Rose no better than Westbrook?
Apparently not all of SB Nation is on board with Derrick for MVP, what a surprise.
about 1 year ago
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yeah, BIG SURPRISE ::chortle::
I’m not sure I get the point of adding candidates just for the sake of it. Westbrook is comperable to Rose, but not as good, so by definition he doesn’t belong in the conversation except to make up a conversation.
I suppose the point is more that Rose is not a standout MVP candidate and there are plenty of players having similar seasons. This runs counter to some game-thread comments you’ll find here, but I try not to take those seriously.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 24, 2011 10:26 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
The PG video breakdown made the best case
Westbrook may be better at drawing fouls, but that’s largely because the paint is clear due to Durant. Furthermore, his assists are where they are because of Durant.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Mar 24, 2011 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions
Way to go get 'em, JBJ.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 24, 2011 10:30 AM CDT reply actions 10 recs
Aye caramba, if it only weren't for that 1-day waiting period between joining the SBNation blog and posting...
I could purchase firearms in less time than that.
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
by bullhockey on Mar 24, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's not backing down.
Makes me proud oddly…
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
(Takes bow)
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions
(Applause)
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
Although couldn't we send someone like YaoPao over there? I'm incredibly unequipped for this type of debate
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions
id love for tyger to use his prick powers
on other blogs sometimes, they wouldnt stand a chance.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
The biggest difference between Rose and Westbrook is when they shoot
Even though they both put up a high volume of shots, Westbrook is more apt to shoot the ball early in the shot clock period. On the other hand, Rose is far more patient and willing to let his teammates work for a better shot (although he probably ends up holding the ball too long at times).
Pat Riley is the devil.
I read an interview with Ron Adams (Bulls assistant) not too long ago, and I think he had the best comparison of the two:
I think Derrick is more of a point guard than Russell is. Russell is a capable playmaker, but terrific scorer, terrific offensive rebounder, as is Derrick. Both are terrific athletes. Russell is a marvelous kid, and a top-of-the-line athlete. He’s got Michael Jordan kind of athletic ability and he’s slightly bigger than Derrick, he’s 6’4"ish. Derrick is very similar athletically. Derrick is also a phenomenal athlete. Also, I would say genius, if I can use that word. The real foundation in Derrick’s makeup, which is different from any player that I’ve worked with, is that he has no agenda. He doesn’t go into a game saying I’m averaging 24.5 points per game and I’ve got to score 24.5 points. His approach to the game is phenomenal. Russell has a stronger desire to score. His personality is kind of built around that a little bit more, so I think that separates them some more. From an assist standpoint, both are pretty much at the same statistical point in the top ten in assists. The context in which Russell plays is a more up-and-down the court context, which is helpful for him. We kind of play a different game here. We are a pretty good open court team, but also a pretty good half-court team. I have no doubts that if Derrick were a different kind of person he could lead the league in scoring, His jump shot is coming along well, his three point shot is coming along well. It’s a terrific ride where every night he’s operating against stacked defenses. One advantage Russell has is that Kevin Durant is in front of him, and Kevin Durant is a monster.
I bookmarked it because I thought it was so dead on
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
(Btw, he coached Westbrook for a couple years, which is what makes this so good. Just in case someone didn't know that)
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions
Great article.
I would love to see Rose lead the league in scoring, except for what it would mean for the Bulls as a team – lack of a strong 2nd/3rd option. I have no doubt he is capable of doing anything he desires on a basketball court.
If there's one thing that we are slowly learning about Derrick Rose
it’s that he does not forget.
God help the league if he doesn’t win it this year.
Shit, God help the league if he does.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
I don't really care if he does or doesn't.
It’d be nice, but it really wouldn’t bother me if he didn’t…although the latest slew of “backlash” is kinda making me wish he’d win just for the funnies. Lotsa trolling possibilities if he wins it.
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
TOM ZILLER
i knew it was going to be him. Since the beginng of the season he started that damn irrational mvp power ranking and he refused to give rose credit. As soon as rose for mvp really started to pick up steam he stopped doing those things. He really hates the idea of rose being mvp, Dudes a hater
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 11:33 AM CDT reply actions 2 recs
A big time hater.
