A Simple Trade to Alleviate Some Issues: Kirk Hinrich
I figured I would propose a simple that the Bulls actually should be able to agree to in principle by the draft. A trade that does not rely on a team deciding to trade their best player or a team deciding to trade a player with potential that they don't really have any reason to trade. I suggest bringing Blogabull favorite Captain Kirk Hinrich back home. Sending Watson and Korver to Atlanta for Hinrich is basically a wash in terms of contracts because Watson and Korver's third years are not guaranteed. And assuming that Atlanta now wants to give Teague a chance as the starting point and that Jamal Crawford will not be resigned given the Hawk's contract situation, Atlanta could really use the increased depth from this trade. The Hawks should benefit by being able to get more minutes out of both Watson and Korver than the Bulls could and more than Hinrich could play by himself. This trade cannot become official until the new NBA business year begins, but because the money is basically the same the trade will work no matter what the new CBA ends up being so the teams can easily agree in principle to the deal prior to the draft. There is no reason the Bulls and Hawks should not be able to work something out along those basic lines.
So why should the Bulls want your friendly Bulls Blogger's favorite punching bag back? On the charitable side it would free longtime quality Blogabull poster wjb1492 from contemplating the future of the Atlanta Hawks. On the sadistic side I think I would get a kick out of this blog's founder having to deal with the return of the personification of every Bulls front office cliché. And because it is a simple achievable move to help this team win playoff games. I was never a fan of trading Hinrich, but I understood taking the risk. Now that the 2010 free agent year has came and went the Bulls might as well bring John Paxson's adopted son back for a number of reasons I will try to articulate.
Having spent time studying NBA history over a number of years I have concluded that is very hard to win with a point-guard-sized point guard as your best player. Size is simply a limiting factor in the NBA. Dwyane Wade is only about two inches taller than Derrick Rose, but those two inches result in Wade dunking balls that Rose has to make a difficult layup attempt on. It is a NBA reality that it is hard to win a championship if your best player is the shortest player on the floor. And it is even harder if that player is your point guard because there is so much wasted energy in playing point guard. When there is a change of possession Derrick Rose typically has to fight back to the ball. He then often has to expend energy eighty feet from the hoop defeating token pressure. And then when he does get the team into a half court offense he is attacking a set defense with a live dribble thirty feet from the hoop with all five defenders watching him.
The good news with Derrick Rose is that he is so athletic and strong that he can overcome being 6'2" as well as any player in NBA History. The level of play he reached this year with a game still with plenty of room for refinement gives plenty of hope that Derrick can reach that truly elite level of the best handful of players in the game. The other good news is that he is not a "pure" point guard, although he is always going to play the majority of his minutes there he is not locked into the things that hold point guards back. He's belongs in the group of scorers that are also play makers. He is more Dwyane Wade than Chris Paul. As Derrick's career continues I would like to see him become less and less dependent on dominating the ball to score. The pick and roll and isolation will always be a big part of his game, but he has to become smarter with a greater variety of ways to score. By moving him off the ball you have the opportunity for his first touch to be on the move against a rotating defense, or inside of twenty feet with an unused dribble.
This is where Kirk Hinrich's return matters Hinrich's ability to be a fully functioning starting caliber point guard, while also being an effective shooting guard on both offense and defense is a rare skill set. For years he did all the dirty work for Ben Gordon and then he did much the same for Derrick Rose during his first two seasons. When it became clear that Derrick was primarily a scorer that struggles with defense I switched from believing that Ben Gordon was the guard the Bulls needed to keep to believing that Hinrich was the guard the Bulls needed to keep.
Hinrich coming back gives the Bulls a better backup to Derrick Rose. C.J. Watson was more than serviceable and turned out to be a great defender in terms of stopping penetration by point guards, but his lack of court awareness was glaring and hurt his ability to run the second unit. He's mostly lost in the half court outside of getting his own shot. Hinrich is much more capable of quarterbacking the second unit as well as stepping in as the starter if Rose is hurt, but I really want Hinrich back to be in that closing lineup at the end of the second and fourth quarters. That is when it is important to not have Derrick involved in the energy wasting aspects of playing point guard, and when it is important to be able to move Derrick off the ball on offense. Before the season there was a possibility that Watson could be some of that for Derrick, but Watson's lack of court awareness on offense did not produce the desired effect and his lack of size was a significant limitation on defense. I don't have a lot of hope in that pairing improving to the point where it would need to be.
