A Whole New View of Things

by Ceasaleo on Jan 31, 2011 7:35 PM CST

The earlier fanpost breaking down Lu's game, Thib's insistence on playing him ~40 mins/game, and JJ's recent trip down to the D-League got me thinking. A couple happy hours drinks helped the process.

I'm still under the impression that this year's 1st round pick is better used in trade instead of keeping until draft time. One thing has changed, what if we can get a nice vet SF backup (perferably a young established vet).

Right now with Bogans starting, we get Brewer coming in playing the SF spot and Korver playing SG, or in most cases Deng staying in while the others play the SG. Korver very rarily plays the SF, at least not defensively, so my hypothesis is trade for a SF that has size and can hit a 3 pointer. They are way more plentiful than starting quality SG's.

Things I Think I Know:

- Korver or Brewer would be better options as a starting SG than Bogans, with Korver being the better option. He may not be the guy you want guarding Kobe or D.Wade, but at least he will run them silly off screens.

- Brewer is better off the bench because he can be matched up defensively against the SG or SF, and he works better with at least 1 shooter in the lineup with him.

- Thibs doesn't trust JJ DEFENSIVELY. Remember all the quotes from D.Rose? Basically saying that Thibs "didn't care what happened on offense, but you better not mess up on D". That's why he can't get off the bench. i'm glad he's lighting things up in the D-League, brings his trade value up.

- Bogans needs to go.

A couple of names: (with trade proposal linked; all include our 2011 1st round pick)

Grant Hill - Too perfect to be true, for a 2nd half rental

Corey Brewer - Getting a sleeper in Hayward, wouldn't hurt.

Al Thornton - they would be sending a 2nd our way

Omri Casspi - another one I really like

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I would like any of those deals

as it gives the Bulls something for nothing (read: Bogans) but I question if those teams will want to give up the (limited) financial flexibility afforded by their expirings for what amounts to (at least in my eyes as) a roll of a dice on JJ, a low draft pick, and a role player in Bogans…especially with the CBA up in the air for next season.

-Jeeves The I in Team

by jeeves on Jan 31, 2011 8:50 PM CST reply actions

I'd wet myself if we got Grant Hill without giving up one of our bigs.

In reality it is probably giving up too much (I still believe in JJ and a 1st is a 1st) but it if happened I’d feel ready for a championship this year. Grant Hill is still a plus defender. He won’t be able to stay in front of quick 2s, but some 2s, most 3s and even some 4s he could defend well. And his percentages are great.

Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.; Anti-Frohawk since 2005.

by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jan 31, 2011 9:31 PM CST reply actions

Do you watch any games???

Korver almost never plays the 2 on defense. Brewer gets the quick defender and Korver gets the slow one. You must have watched the 5 minutes that Korver guarded JJ Reddick, right?

by Gorditadog on Jan 31, 2011 10:59 PM CST reply actions

to broaden your point a bit...

The fundamental reason that the Bulls have done as well as they have, in spite of the absence of at least one of their best players for most of the season, is defense. So the argument that the Bulls would be significantly better by replacing a solid defender with a vulnerable one in the starting lineup is misguided.

Furthermore, it’s obviously the minutes that matter the most, not who starts, and both Korver and Brewer get more minutes than Bogans.

Oh, and never mind that Bogans shot a higher percentage from beyond the arc than any other Bull in January.

by badnewsintennisshoes on Feb 1, 2011 9:05 AM CST up reply actions

Wait a sec ...

So, because the bulls are amazing on defense, making their defense worse in order to make their league-average offense better … is misguided? We have a lot more room to get better on O than on D, I wouldn’t mind if we’re giving up 2 more points per 100 with Korver in as long as we’re scoring four or five more.

believes in the Keith Bogans Prophecy [12-0]

by Prevenge on Feb 1, 2011 6:34 PM CST up reply actions

Nobody would mind that either

We just don’t think it would turn out that way. Did you notice how in the Memphis game Mayo was kind of sleep-walking through most of the game- until Korver started guarding him? And then he woke up and made about 5 shots in a row? Do you ever notice what happens when Korver has to guard a player who can create his own shot? Their eyes light up and they start shooting.

by Gorditadog on Feb 1, 2011 10:56 PM CST up reply actions

Who has Bogans put the locks on?

