The search for a Shooting Guard: if not an upgrade, then what?
After days of reading vacillating degrees of acquisitions for the Bulls, an act that perhaps reached its low point with the recent report that the Bulls could stay internal at SG and instead acquire a backup PG like TJ Ford, I'm starting to come around to something: What really constitutes an upgrade at SG for the Bulls?
What I've sometimes caught my mind doing is being in that anybody-but-Bogans mindset, as he was technically the starter at the position. But Bogans famously played few minutes, and that spot was instead mostly manned by CJ Watson, Ronnie Brewer, and Kyle Korver, the latter two being the options at the end of games and in those backbreaking final quarters against the Heat in the playoffs.
The Bulls can start a better SG simply by not re-signing Bogans, or re-signing him and telling Thibs to cut out that starting nonsense. And then adding TJ Ford or someone similar isn't that bad of an idea: the Bulls could use a 3rd PG who'd help spell Rose and allow Watson to soak up more SG minutes.
But that wouldn't be enough of an upgrade at the position. I look at the need at that position from two issues:
- The single-possession problem of Rose being on the floor with nobody else who can create shots or really even create movement. Especially evident in the Heat series, if Rose is trapped oftentimes plan B was nonexistent.
- The entire-season problem of Rose having to be the ballhandler, facilitator, and scorer on every possession of every minute he played, and the requirement for him to play so many minutes in the first place.
Are those issues really solved by some of the more middling names we've heard recently than it would by reshuffling the guards currently on the roster? On an absolute level I'd rather play Vince Carter than Keith Bogans, but I'd also rather play Ronnie Brewer than Vince Carter.
And I do believe it could indeed hurt to bring in another body who's good enough to want minutes but not good enough to seize them. Brewer/Korver/Watson all deserve time too, and if you bring in a 4th SG on their level it may be enough to breed discontent for not much of a reward.
My preferred plan (and this was reintroduced to my consciousness on the recent Bulls Beat podcast) is trading for an overpaid (which means, available) pseudo-star like Iguodala, Ellis (good FanPost on that here), Mayo, or Gordon. it's not just some kind of principle that drives the desire to spend more this offseason on an upgrade, it's also the idea that if you're going to go for a better SG, make sure he's better to the point where the roster and coach knows it. So when we fantasize over our next matchup with Miami we'll know who's definitely on the floor in crunch time, not wishing we could combine our existing pieces into super-SG Kylie Brewver.
Other links (and know your fanposts/fanshots) about SGs and more from Tuesday:
- Yesterday I mentioned the craving of some juicy rumor from a national beat writer, but I don't think this one from Chris Broussard does the trick. I'd be very happy if the Bulls could sign Brandon Roy as a FA, but the 'dream' part of this rumor is nearly impossible given that he's very likely to be claimed on secondary waivers. For example, by the Warriors.
- Tom Haberstroh at ESPN labels Jamal Crawford as the worst fit for the Bulls, saying he's too ball-dominant. I don't think it'd be the 'worst' option at all (is the increasingly statuesque Jason Richardson much more of a help?), but Crawford may be out of MLE range anyway.
- Kurt Thomas is reportedly preferring a return to the Bulls over his 2nd choice, the Knicks. 2012 may be one-year-too-late on Thomas, but I thought so last year and he proved that wrong.
- Tom Ziller has a masterlist of restricted and unrestricted free agents at the mothership.
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i think tmac is the most realistic and sensible option at this point
cheap. attainable. with a chance to be exactly the shooting guard we need if he is indeed rehabbed and healthy now
Should've traded for Melo.
I'm warming up to TMac to solve issue #1
As it’s possible that maybe he could be the best talent you could put out there in a playoff crunch-time situation.
But that’d only be after some very careful minutes-management (in this compressed season no less) to keep his knees from turning to dust.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 29, 2011 11:54 PM CST up reply actions
why doesnt he solve #2?
hes a capable ballhandler.
i think hes passable as a facilitator (certainly cannot be worse than cj)
and he can be a legit scorer on some nights i think if hes really healthy you mention
Should've traded for Melo.
I'm figuring he won't be able to play enough minutes
but I suppose if we’re keeping everyone else he really wouldn’t have to.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 12:06 AM CST up reply actions
i dont think its beyond the realm of possibility for us to expect him to play somewhere around 20min a night
although granted this season’s wacky scheduling could screw with a guy whos just coming back from surgery
Should've traded for Melo.
T-Mac would likely be a chemistry disaster
He could work on a team with some veterans like Boston or Dallas (not that they need him) who tell him to STFU now and then, and who he might listen to — not a lot of guys on the bulls he’s taking advice from though.
You’d have to double Kurt Thomas’ money because he’d have two jobs.. Backup center, and calming McGrady the fuck down
by Bulls_Bremen on Nov 30, 2011 2:44 AM CST up reply actions
where are you getting this from?
from what happened in detroit last year? that team was a wreck and i can sure as hell tell you it wasnt because of tmac
sure hes been used to being the alpha dog in most of his playing career but do you have any evidence to suggest that he cant adapt to a supporting role now that hes older and his body has been a little worn down?
Should've traded for Melo.
by sin on Nov 30, 2011 3:04 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
you think he won’t pose a chemistry risk then?
by Bulls_Bremen on Nov 30, 2011 6:33 AM CST up reply actions
do you have any evidence to suggest that he cant adapt to a supporting role now that hes older and his body has been a little worn down?
To be fair to Bulls_Bremen, can you provide evidence to the contrary other than speculation? I mean all cause he’s getting old and worn down doesn’t mean his mind is changing. So kind of a double-standard question don’t you think.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
"Brian Dawkins is always 100% Eagles related."--macjack09 & BGN Nation
he came and basically tried out for the team last year
and after being rejected, he is suggesting he still wants to play for the Bulls. Last season, after being a one time league leader in scoring, he changed his game to basically become Detroit’s most effective PG. If this doesn’t sound like a superstar who has checked his ego at the door, I don’t know what does. He was always arrogant, but I never heard he was selfish and I’ve never heard of teammates hating him.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 9:50 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
word.
Guilty Simpson should be our starting SG
by Rose Colored Goggles on Nov 30, 2011 1:36 PM CST up reply actions
His play at Detroit last year is evidence for me
If he can play 20 minutes a night on a non-playoff contending Detroit team where there were no stars and the coach randomly juggled minutes, he can certainly do it on a title contending Bulls team that has the reigning mvp, and 3 other players that will get significant all star consideration. His usg% was only 18.6 last year which would have put him 4th on the Bulls, and only .3 above Kyle Korver. Clearly, he doesn’t expect or need to dominate.
Plus he’s indicated that he wants to be here more than anywhere else, which gives him even more incentive to make it work.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 11:15 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
I think TMac would be a good for the Bulls in a "creator off the bench" role
But I’m not sold on him as our starting SG. I think, on the whole, Brewer’s a better player.
Pat Riley is the devil.
he would be one hell of a 6th man
and a great ‘closer’ at the sg spot. He isnt completely useless on defense, and in the last 5 min of the game i think he would work well.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 30, 2011 11:20 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I don't think it matters which of them Thibs chooses to start
as long as Tracy is available in crunch time to make defenses pay for any strategy that involves forcing Rose to give the ball up. I could see Tracy starting, but Brewer being the first reserve in the game. If they’re both on the team, and are both put into the game in situations and lineups that play to their strength, I don’t think it matters who’s better.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 11:21 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
agreed, if we can say TMac is definitely in the crunch-time lineup, that works
I’m just sick of the situation where nobody knows who’s with Rose at the end of games, and choosing between Brewer and Korver each produces their own problems
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 1:32 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Bulls declined to sign McGrady last year
What would be different this season? He’s older.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 6:30 AM CST up reply actions
Ah.