Hinrich obviously does not shoot the ball as well as Kyle Korver, but he is still a shooter that defenses have to honor. And a player that has had success coming of those same curls that Thibodeau had Korver run during the Scott Skiles years. And the team gains a defensive asset instead of liability. A guy that lets Derrick take the easiest defensive assignment. And Hinrich is that second important second ball-handler. Not just a second guy that can run a secondary pick and roll, but an experienced playoff point guard that can get the team into their offense. A guy that can let Derrick avoid the energy wasting aspects of point guard play late in halves, and help him score easier. For me getting someone like Hinrich that can save Derrick's energy on both offense and defense, while still being a credible shooting threat is more important than a true shooting guard that can get shots up.
If the Bulls acquire Hinrich ideally he would play the entire second and fourth quarters, first subbing for Rose and then playing with Rose. Ronnie Brewer showed enough against LeBron James and particularly Dwyane Wade that I view him as a keeper. I still think he fits best basically in his current role playing 20-25 minutes off the bench because of his offensive limitations. When Utah started Brewer they always still had three long range shooters in their lineup thanks to Mehmet Okur. I would personally be fine with Bogans continuing in his current role for another season, although the Bulls should obviously look for an upgrade at that position. Starting Bogans over Brewer and Korver always made sense to me, and I would be careful about upgrading the talent at that spot just to upgrade the talent. The reluctance/inability of Bogans to get his own shot off actually helps force the ball inside at the beginning of games when the Bulls should be running offense and trying to establish Boozer and Noah. If they bring someone else in for that spot they need a guy that can shoot the three, but that player also needs to be a disciplined offensive player. There is a reason a number of really good coaches typically start one perimeter player that is just a guy that takes open threes, but if the Bulls have Hinrich back they are also in a better position to take a chance on higher risk options to replace Bogans in the rotation. The Bulls can then use some combination of draft picks and free agency to pick up a third guard that can run the point and another wing that knock down an open three in case of injury to round out the perimeter players on the team. Those are two types of players that can be found late in drafts if the Bills decide to go that route.
Getting Kirk Hinrich back certainly is not sexy, especially if you are still busy over reacting to the Bulls playoff loss and think the Bulls are doomed to forever to lose to the Heat without a major talent upgrade. I'm not one of those people. Defeating Miami was never going to be easy, but nothing that happened in that series made me fear that the Bulls would never be able to beat the Heat. Just getting Hinrich would go along way toward making that happen by helping to solve some of the end of game matchup issues the Bulls face. Hinrich is not by any means a great player, but he is a starting caliber one and his versatility on both ends of the court would help the Bulls and Derrick Rose especially. At least in the short term he's more likely to make a positive impact than some of the popular trade targets such as O.J. Mayo. It is a trade that the Bulls should absolutely be able to get done with the Hawks, and if that magical blockbuster trade does actually materialize during next season Hinrich would still be an 8 million dollar expiring contract at the trade deadline. And if the mere thought of Hinrich back in a Bulls uniform upsets you there is probably a 90% chance Hinrich is coming back to the Bulls when he's a free agent in a year anyway so we might as well get it over with.
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Not to split inches or anything
Everything I’ve seen has Rose listed as 6’ 3", but several folks here have referred to him as 6’ 2". So, what gives?
"If the Bulls are healthy it could get ugly." - Joakim Noah
He is actually a quarter centimeter away from being 6' 3"
So I guess people just say forget it and list him as that.
Derrick was measured at 6'1.5" without shoes and 6'2.5" with shoes at the predraft camp.
You can round up as is common practice. I tend to round down in part because of some of his peers that he is comparable are taller than their listed heights including Wade and Westbrook.
Even if we got Hinrich
I still believe we would need a more dynamic scoring presence off the bench.
