Rose's season vs. Iverson's MVP season
Nicked this from YFBB and others on Twitter. Interesting read, and I'd like to hear some of our resident stat geeks' take on it.
about 1 year ago
ColonelFatheart
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I can see the argument, but there are plenty of statistical differences. Lets start with an easy one.
71 games for Iverson, 69 for Rose, with 12 games to play.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 11:58 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
I got another difference for all yall
“practice”
by kozzer on Mar 23, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
The only issue I have with this comp is that
wasn’t Iverson at least a few years older? I mean, Rose is just now starting to reach his potential, while Iverson was pretty much at the height of his powers. Otherwise, I really don’t have an issue with it. Hell, I loved Iverson as a player. It’s a shame that stats always have to wreck the romantic view of sports. Especially in a sport like basketball, where observing the style, and way a player plays the game is what makes it so much fun. Stats are useful in hoops, don’t get me wrong, but I think they’re a lot more interesting and fun to apply in a sport like baseball.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
He averaged 31.1 pts that year but only 4.6 asts
In terms of scoring, it was his second highest year, in terms of assists his 3rd lowest.
Iverson evolved as a player and you can see that in his stats, but that season was defined by his top 15 games or so, which were seriously eye popping.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 12:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Iverson had 17 games of 40 points or more that season.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions
signature games!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Its part of the story
and the people that vote are story oriented. They want wows not WoWs.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 1:41 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I wish they would show some old Iverson games on NBA TV or something
I’m beginning to forget how he played a little bit
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 23, 2011 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Well
It has been said before that Rose and Iverson draw a ton of similarities as far as playing style, skills (although I would still say Rose is more talented), and even not getting foul calls! That said, there are a couple critical differences.
First, Rose has 54% TS were as Iverson was 52%. That’s a solid difference. Second, Rose is averaging 7.8ast and 4.2 reb. Iverson averaged 4.6 and 3.8. Finally, Iverson averaged over 30 ppg where Rose is averaging 25 ppg. I understand what he is saying about their offensive “value”, but in the end, Rose is the better all around player. All Iverson brought to the table was scoring.
A few additional thoughts. It’s called the MVP, not the best player in the NBA award. Without LeBron, there is still an first team All-NBA player in Wade and Bosh. Without Rose, the Bulls would have Boozer and Deng. That’s certainly a big difference. Finally, the plus for us Bulls fans is that Rose is putting up this season in his 3rd year at the age of 22. Iverson did this at the age of 25. Rose still has a few more years before he hits his prime. LeBron showed marked improvements all the way through his sixth season. Rose started a year later, but even still he should be showing noticeable improvements for the next two seasons. If Rose doesn’t win MVP this year, he should get one at some point in what looks to be an extremely promising career.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
You know what's funny though?
If he doesn’t win it this year, I can easily see him going his career without winning it. The same silly stuff that is benefiting him this year (being the new kind on the block, having the “surprise” team, killing expectations), are the things that will hurt him in future campaigns when he doesn’t have them in his favor. So, in a weird way, this award will be awarding him for future performance, assuming he maintains this trajectory.
Let me put it this way: For Rose to win this award in the future, he’ll have to play much better than this, on a better team, with no one like Lebron or Howard having a better season, while also having no newcomer (like he is the year), come and steal his shine a little. While I definitely wouldn’t doubt Rose having better seasons in the future, the odds of all those things coming together again in his favor are probably somewhat slim. So, even if you don’t think he’s the MVP this year, if you want to see him ever win it, you might want to really start rooting for it to happen.
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 23, 2011 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
Yep, thats why I'm rooting for him.
Realistically I think it should be Howard, Nowitski, or LeBron, but since I don’t think Rose will likely ever win it again (even if he’s better and the Bulls are better), I want him to win now.
In the end, it’s obviously somewhat silly, but its fun to root for our guy to get recognition. And since I’m a weird person, I’ve already thought about how Rose winning it this year will be a step towards his eventual HOF induction, inclusion on an updated “Greatest 50” list, etc.
by NoVertical on Mar 23, 2011 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Great point
He will get much better, but it’s the story this year that is going to win it. Assuming the Bulls make a deep playoff run, it’s not going to have that same turnaround feel next year. In the end it’s such a silly award anyways.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
Yeah... no, sorry.
Rose will win this year in debatable fashion. But you forget what year 5 is going to be. Year 5 is when he becomes the ‘True Guard’ and in that year, well, the MVP is already wrapped up even now. Don’t forget that I’ve called this 2 years in advance. It’s inevitable.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 23, 2011 4:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I've thought the same thing
though I never put it down. He’ll never have this much buzz unless he leads a 70 win team or something. Even then, as long as Thibs is the coach, it’ll be about defense and teamwork.