But he is wiser, no?
New signature coming...but its a process.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2011 8:12 AM CST up reply actions 5 recs
this was the sliest comment I've seen in a while.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
but he had an unexpectedly good season
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's further away from his surgery, arguably more recovered.
by arjoseph on Nov 30, 2011 10:13 AM CST via mobile up reply actions 1 recs
A combination of everyone above me
Further recovered from microfracture surgery, he’s proven he can subvert his ego to the team, proven he can still play at a high level in spurts, and the Bulls are more desperate for someone of his skill set than they were a year ago.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 11:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Can't we get a SG with the MLE and TMac with the vet minimum?
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 30, 2011 8:57 AM CST up reply actions
Until there is no roster spot for Bogans
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 10:09 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
if we can't a single good SG
I think signing TMac and someone like Marcus thornton is a very good option.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
What
Um, Marcus Thornton is not playing behind TMac. Thornton is a very good player and would be a great two guard option for us, I don’t think he’s being discussed because he’s a) somewhat under the radar for a good player and b) is restricted, and it would be extremely difficult for us to get him, same as Afflalo. But if we get Buckets, there is no need for TMac.
by Gentleman Jim on Nov 30, 2011 7:21 PM CST up reply actions
i never said Thornton would be behind T-Mac
In my mind, they are both bench players Thornton is good but Sac went out and drafted Jimmer despite having him. He only started a handful of games at the end of the season for a bad team. He is a 6.2-6’3 sg who is an explosive scorer but doesn’t play D. I don’t believe Marcus Thornton is a starter for a championship team at this point in his career.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 11:12 PM CST up reply actions
I will be really freaking pissed
if JR cheap’s out like normal and refuses to go into the tax with this bulls team. Though I can’t say I will be shocked by it
NBA TEAMS AREN'T PROFITABLE
Clear Eyes, Full Hearts, Cha-pu
by chapuforyou on Nov 30, 2011 8:47 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I still think
the best option would be to find a way to work out a sign and trade for Afflalo, Young, experienced, smart, knows and is accepting of his role, and eliminates the need for all of the offense for defense switching late in close games.
I didn't follow affalo much. Can he rotate the ball?
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 30, 2011 8:58 AM CST up reply actions
you mean like the 'tornado'?
is this a new requirement to becoming a Bull? did I miss the memo?
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 9:02 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
As soon as I posted I thought
damn, that’s gonna be followed by a lousy joke
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 30, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions
lousy jokes are my trade
if I don’t laugh at me, no one will.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 9:07 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions 3 recs
doesnt have the skill set
afflalo is a nice player, he is a good defender, a good shooter, and has a good attitude, everything paxson loves, the problem is he doesnt have the skill set the bulls need which is a player that can break down a defender and create his own shot. afflalo is not particularly good at this. he is also not the greatest ball handler, which is also what the bulls need. he will be a nice pick up but he is nothing to trade gibson or asik for, while overpaying him. there are better skill set options out there for the bulls, unfortunately some of them come with baggage so the bulls wont sign them.
by delwonka on Nov 30, 2011 6:26 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
brign back gordon
he shines in the 4th and in the clutch , he isnt doing great since he left but i bet he would be good again here. he doesnt need to start but give him good minutes , i think this would help us alot. him and rose on O would be awesome, on D is the problem but with deng noah taj/asik in there it wouldnt be much of a problem just dont play him and boozer together
Rams Bulls and Mets allllllllll day also i do love white castle
by G unit Rams on Nov 29, 2011 11:10 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
I agree we need Gordon...Eric Gordon
i know he’ll never be available but neither will afflalo. we can dream
...and we're back
by paddyfairview on Nov 30, 2011 10:01 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
come on guys
i am really the only one that misses all the great moments he gave us. winning games in the 4th like it was backyard bball
Rams Bulls and Mets allllllllll day also i do love white castle
by G unit Rams on Nov 30, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions
Everybody loved those moments
But most of us care about the current team and who’s the best fit now. If you’re not grading Ben on a curve, he’s pretty far down the list of players to target.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
impossible
eric gordon would be great, but ben gordon wouldnt be a bad pick up either. he is overpaid, but he has the offensive skill set the bulls need. his defense and size is troubling but his scoring and shooting are exactly what the bulls need.
Crawford kinda scares the hell out of me
But the Heat pose a problem distinct from all the other problems that should be priority #1. Signing Afflalo would certainly help the Bulls throughout the regular season, and we’d be a better team overall, since his skillset fits in so well with the scheme we have on offense and D. Except then we run into the Heat, and once LeBron decides Rose doesn’t get to do anything on offense anymore [in the last 6 minutes, or earlier], it’s over. It’s pretty clear the roster, as constructed, has no answer. So we really need someone who can create some offense as a secondary offense. One of those infuriating high-usage, middling-efficiency players [whether at SG or a combo guard] are exactly what the Bulls need.
lebron stopped rose for a few games, lets not think the same result will happen, now and forevermore
rose will kick his ass this year, kthanx…..
I think that is Rose's biggest hurdle
Teams are just going to guard him with their SF.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 10:10 AM CST up reply actions
Likewise...
Lebron’s biggest hurdle will the opposition’s point guard…like Barea
New signature coming...but its a process.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2011 11:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't think its Rose's hurdle to get over
If the opposing team guards your point guard with their small forward, you pass the ball to your small forward and take advantage of the mismatch.
Luol is definitely good enough to do that, he just didn’t get the ball at the end of those games.
by darksmokepuncher on Nov 30, 2011 11:47 AM CST up reply actions
I think when they were doing that, it was a Wade-Miller-LeBron lineup, so Deng didn't have that great of a mismatch.
But I don’t totally remember, either.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
wade was on him
at least at points. and it seemed like he wasn’t taking advantage of it that well even when he did have the ball. but yeah, i mean deng should be able to exploit that most of the time, and he should be able to find a way to take advantage of it against wade too normally.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
Wade is a great defender tho
and it didn’t help that our bigs were not imposing any respect in that series. They really close the wings
by JustAnotherFan on Dec 1, 2011 7:49 AM CST up reply actions
still
luol has like 5" on the guy and at least that large of an advantage in standing reach. he should be able to take more advantage of wade than he did.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
by Jaina on Dec 1, 2011 9:03 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I dont see how that's a problem unique to the Heat
the team needs a shot creator. they just happen to have enough hard hat/lunchpail to win a lot with a flawed roster
...and we're back
by paddyfairview on Nov 30, 2011 10:03 AM CST up reply actions
jamal still hasn't figured out what proper shot selection is since he was on the bulls to begin with.
by obnoxious american on Nov 30, 2011 4:25 PM CST up reply actions
Proper shot selection
A lot of times means you aren’t creating your own offense. If you can create offense for yourself and others while always having proper shot selection, you’re more akin to Chris Paul or Steve Nash than you are to anyone else who you might think of as a “creator”.
all i know is,
jamal jacks up dumb shots.
by obnoxious american on Dec 1, 2011 11:11 AM CST up reply actions
I agree with this to an extent.
Crawford wouldn’t have to start either, if in normal situations they don’t use all of their efforts to shut out rose. I think that crawford has a bad rap but as far as needing a high usg player off of the bench/when rose can’t be that guy he is perfect. Unfortunately, he probably won’t be in our price range.
Not to be the pessimist
But, I just don’t see this in any particular way working out in the Bulls favor honestly. Afflalo is likely to be matched if we make an offer for him and even if we do get him we will probably have to over pay for him or the Nuggets will make an offer that requires us to give up too much for him (since he is currently their only SG on the team with Smith and Chandler gone), Young is likely to be matched by Wizards, Thornton is likely to be matched by the Kings, Mayo may require giving up Taj or Asik or even more which it appears the Bulls don’t want to do, Ellis could be a possibility if the Warriors pick up Roy (but they may want Deng or Noah for Ellis), Roy is going to be picked up by someone before he clears waivers, and none of the FAs are really all that spectacular (Crawford, Mac, Richardson).
