Luol Deng for Defensive Player of the Year
The argument I'm about to make is pretty simple in essence: Luol Deng has been the best defensive player on the best defensive team in the league and should therefore, at the very least, receive some consideration for defensive player of the year.
First of all, it's pretty reasonable to say that the Bulls have been the best defensive team in the league this year. The Bulls have a 100.1 DRtg this year. For those of you who don't know, DRtg is an all-encompassing statistic which records how many points the opposing team scores for every 100 team possessions. It accounts for the whole shebang: field goal percentage, free throw attempts, turnovers, and rebounding. The Bulls are ranked 1st in the entire league by this measure (the Celtics are a close 2nd at 100.5 and the Magic are a distinct 3rd at 102.0).
Now with that in mind, the next topic of conversation is determining which player on the Bulls has made the largest contribution to the Bulls' defensive excellence. Ask a random Bulls fan who the Bulls' best defensive player is, and I'm guessing the popular answer is going to be Joakim Noah. Now, I love Joakim Noah as much as the next guy, but it's pretty hard to make much of an impact when you're not on the floor. Noah's missed quite a few games now with his hand injury, and the Bulls have actually played better defense as a team in his absence. You can chalk a lot of that up to the fact that the Bulls schedule was much more difficult in the early part of the season, but the point still stands that the Bulls haven't really missed Noah that much defensively.
As I said previously, it's pretty hard to make much of an impact when you're not on the floor. Scroll over to your favorite basketball stats-keeping website and you'll see that Luol Deng has led the Bulls in minutes played this year with 1570. The only other Bull that's even close is Derrick Rose with 1476. Ronnie Brewer, Taj Gibson, Joakim Noah, Omer Asik and Kurt Thomas have all played brilliant defense at times this season, but it's pretty clear that none of them have been as impactful as Deng, because none of them have been on the court nearly as much. As for Rose, the strides he's made defensively have been wonderful, but he still has a ways to go to be called an elite defender. Besides, it's very difficult to have a large defensive impact as a PG for the simple reason that the PG spends so much time out on the perimeter that he can't really do much in terms of protecting the paint, which is what good defense is all about.
So with all that said, I'm now going to talk about Deng's defense specifically. I'm not going to attempt to extensively use advanced statistics to support my point for two reasons. The first is that attempting to quantify a player's defensive contribution is something that is incredibly difficult to do; all existing defensive statistics are at least somewhat flawed. The other reason is that, from my experience, most of the people who buy into advanced statistical analysis are already large supporters of Luol Deng, while most Deng-bashers prefer more qualitative analysis.
Anyways, Deng's defense this year has been undoubtedly superb. He has tremendous length which makes him one of the best at contesting shots. His fundamentals are outstanding; he knows where he's supposed to be and what to do when he gets there. If anybody doubts that, there's a reason that Tom Thibodeau, who has a pronounced reputation as a defensive-minded coach, loves the guy and plays him more than anybody else. Deng routinely guards the other team's best perimeter player (except when he's playing the 4, but more about that later), and generally does a very good job (see today's game vs. Memphis). He's one of the best rebounding SFs in the league, which in and of itself is a very important part of defense, but additionally, his ability to rebound and guard PFs has given Tom Thibodeau a lot of lineup flexibility, which is what allowed the Bulls to largely avoid playing Brian Scalabrine while Carlos Boozer was out.
So there you have it folks. Luol Deng's a great defensive player who's probably been the biggest reason for the Bulls defensive excellence this year. He doesn't get nearly as much credit for his contributions on that end as he deserves, and hopefully this post will change that somewhat. I don't really expect him to win defensive player of the year any time soon as it's extremely hard for a perimeter player to do that, but I'd like to see him, at the very least, be in the discussion.
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in all seriousness though
if we’re going to make the argument of the best defensive player on the best defensive team id say a healthy noah should be in the running
The ultimate fan experience is no longer courtside seats, it's Keith Bogan's job.
Which is more support for Deng
seeing as Noah has not been healthy and Deng has been the defensive mainstay.
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.; Working feverishly to get a Sensodyne Toothpaste Dispenser next to Derrick Rose's Skittles Machine. He's going to need it!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jan 17, 2011 6:02 PM CST up reply actions
itd be nice to see him rebound and generate more TOs though.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
he generates plenty turnovers for us
The ultimate fan experience is no longer courtside seats, it's Keith Bogan's job.
You really are a jerk.
Congratulations?
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 17, 2011 7:04 PM CST up reply actions
Just to clarify...
Going out of your way to knock his perceived offensive weakness when literally NOBODY was talking about this subject. Way to go jerk. At what point do you just admit you are wrong about the guy, or are you somehow generating money from this?
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 17, 2011 7:07 PM CST up reply actions
It was a half-joke, jeez
besides, that’s his schtick.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 17, 2011 7:09 PM CST up reply actions
OK fine, but I'm sick of it...