I'm not sure the Bulls w/o Rose couldn't beat the Heat w/o LeBron
Haven’t we spent all season calling the Heat bench a joke and assigning lady-parts to Bosh?
and your line of reasoning really makes a case for Dwight Howard, not Rose.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Kidding right?
I’m not sure the Bulls w/o Rose couldn’t beat the Heat w/o LeBron
That Wade kid is still pretty good.
sure, and the Bulls 2-10 are pretty good as well
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 12:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree but
without an engine, your car is useless.
If you want to argue they could get lucky and win one game in that scenario, sure, I agree. I don’t think the Bulls would prevail in a 7 game playoff series in such a scenario however.
Derrick Rose has been very good defensively this season,
but so has CJ. The defense would likely be just as good without DRose. The offense would take a big step back, but so would MIA without Lebron.
by dakoose on Mar 23, 2011 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
And don't rule out what LeBron does for that MIA defense
So much is made of the Big Three and heir buckets, but they’re 5th in D, and that has nothing to do with Bosh and little to do with Wade.
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
Yeah I agree
Watson/Lucas/Pargo platoon is nasty to think about, but they still have Deng, Brewer, Boozer, Korver, Noah, Asik, and Taj.
Miami without Lebron is Wade, Bosh, then they still have a start a weak PG unit of Bibby/Chalmers/House? who are I think par with Watson/Lucas and then have to give minutes to Jones/Miller at the 3 and another gaping hole at the center position. Not to mention Lebron moves the ball up the court as well.
I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."
by Rex Grossman on Mar 23, 2011 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I was more assuming a league-average PG
or something not needing Pargo or Lucas, yuck.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
and back to LeBron
The Heat just laid a beatdown on the Hawks a few days ago, and LeBron had 43 pts on 21 shots (not much else, though).
I’m not sure if it was SIGNATURE enough for Trey23, wasn’t on TNT.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 12:28 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Ours was bigger.
Plus Rose distributed his stats better. 43 is huge, and the .762 is amazing. But there wasn’t much other than that. Plus, our ORtg was higher, and the opponent’s ORtg was lower in our game.
I still think that Dwight and Dirk are ahead of Rose right now, simply because their teams turn into scrubs without them there. But Rose is quickly closing the gap, and if the Bulls end up #1 East, #2 overall, with 4 games or less behind the Spurs, then Rose should end up with it.
Dirk is falling. So are the Mavs (5-5 last 10 games).
Kobe is closing [in]. Dwight is still very much right there. Although I don’t see him (Dwight) winning, considering his team has already lost more games this year than they have in the previous 2 seasons. They’re on pace for 52 wins this year after having won 59 in the last 2. Orlando has like the 9th best record in the league, right?
No chance Dirk wins
It’s between Rose, Howard and (surprisingly) Kobe. The writers are simply not giving Lebron the award this year. No way. Howard is awesome, but you just don’t see much support for him outside the blogosphere where stats are usually king. I actually could see Kobe coming on strong and taking it from Rose, but it’s a huge long shot at this point
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 23, 2011 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Kobe taking it down the stretch is interesting....
Don’t you think if the Bulls win 58 or more games that Rose pretty much has it wrapped up, though?
If the Bulls go into a bit of a tailspin (with Rose shooting poorly), I could see Kobe being the guy to get it. I think Howard is still (inaccurately) perceived as being offensively limited by the media guys.
Kobe and Rose's seasons are highly comparable
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
True
Honestly, Dwight Howard should be MVP. That Magic team truly is craptastic without him. He has also put up MVP like numbers. I am curious if all the technical fouls are hurting his cause.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
by DRose01 on Mar 23, 2011 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I mostly agree, but have trouble saying a guy should be MVP when he's a liability in late game situations
I know Shaq had the same difficulties (ie hack-a-shaq), but he was so much more dominant on offense, and at least as good on defense.
I always thought that argument was lame (He's a "liability at the end of games")
Give me that handicap every day of the week. He’s still dominating defensively, and he makes up for the missed free throws by basically never missing on any field goal attempts
I didn't want to type this sentence, the force from an Omer Asik dunk made my fingers do it.
by Juiceboxjerry on Mar 23, 2011 3:29 PM CDT up reply actions
Why is it lame?
You can hack-a-Dwight (and many teams have) before he even gets into a position to score the ball. Can you name a game he’s taken over late?
That doesn't make any sense.