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
"Brian Dawkins is always 100% Eagles related."--macjack09 & BGN Nation
by macjack09 on Nov 29, 2011 11:13 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
JRich doesnt look that bad
i think rose can work well with him.
JRich would be my pick of the crop
Though I wonder if the struggles he went through with the Magic were just a SVG not using him correctly kind of thing or was Nash really making him look all that much better than he really was. And if he really is willing to take a pay cut to play with a contender. Its looks like he’s been on a decline for the last few years. I just don’t know what to expect with him honestly.
"truTV is like BET for white folks." - Chuck
"Brian Dawkins is always 100% Eagles related."--macjack09 & BGN Nation
yeah, he has been on a decline
nonetheless, i firmly believe he can still put up 13-15 ppg. i just think he had a rough going with the magic and with rose drawing attention from the 1 and 2, JRich will have plenty of room to create his own shot and even spot up on some easy wide open shots.
lateral movement and vertical
Should've traded for Melo.
by sin on Nov 30, 2011 1:28 AM CST up reply actions 7 recs
A lot
He’s a better defender, and I believe he can still create his own shot. He didn’t do much of the latter last year, but I believe that has a lot to do with his role in Orlando’s offense, which was to stand around the perimeter and wait for the kickout from Dwight.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 5:22 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
I don't think JRich
Has really truly been a positive player anywhere he’s gone, in whichever role he’s had to fill over the years. So now that he is losing his athleticism a bit and not quite as able to take on a creator role…. I don’t see the point.
I'm not that high on him either
I definitely don’t think he’s a difference maker. But I think he’s capable of, at the very least, not being a liability out there on either end. You can’t say that about Korver, Bogans, or Brewer.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 5:15 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Brewer's a liability on offense
Especially on this team, with its lack of perimeter shooting.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 11:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
He's not a great shooter
But he’s still useful on offense.
He does a lot of things well
He’s a great cutter, a great passer, and just generally a very smart basketball player. I used to think that made him a decent enough offensive player despite his lack of a shot. But then I looked at his RAPM numbers, and they indicate that he’s always been an awful offensive player (-2 to -3 on that end), even in Utah when he was actually scoring at a decent clip.
In the end, he can’t shoot from range, and he can’t create off the dribble either. The lack of those two skills means he’s just not a threat on the offensive end, which makes him a liability.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Dec 1, 2011 12:59 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I guess watching so much Bogans
has redefined what offensive liability means to me.
Eh..
I’d rather have Korver in than J Rich.. to be honest.. Brewer too at that.. They are both at least pretty darn good at what they do as opposed to being kinda sucky in the middle of both.
I'm curious as to why you think J-Rich blows so much.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 11:51 PM CST up reply actions
I don't want to speak for him
But to me, he’s on the wrong side of 30 and when he went to a team where he didn’t have possibly the great passer of all time feeding him the ball his shooting plummeted and his USG plummeted. That is not a good sign at all.
Take a look at the stats from last year
I’ve got J-Rich, Ben Gordon, Korver and Brewer in the comparison and tell me why I would want Richardson over the other players. He doesn’t play good D like Brewer.
The only argument I can think of for Richardson is “he was really awesome 2 years ago with Nash creating for him.”
Oh I understand that
J-Rich has definitely fallen off, and he’s definitely not the player he once was. But J-Rich in his prime was a damn good player. Basketball apparently thinks he was never really good.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I guess my point is
not that he’s a bad player in the abstract, I just feel like he’s always been in the wrong situations save Phoenix and perhaps GS in his career.
Looking at his 2-YR APM stats year to year it looks like the role he thrived in was with Nash, which might be somewhat similar to what we ask him to do, no way does he get the type of looks he was getting that year, though. His RAPM is pretty underwhelming too. He seems to be a pretty good shooter but even then, Korver is still better and can get his shot off just as well.
Is his ability to drive a bit worth it? I don’t think so, in recent years that hasn’t been his strongest suit, giving possessions to him to drive would be wasteful to offensive efficiency as opposed to Rose Driving/Boozer in the post/Korver taking a 3. Is his defense a bit better than Korver’s? Sure, but the position isn’t quite as important and I don’t think Korver is quite the sieve everyone claims he is.
Lastly, as tuluse pointed out he is on the wrong side of 30 as an athletic wing, and had a pretty shitty stint in Orlando. I don’t think it’s a great idea to take a flier on someone who we’re asking to create, who’s shown his most effective role in recent years is as a knockdown, volume shooter. We already have a better version altogether.
Well let's remember that Korver's on the wrong side of 30 too
I also don’t think Korver’s D was that bad last year, but if he has any dropoff in athleticism, he’s no longer an NBA caliber player.
Regarding your other point, we shouldn’t be giving JRich many iso opportunities, but I think the biggest difference between him and Korver is that in addition to being able to shoot from the perimeter, he can also drive to the hoop when a guy closes out on him too hard. Korver doesn’t have that added dimension; he can pump fake, let the guy fly by him, take a a hard dribble and pull up for a long 2, but he’s not gonna get all the way to the rim and finish like JRich can.
The other thing is, while he may not be a very efficient option in most situations, he can definitely take advantage of mismatches, which helps make life easier for Derrick. For example, say we’re playing the Lakers. They wouldn’t be able to stick Kobe on Rose because JRich would be able to absolutely abuse Fisher 1-on-1. Korver doesn’t give you that.
Pat Riley is the devil.
If you want JRich to replace Korver I would find that acceptable
I have trouble seeing him eat into Brewers minutes or being a true starter though.
So...
I think you’ve convinced me that getting J Rich wouldn’t be the end of the world… as far as free agent guards go that are within the realm of possibility, I think I’m Crawford first and maybe J Rich second and Tmac third now.
But a few last points:
Kyle Korver is still a better shooter than J Rich.
If Derek Fisher were guarding Kyle Korver, that would be equally as bad, Korver would just shoot over him.
In recent years Kyle Korver has been better with ball movement than JRich… at least in my opinion.
I’m sure you’ve seen some of our best lineups involve korver in there. Also, basically any year he keeps his 3pt% above 40 he seems to grade out positively in APM.
I just don’t see J Rich as an improvement over Korver, but sure, lets get him and replace Bogans for good.
I think we're pretty much on the same page
I really like Korver, but I really don’t like the idea of him being the only shooting threat on our roster.
Pat Riley is the devil.
J-Rich was huge for Phoenix in the 2010 playoffs.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
by Dash2112 on Nov 30, 2011 6:48 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
20 ppg on 50% shooting (47% from 3)
does not equal Posey’s contributions.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
by Dash2112 on Nov 30, 2011 10:58 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Also... are you fucking with me?
Posey sucks. Gtfo of here.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
by Dash2112 on Nov 30, 2011 11:04 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
It was just a point to make
Why the hell would you make your argument based on playoff numbers when there is a larger body of work to look at? I don’t think that’s ever worked out well for any team.
You see people like James Posey and like Jerome James go on and fizzle bad.
Maybe Robert Horry has worked out?
Take a look at his regular season numbers for Phoenix too.
I also watched a lot of Phoenix games. J-Rich meant a lot to that team in 2010.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
TMac or TJ Ford.
These are the expectations I have…so getting someone the calibre of JRich would be an upgrade over the expectations as currently set by national rumor mongers…honestly, I felt like JR Smith would have been the best option, but he is stuck in China until March…(and he still is likely the best fit).