That stat-sheet fucker can go to hell. Rose4MVP, and theres nothing that guy can do about it, PER and all that shit be damned.
the my problem with him
hes more like cowherd than he is hollinger on this topic. When rose was putting up the mvp numbers he refused to put rose on his mvp power rankings, now that rose isnt putting up those mvp numbers but the entire media is behind him, he still wont give rose any recognition. So its just downright hating with no real explanation…thats just absurd
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 12:04 PM CDT up reply actions
Rose is putting up insane numbers, though.
25/8/4 are numbers that I think only 8 or 9 other players have ever put up. What did Kobe put up for his MVP season? Likely more points, but less assists. He’s also dominating damn near every game down the stretch and leading a team to 60 wins.
According to...
a Truehoop post. Rose going for 24.6 points, 7.8 assists, and 4.3 rebounds would make him the fifth player in history for those numbers or better.
It's funny how a guy who writes for the Kings bashes Rose after the Bulls just finished destroying Sacramento
He wrote this out of frustration. Just another hater.
hes hated the idea of rose as mvp
since the start of the season, he started this really idiotic mvp power ranking chart, when rose was putting up the numbers of an mvp player he refused to put rose on the list and instead chose guys like dwade who WERENT putting up mvp type numbers to start with. I figured he was going after the story more than the numbers, but then when rose became THE story, he wouldnt put rose on the list because he isnt putting up the numbers.
Also his constant push for k-love is ridiculous, klove is awesome, but mvp?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions
KLove doesn't play a lick of defense
Can anyone find a site where they rank the entire group of NBA starters and find out who has the worst DRtg? I’m guessing Love is in the top 3, if not the worst.
Here we go...
These are just the last bullets from the gun of the Stat nerds. It’s ok. They don’t hate Rose personally, they just hate that Rose offends their basketball senses. He swims against their current of what they feel is really important in gauging a player in this league.
If they really want to find a guy that is killing their argument, it should be Kevin Love. Kevin Love is single handily destroying their concept of what stats should mean in the discussion of greatness in a player. Because if it’s all about stats then by default the Timberwolves have to be better than what they are right now. They just have to be. Truly great players won’t allow their team to be an embarrassment. Which is why Brook Lopez isn’t a true difference maker either. Rose is 22 and God willing going to be around for a long time. He’s the air apparent to Kobe in terms of what defines a great player, wins and production or efficiency. They’re just really pissed about it.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
by Dils on Mar 24, 2011 11:41 AM CDT reply actions 3 recs
It's funny how at some point Kevin Loves added wins total
was greater than Minnesota’s win total. Stat guys like thinking they know stuff that others don’t know, as if the numbers are the holy grail or something. This aint baseball; STFU and watch the damn game, thats really all you need to do.
by dakoose on Mar 24, 2011 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Honestly, if Love won the MVP I would be perfectly happy.
That team might be worse than Cleveland without him. He’s been a monster.
Forgive me, but I think thats idiotic.
Kevin Love will never win an MVP, and furthermore, he will never be in the discussion. And it’s because he simply is not that good. An MVP needs to be capable of being the best player on a damn good team, and KLove doesn’t have what it takes to demand double teams and dominate games when it counts. If he did, Minnesota would surely be better. I’m sorry, but MVP players simply can not allow their teams to be so fucking bad.
It'd be nice if he'd rotate on Defense every once in awhile
instead of waiting for the rebound…
"What do you think, I just dunked my whole career?" Jordan asked Henderson after making a 3.
"You’ve got to miss eventually," Henderson told him.
"That’s what Cleveland said," replied Jordan
yeah he isn't an MVP
but he is a solid second or third option. I think a good fit for him would be Orlando, it would put that team over the top.
I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."
by Rex Grossman on Mar 24, 2011 1:17 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't disagree, I was simply trying to make a point about the subjectivity of the award
and the state of what an “MVP” means in general.
