When 'early' means 'on time' as it comes to Joakim Noah
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 26, 2010 10:49 PM CDT
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There's been no update to Alex Kennedy's Hoopsworld report from Saturday morning stating Noah's unhappiness with his contract situation heading into training camp, including his supposed 'statement' of not showing up at the encouraged early arrival.
Training camp officially starts Monday (yay! news!), and Noah will be there, though contract extension not in hand. The Tribune's KC Johnson (who's certainly proven to be, ahem, 'plugged in' to Bulls management) has taken to the twitter and saying this is nothing to worry about: an extension will be done. Though he covers by saying 'will be' may be next offseason when Noah is a restricted free agent. While not specifically mentioning numbers like the Hoopsworld report, Adrian Wojnarowski reported last week that the two sides were 'far apart'. How can they really close a large gap if one side doesn't negotiate?
It's been reported in past seasons when offering early extensions (which is the contract period Noah's in until the start of the season) that the Bulls often make firm, fair offers that may be considered an eventual discount for them, but with the understanding it provides early security for the player that they don't have to give.
I asked KC directly (twitter is neat like that) whether this is a true negotiation, or more take-it-or-let-market-set-it like the past, and he speculated that this would have more 'give and take'. That's encouraging news, as there hardline approach has rubbed players the wrong way in previous seasons.
I jokingly made the parallel of these trade rumors and contract talks to those of the '07-'08 disaster, and it's still merely tongue-in-cheek. But while the Bulls encourage players to get to camp early there's a similarly good-faith reason to get contracts done early as well. This year's team is far too talented (though with an inexperienced head coach) to fold like that Ben Wallace-'led' Bulls team did, but it still seems simply unnecessary to have uncertainty with one of your self-touted franchise cornerstones, all to save potentially (at most) a few million each season.
Not that there isn't a limit to what they should offer Noah, but I can't imagine the eventual compromise would be so high (including his rumored stance of $70m over the 5 years) to where I'm upset. The Bulls are capped-out for years to come, any additional funds is just cash from the largest profit-coffers in the league. In contrast, a situation where Noah leaves as a free agent would be pretty indefensible.
So while the Bulls may feel they have no pressure on themselves to act swiftly, there has to be some dollar figure in mind that's worth not going into this season with a disgruntled young cornerstone? I'm not one to buy into 'bad vibes' being worth much consideration, but it's some consideration. The Bulls are basically confirming a summer's worth of verbal commitment to Noah by not including him in a possible deal for Carmelo Anthony. So they should commit officially with a massive pay increase.
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I think there's some point where I'm not OK with signing Noah at any price
The cost of paying too much for players today is not losing that player, but not keeping or getting some other player we need a couple years down the road
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
I don't think YFBB is saying any price
but any of the reported prices.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Right.
We can’t really get any center of his quality easily, so really you’re paying for this team to stay together. We won’t be able to sign players of his quality outright to anything more than MLE, so really Noah has a lot of leverage. Then again, the CBA change looms, and that makes these numbers seem more gaudy than they would if the CBA were likely to increase player salaries.
I spose I'm getting pretty queasy at 5/$70M
Even at 5/$65M, which I think is “fair” in the arbitrary sense of such things, I’m not 100% happy about it. Folks will perceive things entirely differently at that price. I wrote this the other day in thinking about whether we should offer Noah for Melo (still on the fence, but it applies to this conversation…
We won’t be happy with Noah at the price he’s going to command. Really, we haven’t been happy with anyone at the price they’ve gotten for as long as I can remember. This is true whether they re-signed with us (Chandler, Deng, Nocioni, Hinrich) or went elsewhere because the the Bulls wouldn’t pay what some other team would (Gordon, Tyrus, Curry, Crawford). Everyone that’s been re-signed has eventually been traded, except for Deng, whom is not exactly in high demand from what reports tell us.
I know, I know… Noah is different from all those guys. But so was Chandler. He was so different than Curry! And Deng was so different than Gordon! And Nocioni was such a great inspiration that we’d never, ever get sick of him! Well, we did.
I think the number of guys you re-sign and feel unequivocally good about is very small. Like, I don’t feel terrible about Deng. He’s still fairly young, and he’s a well above average, if not spectacular player. I’m not one of those who thinks he’s a terrible value, and in fact I’m surprised that a team like Denver seems to not be at all interested in him. But I understand why they, and anyone else, aren’t excited about him at his cost. His cost takes a lot of other options off the table. He’s not drastically overpaid, but he’s not multiplying your force either on the court or on the cap.
When I think about Noah, I think at worst he’ll be like Deng on his new contract. I don’t think he’d be an outright disastrous re-sign like Nocioni was (that’s how I felt at the time, and I think more time passing bore it out) because Nocioni was a guy who didn’t start and for whom we’d already drafted replacements for (Thabo and Tyrus) when we re-signed.
On the other hand, I’m not sure he’ll be a guy who we any longer look at as a great value when he’s making $10-12M a year. And at that point, his salary will sort of foreclose a lot of other options for getting guys. The point I’m leading to with all of this is that there’s some uncertainty and expectations that are likely to be unmet in how we deal with Noah on a new contract.
With a player from the outside whose value is already set, like Anthony, you pretty much don’t have this sort of issue. I don’t hear anyone really questioning whether Anthony is overpaid or not.