New signature coming...but its a process.
by Dionysus2.0 on Nov 30, 2011 8:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I wonder how much of Rip's suckness is because he is old and how is because he hates the Pistons now
by JustAnotherFan on Nov 30, 2011 8:59 AM CST up reply actions
no, he sucks.
and likes to fall down.
by obnoxious american on Nov 30, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
I'm quite interesting in Young, partly because I think it's possible the Wiz won't match.
But he is reputed to be quite the knucklehead.
his knucklehead-ness is more off the court
on the court he was one of the more consistent players for the wizards, but that includes consistently bad defense as well. Offensively though he his everything we are looking for, aside from mannerisms, he is very much a taller ben gordon.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 30, 2011 3:42 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I'm with ya.
Iguodala, Ellis (good FanPost on that here), Mayo, or Gordon
+ Afflalo
If they can’t get one of these guys, let Brewer play the 2 guard. At the very least the Bulls will get exceptional defense and I liked how Brewer picked up his shooting towards the end of the year last year. Anybody else will be just as situational as Korver, Brewer and Bogans already are.
Brew was hitting all net, wasnt he?
He hit a couple 3s too, woot!
i like that he doesnt force his offense
but he still is willing to take those jumpers when he is open….started to knock em down too, which helps his case
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 30, 2011 11:22 AM CST up reply actions
Yeah, he definitely plays within himself
I tend to believe the reports that he’ll never be an elite shooter because of his arm though. I don’t think we can expect any great jumps in his percentages.
yea i never expect him to be a real shooter
but if he can knock down wide open shots like he did in the playoffs, especially 3s, it just helps over all. I would like to see him finish better at the rim, he was nowhere near as explosive as i had imagined he would be.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
That was definitely the most disappointing part of the Ronnie Brewer experience
Another reason not too look too hard at combine numbers. He has the explosiveness, but his timing is terrible. I have no idea why somebody who’s finished growing would be so clueless about when to take off, but there are people with inches less on their vertical that i’d much rather have on a fast break.
when talking to utah fans before we got him
and looking at his highlights from utah, he seemed more explosive. I always wondered if his ankle injuries were worse than he let on. I had a feeling that the bulls as a whole were far more banged up than people knew going into the post season
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Rose will play less minutes this year
and the requirement for him to play so many minutes in the first place
He averaged 37 mins over the course of the regular season last year (40 for the playoffs). But his minutes trended down over the course of the season and by the end he was averaging 35 minutes per game.
The Bulls were an uncoached, never-played-together team at the start of last season, they ended the season with a 9 game winning streak and those wins against the lesser teams of the league came easier and easier. Rose will sit in the 4th in more instances this year, bringing down his minutes.
And check this out: http://www.futuregraphs.net/lookat/1eRsrQdKez A graph demonstrating my point. The NBA is back!
And man, Ronnie Brewer's minutes.
wtf happened to brewer’s minutes last year. http://www.futuregraphs.net/lookat/1eRsOVdKeB I don’t remember any of this. But he didn’t finish the year by getting minutes thats for sure. Not something you’d see out of a potential starting candidate.
by JockstrapNoah on Nov 30, 2011 12:29 AM CST up reply actions
He was injured during training camp and took awhile to get into the rotation and then sprained his thumb late in the season
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
by snley on Nov 30, 2011 12:41 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Brandon Roy scares the hell out of me
I think I remember reading a story last year after he wen’t out that the doctors were saying he had 2 years max left and that was if he didn’t practice ever was only played limited minutes in game (<20 I think.) Even if we were to get him I see way more risk than upside. And as far as trades go I don’t think we can trade Deng simply because he is a top 6 player at his positon. (Lebron, Durant, Melo, Granger, Pierce Deng), Taj however in my opinion needs to be moved this year for the simple fact that that his contract is coming up next year I think and we can’t afford to resign him to what he is worth. Might as well trade him for a long term SG piece.
J Rich is the guy
Im just speculating here but i guess he is willing to take a paycut. He just came off from a huge contract. His play is declining. Usually, players who are at this stage of their career would likely want to sign to a team contending for a championship. I can’t honestly believe that he’d think Chicago isn’t closer to a championship. Also, i certainly believe he sees himself as a good fit next to Rose. As long as the Bulls are willing to spend the full MLE on him, then he’d perfect for this team.
This is the Truth. I'm Not the Best, I'm Not the Greatest of All-time. But, I'm Gonna Run Up on You. I'm Fast Because I'm Light, I'm D. ROSE and FAST DON'T LIE!
by BULLysh on Nov 30, 2011 12:31 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions
I don't even think he'll require a pay cut, who's giving him more than the MLE?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
i think i read
that he wants to sign w/ a contender so i assume he’s willing to take a pay cut. i think he said something like “i’ve been blessed to make so much money, now i want to win a championship”, along those lines at least.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
I think yfBB was saying
that J-Rich wouldn’t be making a financial sacrifice coming to the Bulls, since nobody else would pay him more than the mid-level, and I tend to agree. It’s a bad investment for a younger team, and other serious competitors don’t have more than the mid-level available or need of a starting shooting guard.
i got it and i also agree
i was just saying i heard that he was prob willing to take what it plays on a contender at this point instead of running with a fat contract from a shitty team.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
lol, perhaps
though i could see him getting more than a 5 mil MLE offer.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
im hoping
That no one would so that the Bulls can have a chance at signing him. There will be a number of under the cap teams that will get shut out on the top FAs so there is a chance he’d get more than the MLE.
This is the Truth. I'm Not the Best, I'm Not the Greatest of All-time. But, I'm Gonna Run Up on You. I'm Fast Because I'm Light, I'm D. ROSE and FAST DON'T LIE!
by BULLysh on Nov 30, 2011 4:36 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
They just need a talent upgrade, and SG happens to be the one spot where they're obviously not up to par
So, most people will automatically say “We need a SG”. I don’t think that’s the case. As you pointed out, there’s not even any really great options out there.
i don’t know if I even care what they do with the 2 spot this year (as long as it’s not Bogans), because whoever it is, likely won’t put us over the hump anyway.
If I knew they had some kind of grand plan to add another true star to the team in the next year or two, I’d be more than happy going into the season with Brewer starting. BUT, if Brewer is starting on day one, there’s no way of knowing if it’s actually part of a bigger plan, or just Jerry being a cheapass
Recovering...
im kind of agreeing here
we wont be the only team upgrading.
miami will likely get a decent center.
knicks will likely get cp3 deron or dwight
if you believe the rumors about celtics pushing hard for some kind of rondo-cp3 trade then that creates another annoying threat
if the nets somehow magically managed to land dwight that makes it even more painful in the east.
the east is going to get really shaken up by next year and i feel like we need to really upgrade big time and not just a minor upgrade at SG and think we’re set for years to come
Should've traded for Melo.
Yeah, there's three teams that worry me going forward
The Heat (obviously), the Thunder (even though Westbrook is trying to sabotage them), and whatever team Dwight Howard ends up playing for. I guess you could throw the Knicks in there too, but even at their best (if they got CP3 or something), they still won’t be championship worthy imo. Defense and rebounding is still money in the playoffs, and I don’t see a whole lot of that on the Knicks. (The Celtics are pretty much done)
in order to keep up with those other three, i think we’ll need to make some more big moves. Or of course we could just be the team that trades for Howard. In which case the Bulls own the league for the next 5-10 years :)
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:47 AM CST up reply actions
i dont know
everyone keeps saying the knicks wont win without defense.
but think of how deadly those suns teams were a few years ago. with cp3 or dwill running a MD system and melo and amare as his two first options, im just fucking scared of that. i dont care how bad their defense may be. most teams i doubt will be able to keep up with their pace offensively
Should've traded for Melo.