His dominant defense and high FG% mean nothing late in the game when you’re losing. Unless you can guarantee that Orlando will be up through 3 quarters then being a liability at the line is very significant unless you are partnered with Kobe.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 23, 2011 4:59 PM CDT up reply actions
Dominant defense means everything late in a game when you're losing...
How do you not see why?
And a high FG% makes you less likely to be losing or need highlight reel clutchiness. If his FT% were such a greater liability, his TS% would reflect this. Sure, Howard’s bigger and it’s why that FG% is valuable, but you don’t get more points on the scoreboard for being smaller; therefore, bigger and more efficient is always more valuable than a lot smaller and slightly less efficient.
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
TS% is a statistic.
It makes no sense to say that it’s not a liability just because it doesn’t effect one generally meaningless statistic. If you cannot go to your best player late in games on the offensive end then it is clearly a liability.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 24, 2011 10:58 AM CDT up reply actions
And in regards to the defense
If you’re down after 3 quarters, your 4th quarter defense can be as great as you want it to be but you’re still playing catch-up. At that point, are you going to give the ball to Nelson who can create shots for himself and make his free throws, give the ball to one of the 3-point shooters or feed it down low to Howard who will just get hacked and make 1 of 2 free throws? (that’s if he’s not turning the ball over. His TOV/game should not be in the PG range.
Road to the Number 1 Seed Assassination Missions:
Kings: Mission Accomplished. Bulls dominant, Knicks useless. Tied with Boston.
Hawks: Mission Accomplished. Be afraid, league. Be very afraid. 1/2 game up on Boston again.
Grizzlies:
Bucks:
Congratulations to the Central Division Champions: The Chicago Bulls!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Mar 24, 2011 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions
The only thing I have against Howard is that he doesn't really make his teammates better
by Stacey_Is_King on Mar 23, 2011 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
What does this mean?
You just made that up, didn’t you? If not, compared to what? And please prove this, relative to others.
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
Well Dwight is playing in an era where he can dominate
But still hasn’t made his teammates better because they’re the ones feeding him the ball. Is he a great passer? Is he so skilled offensively that he demands a double team so his wing players can get better shots? I’m not sure he is and in that way he’s not making his teams better.
The formula is to just give him surrounding outside shooters why he dominates on the inside. Well the Magic made a huge trade and his team is still sitting in 4th place. I think Howard is great but I don’t think he’s in the class of say an Hakeem Olajawon who I believe was the only Center in the last 20 years to win a title without that dynamic wing player and that’s because you were able to feed the entire offense through Olajawon, that doesn’t seem to be the case with Howard. His numbers are great and so is his defense but his lack of a mature offensive game does keep him limited in what he can do for his teammates. It’s almost as if they are two separate entities out there.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
He makes his teammates better on defense though
He covers up for his teammates mistakes, which allows them to be so much more aggressive out on the perimeter. The fact that Orlando was consistently an elite defensive team despite starting Rashard Lewis and Hedo Turkoglu is pretty much proof of that.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Mar 24, 2011 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Howard makes that team craptastic
Orlando is a revolving door of aging all-stars and hot shooting role players. Which player beyond Hedo had his hey day in Orlando? Nelson for sure but he’s always been there. Courtney Lee, yes. It just doesn’t seem that Howard lifts his team beyond what he does statistically.
With the Howard the statistics are the whole MVP story. With Rose the statistics are the starting point. But its the late game heroics, the big shots in big games, the willing the team to victory (especially in the first half of the season when the team wasn’t in sync), the run stopping, the highlite plays, the willingness to get all his teammates involved (can passing to Bogans be an argument for MVP or against it?) and the commitment to putting effort into all phases of the game.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 2:42 PM CDT up reply actions
Thank you Thank you Thank you
I couldn’t state the argument against Howard any better!
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
The Heat literally have no depth
They have a depth chart, but no depth what so ever. Compare Wade and Bosh to Boozer and Deng, but surrounding Boozer and Deng are, oh I don’t know, pretty darn good ball players. If a Rose-less Bulls played a 7 game series against a Lebron-less Heat, I’d expect the Bulls to win in at most 5 games (I think Wade might will the Heat to a win.)
Frankly I’m starting to get turned off on the whole “without Rose” or “without Lebron” arguments and who is better. I think its at best a two horse race between Rose and Howard for the MVP. My problem with Lebron as the MVP is how he isn’t making he team better. Wade and Bosh are polished players and Bosh looks terrible compared to his Raptor years. Miller looks pretty bad too but I blame his struggles with injury. Chalmers is still crap and has had no marginal improvement despite have 3 allstars on the court with him. Lebron just doesn’t mesh with the team and I think that my problem with him when I consider a MVP.