That’s my schtick.
by Khalid El-Amin on Jan 17, 2011 7:11 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
It's funny how
somewhere along the line I started thinking of you as actually being Khalid El-Amin.
by BigTimeGunner on Jan 17, 2011 7:25 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
God you're annoying
"I may be, with the exception of Kirk Hinrich, the whitest player in the NBA" -Paul Shirley
by BroLaxChill on Jan 17, 2011 11:48 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
agreed, sin's schtick blows.
schtick blows, in general. (except mine of course)
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 18, 2011 10:21 AM CST up reply actions
i like how you always cover your ass
i guess that’s part of what it takes to be a professional blogger
"I'm broadening my horizons past basketball to vocabulary." - Jeff Van Gundy
by paddyfairview on Jan 18, 2011 4:03 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
or a professional asshole
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 18, 2011 4:07 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
!!!
Luol Deng Turnover Rate: 9.78
Carmelo Anthony Turnover Rate: 10.5
ZOMG!!!!
by Basketball on Jan 17, 2011 7:15 PM CST up reply actions 6 recs
It's because he has an ugly dribble
people assume he turns it over a lot after they see him turn it over once.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 17, 2011 7:27 PM CST up reply actions
i was just thinking about this after yesterday's game
when he penetrates/dribbles around, it looks like it requires so much effort and overall just doesn’t look very good
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
lol, I thought that was pretty funny
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
by Juiceboxjerry on Jan 18, 2011 7:28 AM CST up reply actions
He's been pretty good, but he's gonna have to get better to get into the thick of it.
Can he? He sure can. Will he? Not sure.
Does anyone else have any idea what this means?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Based on past history, I think it's clear Deng has no shot at the award
But, it would at least be nice to see him get on either the All-Defensive 1st or 2nd team.
by JSB on Jan 17, 2011 6:31 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
Yep. Gotta be a great offensive player or get some sort of special buzz as a defensive specialist to win it.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Definitely All-Defense candidate at the 3 spot…yes….DPOY overall….no.
by C Smoove on Jan 17, 2011 6:45 PM CST reply actions 5 recs
Yeah
I agree with that
Did you vote for the ASG today?
by JustAnotherFan on Jan 17, 2011 6:47 PM CST up reply actions
Sadly he probably won't get much consideration
given he has rather low block and steal #s. But for my money, he’s one of the best team defenders in the entire NBA, and when guarding 3s, he’s among the best in man-to-man situations due to his length and positioning. Lu is frustrating to watch offensively at times, but everyone needs to give it up for his D. He’s top-notch on that end, without question.
Deng/Boozer/Noah: All your rebound are belong to us.
yep
just dont put him on guards…seriously…thibs…wtf??
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
If we didn't have Rose, his offensive weaknesses would be a bigger problem
Given Rose’s enormous offensive skills, I think he is a perfect complement as the 3. Especially when he shoots the ball like he did today.
I literally cannot wait to see this team when we have Rose, Brewer/Korver, Deng, Boozer and Noah all used to playing together. And if we can get a third SG option, that would be ok with me too.
Rec'd for giving props to Luol. That was very brave of you. Lolz.
AND ONE!!!!!! YOU MUTHAFUCKING PIECE OF SHIT REF!!!! AND ONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
by Juan dela Cruz on Jan 17, 2011 7:15 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
This doesn't make sense to me
Noah’s missed quite a few games now with his hand injury, and the Bulls have actually played better defense as a team in his absence. You can chalk a lot of that up to the fact that the Bulls schedule was much more difficult in the early part of the season, but the point still stands that the Bulls haven’t really missed Noah that much defensively.
You addressed a pretty important point but you seemingly minimized it. We have faced a top-10 offensive team 3 times since Noah has been out (and two of those were Boston and Miami, when both were missing key players). In the 24 games Noah played in, we faced a top-10 offense 10 times.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 17, 2011 7:17 PM CST reply actions 1 recs
The focus of this post was obviously Luol Deng, and he's been around for the entire season, including both the tough stretches and the easier ones.
I wasn’t trying to marginalize Noah at all. I actually think the Bulls’ defensive success in his absence says more about how well Kurt Thomas has played than anything else, as well as how mild our schedule has been lately.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 17, 2011 7:27 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Oh and if your point is that Joakim Noah is a better defensive player than Luol Deng, that's fine
But in my mind, DPOTY, MVP, and all the other awards just be based on how much total impact a player has had. That is, all else equal, a guy who’s played more minutes/games should be given the edge.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Not what I'm saying at all (although it could very well be true)
What im saying is we have been without Noah and have still managed to be elite. Therefore, the rest of the roster deserves the credit for that.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 12:14 PM CST up reply actions
That's what you got?
Think of it terms of points per game. If Noah scored more ppg than Luol, but not by much, but he missed 1/3 of the season, Noah would score a whole hell of a lot less total points. Polo is saying that the “total” points is more important than ppg when you’re talking about MVP, DPOY, etc.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
or maybe hes saying health matters?
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
I'm saying being on the court matters
And health is obviously a big part of that.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 3:29 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Actually, I don't think that's an indefensible position at all.
After all, if Kurt Thomas is able to step in for Noah, he’s clearly not irreplaceable. There aren’t many players in the league with the package Deng brings on D, and there definitely aren’t on this team.