It's a common misconception that the Phoenix Suns were a bad defensive team
They played at a very fast pace, which inflated their raw PPG given up, but in terms of defensive efficiency, they weren’t awful. From the ‘04-’05 season through the ‘07-08 season, they finished 17th, 16th, 13th, and 16th, respectively in DRtg. They weren’t good, but they weren’t bad. They were merely average.
The Knicks, on the other hand, are bad defensively. They were 22nd in DRtg last year, and I don’t see them getting any better anytime soon.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 5:32 AM CST up reply actions 6 recs
The Knicks will have the same problems the Suns had
They have to perform at a high level offensively or they will just lose. They won’t be able to stop you on the other end.
The Spurs matched the Suns by playing their style and the Suns fans still complain about Robert Horry as the only reason they lost that series.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 1:04 PM CST up reply actions
does it not sit well with anyone else that the league owns the Hornets?
so basically they can deal CP3 almost to a team of their choosing (obviously one of the marquee franchises, the NBA’s bread&butter) and maybe not even be too concerned with compensation in return. it’s a salary dump basically, especially if it’s for Ronda.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 8:08 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
I dunno, sounds a little paranoid to me. I mean they still have executives down there who are going to hurt their careers
if they pull the trigger on a shitty deal. they aren’t the MLB Pirates, they’re not just going to salary dump their one great player when you have to spend 90%of the cap anyway
...and we're back
by paddyfairview on Nov 30, 2011 10:17 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
not paranoid
it just weirds me out if this is a straight-up CP3 for Rondo deal. I mean, one team has the clear advantage in such a deal.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 10:29 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
There is no CP3 for Rondo deal
why do you accept that particular rumor as fact? That’s where the paranoia comes in. Why not believe Adrian Wojnarowski instead when he says:
Boston could be trying to gather players to make a more attractive bid for Paul, sources said. New Orleans has shown no interest in a deal that would include Rondo and any combination of Celtics teammates. Yet, New Orleans GM Dell Demps is determined to get maximum value for Paul, if it’s clear the point guard sees his future elsewhere. Demps has no desire to simply let Paul walk away as a free agent to New York.
The other side is that the NBA doesn't want to own the Hornets forever.
They’re looking to sell the team, so they can’t completely screw the pooch. There might also be oversight and governance mechanisms we don’t know about that would prevent ridiculous moves.
by arjoseph on Nov 30, 2011 10:23 AM CST via mobile up reply actions
that is one reason I'm skeptical CP3 gets moved
I remember some other owners pitching a fit when New Orleans traded Thornton last year. Imagine the outcry if CP3 is gifted to the Knicks.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 11:06 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I don't like it either
They need a new owner. It’s not paranoia. It’s just a recognition that the league approves trades and if they own a team and approve its trades it’s awfully compromising.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
conflict of interest
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 2:00 PM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Not sure what you're saying
SG’s not just the only spot where the Bulls aren’t up to par, it’s the only spot where they can really make an upgrade. There’s not really much of a chance of getting a better PG than Rose, a better SF than Deng, a better PF than Boozer, or a better C than Noah (unless we can somehow make a play for Howard).
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 5:26 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
of course we can get a better SF, PF, or C.
It’s just not as easy, or obvious. I’m not even saying that I necessarily know who that player is, or that he’s even available right now. Just that, imo, eventually this team needs a talent upgrade, and it doesn’t have to come from the 2.
(and I know that might sound kinda vague or stupid, but I guess it’s just my roundabout way of saying: all avenues need to be explored, because this team hasn’t done shit yet)
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 6:51 AM CST up reply actions
Also, that doesn't mean I dislike the team either, I just don't think they're quite as far along as most do
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 6:51 AM CST up reply actions
I dont know, juicebox, alot of people are saying the best record last year is some kinda mirage
Yet the team managed that with injured Noah and Boozer for many games, plus the Bogans factor, haha.
And we still had the best record. yet here are you clamoring for another star????
I guess people still don’t have faith in Rose? I dont wanna here the crap that you cant win it all with a PGod as your best player
the best record can be a mirage
doesn’t mean much without a title. they had to push it so hard all year to get that record that by the time the playoffs came, there was no higher gear for them to kick into. there’s a difference between the Bulls squeezing every bit of their energy to win 60 games and the Heat and Spurs winning 60 games with a little less effort.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 9:29 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I think it takes the same effort?????
Lebron complained of being worn out too.
my point is our team is real good, that despite all those missed games and bogans, we won the most games
Rose is real good, yall
I get you
but even in a full season I was prepared for them to not win as many games and not be let down by it. I just think it takes a toll to keep up that pace year after year for an entire season.
actually, I’m hoping Thibs learns how to pull the foot off the gas a bit to preserve his players, ala Pop and Rivers and Phil.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 9:44 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
I don't think it was a mirage, but I also don't think they were the best in the league (like their record would suggest)
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:41 PM CST up reply actions
I think they were the best team in the league during the regular season.
I think they were the third best team in the league in the playoffs.
Right...
And it seems the team agrees, and they are trying to upgrade talent at back-up PG by potentially bringing in TJ Ford to take CJ Watson’s role…Which, not coincidentally, was one of my biggest beefs of last season (CJ was not a good back-up).
New signature coming...but its a process.
Thats a pretty semantic argument
Of course you can conceivably get better at those positions. But if you’re not providing any ideas, the same can be said for all but Miami at SF and SG, Orlando at C, New Orleans at PG, and Dallas at PF. Hell, you might as well say the Bulls could get better at PG.
by JeffD on Nov 30, 2011 11:27 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
its the world of JBJ
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Nov 30, 2011 11:31 AM CST up reply actions
Agreed
but please let’s not go here again.
Hell, you might as well say the Bulls could get better at PG.
I know, I said it was vague and stupid
I wasn’t writing a fanpost about it or anything. I was just trying to explain my issues with the idea that a competent sg is the only thing holding the Bulls back from a title.
For example, the Heat are probably at that stage where they can just plug in a role player or MLE guy here or there, and reasonably expect a big enough improvement to win a title. I don’t think the Bulls are at that point, while I get the impression that a lot of people do. The Bulls need a talent bump from somewhere (not necessarily sg), that’s all I was trying to say.
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions
But its pretty unreasonable to expect an upgrade at those positions
Who are clear upgrades? At SF it would be LBJ, Durant & Carmelo. PF would be Love, Dirk, Griffin, Gasol, Amare, Bosh. C would be Howard. None of those guys are remotely attainable.
I’m not actually advocating this and it will never happen, but the argument could be made that with Paul’s availability, PG is the easiest position to upgrade after SG.
There's no one available at the moment
But it’s the NBA, that shit can change in 3 seconds.
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 8:49 PM CST up reply actions
Saying "it's just not as easy, or obvious" is quite the understatement.
Dwight Howard dreams aside, there’s really nobody that seems remotely available who would constitute an upgrade over Deng, Boozer, or Noah. I think the last offseason spoiled you. Players like Lebron and Wade generally don’t become free agents. More often than not, the most talented player to get moved in a given offseason is someone at the level of a guy like Carlos Boozer.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Nov 30, 2011 12:12 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Well, Howard would be the dream, but I'm not sure it has to be THAT drastic of a talent upgrade.
I guess it could also be something like 2 smaller upgrades instead of one big one.
For example (and keep in mind this is purely hypothetical, I have no clue how anything could or would work cap-wise), if they added Ben Gordon AND Andre Igoudala. or something like that. Not a move where you’re getting a superstar, but one where you could potentially really improve the team.
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:40 PM CST up reply actions
Did you notice that you named 2 players
and somehow they both play SG? I think that once you analyze it, when you start talking specifics, it’s pretty evident that any improvement will come primarily from the SG spot. After that, you’re just discussing which SG will be the best fit.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Iggly plays sf currently, and I view him as an upgrade over Deng
So I was referring to maybe, somehow replacing Luol with him, and adding BG.