I remember once former Bull Dave Corzine staring at a stat sheet after a loss when he had one rebound and Michael Jordan offering, "One more rebound than a dead man."
by Rex Grossman on Mar 23, 2011 1:07 PM CDT up reply actions
I thought the idea of a 'lack of established standout candidate' was interesting
comparing the dropoff (at least by B-R’s numbers) of Shaq in ’01 opening the door to what LeBron is doing this season relative to his previous two.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 12:18 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
related
Lakers fan remembers Shaq and speaks up for Dwight.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Mar 23, 2011 2:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
How about, instead of "Most Valuable Player," the NBA goes with the even vaguer "Player of the Year."
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 12:35 PM CDT reply actions
"player lots of people like who has the most value, with value meaning something secret and apart from a dictionary definition"
by NoVertical on Mar 23, 2011 1:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Yes
If you request a clarification from the NBA, the league office literally replies with voter discretion nonsense. They like the drama and noise adding relevancy to the league at any point in the season. Good business, you gotta’ admit.
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
Does this mean that we're going to lose to LA in the Finals?
by chicity773 on Mar 23, 2011 12:40 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
This Bulls team is a helluva lot better than that Sixers team. So it could go either way.
Still, could someone make an argument that Iverson’s MVP was a little more deserved than Rose’s prospective one since Rose is playing on a better, deeper team?
Just throwing that out there. Not necessarily endorsing that “reasoning.”
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions
Shaq was an incomparable force, but I think player-for-player, this Lakers team is better.
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 1:14 PM CDT up reply actions
I disagree.
Kobe isn’t the player he was then and Gasol is nowhere near what Shaq was in his prime. Odom and Bynum are good players and Fisher and Artest are nice pieces, but the Shaq/Kobe Lakers teams scare me more. But that might just be me.
I didn't compare Gasol to Shaq.
In fact, I said, “Shaq was an incomparable force.”
I just think this Lakers team is deeper and more talented than that ’01 squad. And, even without Shaq, this team has more overall length and height inside.
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
But noone who could even be close to guarding 2001 Shaq
plus, as dakoose said, 2001 Kobe > 2011 Kobe
Honestly, the rest of the teams are a wash.
But likewise, Shaq couldn't guard all those big guys for these current Lakers.
Horry and a broken-down Ho Grant are going to check Odom and Gasol? Then what, you switch Shaq on to Gasol, and then you have to worry about Grant or Horry guarding the 7’1" Bynum?
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Well...
You think Gasol’s gonna do anything near the rim while Shaq is in the game? Odom’s pretty tough and versatile, so I think he’d be effective. Who knows about Bynum. Every time I see him play (which ain’t that often given how much he’s injured) he’s either awesome or invisible. So I don’t know what to think there.
In any case, it’s not like I’m saying the 2011 Lakers are chopped liver. They are an elite team, for sure. I just think that a better Kobe and an in-his-prime Shaq plus a relatively equal rest of the roster gives the 2001 version a small but significant advantage.
But whatever. Who cares? Rose will probably be MVP and the Bulls are just as good as anyone in the league (including those Lakers)! :)
@colonell Shaq in his prime going against gasol and bynum and hell throw odom in is a walk in the park for shaq!
You forget he had two face the twin towers back then.
robinson was 35 in 2001. not exactly prime years there.
"Omer's 3rd dunk last night
sent me far enough back in time to capitalize on Morehead State’s win yesterday. Thank you Omer!"
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he might be ok."
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Stern told the room he knows where "the bodies are buried" in the NBA, witnesses recounted, because he had buried some of them himself.
Besides, if any coach knew the way to D up a team featuring Shaq, it's Phil Jackson.
And Shaq was lucky to have Phil as his coach those years.
"Smith stripped. Smith stopped! Smith stopped again by Pippen!"
by ColonelFatheart on Mar 23, 2011 1:37 PM CDT up reply actions
2001 Kobe was way different than the current version.
Kobe peaked around 2007 2008
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 1:39 PM CDT up reply actions
The hell with comparing players
Try comparing teams.
Without Iverson, that Sixers team would have been lucky to win 12 games
Knowing that Rose is already comparable to Iverson at 22 with the squad & coach we have in place, that’s what really makes me smile
by Option27 on Mar 23, 2011 1:27 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
You win post of the thread
I write "Load O' Bull" at ChicagoNow & tweet a lot. I also use a lot of obscene language. I do so at "Load O' Bull," Twitter, while I watch Bulls games, and in my tweets about the Bulls games I'm watching.