My question is – if Hinrich and Rose were so mediocre together before, why would they be so much better now? Is it just because Rose has improved? Is it because VDN was such a boob? Hinrich has always seemed like a player who is better on paper than he is in the games. I’d welcome him back because he would eliminate the need for Bogans and CJ Watson like you mention, but I don’t believe his return alone would get us over the hump. I don’t trust his offensive game.
by Basketball Smurf on Jun 2, 2011 1:42 AM CDT reply actions
hes better than cj and bogans combined?
its seems like a small thing, but hinrich can defend as good as bogans, while handle the ball as good as cj, while being a better 3pt shooter than both of them. It essentially helps limit the bulls team of specialist by combining some players skills and slightly upgrading. But i agree (as i believe so does scotter) this does not solve our “one more piece” problem, or put us over the top to win a championship. It does make us better, as scotter said, alleviate some issues. Trading for hinrich, and then say trading up a bit in the draft to get a guy like marshon brooks and also getting a guy like david lighty with our 2nd round pick could help round out our roster a bit nicely
rose/hinrich
brewer/brooks
deng/brewer/lighty
booze/taj/kurt?
noah/asik/kurt?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I think Hinrich's days as a starter are done
He had a tough year this year. The Hawks were around -10.6 points per 100 net with Hinrich on the court, and +0.6 net with Hinrich off it. The Wizards were around -10.0 points per 100 net with Hinrich on the court, and -7.3 with Hinrich off it.
His 2-year APM is -7.50 (standard error just 2.29 because of the team switches, so very good chance he’s been a negative factor). His 4-year APM is at -0.8, and that includes his massively positive year when Derrick was a rookie. So even with the great year he’s been negative overall in the past four, and it’s more support that he’s been negative recently. Factor in that age 31 (Hinrich’s age next year) is when many wing defenders have started falling off (Posey, Marion, Artest), and I don’t see a bounceback coming for him. He’s a scrappy guy with good athleticism who needs all of it to be a starting caliber player, and if that starts going at all (and I think it already has a bit in recent years), he’s in trouble.
I think it’s also worth noting that Hinrich was a Bull just a season ago, and he played 1700 minutes as a shooting guard alongside Derrick. His Per36 numbers as a shooting guard: 11.7pts, 4.1ast, 3.6reb, 1.3tov, 51.7 TS%. Lineups with Rose+Hinrich were -1.9 net per 100 poss (Bulls were -1.7 net overall). Lineups with Rose+Hinrich+Deng+Noah were a more encouraging 2.6 in 784 minutes compared to -2.2 for RoseDeng+Noah WITHOUT Hinrich in 682 minutes. Part of that is Hinrich had some ability, part of that was the Bulls’ most used other SG options were John Salmons, Flip Murray, and Jannero Pargo. What a difference a year makes! Which leads to the next point…
But even more, I don’t like that idea that because Watson and Korver have imperfect styles, the Bulls are better off getting a player who’s a better fit in exchange for them. Korver was important to the Bulls this year. Lineups with him and Derrick together were +7.9 net per 100 poss this year, and that combination gave the Bulls their best offense with a 112.3 ORating in 984 minutes. It’s useful to have that option, and you have to respect what those lineups did in the 4th quarters all season. Also, with Rose on the bench, Korver often was the Bulls’ #1 option, as he averaged 16.7 pts per 36 minutes at a 57% TS with Rose off the court, and lineups with Korver and without Rose were at +8.1 per 100 poss this year. Similarly, lineups with Watson and without Rose were +6.3 per 100 poss this year (100.5 ORating, 94.2 DRating). I agree Watson has his problems on offense, but I love his defense and it translated into results.
The problem that I saw with the Bulls in the playoffs was their inability to beat the PnR trap, and so I agree that getting another playmaker is key. But while Hinrich’s ballhandling and passing would help, do you trust a 31 year old Hinrich to exploit the 4on3 in the playoffs and solve that issue? If not, don’t trade two key members of the bench mob for him.
by YaoPau on Jun 2, 2011 2:15 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I didn't address a couple of your points...