This is an interesting, and timely, thesis.
Your points are well taken. 1st or 2nd all defensive team should certainly be doable.
hes never going to get 1st defensive cause lebron is never going to lose that spot
The ultimate fan experience is no longer courtside seats, it's Keith Bogan's job.
He could easily lose that spot
just not by Luol Deng
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 17, 2011 11:30 PM CST up reply actions
gerald wallace...
i mean….the guy might be the best defender hands down in the entire league (or at least my favorite)
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
youre dumb!
dont you know the rules??
HAND DOWN. MAN DOWN!!!!
The ultimate fan experience is no longer courtside seats, it's Keith Bogan's job.
Yeah, Luol's been great
But…Dwight’s got DPOY locked down for the next 10 years or so
by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jan 17, 2011 10:32 PM CST reply actions
It's funny
I feel like voters give that to him as a consolation prize for not winning MVP.
It’s like “sorry you play at the same time as Lebron.”
we will see
I doubt LeBron gets the MVP this year so Dwight can really go for it
Did you vote for the ASG today?
by JustAnotherFan on Jan 18, 2011 7:29 AM CST up reply actions
eh
maybe its more like motivation…dwight howard really doesnt play as dominating as he should. Last night during the celtics game there were times when he had trouble backing down big baby davis? If the comparison to dwight should be shaq, well….shaq in his prime was really unstoppable….its why hack a shaq was invented….there are times when dwight resembles that…but there are also times when you wonder why dwight hasnt yet dunked the ball on the guy guarding him yet…
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Jan 18, 2011 10:32 AM CST up reply actions
Shaq and Dwight should Average 15 boards a game
Its hard to go all out evey time, I guess.
I mean Shaq should have 150-200 games where he got 20 and 20. I would guess its closer to 50.
Like Wilt, Shaq stopped himself.
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
those 2 monsters can't get 15 boards?
OK
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Since 1990, a player has averaged 15+ boards a game only 8 times
Dennis Rodman did it 6 times. Kevin Willis did it once and so did Ben Wallace, and those two were barely over the threshold. It is ridiculously hard to average 15 rebounds a game over the course of an entire season and the fact that you expect that out of Howard/Shaq is accordingly ridiculous.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Kevin Love
is on pace for it this year.
Along with over 20 PPG and over 40% from three. Which would make him the first player in the history of basketball to do so. And yet he probably won’t be an All-Star.
That’s another discussion.
Anarchist. Misanthrope. Beard aficionado.
It is not ridic
If they wanted to. Are you fucken kidding me?
Shaq in his prime can’t go for 15 a night?
Do you watch Howard? When he doesn’t have the ball, he BARELY MOVES. He gets rebounds cuz he’s big, not because he works at it. It would also make Orlando unbeatable. Except he doesn’t want to hustle.
If Kevin Love and Willis and Ben Wallace can, those two if they wanted I’m sure could. Did you know Wilt led the league in assists one year? Because he wanted to.
ALas there is little glory in rebounding compared to scoring and dunking,
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
And you do know they are the biggest, most athletic centers ever, right?
So how come they haven’t done it? Don’t want it enough.
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
I'm not going to defend Shaq, because, well he was a lazy ass much of his career
Stil, Dwight Howard currently ranks 7th in career TRB%. Hard to imagine he’s that effective while not giving it his all. When you consider how much the pace of play has slown down over the last 20 years in the NBA, 15 rebounds/game is a very, very difficult feat.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
I simply disagree
Rebounding is a lot more than “wanting it.” And honestly, saying things like “Howard could average 15 rebounds if he wanted to” is both an indictment of Howard and the guys who have been stellar rebounders. You’re marginalizing the accomplishments of the guys like Dennis Rodman, Kevin Love, and Ben Wallace by saying such things.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 20, 2011 11:09 AM CST up reply actions 3 recs
i think "wanting it" isn't right
really, what’s accurate to say is that if howard utilized the same strategy/positioning as love/rodman/wallace he’d be even more beastly than them due to his advantage in size. True I guess, but a bit silly of an argument to make. Kinda like saying if Bogans had Rose’s skills and speed he’d be better than rose because of his advantage in size.
Deng is working his butt off, and is having his best year..
I respect that, and am really glad he’s on this team. I’m really glad no one has listened to the “Ship Deng” recommendations, because I think that would make us a worse team. I really, really like this basketball team – the fact that we don’t have an above-average 2 guard is overshadowed by a bunch of other guys, like Deng, showing up and playing like an elite team. Others can beamon bogans or deng or whatever, because I guess that makes them feel good for some reason. Me? I’m just going to enjoy my favorite NBA basketball team in about a decade.
by DisCUBbobulated on Jan 17, 2011 11:25 PM CST reply actions
All Defensive Team
I think All Defensive Team is a great shout! Lu always has to guard the opponents best offensive player — Agree with ChiTownSportsMaster Dwight has the award locked down for a while but also agree with many comments about giving Lu props for his D this year!