I think Rose is comparable to Iverson
because of the type of team he plays on, not the type of player he is. Rose is doing whatever is necessary for this team to win. If he had a consistent scoring SG he would probable be 20/12 player as oppose to a 24/8 player. He can actually play the PG position at a high level. Iverson was a scorer, a flat out scorer and that’s what he did best. His team was terrible offensively it terms of options as well so it complimented his scoring ability.
There’s seems to be a lot of reasoning and rationalizing over why Rose will win MVP and soon there will come the argument of if him being the worst to ever win it. I guess I’m in the minority because I think this has been one of the most convincing years of a MVP candidate. It’s like people refuse to wrap their head around the idea that Rose may very well be the best player on the best team in the league this season and he’s having a hell of a year doing it. Yes Howard is having a great year, I get it and so is Dirk and so is Lebron but if they are more deserving of winning MVP why are they all looking up at Rose in the standings?
None of these players have had any more adversity as Rose as far as their teams are concerned. Also it’s not as if Rose is having some sub par season statistically. If I give the award to Lebron then he better be clutch when it matters. If I give the award to Howard because of the year he’s having then it needs to be an historic year at the position to justify giving it to him seeing that his team is 4th in the conference. The only guy other than Rose to give it to would be Kobe and he has Gasol and Odom and an established team. I guess the question is could you justify giving that award to any other player who’s team is worse?
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
by Dils on Mar 23, 2011 2:14 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
I agree with you on the Teams being similar
they are the only two successful defense first, point guard scorer (well, what the fuck was Eric Snow, I guess he was the point guard of that team).
The formula for that Larry Brown team was more dramatically tipped towards defense first with one dynamic scorer, Iverson scored 40 or more points 17 times, and that was by design! It happened an additional 6 times in the playoffs.
Iverson was a total ball hog. Everything went through Iverson, and that was the plan that year. Its the plan for Rose too, except Rose isn’t a ball hog. When Rose is running the offense, everyone gets touches and Rose makes the right basketball play consistently (beyond the occasional 3rd quarter 3point heat check). When Carlos Boozer passes out of a double team, Rose swings it. When the Bulls are trying to move the ball side to side, Rose moves it side to side. When the Bulls need to make a series of passes in order to safely entry the ball to Boozer in the post, Rose plays his part.
In short, Rose keeps the offense as a whole humming and he gets his points in the flow of the offense. That was not Iverson’s role at all.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 2:31 PM CDT up reply actions
I agree
AI in 2001 (was the SG):
25.5 FGA/game
45% eFG
4.6 ast
3.3 to
Rose:
20 FGA/game
48% eFG
7.8 ast
3.4 to
So Rose is a point guard, with significantly more assists and the same amount of turnovers, shoots at a higher percentage, and shoots less shots.
While their stats are somewhat similar, and they are (were in AI’s case) great at penetrating to rim, they play with comepletely different styles. Rose is much more fundamentally sound (heh) – especially defensively where AI wasn’t that good but gambled in passing lanes – and still has room for improvement where 2001 was AI’s best year (arguably).
AI was during more for lesser teams in 04 05 and 06 but thats a different debate I guess.
by JockstrapNoah on Mar 23, 2011 2:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting from their point of view
I have a huge problem with their last graphic. Rose plays the entire first quarter against starters. He then sits out the first 6 minutes of the second while the one of the best defensive units in the NBA comes in to play against the other teams bench who are usually far inferior to our 5. Rose’s top 5 floor units in terms of minutes have been…
1. Rose – Bogans – Deng – Thomas – Boozer (355)
2. Rose – Bogans – Deng – Boozer – Noah (203)
3. Rose-Bogans-Deng-Gibson-Noah (194)
4. Rose-Brewer-Deng-Gibson-Asik (104)
5. Rose-Korver-Deng-Thomas-Boozer (95)
Rose’s top lineup by a bunch has featuredthe two worst pick and roll defenders the Bulls have. The Bulls play a very aggressive scheme against the pick and roll and playing with those two guys a bunch hurts him a ton. Rose has played more than 500 minutes this season with the Boozer-Thomas frontcourt and not anywhere near that amount with the Gibson-Noah, Gibson-Asik, or Asik-Noah frontcourt. He has also played a bunch more with Bogans than Brewer. Brewer is a much better defender. In short, Rose has played a ton with the Bulls worst defenders. I am not saying he is an all-NBA defender, but to judge him based on that chart is silly.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
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