I don’t get to watch every Bulls game, but I’ve seen enough to know he’s not THAT great on D. I’ll take Korver’s above average shooting/below average D over Bogans’ below average shooting/average D in the starting lineup.

by Ceasaleo on Feb 2, 2011 12:29 AM CST via mobile up reply actions

These are some of the people who disgree with you about Bogan's defense:

Doc Rivers, Bernie Bickerstaff, Brian Hill, Jeff Van Gundy, Stan Van Gundy and Gregg Popovich. These are the NBA coaches, before Tibs, who started Bogans at shooting guard. By the way, they have won 239 playoff games and made 9 NBA Finals appearances between them

by Gorditadog on Feb 2, 2011 9:09 AM CST up reply actions

either you're Bogans brother or just really dumb...

the 1st 3 coaches you listed all got fired because they coached the sorry Magic, before Dwight Howard. Bogans was a 1st round pick of that team and they basically had no other option, but to play him. Plus, to put Bernie Bickerstaff and Brian hill up there like they are respectable NBA coaches is laughable. under JvG, he played all of 33 games with the Rockets, so it’s not like he made a big impact, especially when that Houston team was built around T-mac and Yao. His 2nd stint in Orl was forgettable and basically he was the only big guard they had with any type of experience, so he was a default starter. In SA, he just held the spot warm for Manu, then was on the bench for the rest of the game.
So again I ask where is the specialness? Seems to me that when he starts it’s basically out of default, not because he was the better player.

by Ceasaleo on Feb 2, 2011 11:39 AM CST up reply actions

no one is arguing...

that he is “special”. The point is that, especially given the defense-oriented team that Thibs is building, it is far from obvious that he should not be starting.

Most fans have jumped all over Thibs for his decision as if he were a Del Negro-type moron, which, ironically, is moronic in and of itself. That’s not to say that Thibs doesn’t make mistakes, but given what he has done thus far with a team that has not even yet been at full strength, it’s laughable to suggest that he has been making a major mistake all along.

For the modest minutes that Bogans plays, it’s highly debatable whether or not switching Brewer or Korver into the starting five would help the currently constructed team significantly, if at all.

by badnewsintennisshoes on Feb 2, 2011 12:19 PM CST up reply actions

Problem is

Why would any of these teams want our guys? I mean I don’t remember GarPax fighting mutliple other GM’s for Bogans services…..

And could JJ’s value be any lower right now? He’s still a few years away from being a guy you can count on for a role off the bench. Sure he’s got raw athleticism, but he makes the Tyrus turnovers look good.

Why oh why would we be able to clearly net the better player (and in the terms of Thornton also get a 2nd, to give them crap and our perhaps 25th-27th pick/saddle their cap with a likely unusable player?

Nice ideas for the adds to our roster, but we’d have to give up likely Korver, Brewer or maybe in a bigger Deal Deng to get a deal done. iF WE don’t want Bogans and we were one of the very very few teams that wanted him signing him to a min deal at the end of the summer, then why after his less than stellar year, would anyone else now really want him?

It's almost 2011 Bulls. Let's Get Grimy!!!

by majoyenrac on Feb 1, 2011 11:41 AM CST reply actions

I don't want to give up anyone on our team that plays significant minutes (minus Keith Bogans)

Which is why I want Courtney Lee.

Is it depressing that our starting shooting guard has only scored 6 points 12 times, or is it impressive that the Bulls have gone 12-0 in those games? Mind blowing.

by wrigleyrocker12 on Feb 1, 2011 3:14 PM CST reply actions

As nice as it would be to get rid of Bogans...

I don’t think it is do able in a trade. The only way to get Bogans replaced in the lineup is picking up another player without losing Brewer, Korver, or even Taj. Thibs likes starting Bogans because running him with the first team he isn’t counted on for scoring. Bringing in Korver and brewer off the bench hides Brewer’s lack of a perimeter game and also hides Korver’s inability to defend. I propose a trade something like this:

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=4e8ut3g

Bulls get: Wilson Chandler from the Kicks
Kicks get: O.J. Mayo, the Bulls first round pick, and the Grizzlies first round pick.
Grizzlies get: James Johnson and Anthony Randolph

Why the Bulls make this trade: It allows them to move Korver into the Starting SG spot opening up the floor even more for the Rose and Boozer pick and roll. It also Brings in a quality back up for Deng so he will not play as many minutes. Finally it improves the Bulls second unit defense which Thibs is huge on. Imagine Brewer, Chandler and Taj coming off the bench. The Second unit offense will not hurt much as Chandler can knock down the three and is capable of creating his own shot.