Again, I wasn’t being specific (and I’m not even sure how much I like that particular idea), but that’s the type of thing I’m talking about.
In other words, whether it be one larger upgrade (like a Howard), or a couple smaller upgrades (like the one I just mentioned), those are the types of things that need to be looked at to get to the next level (IMO).
I’m not big on creating phony trade scenarios, or linking to crazy trade machine proposals. I’d rather just comment on rumors, or other peoples ideas. Which is why I’m not being more specific. I’m lazy like that :)
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 5:04 PM CST up reply actions
Also, PLEASE don't turn this into an Iggy vs. Deng thing
Or comment on the improbability of acquiring one or both of those players. I promise I was being purely hypothetical just to explain what types of deals I was talking about to upgrade the team. And since those are two of the more rumored players lately, I used them as an example
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 5:06 PM CST up reply actions
You still named a SG as the primary improvement
Even if you think Iggy is better than Deng, isn’t Ben Gordon providing the real upgrade in this scenario?
Yeah, but my point is that Gordon by himself wouldn't be able to make that big a difference
And like I said a million times, those were just examples I used as the type of player that would kind of fit what I’m talking about
But yeah, it’s obvious sg is one of the areas that needs to be upgraded.
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 8:51 PM CST up reply actions
i disagree
i think the Bulls guard play outside of D. Rose is pathetic. Watson, Bogans, Brewer and Korver simply don’t create shots for other people. Only Korver is a good offensive player. None of these guys is a remotely 2 way player. I think the guard play outside of Rose is a big part of the reason the Bulls lost last season.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 9:54 AM CST up reply actions
noah had a bad series against the heat
boozer was terrible in two of the games, and asik went down. i think the fact that the front court couldn’t take advantage of joel anthony had more to do with it really. although yeah, i mean korver was awful in the heat series for the most part. watson barely played, so i can’t really blame him.
Look
I didn’t want to offend anyone by saying the "f" word or generalizing my statement to any particular sex by saying "gays" or lesbians" or "bi’s" so "homos" is the most "politically correct" term. I’m just trying to be more tact in a tactless blog.
by Hindut Patrol on Feb 15, 2011 2:51 PM EST
by Jaina on Nov 30, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
When I say "lost last season"
I meant in general, not just the playoffs. I think the guard play on this team is a real liability outside of D.Rose. Boozer-Noah-Taj-Asik might have struggled against the Heat in 5 games, but they were great the previous 93. Watson-Brewer-Bogans-Korver were average to below average respectively all year long. And like people have been saying – the chances of upgrading the frontline (who collectively was the Bulls strength is low) but the chance to upgrade the backcourt perimeter players is relatively high.
by Basketball Smurf on Nov 30, 2011 12:32 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
does yfbb follow dragonball z
cuz i swear, that was a Fusion Name
quick someone do a photoshop of brewer and korver doing the fusion dance
/nerdiness
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
The bucket of water has truly drenched you all
I’m not buying it.
They have their ‘flexibility’ for a reason. That’s why they signed all them 2 year deals. Bulls org knew this was coming and wanted to get Boozer and their high priced SG last year. Nothing from that plan has changed. Have they overachieved to the point where they think this team could win it all with some more time together? Maybe, but I expect the Bulls to use all their chips to upgrade dramatically this year before those deals get us absolutely nothing in return.
This time last year, they cleared enough space to sign two guys to max (or closer to) contracts knowing very well about Noah and Rose’s salary increase. If they can trade for a ‘guy’ using their expirings and assets, they’ll do it. That’s why they’re in the position they’re in now.
KC just likes keeping expectations low. Then when something does happen, he’ll say something after the fact. As in some rumblings he heard previously or what not.
Point is, KC always keeps the bar low so I wouldn’t run away with what’s he’s writing.
For Christ sakes, the writing is on the wall. Reinsdorf has said himself that the Bulls are a two guard away from winning it all.
Badf teams with good players loving the new rules for ‘under the cap’ teams. They’ve got more advantage over the capped teams than ever before so you’ll see teams like the Warriors, Sixers and so on trading for expirings and assets. Bulls have both so expect them to be very active from here on out till the deadline.
That was the plan all along with these two year deals, nothing’s changed.
by Option27 on Nov 30, 2011 2:04 AM CST reply actions 13 recs
i agree, i am hopeful the bulls can oull off something big
I can see a surprise trade happening. I mean, people are shitting their pants about knicks getting CP3? really? and how do they have MORE cap flexibility than the bulls? same goes to the heat and the celtics. If they can get rumurs based off them getting superstars like howard, cp3 etc., then people would be crazy to think the bulls dont have enough to offer for great players. As of right now, out of all the playoffs competitors in the East, the bulls have the most cap flexibility.
and to make it even sweeter
if the bulls do screw up this season, they can amnesty any player either this season or next season easily. Whether it be Boozer or Noah, Im sure GarPax will make the right decision.
Why are people still talking about Noah getting waived like it's realistic?
It’s not. If the Bulls decided for some insane reason that they didn’t want him anymore, they’d trade him.
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 12:03 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
See, that's the thing about the Bulls. They usually hold their cards close to the chest
Most of the trades you usually hear about, usually don’t happen.
When Hinrich was traded, it blind sided us. Same about Tyrus to Charlotte. Wallace to Cleveland and the list goes on. There was never any smoke spotted when those trades happened. It’s just how the Bulls work You didn’t hear about how the Bulls almost got Mayo till after the deadline.
That’s huge praise to GarPax for never leaking much. It’s a difficult thing to do in this new world we live in.
Though there are 3 things they’ve very open about
1) Having flexibility. Precisely for times like these.
2) Paying for a winner
3) Upgrading the SG position
That’s all we need to know. They’re swinging for the fences
Yeah, that's why I'm gonna wait to see what happens before I get all bummed out
I’m hoping you’re right, and they do something big, but you just can’t really tell with the org.
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:51 AM CST up reply actions
Obviously you can't tell but the the signs all point to yes
You don’t sign these dudes to two year deals to just see them walk afterwards. You don’t keep Taj or Omer unless you’re willing to pay for them when it their time (same as them paying for that SG). Either way, they’re gonna have to pay them dudes or pay for the SG. Doubt they just let them walk for nothing. They know some big name players are gonna be out there to be had this year. Especially on bad teams’ rosters. My best guess is them taking advantage of it while they still can (this year only).
if they don’t do anything in the next few weeks, we’ll just have to wait till the deadline cause something HAS TO give.
I’m not gonna pout about it until they prove me wrong.
I’m expecting it cause it’s what’s been said to us repeatedly.
are you just trying to convince yourself?
there’s no real reason to believe this with the Bulls never paying the tax and then using KC to tell us they probably wont in the future.
I hope you’re wrong.
The Hinrich trade was surprising, but Tyrus and Wallace weren’t. And all 3 were deals to gain flexibility and not talent, so if anything that’d be evidence against you.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:16 AM CST up reply actions
*I hope you're right, I mean
I swear :-)
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:16 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The Tyrus and Wallace trades were surprising because of how they came out of nowhere when they happened
We all knew the Bulls were looking to trade both but there wasn’t any leaks of either being traded to Charlotte or Cleveland.
That’s what I was referring to.
the knicks have enough money next year to throw out a n ear max contract
plus theyd still have melo/amare/fields as a core.
the heat are set and just need role players.
we meanwhile have our money dedicated to rose boozer noah and deng (who as we saw last year are not enough – i just dont buy that we’re going to get 1 full healthy season out of both noah AND boozer)
Should've traded for Melo.
Bulls could essentially give a team about 13 million dollars in expirings this year
Add that to the young talent on cheap contracts & assets like Mirotic and the Charlotte pick (whenever the hell it is).