- Adding Hinrich allows the Bulls to take a risk on a better SG. Does it? I would think that keeping two guys who’ve already had success in the system allows the Bulls to take a risk.
- Hinrich would be a better backup PG than Watson. Watson’s 4-year APM is +1.2, and that’s mostly at PG. I could see it if Hinrich were a good enough passer that he’d increase Boozer’s production, but I’m not sure there’s evidence of that.
I’d be more interested in Hinrich if the Bulls signed, say, JR Smith, and with Brewer as the top backup only a dozen or so backcourt minutes remained. In that case, you add a longtime Bull, good guy, another defender to throw at Wade, a capable backup PG and third SG, and you shed an extra player to avoid minutes arguments. Why not.
By taking a risk I meant taking a guy with a riskier temperment.
Having Hinrich who can play solidly in any situation and keep the team organized and in the team concept allows the the Bulls to take a risk on a guy that might upset the apple cart. A guy with questionable shot selection and questionable commitment to what has to get done within the team concept. J.R. Smith would be an example, although one probably out of the Bulls price range, but I feel similarly about Rip Hamilton if he does get bought out. If I have Hinrich who I trust to close out games then I am more willing to take a chance on a guy with poor shot selection and/or potential malcontent if I feel like I can put him on the bench in the fourth.
Hinrich is a better passer than Watson, but more importantly he has a much better understanding of how to run a offense. And they are significantly apart when it comes to delivering a pass off of a pick and roll. Hinrich’s ability to drop a pocket pass to a post player or make a post entry pass is so much better.
I think you place way too much emphasis lineup data.
It has its uses, but you have to be really careful throwing numbers around given all the variables and variance, especially lineup data from bad teams in my opinion. Is Hinrich really a different player from two years ago when the Bulls were +6 with Hinrich on the court and -6 off the court? His actual stats this season were basically identical to his stats from two seasons ago. Why should I believe that Hinrich is now a player that makes his team worse? I’m just not a believer in the accuracy of 4-year APM as a player rater. (That said I don’t believe in the accuracy of PER as a player rater either, one number summation stats are mostly useless to me.)
The lineup data I am interested in is the data involving Rose/Hinrich/Deng/Noah, but I don’t put a lot of stock in that either. Rose is a very different player than just a season ago with a huge bump in both usage and efficiency accompany three point range that did not exist a year ago. Luol Deng is a different player with his new found range. And having Carlos Boozer in that lineup is different from having a rookie Taj Gibson or Tyrus Thomas. And it is an entirely different defensive system. I place much more stock in what I observed with Hinrich on the court with Deng for years, with Noah for three seasons, and Derrick for two seasons than the results of single season lineup data.
I have basically no problem with his per 36 stats at shooting guard. His shooting accuracy was down that season, but his efficiency was back up this season. Otherwise those stats are basically fine. Korver averaged only 13.6 points per 36 minutes with Rose on the court this season. Hinrich scores a little less, but you get the second ball-handler with around a 3:1 assist to turnover ratio. On average during the regular season having Korver close the games is likely to be just as good as having Hinrich close games or even better, but against playoff teams that are less likely to have a guy to hide Korver on as the Bulls found out with Atlanta and Miami Hinrich becomes more valuable.
The same lineup that was so good during the regular season with Watson at the point struggled a whole lot more in the playoffs. You really think swapping Hinrich for Watson in a lineup with Brewer, Deng, Taj, and Omer gets a lot worse defensively? You’re really committed to a point guard that led his team to a 100 ORtg? I don’t expect Hinrich to make that lineup much better offensively, but I doubt he really makes that lineup worse.