Good post
Luol deserves big time credit for how well he’s played on that end of the floor. Now, I don’t think he impacts the game nearly as much as a guy like Howard, so I think him actually getting the award is a pipe dream.
Until Keith Bogans is taken out of the starting lineup, it's: Tommy Del Thibo
Deng's having a good year
but you don’t award DPOY because a player is arguably the best defender on arguably the best defensive team. You give it to the best defensive player. And, as much as I don’t like it, Dwight Howard is light-years ahead of everyone else in the NBA in that regard and will probably win the award another half-dozen times.
Not that I think he's right . . .
(in fact, I think he’s kind of an idiot a lot of the time), but the awards guy on ESPN.com used exactly the “best defensive player on best defensive team” argument for recognizing Mbah a Moute earlier this year.
If a sf can't guard 2's .......not a great defender
also slow on rotations sometimes, more block fouls than charges taken, i would wager
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Let's stop the hate ppl.
He can guard quite a few SGs…what SF can be expected to guard all SGs. That’s like saying if a SG can’t guard all SFs, he is garbage. Also taking charges isn’t always a sign of good D, it’s flopping.
why?
if he can guard 3s and 4s, who cares if he can’t guard 2s?
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
by Illini0509 on Jan 18, 2011 12:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
exactly
it was more thibs fault for ever thinking luol could guard wade than it was wades fault for being unable to…setting your guys up to fail like that is pretty cruel. Luol can contain some of the better sf in the league, and can actually go against some pfs….i dont think hes defensive player of the year worthy, and with guys like gerald wallace and lebron james around i dont htink hell make the 1st d team, but certainly consideration for second
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Jan 18, 2011 12:15 PM CST up reply actions
I thought deng actually did a good job on wade
At the end of the game, Deng forced Wade into taking two off-balance 3s. They both went in, but as a defender you can’t really ask more of a guy than to force your man to take a difficult shot.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 12:29 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
no deng did the right thing
but he doesnt have the ability to matchup right against wade. Take a look at it again, deng concedes a lot of room to wade, using just his long arms to ‘face guard’ wade. He has to do this because wade is just that much faster than deng, so deng has to play off him a bit. Wade might have looked off balanced, but his mechanics on those shots were pretty much uncontested, nothing altered them. In order for deng to really contest wades shot he would have to move closer, and if that wasnt near the end of the game, wade would have had a huge advantage. Because then wade could just pump fake, let luol deng take a step forward, and then blow past him.
Its not dengs fault hes so damn tall and rose is shorter, that height advantage actually works in favor of wade because wade’s bread and butter is driving past guys and forcing them to foul. Deng can do a better job on taller guys (aka other sfs) because they dribble a bit higher, there is more body for deng to keep up with, putting deng on a 6’4 quick sg is just asking him to fail.
SO yes, deng did everything right on that defensive play, but it ultimately doesnt matter, its a bad matchup and simply doing things right doesnt win u that matchup…
Brewer clearly did the best job on wade. He has the quickness and athleticism to stay close to wade and react to his deceptive moves, while at the same time has the mental discipline to refrain from over reaching or jumping. His quick hands are also a plus. Deng is the better system defender, but brewer is just terrific to watch in a man situation.
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
by piccolomair on Jan 18, 2011 2:02 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
The first 3 he took was, more or less, as you described
But the second one Wade made wasn’t mechanically sound at all (2:48 in this vid). In any case, I think if you can get Dwyane Wade to settle for a jumper, you’ve done your job.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 2:08 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Brewer may be more fun to watch in a man situation, but
he is less effective than Deng in a man situation because he is less disciplined.
yea i agree
i mean brewer was more diciplined than your average athletic 2 guard, but deng is certainly the smarter defender….still in that game brewer did one hell of a job on wade, and continued to do so for that last possession whereas deng was put in a situation where he was bound to fail.
Deng can guard the kobes and Joe johnsons fine, but putting him on a guy like wade, you need someone who can keep up with wade…for that situation it should be brewer not deng..its not hard to see….no matter how good of a job you think deng did or didnt do, its hard to argue that brewer wasnt the ideal defender on wade, and shouldve remained. Brewer was doing just fine, then thibs decided to sit him, keep korver in, and replace brewer with deng…i cant agree with that decision, especially since we had the lead, i wouldve left brewer and replaced korver with deng. As great as korvers shot was (and it seemed to do wonders for his swag) that shot might never have been needed if brewer remained in the game with deng….
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
Actually
I’d say they should’ve put Rose on Wade full-time ;)
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 18, 2011 4:32 PM CST up reply actions
He didn't really force him.
It looked like Wade was trying to do that the entire time. Deng was completely off-balance.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 18, 2011 4:28 PM CST up reply actions
He does guard 2s sometimes (usually the bigger ones like kobe, joe johnson, jackson, etc.) and does a good job most of the time
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 12:18 PM CST up reply actions
yeah your right
he can guard some 2s, but I wouldnt call him great. He’s a pretty good defender.
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Which 3s are better overall defenders?
Sure, a guy like Iguodala might be better at guarding 2s, but I would like to see him guard some of the 4s Lu has been put on.