They really do have an advantage here.
Just think, it was Kwame Brown’s expiring 9.1 million that Memphis wanted when they traded Gasol to LA
They had a valuable piece — Kwame Brown’s expiring contract of $9.1 million — and found a team in the cash-strapped Grizzlies that wanted to part with the three years and $49.4 million left on Gasol’s deal.
Bulls have more. Even better, things to add on top.
Like I mentioned above, there are gonna be a few teams in tough situations who are gonna look to shed salary because of all the benefits you get when you’re under the cap. More so then ever with the new rules in place.
I’m stoked as hell. Y’all are crazy
Sorry, that Kwame peice was supposed to be in block quote format
They had a valuable piece — Kwame Brown’s expiring contract of $9.1 million — and found a team in the cash-strapped Grizzlies that wanted to part with the three years and $49.4 million left on Gasol’s deal.
ok, now you're just annoying me
isn’t that my point in the post that a trade would be best, because of these expirings/assets they have?
You can’t get credit for this by being ‘stoked’. Screw you.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The only reason I'm stoked it because I honestly feel that they have something up their sleeve.
It seems from what I’ve read here lately, most of you guys are pessimistic as hell thinking they’ll place Watson in the SG role or sign someone to the MLE and that’s it.
I’m stoked because of what they’ve done in the past two years to get to this point now. I don’t see them wasting an opportunity cause KC thinks they will.
I will say that I have more hope
with Gar Forman as GM. I like the moves he has made. I just don’t know what he can do if he has to operate on a budget.
My point being this, if they were willing to go deep into the tax when they were going for a PF & SG last year
Then they’re willing to do it again.
Bulls have a much better shot at winning a title than the White Sox do as of now: budget’s up.
there's no guarantee they would've gone into the Tax if they signed Boozer and Joe Johnson
(unless there is and I just don’t want to do the math)
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions
honest to god
how does anyone actually know if gar foreman made any moves
have u seen him, he looks like a puppet, like a muppet…
he might actually be one, just a figure created to save pax from all the negative publicity the golden son of chicago was recieving…probably
or realistically its more of a 3 headed organization, where they bounce ideas off of one another and keep some sort of checks and balances thing. I think more than gar, pax is the guy with the reputation and people skills. I see him as being the guy all gms really like, gar might just be the gopher of the 3, he gets to do all the leg work and speak to the public while pax makes all the moves..
no one really knows, no one knows who does what in that organization, but just because things started to go better for us when gar was hired (like getting rose) people automatically assume gar is some kind of brainchild making the new moves, when they really all seem to be the same type of moves as pax was doing all along, just the fortune of the bulls has changed since then.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 30, 2011 3:50 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The fact that Gar
got a bunch of the votes for executive of the year indicates to me that some of the other GM talk to him. You figure that if Paxson was the one doing all the negotiating, everyone would just assume he was the one with all the power.
I does seem like John is senior to Gar though. I assume they just work things out between them. When something has to be taken to JR, I imagine that its Paxson who does the talking.
Gar Forman and Jed Hoyer should probably have a reality show or something
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 5:09 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
This turns out to be wrong
Hollinger did a fantastic breakdown that showed how bad a position the Knicks are in.
Even if they got rid of every single player on their roster other than Amare and Carmelo, their max offer to Chris Paul would be 40 million less in guaranteed dollars than what NO could offer. Then they would have to fill in the cracks with a 3 million exception and minimum salary players. They cannot get around this by trading for Paul because they have no players worth taking back, and cannot trade any more first round draft picks until 2018.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/7292666/nba-chris-paul-knicks-highly-unlikely
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 3:34 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I tried to say the same thing in a previous post, but not nearly as eloquent.
"Shit just got real" - anorexorcist.
or the plan with those 2 year deals was to reduce payroll to compensate for Rose's extension
also why Noah’s contract dips in that year.
But if making a big trade is the plan, great, but it can also be enacted at the trade deadline or next draft, so you can stay with this theory until then and technically not be wrong. Heck, then both you AND KC will be right!
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:14 AM CST up reply actions
If they were going after Wade and Bosh (like they were)
Wouldn’t that mean they were willing to go deep into the tax considering their starting 5 would have been making an obscene amount just by themselves
Same theory about them wanting Boozer and Joe Johnson.
When all the SG’s signed with their teams, Bulls had to move on to the next plan. Put a band-aid on it & allow themselves to use that money again in the near future.
Isn’t that why we kept hearing about the ‘home run’?
believe it...
OR NOT
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions
If we aren't going to get a starting two guard,
we could strengthen the bench instead, particularly at the point guard and small forward positions. Not very exciting, I know, but can Rose and Deng play the same kind of minutes as last year in a shortened season with back to back to back games?
the bench was strong last year
I don’t think theres a point to having “quality back-ups” that are not actually “backing” anything up.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Nov 30, 2011 10:36 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
We had a strong bench in the front court,
not so strong in the back court — unless you count Brewer and Korver because they were better than Bogans. But Bogans never got starter minutes. I don’t think C.J. is a strong back up at guard, and it didn’t seem like anyone was backing up Deng. They need a starter at shooting guard, I agree, but they could also use stronger back ups at point and small forward, and the back ups may be more feasible.
no it was a bench strong in the backcourt as well
we had a big defensive swingman in brewer, a 3pt specialist in Korver, a nice back up PG in Watson, and a good reserve in Bogans who should have gotten 5 minutes a game to spell other players during the season and ate bench in the playoffs. If Joe Johnson was our starting two guard, I think we would have gotten praise for our backcourt depth
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Nov 30, 2011 2:49 PM CST up reply actions
i agree
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
If the Bulls got another point guard
I’d like to get rid of CJ Watson, as I just don’t see him as a SG. To me, it’s vital that the Bulls bring in a playmaker that can play at the same time as Derrick Rose. He doesn’t have to start at SG, but he has to be able to play there.
I agree that a combo guard would be ideal.
Maybe there’s a combo guard out there who can back up both positions better than C.J. Watson.
i dont mind cj
and so i dont get the point of bringing in another pg, unless its like a combo point. I dont get the point of having a tj ford when cj can do the job just fine and knows the system. Maybe if the idea was to trade cj for a oj, monta, or even kirk, then yea it makes sense, but not for a tj ford…
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I wish JR Smith wasn't playing in China
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 6:31 AM CST reply actions 3 recs
The season ends in March
could we conceivably sign him then and have him be available for the playoffs?
by NerdVernacular on Nov 30, 2011 7:25 AM CST up reply actions
yup
and if they keep their exception they can use it then
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:18 AM CST up reply actions
That was my pipe-dream...
and if the Bulls keep enough of their MLE, they may be able to sign him in March when he is eligible to return to the NBA, just in time for the playoffs.
New signature coming...but its a process.
would Thibs play a guy who just signed in March?
granted, Smith is better than Rasual Butler…
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 9:19 AM CST up reply actions
is there really a difference between acquiring the guy at the deadline on Feb. 24th-ish
as opposed to March 1st or whatever?
oh wait, 2012, leap year. guess that extra day makes a big diff. ;)
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 9:39 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions 1 recs
If the guy was good enough he'd have to
I’d expect him to be worked along slowly though. Thibs loves his set rotations.
im glad he is
so i can see the bs he brings..imagine him faking an injury over a gym bag. hypothetically of course
post-lockout blues...dada dada da
SG has to be upgraded. Teams will continue to concentrate on trapping Rose and
daring his teammates to beat them. Which usually leads to long 2 pointers, or everyone standing around, watching the shot clock go down. It has to be a legit 2 guard, whether it comes from trade or FA. If they keep the roster the same, or get another one way SG, wouldn’t the end result be the same?