To answer your last question, if I didn’t think he could do it why would I have argued for playing him to close games. If this was just about winning regular season games then fine keep Watson and Korver. The Bulls are no longer at the stage where winning regular season games is the most important goal. The playoffs are a different animal from the regular season. Players with flaws that are perfectly acceptable during the regular season are exposed during the post season against the league’s best teams. The undersized power forwards that are the darlings of my fellow stats people being perhaps the most prominent example. I believe having Hinrich helps the Bulls in the playoffs more than Watson and Korver. Hinrich has never really given me a reason to doubt his ability to be effective in the playoffs.
i think also hinrich adds more experience in certain situations
that a rookie or even rose would be lacking. For example while rose rests, with hinrich maybe u can afford to keep boozer out on the floor, hinrich, brewer, and asik for example will definetly help hide boozers mistakes defensively, and hinrich has always been a solid pick and roll guy. Plus being a slightly better shooter than cj and bogans, hinrich can feed the ball into the paint for boozer, and just run some more traditional post up plays with boozer. Of course all that is moot if boozer cant stay healthy enough to contribute
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
It's about combining metrics to try to get the error down, obviously nothing is certain
The 4-year ridge APM should reduce the standard errors of a regular 4-year APM, and those were around 1.6. So standard errors should be around 1ish, with even lower errors for the 6-year APM showing Hinrich at -0.6. Obviously context matters, so Hinrich changing positions or roles needs to be taken into consideration, but I don’t see a reason to doubt the accuracy of a regression with standard errors that low, especially when the longterm APMs pass the eye test so well. Without regression, all we have is raw plusminus data and scouting opinion, and so it’s my belief that arguments should start or end there whenever possible. Ratings systems like WS, eWins use scouting opinions to assign credit to box score numbers, and…well, they’re often very wrong. And the only way I know to prove that is by showing some of those results are like 8+ standard errors from what APM deems plausible (their showing Al Jefferson over Steve Nash is one example).
Pure lineup data has its flaws, but if a certain combination is at +8 it’s very probably useful, and if a player is -10 on a good team, even in limited minutes, he very probably wasn’t. Look at something as simple and vague as the worst individual net ratings in the league this year. Basically every player who’s near the bottom in overall net, and had a worse on court net than off court net is certifiably crap. Sometimes, in the case of like, Derek Fisher (Lakers +9.9 on, +1.7 off), it’s obvious that his usual teammates have caused his net rating to skew high. But with Hinrich, being on two different rosters, playing with good talent in Atlanta, I don’t see a clear reason why his numbers would be that skewed.
And so factor in his mediocre longterm APMs, his awful net ratings this year, his average net ratings last year as a Bull, and his declining box score numbers and PER (I agree it’s not a great stat, but it’s available and known and does a decent job of ballparking contributions, especially when comparing one player to past seasons), and combined together, it would take an extremely special case of context/teammates/usage skewing those results for Hinrich to be considered a clearly better option than Korver or Watson were for the Bulls this year. Factor in Hinrich’s age, and I think you have an even harder case to show he’d be an upgrade over Korver+Watson next year.
The argument that Hinrich would help the Bulls more in the playoffs next year because the Bulls lost with Watson/Korver this year is a stretch imo. Korver was massive in the Indiana series, useful in the Atlanta series, and his shot was off against the Heat. It’s a small sample size, and it happens. CJ Watson was diagnosed with plantar fasciitis in late March, and his production fell off a cliff from that point forward.
Couple other numbers to throw your way. Hinrich’s defense with Atlanta, Synergy numbers:
Overall: 0.95 PPP against (ranked 351st in the NBA)
Isolation: 1.06 PPP (331st)
P&R: 0.85 PPP (139th)
Spot-Up: 0.87 PPP (67th)
And with Washington:
Overall: 0.94 PPP against (ranked 331st)
Isolation: 0.92 PPP (251st)
P&R: 0.91 PPP (182nd)
Spot-Up: 1.04 PPP (261st)
If a player was actually a potential difference maker for this Bulls team in 2012, I’d think his ability would show up somewhere in the stats. I don’t see it anywhere. I see one great plus minus season from two years ago that looks like an outlier compared to the rest of his career, and everything else points to him being a nice fit, but a mediocre player who will likely only decline from this point forward.
by YaoPau on Jun 2, 2011 5:48 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
I know about the ridge APMs.