Why the Knicks make this trade: They can put OJ Mayo into the Starting two guard spot or bring him off the bench as a potent scorer. Mayo needs a change of scenery and can possibly thrive in New York. The Knicks also receive two first round picks that can increase their odds of landing Carmelo. Chandler was to be included in the previous Carmelo deal but I believe that Denver would rather have draft picks in return.

Why the Grizzlies make this trade: First, they get rid of Mayo which they have simply had enough of. Secondly, they receive a top flight prospect in Randolph which could help ease the pain of losing Gasol or Z. Randolph in the off-season. They also receive another young prospect with good upside in James Johnson. The Bulls may also need to give up a second round pick to the Grizzlies to make this deal happen.

by Run M on Feb 1, 2011 3:33 PM CST reply actions

That Grant Hill shit is ideal.

Especially because, if Phoenix decides to blow it up in 2011, they might actually dump an expiring Hill on the Bulls for a first-round pick and James Johnson on a rookie deal.

by jpx7 on Feb 1, 2011 9:20 PM CST reply actions

That was thinking behind it

I don’t think they have a pick in the 1st round at all (might be wrong on that). But you would like to think, that if they fall out of serious contention in the West, that they would make Grant available. And getting a 1st with a young SF with upside might be enough, remember they liked JJ back during the draft process. If I was Grant, I’d ask to be shipped to a contender. He’s on his last legs in the league and hasn’t sniffed a Finals appearance, its got to be something he and the team would think about.

by Ceasaleo on Feb 2, 2011 12:41 AM CST via mobile up reply actions

Korver is a back up forward

There is zero chance that he becomes the Bulls starting shooting guard.

by Gorditadog on Feb 1, 2011 10:40 PM CST reply actions

OK Let me give you another example

Remember the Miami game? Wade scored 33 but the Bulls won at the end? Well Bogans and Brewer shut down Wade pretty good- while those two were guarding him he had 14 points. However Luol spent 4-5 minutes at the end of each half on Wade, and got absolutely fried. Although Deng has a reputation as a decent defender at the small forward, he was clearly not quick enough to guard a top 2-guard, and Wade put up 19 on him in the 8-9 minutes he had the opportunity. If Deng could not guard Wade, how do you think Deng’s slow-footed back-up would have done?

by Gorditadog on Feb 2, 2011 8:53 AM CST reply actions

Putting aside what your argument is actually about...

1. Bogans is definitely more slow-footed than Deng.
2. Bogans was absolutely torched by Wade to start the game and overall played limited minutes.
3. Deng’s catching fire to close the game largely contributed to his effective scoring on Deng. I doubt that, in that particular instance, if Brewer were on him the results of that would have changed.

Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.; Anti-Frohawk since 2005.

by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Feb 2, 2011 11:12 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs

???

1. Don’t think so & am surprised you suggest it. It’s common knowledge that Deng is not quick enough to play the 2, while Bogans has made a career as a defender at that position.
2. Wade made 2 shots against Bogans during 14 minutes that Bogans guarded him. Bogans had a steal and also drew a charge against Wade.
3. Brewer shut Wade down, and if you remember after Wade lit Deng up Tibs brought Brewer back in to guard Wade at the end- Wade lost the ball on his next possession and then had to throw up a wild shot at the buzzer.

by Gorditadog on Feb 2, 2011 2:20 PM CST up reply actions

Deng can guard big SG’s who like to post up, or use their size to shoot over defenders
Guys like Kobe or Joe Johnson he can do a good job on. Small fast SG’s like Wade or Monta Ellis…are going to be more of a problem.

News flash: Luol Deng is good...We now return you to your regularly scheduled hating...

by kingles on Feb 2, 2011 5:50 PM CST up reply actions

That's what Brewer

and in crunch time D.Rose are for..
I bet Wade wouldn’t have been as fresh at the end of the half or game, if he had to chase Korver around screens all day, instead of freelancing because his assignment on D is a non-factor.

by Ceasaleo on Feb 2, 2011 11:42 AM CST up reply actions