The ones that have made the various all defensive teams the last 5 years
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Nice non-answer
Here’s the list of 3 types that have been named first or second team over the last 5 years: LeBron, Gerald Wallace, Josh Smith, Ron Artest, Shane Battier, Tayshaun Prince, Bruce Bowen, Andrei Kirilenko.
Bowen is retired.
LeBron made 1st team all-defense last year. I think Luol is consistently a better defensive player over the course of an entire season.
Gerald Wallace I might have to give you. Josh Smith it’s hard to say. Smith is clearly the better shot-blocker, so I might give you that one too.
Prince, Battier and Artest are both old now. I’d take Lu over any one of those 3 at this point. Honestly, Kirilenko has been hurt so much the last couple years, I have no idea if he is better defensively or not right not.
by JSB on Jan 18, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
Fine, I concede on the internets, alert the media
“commenter admits defeat in online discussion, report at 4:30”
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
These days they're starting Smith at the 3 with Williams coming off the bench.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 18, 2011 10:51 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
Solid Point
Good points across the board! Plus with Bulls being one of the best Defensive teams this year (stats back this up) you would say Lu would be in the All-Def Team as he is the most consistent Bulls defender.
by sharpshooter5 on Jan 19, 2011 9:08 AM CST up reply actions
I'm guessing you based this notion solely on his work against Wade
who is somebody that a heck of a lot of people have trouble guarding.
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.; Working feverishly to get a Sensodyne Toothpaste Dispenser next to Derrick Rose's Skittles Machine. He's going to need it!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jan 18, 2011 12:52 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
yeah, no matter whot he defender is.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No, I've seen every game that Lu has played
WtF would I base it on one game?
Even a noob Bulls fan wouldn’t do that
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
He's not slow on rotations
For a guy that’s 6’8-6’9 with a 7’0 wingspan, Lu is very mobile.
And I would wager that every player in the NBA gets more block fouls than charges.
by JSB on Jan 18, 2011 1:00 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Its not his mobility (aint great by the way)
Its his late reaction
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Well its not always
Its occasional from what I see.
He also has trouble closing out on 3 pt shooter. Come on folks Lu’s D is not “great”
"I love you, mommy!" - Joakim Noah
Fine, it's not great, it very good
I really don’t think that distinction matters at all.
Which 3s are consistently better overall defenders? I think it’s a very short list.
Trouble closing out on a 3pt shooter ?
I think he does it pretty effectively.
by JockstrapNoah on Jan 18, 2011 4:13 PM CST up reply actions
sixteen recs? who are we kidding?
no offense, good post, and i’m a shameless homer too. i’m just saying…
"I'm broadening my horizons past basketball to vocabulary." - Jeff Van Gundy
by paddyfairview on Jan 18, 2011 4:06 PM CST reply actions 3 recs
"no offense, good post"
DPOY pun?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jan 18, 2011 4:08 PM CST up reply actions 5 recs
LOL
quick on the draw. i guess that’s what it takes to be a professional asshole blogger. wish i had that job.
(…put in a good word for me? i’m better at english than sam smith, which narrows the field down to, i dunno, five billion)
"I'm broadening my horizons past basketball to vocabulary." - Jeff Van Gundy
by paddyfairview on Jan 18, 2011 5:12 PM CST up reply actions
Defensive Player of the Year is a bit absurd
Dwight Howard should win that award every year right now. And actually, I think it’s hard to ever justify a perimeter defender over a big man considering how important defending the rim is in today’s game (what with no hand-checks and stuff).
the luol fans come out now
But they are nowhere to be found during the games when he’s fking shit up
The ultimate fan experience is no longer courtside seats, it's Keith Bogan's job.
by sin on Jan 18, 2011 4:18 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
cuz they are true luol fans
right down to imitation, when he dont show up, we dont show up…..when he shows up big, we show up big…….till this day, whenever i shoot a 3 i make sure i keep my heels on the 3pt line, and after the game i always let everyone know that the other team had no dunks
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
What does this even mean?
You expect Deng fans to say ‘Yeah, he missed that wide open 3 but AT LEAST HE PLAYS GOOD D!!’?
If he messes up, then he messes up, and all of us are pissed.
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 18, 2011 4:33 PM CST up reply actions
No
But I do notice that guys who are ardent Deng supporters are quick to call anyone who criticize his play every name short of a retarded asshole, and are pretty snobbish about it too. Yet they are never there when he’s having one of his classic no show games. It’s easier to just wait until later and throw stats in someone’s face and scream “18 and 7!, 18 and 7!” At least show up on the game thread and explain why his 18 and 7 but no points in the 4th quarter was a good thing.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
OH NOES!!! A BAD MAN ON THE INTERNETS CALLED YOU A BAD WORD!!
Grow some thicker skin.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 20, 2011 10:40 PM CST up reply actions
It's not about name calling. Big deal
It’s about anal Deng supporters that never seem to be on the gamethreads when he sucks. I just find that ironic.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
Well sorry I don't have knee-jerk reactions to every little thing
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 21, 2011 12:22 PM CST up reply actions
Damn if that
isn’t what a gamethread is.. “A knee jerk reaction to every little thing”
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
Why would anyone want to be on the game threads when he doesn't play well?