I have read just about everything in APRmetrics over the last 5+ years just like I’m sure you have. I understand that mathematically the standard of errors are lower, but I believe those standard errors are artificially low because of the assumptions that go into APM. APM is a solid concept and I think it has its uses, particularly with identifying undervalued or overvalued players, but I remain unconvinced that it can accurately rank players in the middle of the spectrum. APM can be a piece to the puzzle especially when comparing player that are playing huge minutes with high usage rates, but then again I don’t need APM to make the case that Al Jefferson is significantly worse than Steve Nash. If the choice is APM versus PER, eWins, or Berri’s idiotic win shares then the choice is obviously APM, but that’s a stupid choice to even make because the latter three are basically useless if you’re interested in the actual outcome of wins and losses.
Hinrich is an upgrade not because he is so clearly better than Watson and Korver. Way too much energy is wasted parsing who is better in the middle of the NBA spectrum. However, Hinrich is preferable because he can simply do more things than they can, and specifically things that help Derrick when Derrick us under pressure late in games. It is the option of having a player that can play in any situation, which allows the Bulls to be more flexible possession by possession on both offense and defense.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2011 10:34 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
As for Synergy
I like Synergy and if you’re paying for it you should certainly go ahead and use it, but I also think it frequently gets misused. And there is a significant danger of getting tunnel vision. I’ve found Doug Thonus to be particularly guilty of this. There’s more to basketball than what Synergy chops into plays.
Those defensive numbers do not make me question Hinrich’s defense at all. I’m not worried about a guy who clearly understands his defensive responsibilities being okay with Thibodeau and the Bulls other personnel. A guy teams still trusted to take the toughest defensive assignment. What happened in Washington and Atlanta mean little to me. We obviously disagree about that.
Atlanta at the end of the season was an extremely "special" case
It’s strength of schedule was significantly up at the end of the season, right around the time of the trade. The team was also locked into its playoff spot pretty early and seriously coasted to the end of the season. Add in some fairly obvious chemistry issues working him into the starting lineup, and LD’s system being unlike anything Kirk had ever tried to run before, and I think there’s a darn good argument that there’s little point in seriously evaluating lineup stats from Kirk’s time there. I’ve never seen a good team (and I mean that sincerely) lay down and take more blow out losses than the short time (so far) following Atlanta. In spite of how crazy bad it looked post-trade regular season, it looked good in the first round of the playoffs. So yes, he played with better players in general in Atlanta – but they all played like crap to close out the season.
Washington was just not good this year. Kirk spent time trying to help the team play Flip’s offense, while the team played better just playing.
Does that mean your concerns aren’t valid? Not necessarily – but it does mean there’s a plausible explanation that they might not be.
Basketball isn't kind to team first guys trying to do the right thing on teams where no else bothers.
Put them on teams where everyone else is committed to making the right play and they tend to flourish.
by Scotter on Jun 2, 2011 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think what we should do is this:
Give the FULL MLE (presuming their is one) to Andrei Kirilenko. Kirilenko is a solid passer, and a great defender, and can play in and out of the post and take on the other team’s best scoring option. He’d be our full fledged backup 3/4.
Then we….
Trade Taj Gibson, and C.J. Watson and our #27 and #30’s pick to the Raptors for DeMarr Derozan and Jarryd Bayless.
Bulls rollout a lineup of:
Rose/Bayless
Derozan/Brewer/Korver/Kirilenko for matchups (he can defend the best 2’s)
Deng/Kirilenko/Korver/Brewer
Boozer/Kirilenko
Noah/Asik
I know AK47 is always an injury risk, but when he plays he’s consistently good, and I think if featured more on O he still can be better. Sure he doesn’t have the lift he had 5-6 yrs ago, but he’s 29 throughout much of next year, and he is still very much a solid player (just not the 5 × 5 guy he was 5-6 years ago). But he’s every bit a solid starter….and he’s the key piece to me because he can come in and say shut down Wade and have Deng slow Lebron, and then Rose wouldn’t have to guard Wade for 30-40% of the time, opening Rose’s game. HIs passing is solid, his TS% is great, he had a good 3 pt shooting year last year at least….the only issues is the injuries—and I think those injuries might make him available for that MLE isntead of the $7-8M a year he probably is wortth these days.