I really do think the Timberwolves would be (even more) insanely bad without him. I’m certainly not saying he’s the best player in the league, but apparently that’s not what this award is about.
Do I think Derrick is deserving of MVP? Yes. Do I think he is the best player in the league? No. Do I think he’s more valuable to the Bulls than Love is to the Wolves? Maybe. My point is simply that there are too many factors that people want to account for and most are subjective. Love is having an amazing season for a terrible team.
Also, it would mean that Lebron didn’t win again. And that’s all I really want.
This is pretty funny
I really do think the Timberwolves would be (even more) insanely bad without him.
What is the difference between being 17-54 bad and insanely bad? I guess it is possible for the Wolves to be even worse, but come on, really?
Applying that logic, how much worse would the Bulls 12th ranked offense be without Derrick Rose? Bad or just insanely bad? Either way, I suppose it speaks volumes for Rose’s value as the team’s primary (and with injuries, frequently the only) offensive threat.
"If the Bulls are healthy it could get ugly." - Joakim Noah
Sorry, this response seems jerky. Not my intention.
"If the Bulls are healthy it could get ugly." - Joakim Noah
But see that's the issue
This isn’t baseball where Andre Dawson can win MVP on a bad Cubs team. This is basketball. This is the sport where one player can make an impression, two players can make a difference, and three players can make a champion.
Guys like Love to me have to show their greatness in not just stats but also wins. Because if not, he may be grabbing rebounds because of their lack of effective big men and opposing teams just letting him get his. I’m a Love fan by the way. I think he could be the third option on a Championship team. But until then, he’s just a hell of a stat stuffer.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
you had me
then you lost me.
It’s certainly likely the Wolves would be worse without Kevin Love. He can’t ‘will’ his team to be better.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 24, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions
He can "will"
his team to not be embarrassing. It’s not to say Love isn’t a good player but I like to think that a truly great player is a difference in more than 17 games in a season.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
I meant to say 'will his TEAMMATES to be better'
but I’m guessing you disagree with that too. How many wins do you think that Rose WILLS from the Rambis-coached Timberwolves?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 24, 2011 2:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Funny I was going to ask you the same thing
Let’s see…Take Rose and replace Love with him and let’s see what we got…
Well all of a sudden the Timberwolves have a PG who can handle the ball so that good for starters. We have Beasley putting in 20 a game and we have more open shot opportunities for guys like Wellington and Johnson. Who knows. maybe Rose could’ve got some use out of Corey Brewer as a running mate…
I’d say the Timberwolves could have about 29-32 wins right now. Considering that Rose won 41 games with VDN as a coach I don’t see why Rambis would be any worse or have anything to do with it. Now take Love and throw him on the Bulls without Rose. What you got?
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
I'm not as good at make-believe
I’ll say they’d have 26 wins. I just made up a number.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 24, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
Dude, the Wolves can't win 41 games with their guards
Their guards are atrocious. They have no SG. They have no PG. They have players that play the position. But they are not productive.
But the team is really rebuilding, shedding salary, going young, and attempting to construct a roster that expects a lockout.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Mar 24, 2011 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Westbrook's really good
but he is another one of those “star” guards who look like superstars because of their team. Rondo and Westbrook fall into that category, where as Rose is a legitimate superstar.
I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."
i dont like such a vague category thinking
but to me mvp means you have the mvp type numbers, you have a dominant “elite teaem”, you are the most important piece on your team, and you havea great media story (backing)
Lebron cant be it because honestly, i think wade is far more dangerous as a player and should be the alpha dog of that team. If lebron is injured wade can take his share as well as bosh and they are in the same situation (the heat were far more dangerous and closer to beating us in the game without lebron than any of the ones with)
K-love certainly has the numbers, but will he every be a focal point of the other teams defensive or offensive strategy (except for KEEP HIM OFF THE DAMN BOARDS) hes never going to draw a double team, hes never going to just take over.