Should we sit there and be annoyed by all of the inane whining and complaining?
Dr. Handsome, D.D.S.; Working feverishly to get a Sensodyne Toothpaste Dispenser next to Derrick Rose's Skittles Machine. He's going to need it!
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Jan 21, 2011 1:14 PM CST up reply actions
No one is saying that
All I was doing was agreeing with Sin about the fact that no one who is a big time Deng supporter ever seems to be on the gamethreads. It’s really not that controversial of a statement. It’s just an observation.
Example.. Juiceboxjerry has to be one of the hugest critics, positively or negatively, on this blog when it comes to Derrick Rose. Yet there he is almost every game giving his opinion about what he’s seeing. Whether people agree,disagree, or give him hell for it, at least he’s there to attest to what he’s seeing and explain why he feels that way. But huge Deng supporters, are almost never in the gamethreads. Then when someone says something bad about his game in a post, here they come running out like the Deng Foot Patrol to stump a hole in anyone’s critique of him. Again it’s just an observation.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
I see Deng supporters
in the game threads all the time. I’ve seen many arguments in the threads about Luol.
A lovely story:
One day, long, long ago, there lived a woman who didn't whine, nag or bitch. That would be me....
But that was a long time ago and it was just that one day.
The end
i am on gamethreads
i support deng
Rodman is the best.
I'm guessing we don't feel the need to go on about it every day
you can look at the top of this page for an explanation for why Luol is a useful player
I know he's a useful player
and I think he’s having a good year. He’s exceeded what I thought he would do this year. But his deficiencies are still an issue the way this team has been constructed. If we get a SG then great. But if not, changes at SF may still need to be made.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
is the assumption that 18 points isn't useful because none came during the 4th quarter?
On a related note, someone who knows more about our stats might be able to fill this in…is our 4th quarter offense considerably worse than our previous 3 quarters? If so, then I guess you could say Deng is a liability in the 4th, but if we’re not suffering, then what can he do? If he’s not taking the shot then someone else is (or we’re turning it over). Would anyone prefer him taking crunch time shots to Rose?
Don't confuse Rose's greatness with Deng's effectiveness
In other words, just because Rose is great at taking a game into his hands in 4th qtrs doesn’t mean it’s acceptable for Luol Deng to totally disappear in crunch time. He’s picked up his defense..great. But when he has a chance to nail an open 3 ball in a critical part of a game, he needs to do it. When he has a chance to hit critical free throws that can ice a game, he needs to do it.
Offensively, in terms of being able to dribble, create a shot, or be clutch, he is a liability. So in that sense, there needs to be more to his 18 and 7. Funny thing is that I think he’s having a great year and I haven’t been as critical as I use to be of him. Plus Thibs is playing him an awful lot and he needs some rest. But it would be nice to see him step up to take some pressure off of Rose at the end of games. If he can do it in the 1st qtr why the hell not the 4th?
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
But when he has a chance to nail an open 3 ball in a critical part of a game, he needs to do it. When he has a chance to hit critical free throws that can ice a game, he needs to do it.
That’s the part I don’t understand entirely. Does his FG% drop off a cliff in the 4th, or does he not take shots? If he’s missing, then there’s no arguing that he’s a liability. But if it’s just that the ball doesn’t get to him that often in the 4th, it’s not entirely his fault. I’m a gigantic noob at navigating basketball-reference.com, so I might just be ignorant here.
"But when he has a chance to nail an open 3 ball in a critical part of a game, he needs to do it. When he has a chance to hit critical free throws that can ice a game, he needs to do it."
You know, it’s funny. I’ve actually seen Deng hit open 3 balls in the 4th quarter (WITH MY OWN EYES, NOT BY LOOKING AT STATS!!!). I’ve seen him hit FTs in the 4th quarter too.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 21, 2011 1:17 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
i've been defending deng for ages, not because he's great, but because there are other people we should be yelling at more
"I'm broadening my horizons past basketball to vocabulary." - Jeff Van Gundy
by paddyfairview on Jan 18, 2011 5:40 PM CST up reply actions
No seriously
that’s true.
Hey Rose. I don't see the appeal!
For the record, I don't honestly believe that Deng should win DPOY
IMO, nobody besides Dwight Howard and Andrew Bogut should have a legitimate shot. But I do think Deng’s been arguably as good as anybody else, and he’s far more deserving of mention than a lot of guys who have been getting mentioned. Glen Davis, Luc Richard Mbah a Moute, and Chris Paul have seen their names pop up on ESPN’s DPOY watch list, and I’d Deng over each of them.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Andrew Bogut? Glen Davis?
Really? That seems absolutely insane.
i think he leads the league in charges, or close to it, so thats likely where that notion
comes from.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
I think he is in the discussion
but to say he or anyone wins it at this point of the season is unformed.
He is in the discussion. Plays good d every night, ill admit his offense at times is hit or miss but solid d EVERY night against great scorers.