On the J.R. Smith bandwagon until otherwise advised.
Definitely excited to see what happens
I keep reading Jason Richardson’s name, so I’m guessing he is a likely candidate at this point. I would probably be okay with Brandon Roy as well ;)
rumor madness has begun
the only thing that worries me is I’ve seen nothing linked to the Bulls recently, besides TMac. I dunno…
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 8:24 AM CST via iPhone app reply actions 1 recs
I find all the Rondo trade rumors amusing
he’s probably scowling more than usual lately since his team doesn’t want him anymore.
by NerdVernacular on Nov 30, 2011 8:27 AM CST up reply actions
and we'll finally see what he's really got
once he’s not surrounded by 3 hall of famers.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 8:50 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
Less assists
more bricked shots
WCG's Resident Nickelback and Boy Band fan
Also rated Worst WCG Blogger by Dr. Steven Schweickert's extensive "Total BR" (Blogger Rating)
"Oh Dilfer, give me the strength...
to be as bad a WCG Contributor as you are an announcer/authority on anything. Peace be with you. " (JoetheBoss)
Or maybe he goes back to aggresive 2009 playoffs Rondo.
Rebounding and attacking.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
if he had a chance to do that, why would the celtics push hard for a trade
unless they’ve realized Rondo is not a cornerstone and is more valuable now before his production dips again
WCG's Resident Nickelback and Boy Band fan
Also rated Worst WCG Blogger by Dr. Steven Schweickert's extensive "Total BR" (Blogger Rating)
"Oh Dilfer, give me the strength...
to be as bad a WCG Contributor as you are an announcer/authority on anything. Peace be with you. " (JoetheBoss)
Because Rondo is an assist whore.
"Did Michael Jordan join the Pistons when he couldn't beat them? No. He dug down deep and went out and kicked their fucking ass."
ray allen throws a pass to shaq
shaq pivots, fakes, pivots again, fakes again, puts up the shot….. assist rondo…wait what?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGqn3oyGDb0
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Nov 30, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
yfBB, can you explain the 'secondary' waiver process?
Or link me to the right direction?
Let’s say, for example, that no team under the pick picks up Player A. What happens next in this 2ndary waiver, and which over-the-cap team gets precedence over other teams that are over?
I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS.
maybe like the NFL where then the teams over the cap can bid
but teams with worse record get first dibs.
by BULLieving in Miami on Nov 30, 2011 10:30 AM CST via iPhone app up reply actions
there's the same 'first waivers', where a team under the cap can claim the whole salary
nobody will do that.
For amnesty cuts, there’s ‘secondary waivers’, where an under-the-cap team can claim a portion of the players salary, highest bid gets the player, and money claimed offsets what’s owed by the original team that cut the player.
there’s no ‘third waivers’, if they get through the 2nd bit they’re unrestricted free agents.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 10:58 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
yfbb, can you explain the fanshots/fanposts system to me?
Recovering...
by Juiceboxjerry on Nov 30, 2011 2:50 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
News (or, perhaps, non-news) on the Mayo front:
Gay is considered a franchise player along with forward Zach Randolph. The expectation is for Mayo to flourish this season as a sixth man. Mayo’s departure — if that ever happens — would most certainly be through a trade.
(emphasis mine)
Link to article in The Commercial Appeal
Pretty simple stuff...
Sign Pargo as player/coach. Fire Thibs. He’s too much about defense. There is no one who can defend Pargo, so why should Pargo be worried about playing defense? Next, rename the United Center to the Janero Pargo Center for Basketball Excellence and Excelling. Next, figure out how those Brits cloned that sheep, and clone Pargo. The starting five would look like this C- Pargo PF-Pargo Sf-Pargo SG- Bogans PG-Pargo……unbeatabull!
by Jamero Pargo on Nov 30, 2011 11:21 AM CST reply actions 7 recs
I hope you don't plan to make a habit of these types of posts
by runningman on Nov 30, 2011 12:28 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
haha, I won't be. I'm still bitter from when sexually transmitted Vinny Del Negro kept playing Pargo a couple years back
hence, my sarcastic love for Pargo.
by Jamero Pargo on Nov 30, 2011 12:39 PM CST up reply actions
Pretty simple stuff...
Sign Scalabrine as player/coach. Fire Thibs. He’s too much about defense. There is no one who can defend Scalabrine, so why should Scalabrine be worried about playing defense? Next, rename the United Center to the Brian Scalabrine Center for Basketball Excellence and Excelling. Next, figure out how those Brits cloned that sheep, and clone Scalabrine. The starting five would look like this C- Scalabrine PF-Scalabrine Sf-Scalabrine SG- Bogans PG-Scalabrine……unbeatabull!
"And thank you to God for making me an Atheist." - Ricky Gervais
by MichaelClutchtree on Nov 30, 2011 4:22 PM CST up reply actions
This is funny solely becaus of this line:
There is no one who can defend Pargo, so why should Pargo be worried about playing defense?
Tagline material?
Pat Riley is the devil.
Oh, I interpreted this as Pargo talking about himself in the 3rd person
It’s much funnier that way.
Pat Riley is the devil.
call me a sap
but i like rip hamilton or BG over everyone else. j Rich is cool too imo and mayo for his youth but I dont understand why RIP isnt a better fit? He’s never really been a ball hog, plays GREAT pick and pop ball (rose would flourish with that) and has a chip that was based on team-chemistry. somehow i can see him coming to the Bulls and winning one. He needs it so he’s not forgetten as well.
And BG, i just think as short as he was, as painful as it was to see him sloppy on D, i just missed that fuker during the miami series. ::::small tears::::
post-lockout blues...dada dada da
I really wanted Rip to take that buyout deal last season
and sign up with the Bulls in time for the playoffs.
Let us cavort like the Greeks of old! You know the ones I mean.
by hedonism bot on Nov 30, 2011 12:23 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I really don't see the love for Hamilton
Also, can anyone explain why he has such crazy fluctuation between his shooting percentages every year? He seems very streaky…..
To me he seems to old and slow to really be a threat on offense, while being a liability on defense. He’s like a very very poor man’s Ray Allen
i agree to disagree with u
just on the fact that since he’s been playing for one of the sorriest clubs in awhile and all his best players left, leaving him utterly depressed.
post-lockout blues...dada dada da
What's his motivation?
Dumars gave Hamilton a really nice deal at a great time for Hamilton. It didn’t look that great for the Pistons though. Then they signed BG and Villanueva.
I think Rip would be better contending for a title rather than supporting a younger roster in the doldrums of the EC.
I can predict the future using Norm Van Lier's crystal balls.
"Sam has a tendency to denigrate reports coming from any reporter who didn’t also cover the day Naismith first put up the peach baskets." - snley
by NBA Observer on Nov 30, 2011 2:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
hamilton isn't a good dribbler
He doesn’t create plays, and that’s what we need.
by MartyMondays on Nov 30, 2011 1:50 PM CST via mobile reply actions
New post in light of Reinsdorf comments
Because when the chairman gives something this non-committal through a team spokesman, I listen.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Nov 30, 2011 5:50 PM CST reply actions 2 recs
shooting guard options
picking up a t-mac this yrs. as a stop gap wouldnt be too bad, ben gordon actually would be a perfect fit, with his ability to create his own shot, being able to handle the ball and shoot. he would also be fairly easy to get. jr smith has the skill set the bulls need but the bulls will never sign him simply bc he isnt paxson’s type of player. the worst option would be to overpay an aging and deteriorating j-rich, who will also be looking for a fairly large pay day. vince carter will also be asking for more than he is worth. afflalo would be fine but he is also most likely going to get a big pay day from the nuggets and he also doesnt really have the ball handling and playmaking skills the bulls need.

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