TO me howard, dirk, and rose are the three guys in the league deserving of the award. Dirk wont get it because of health and because the media is scared to ever give him the mvp again after that goldenstate disaster. Howard, he for some reason doesnt have the media backing cuz everyone wants him to be the dpoy. So its rose for that reason
westbrook, hes not the most important piece on his team (at least its arguable) he isnt given the most attention by defenses, his team is doing well but isnt given the "elite’ status, mostly the media (and id say rightfully so) doesnt seem him as BETTER than derrick rose, screw the numbers.
I also hate that no one likes to point out that hey, ROSE IS DOUBLE TEAMED RIGHT OFF THE BAT IN GAMES, tell me when westbrook just gets double teamed at some point in the game
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I like how Dils put it: Rose is a great combo of efficiency, production and wins
You put those things together to form a candidate.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 24, 2011 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't like your MVP criteria
Lebron cant be it because honestly, i think wade is far more dangerous as a player and should be the alpha dog of that team.
I agree with this, but I disagree with your support:
(the heat were far more dangerous and closer to beating us in the game without lebron than any of the ones with)
Because if your going to go there, you also indirectly validate the Rose haters who bring up the fact that a Rose-less Bulls team was one John Lucas away from beating a good Dallas team. Fact is, the Bulls lost that game, just like the Heat lost 3 games against the Bulls and they were all close games. With or without Lebron, as it stands, the Heat couldn’t beat the Bulls and “closeness to winning” doesn’t make a Lebron-less team better.
Other than than, I agree with the rest of what you said.
I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."
by Rex Grossman on Mar 24, 2011 2:22 PM CDT up reply actions
good stuff
i just really dont like lebron?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 25, 2011 12:51 AM CDT up reply actions
Also, doen't it seem like most of these people are more concerned with seeing Rose lose, than seeing their guy win?
(other than the Magic blogger who seriously appears to be on the verge of a breakdown if Dwight doesn’t win)
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
That does seem to be happening
Way more articles saying Rose shouldn’t be MVP, than articles strongly stating why someone else should be. It’s probably why Dwight does have the strongest argument to knock off Rose… people seem to be able to put together coherent arguments for Dwight without making it an anti-Rose rant.
Ending the Westbrook for MVP argument in one sentence:
OKC with Westbrook on court: +1.2, off court: +11.0.
by YaoPau on Mar 24, 2011 12:38 PM CDT reply actions 7 recs
u should post this on zillers
“let science into your hearts” crap of an article (and yea he actually used that quote)
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Mar 24, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Eric Maynor for MVP.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 24, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
TS%!!1
Thabo!
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Mar 24, 2011 3:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I think Ziller deleted one of my comments...
something about getting warm fuzzies is an acceptable criteria for MVP.
Cmon Ziller, it was an observation about the mvp voting process. Journalists get their warm fuzzies and then look to the statistics to back that up, not the other way around. I’m glad that people that vote watch the games and go off that before looking at stats, thats how it should be.
you really think the voters watch more NBA games than Ziller?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 24, 2011 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions
He watches a lot of games ?
I’m not really sure who the voters are to be honest…. maybe if national studio guys get votes then yeah, those guys watch a lot of games. The Sam Smith’s of the world probably watch the same games I do, all the home team games and then nationally televised randoms.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions
I see my comment now ?
maybe I was seeing things, but I didn’t think it was there ? I definitely did a double take. I don’t see a response though.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 24, 2011 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions
Damn, you tore that place up JBJ
Bravo!
You always were second best! And in this business, Bub, second best don't *cut* it!
If he wanted to engage in more robust topics than an MVP Ranking
then why go back to the MVP topic at all?
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 24, 2011 4:44 PM CDT reply actions
JBJ for MVP!
never thought i would say that lol
Rose: Who in the blue hell are you?
Rondo: Well
IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO YOU ARE!
nothing quite as satisfying as seeing BaBers fire back on one similar target
i love it.
"I ran into lebron last night, asked him for a dollar. He gave me 75 cents. I was puzzled, then realized he never gives you the fourth quarter"
you mean one that isn't you.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 25, 2011 9:10 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
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