’d say ORL will take a look at some combo of picks / Sheek / Noah / Booz / Taj when it really comes down to it. I also think the Bulls are in the unique situation to take back Arenas. I don’t know how the salaries work (or will work) but let’s say we send Noah / Taj / Picks. Take back Arenas and D how. Arenas adds another penetrator and shooter (haha) to our roster. I think that with Howard in the middle, Rose and Gil could literally over play the 3 and force drives to make up for their lack of size.
Rose
Gil
Deng
Booz
Howard
That’s tough…
I think there aren’t any viable moves this offseason that make us better. Look at the bright side, our two starting bigs were injured in the playoffs and we still made an incredible run. One heatle injury could turn any season / postseason on its head. We are likely to get a short term fix at 2 guard and hopefully a longer term solution down the road.
Comments For This Post Are Closed
Secondary Sidebar
User Tools
NBA Playoffs Content Module
Related FanPosts on Blog a Bull
Related FanShots on Blog a Bull
FanPosts
Community blog posts and discussion.
Recent FanPosts
In Association With
Ball Don't Lie - NBA - Yahoo! Sport
- Shaquille O’Neal is in a Chinese beer commercial, too (VIDEO)
- ‘Deep Thoughts’ and Cheap Thoughts: San Antonio Spurs vs. Oklahoma City Thunder
- C-a-C: This is probably as close to LeBron James working with John Waters as we’ll ever get
- Dwyane Wade’s hot pink pants: The kind of thing you can get away with when you drop 41
- Lamar Odom to New York? Dwight Howard on the move? For now, it’s all talk