As for the other pieces. Derozan obv is a bit of a name as a 17 pt scorer on a scoring only team, that’s pretty crappy. But I think that team needs more D and Taj definitely helps there, thus they might be a willing partner. Guys like Derozan aren’t that rare (he’s no star) but he’s a solid guy with some potential. CJ Watson gives them some scoring firepower and a different look paired iwth Calderon (who’s pretty untradable with his contract), and I think CJ for them is a better fit than Bayless, who doesn’t have the D principles of CJ, but who is a scorer—which is something we need.
I know this isn’t Dwight Howard, but come on folks we ain’t getting Howard…
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
can't bank on exceptions
Give the FULL MLE
there might not be an MLE for AK in the new CBA. Bayless isn’t any better than Watson IMO. Derozan is alright, I’d rather have Harden if we are talking about non-superstar guards and surrendering Taj.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 2, 2011 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes Bayless isn't better than Watson
For us, but Watson is a much better defender, whch might help for them.
I don’t think we can get Harden for what we’re giving up, they have a Taj, and Harden is better (or has better upside) than Derozan.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
are you referring to Ibaka?
they have a Taj
Ibaka can play some center with Gibson on the court. There other bigs other than Ibaka and Perkins I’d rate lower than Gibson, so I think they’d go for the upgrade.
The Thunder would give there bulk minutes to Ibaka/Taj/Perkins.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
Perhaps
But for them, the loss of another scorer trumps the better defensive post man….and Ibaka and Durant seem to be quiet freindly, plus they just spent $2B relatively on the crappy Perkins. And yes Perkins is crappy, he’s viewed better than he really is only because of hte Boston thing. He sucks.
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
Yeah I forgot they don't have much of a scoring punch
besides Westbrook and Durant.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 3, 2011 10:26 AM CDT up reply actions
Also I said
(presumign their is one), and right now until anything changes, there is one….
The kid's out of this world. He's got Allen Iverson speed, Jason Kidd's vision, Chauncey Billups' shooting ability and Michael Jordan's athleticism. How do you guard that? - Pacers coach Frank Vogel.
I only pointed it out
because i wasn’t going to speculate about AK in my response to you. I think he would be worth a flyer.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
No thanks.
Ronnie Brewer plays better defense and is a more athletic player than Hinrich already.
If Hinrich was a more consistent clutch 3 point shooter I’d consider it, but he hasn’t shown anything recently to change that, plus I would also agree with the majority that his skills are detonating.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
er deteriorating*
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on Jun 2, 2011 9:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Ronnie Brewer wasn't involved in the trade
I actually said in the post that the Bulls should keep Brewer.
I'm still of the opinion that Rose should be playing more 2 than he currently does.
Kirk is a plus passer with great court vision and an above-average shot who has lost a step or two since 2006. Rose is a slasher who can pass, much more DWade than CP3. It would be nice to have a second guy on the court who could bring the ball up, set up the offense, and get the other players where they’re supposed to be. JoNo is decent when he’s got people slashing around him, but he’s mostly a back-to-the-basket passer. Kirk’s strength to this team would be his vision and his defense. I’d be more than fine getting Enterprise back into the fold. I just hope we can afford him.
I still say my actual favorite punching bag was Chris Duhon
Hinrich’s entire value would be if he was as ‘credible’ a shooting threat as you describe. I’m not so sure.
And you’re right, moreso than the basketball aspect, the overtones of such a move would cripple me. To make it fun I’ll spin it as such a move being proof that the chemistry sucked last year and cost us the Finals
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 2, 2011 9:54 AM CDT reply actions
to use an old Allen Iverson euphemism
if Kirk Hinrich is the answer, I don’t want to know the question.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 2, 2011 10:24 AM CDT up reply actions
We should get both Kirk and BG back
and then just have people trade barbs all gamethread about whether Ben’s 1 turnover which happened to be off his leg was his most important stat, or if it matters that Kirk is shooting 40% from 3 point range since he missed this particular one which was the only important one.
Meant to write...