Rodman is the best.
Regarding Deng, I have to agree with Sam overall when he says:
The Bulls rank as the league’s leading defensive team without one true top defender at his position, or, really, even close.
Here.
Although on second thought, Noah is close… isn’t he?
"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris
Sam Smith is dumb
Haven’t we established that?
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 19, 2011 1:06 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
its pretty hard to call noah a top tier defender when hes so bad at defending his own position.
its kind of funny how vastly, vastly superior 38 year old kurt thomas is at defending centers than noah, who seems to get abused with regularity. now help defense is probably another story, but still.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
I think you're overstating Noah's inablility to guard centers
by Stacey_Is_King on Jan 19, 2011 4:27 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
82 games has noahs PER at center as 20.8 and his opponent PER at 20.2. that seems pretty bad.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
Maybe Noah's a PF
shudders
The Miami Heat: Like ants and a magnifying glass. ... OH NO! CHRIS BOSH’S BEAUTIFUL FACE!!!!!!!!
He just needs a couple more off seasons of bulking up
Look at the way Tyson Chandler’s developed his body and game throughout his career. There’s no reason to think Noah can’t or won’t do the same.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
by snley on Jan 20, 2011 8:54 AM CST up reply actions 2 recs
might be more than that, though not getting backed down so easily will surely help.
noah has a very short standing reach for a center, which could very well mean that he just cant contest shots on centers as effectively as his peers.
"JJ has never made that floater. He’s probably never even practiced it, he just decided to take a floater, which is why he’s James Johnson."
-JocktrapNoah
I don't think he has a short standing reach.
He was hurt during pre-draft camps (for which he immediately did shoulder rehab forever), so I don’t count that.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Jan 21, 2011 3:13 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Noah played the hard part of the schedule though
I would be curious to see the season average of the centers Noah faced vs Thomas.
by tuluse on Jan 20, 2011 1:54 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Let me ask the stat people here what they make of this.
I don’t know how good of a measuring stick DRtg is, but here are some Bulls DRtg’s:
Deng: 103.
Derrick: 102.
Bogans: 103.
Noah: 96.
Boozer: 98.
Watson: 101.
Korver: 103.
Brewer: 98.
Taj: 97.
Omer: 97.
Luol and Bogans have the worst DRtg, Joakim has the best. Does this stat carry any importance?
yes
Joakim noah wins…..
I dont care what the D.N.A. Says, the Guy wearing number 12 Cannot be Kirk Hinrich, he is definetly Kurt. Kirk can actually play basketball!
All is does is indicate that Deng and Bogans have the least combined defensive rebound, steal, and block rates
on the Bulls. That’s somewhat useful for comparing big men, but doesn’t mean much when comparing perimeter defenders. For example Joe Dumars who was consistently made All-Defensive tea,s throughout his careers had a career DRtg of 110.
by Scotter on Jan 19, 2011 2:48 PM CST up reply actions 2 recs
I though DRtg just measured points given up per 100 possessions,
and that it wasn’t some type of composite score like PER.
It is intended to estimate that
But the way it’s calculated is by starting with the team DRtg and adjusting it based on defensive rebound, steal and block rates, like Scotter said. I find it to be more or less useless as a statistic.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Jan 19, 2011 3:23 PM CST up reply actions 3 recs
DRtg is points given up per 100 possessions, and it's not like PER.
DRtg gives every player on the team equal credit for forcing missed shots, which means the only difference between players on the same team are defensive rebound, steal, and block rates. That’s all any defensive box score stat has to work with.
PER references the league average, where DRtg is completely tied to the individual team for the reference.
by Scotter on Jan 19, 2011 3:54 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
DRtg not a great indicator!
For example Joe Dumars who was consistently made All-Defensive tea,s throughout his careers had a career DRtg of 110.
Very good point!!!!!
by sharpshooter5 on Jan 24, 2011 7:04 AM CST up reply actions
Deng D this year is really somthing cool to look at
"Where did you get this information and why should I listen to it?" - Stacey King
Nicely put. Stats aside, Deng is shutting key players down when it counts, while at the same time doing his job offensively as the 3rd string scorer.
He’s playing as well as he will ever play, if you expect more from him, you’re are probably being a little unreasonable.
Boom! Asik, Asik, Asik the room.
by mrdope on Jan 19, 2011 9:49 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Expectations
I honestly don’t know what people expect from Deng. I was reading a couple articles on Melo tonight and saw that Nicolas Batum and Danilo Gallinari were players that were mentioned as pieces that could be used in a Melo trade. I was thinking, oh those are good young SFs that I wouldn’t mind having on the Bulls.
I noticed that Gallinari, who’s only real skill is scoring is shooting .420/.369/.880 (TS% of 60.4) on the season, averaging 15.4 pts/game in an up-tempo offense with only 4.5 reb/game (7.3 rebound rate) in 34 min/game. Batum is shooting .444/.309/.778 (TS% of 53.2%) averaging 11.2 pt/s game with 4.7 reb/game (9.3 rebound rate) in 30 min/game.