We should get both Kirk and BG back and then just have people trade barbs all gamethread about whether Ben’s 1 turnover which happened to be off his leg was his most important stat in a 20 point game, or if it matters that Kirk is shooting 40% from 3 point range since he missed this particular one which was the only important one.
by getting BG or Kirk
I feel like we are going backwards. We should go with new blood.
Thibs got his team a chemistry set for Christmas
by livesinnoahsbasement on Jun 2, 2011 12:45 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
This.
We’re not going to beat Miami with marginal improvements to our perimeter players anyways.
We need to concentrate on beating them on the boards and scoring in the paint.
"The advanced metrics guys do not like Derrick Rose very much." - Bills Simmons podcast 2/4
by RogersPark Kris on Jun 2, 2011 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions
Hey, I'm the only one that wanted to keep all the guys (not Nocioni) on the team.
Since apparently, this is my shtick:
Rose (22) – Hinrich (30)
Hinrich (30) – Gordon (27)
Deng – (25) – James Anderson (22)
Gibson (25) – Tyrus Thomas (24)
Noah (25) – Asik (24)
I’m not sure that’s THAT much worse of a team than the one they have right now. And that shit’s hella scrappy.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Hell yes! ;-)
I don't always block shots, but when I do....I block yours.
Kyle Korver is open as soon as he gets out of his car at the UC. -
Stacey King
If we're looking for extra ball handling and playmaking + defense and shooting, I'd rather get Delonte West than Kirk.
He’s younger and a better playmaker than Kirk. Their defense is about equivalent, to these eyes, and their TS% and eFG% are about the same. West is also a free agent, whereas Kirk would require a trade, where we give up assets that could be used better elsewhere.
by fundamentallysound on Jun 2, 2011 7:03 PM CDT reply actions
the one guy possibly crazier than JR Smith
I’d go Smith if we are taking players with ahem questionable character. But with the expiring CBA, free agents would be harder to get then players via trade.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Jun 3, 2011 10:29 AM CDT up reply actions
I feel special
My basketball future appreciates the concern, no matter how facetious. I actually kind of had fun bopping around the SBNation-verse and making some new friends.
“Not sexy” is probably the best description. I do think it would help simply because the committee thing never seems to work well – you can only put one guy on the floor at a time. On the other hand, maybe the Bulls ought to give the chemistry one more year to grow – the team was massively different this year, plus I expect Thibs will improve with an offseason to ponder stuff.
And I’ve enjoyed the substantially less griping about his contract elsewhere. Other teams don’t have the whole financial history surrounding it, so the fans are willing to look at him as a somewhat overpaid vet rather than in this whole Ben Gordon-Luol Deng-Pax favorite triangle. I’d kind of like to wait to come back till the contract has played out.
I was a little surprised to see you posting about the Hawks in the first person on the Atlanta blog,
but I definitely could see how it would be more fun over there.
It took me a few games to feel that way
It has been a weird season – I had time to adjust to the idea of Washington before the season started, and Bullets Forever is really awesome. Plus, it’s not that hard to chill with a team with few expectations. I still felt like I belonged there after the trade for several games. But I got into Peachtree Hoops as well, and they are an equally awesome group. I still miss the sheer volume of BaB, though, especially now that the offseason is here. Plus, no place else swears like BaB in a gamethread.
If nothing else, this season has taught me how deeply pathological my Kirk fandom is. ;)
lol
its hilarious how any conversation about ben gordon and kirk hinrich quickly turns blogabull into the twilight saga book club….hell u can see the slow transformation in this thread alone, and neither player are on this team (yet)
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
And to think, I thought it all would die out when Ben signed elsewhere.
Should have known that BaB never forgets. I kind of love that people still argue over how the BG contract stuff played out.
whole lotta words for a really bad idea
way overrated. hinrich is a mediocre player. mediocre players make mediocre teams.
if he comes back to the bulls anyway in 2012-13, it will be as a fa signed to replace bogans. while not ideal in any way shape or form, i might be able to live with that move (as i did with bogans).
♫ i've entered a snake of pits with knives in the back of me ♫ can't call you or on you no more when they're attacking me ♫
by marionette on Jun 3, 2011 5:32 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs

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