Deng meanwhile is shooting .452/.347/.720 (TS% of 54%) averaging 17.4 pt/game, while at the same time rebounding 5.9 /game (8.7 reb rate) and playing excellent defense.
I doubt there is any other fan-base in the league that complains so much about a player who is probably in the top 10 at his position. I bet when either Gallinari or Batum come up for extensions (assuming no big changes in the CBA) they would get contracts very similar to what Deng got.
by JSB on Jan 20, 2011 1:24 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think all these deng haters were formerly deng lovers
but then when he did not produce a trade for kobe and turn into a player who could go shot for shot with lebron james or melo they turned on him
I expect deng to be deng, someone who is really good at his position but not excellent.
Offensively he is poor at creating his own shot, and good at working within the offense. He ranks somewhere between 7-14th at his position in this realm.
Defensively he is excellent. He is probably within the top 3-7 sf in the game right now.
People sometimes love the bulls so much I think they forget that no one team can afford or really facilitate more than 2-3 top five position players. We are VERY lucky to have 4 Top ten players, one of which is a top five in the league.
The key now is to find a sg who can play defense good enough to hang with the top tier SG’s and someone who can score 12-16 pts for us. If brewer and korver could morph into the same body we would have a ring in the bag this year. Especially if bogans morphed into that body but as the appendix, and was already operated and removed.
Rodman is the best.
by Rodman4eva on Jan 21, 2011 9:05 PM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I think all these deng haters were formerly deng lovers
but then when he did not produce a trade for kobe and turn into a player who could go shot for shot with lebron james or melo they turned on him
I’m sorry, but don’t even try that. That’s ridiculous, and nobody aside from the true idiots in this city believe that Deng was the sticking point in the Kobe saga. Kobe wasn’t coming here. I, as well as all the other Deng haters, have several reasons we don’t like him. Instead of putting words in our mouth go look around a bit,
by dakoose on Jan 22, 2011 11:45 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
I have looked around
I just dont get it. You guys are unrealistic and ungrateful for this player.
Here are the most salient points of your arguments:
You want him to be a clutch player; he is not but who is truly clutch in the nba? Maybe one or two players on a given team.
He can’t dribble. He is a 6’9" small forward, who openly admits he is not good at creating for himself. If he stopped dribbling he would be really easy to defend. Maybe derrick rose can show him some dribbling drills, or maybe when you are 6’9" and have a 7’ wingspan you can really never be much better than he is now. He only gets 2 turnovers playing 39 minutes.
If he was a clutch shooter, and could create for himself he would be lebron james Kevin durant, or carmelo anthony which would be awesome but there are only three of them in the league.
Rodman is the best.
by Rodman4eva on Jan 24, 2011 8:38 AM CST up reply actions 1 recs
Deng is not the player he was ‘supposed’ to be.
I’ve seen lots of people say they didn’t like him for that reason. Luol is kind of a different type of player though and I can see why he isn’t everybodies cup of tea.
He doesn’t show much emotion or ‘fire’ on the court. This doesn’t bother ME because the Bulls have other players who do that, and he does hustle as much as anyone else.
He looks awkward handling the ball. This can’t even be disputed. This doesn’t bother me(much), because in spite of the awkwardness he does generally manage to get where he’s headed and doesn’t really turn it over that much.
While he is consistent in his scoring overall, he does score in bunches. This does lead to corresponding dry spells in games. I can see where it could be aggravating to have a player score 10pts in a quarter, and then not score for 15 min. straight. I’m ok with this because he’s not the Bulls #1 option(or even #2), plus all the points count and he does put up 17-18 pts pretty consistently.
Deng is a very good defender. Yet he doesn’t get a lot of steals or blocks. He’s just doesn’t make many SPECTACULAR plays on defense. Consistently forcing tough shots is good enough for me, but not for everybody.
News flash: Luol Deng is good...We now return you to your regularly scheduled hating...
by kingles on Jan 23, 2011 2:49 AM CST up reply actions 8 recs
People are different.
Some are openers, some are consistent, some are closers. You can’t have all closers because a) you’ll always be losing in the 4th and b) not everyone get enough shots to stay in a groove. Consistency throughout the game is good, but those guys are rare if they’re not stars like Wade, James, Nowitski, etc.
As long as the team has a good mix (Deng is an opener, sorta, Boozer is pretty consistent, Rose is a closer and consistent (although not consistently, consistent). It works.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
who's not defensive player of the year...
I can tell you who’s not the defensive player of the year and that’s keith bogans….on a side note, i saw Kurt Thomas at Moe’s Cantina in river north…great guy.
by ChiTownTeez.com on Jan 23, 2011 7:02 PM CST reply actions
nice thought
but no shot at ALL.
The media doesn’t even look at him that way. On NBATV the other night someone made the comment that nobody on the Bulls is a good defender, but they play great team defense.
If the media (who votes on the award) doesn’t look at him like that, there’s no chance he gets mentioned at all.
Can't blame Deng for getting defensive
considering all the criticism he has to deal with around here.
Lebbeus clarehanna!

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