I realize this has nothing to do with fair market value, or how much I like Noah as a player… it’s just the way it is.
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by Sports2 on Sep 27, 2010 7:25 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
whom is not exactly in high demand from what reports tell us.
That’s only the Denver report, which, we probably agree, they should want him, but if they’re going into a complete rebuilding mode, it’s understandable that they don’t. Only rebuilding teams are those that don’t want Deng. If the Bulls were willing to give Deng away, I can’t imagine there aren’t a whole bunch of teams that would take him for 4yrs/<$13 million per. Of course, why would the Bulls want to give him away?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
See, I don't even fully understand why a rebuilding team wouldn't want Deng
At least if the alternative is a bad player on an expiring deal.
I pay Eddy Curry $11M and get fuck all for it. Then I’ve got cap space next year, which I’ll have to use by overpaying a young player, or by acquiring a pick at great expense. In the end, I’ll be pretty lucky to get a young player who’s as good as Deng, and I probably won’t pay much less once you figure in the $11M for Curry and the market premium you’ll have to pay to get a young free agent.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
I don't get that either
but it doesn’t help he’s an injury risk. That could also be the bad similarity Noah shares.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
I sort of agree with you Sports2
But here is my problem. While I think that 5/70 might be a bit too high for Joakim, Melo is going to command a max contract. I don’t want to see him shipped in the deal for Melo because I don’t think Melo is worth a max contract! So, whatever problem there is with paying Noah, I could see those same problems occuring with paying Carmelo. I am doubting he has many more 25+ppg seasons left in him with Rose and Boozer already on the team. Will teams still value Melo for being Melo? That I don’t know.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
what if his efficiency increases
and why would we worry about trading Anthony? wouldn’t we want to keep him?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Ya
The efficiency is pretty hard to account for. He could become an 18ppg scorer with 60% TS pretty easily, but he could just as easily attempt to put up the same shots he does now and his efficiency could just continue to deteriorate. There is no real way to tell.
On the other hand, I’m not sure he’ll be a guy who we any longer look at as a great value when he’s making $10-12M a year. And at that point, his salary will sort of foreclose a lot of other options for getting guys.
I was responding indirectly to this comment. Essentially Noah will block us from getting other guys when he is making 10-12 million a year because it’s a big salary and if he is underachieving for that salary, trading him will be tough. I guess I meant that Melo could be in that same boat a few years down the road if he is granted a max contract, especially pending the new CBA.
"Mental toughness is to physical as four is to one." - Bob Knight
It might even be more reasonable to think that Deng has a higher chance of becoming more efficient.
Melo has been surrounded by pretty good talent (three 50 win seasons in a row, aside from injuries they have had some very good teams in Denver) already, whereas Deng has been surrounded by starting lineups that have included Larry Hughes, Brad Miller, Tyrus, Taj, out of position Hinrich at SG and a host of other players that aren’t starter quality (no offense intended to some of those guys, they are legitimate rotation players, Hinrich is a rotation player when playing SG and not PG).
A few more of those covered long 2s becoming open shots, a few more easy drives to the basket and you could easily see Luol improving his scoring efficiency. Being surrounded by Boozer and an improved Rose and likely progressing Noah would make me think Deng can realistically improve his efficiency.
Melo, on the other hand, has had a solid Billups, a sometimes very productive JR Smith, KMart, Nene and others and hasn’t been efficient. Not saying it’s the most productive lineup ever, but it’s certainly a solid playoff caliber team that relied a lot on offense. That’s a lot more than Chicago has had in a long time.
the denver teams werent all that good
all they did was score like nuts which gets you wins in the regular season but its why they kept falling in the playoffs except for the one year they actually tried on defense.
melo has never had a reliable secondary scorer. iverson was the closest to it.
billups is not someone who can carry the offense every night and help melo out. he does sometimes but still.
that denver team has also never had a post player much like we’ve never had one and we’re all assuming derrick is going to reap the benefits of having a boozer and play so much better. why cant we assume the same about carmelo? especially since his game at the moment would compliment a post player like boozer so well. having a pick and roll with boozer/rose and the option of melo on the wing is pretty deadly.
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
Nene is a lot better than anything we've had in the post in recent years
Chauncey wasn’t a reliable secondary option? 41 and 38% from three, along with almost 20 ppg with 60% TS isn’t awful. How do you define secondary scoring exactly? Your post says Billups can’t carry the offense every night. I don’t think secondary scorers, by definition, are required to carry the offense every night.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
sorry what i meant to say is here he would have someone who could carry the offense for nights
and nene isnt really a great post player
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
well, we're kind of getting him to be the primary scorer
if he can’t do that he’s kinda useless
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Yea.
All I’m saying is that Deng has had less offensive support over the years than Carmelo has.
The relevancy is in response to the “Well if Melo became more efficiency” comments. Was just pointing out that I would probably expect Deng to be more likely to improve efficiency than Melo.
Not saying Melo isn’t worth getting or sucks though.
efficiency is usually increases as usage goes down
given that Deng has a much lower usage rate than Carmelo, but is a less efficient scorer, I don’t see how Deng is of greater likelihood to improve his efficiency than Melo.
by Basketball Smurf on Sep 27, 2010 6:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Denver has always been an above-average team.
That says something for a team that has the defensively-uninterested Carmelo Anthony on their team. Despite him, they’ve been good on defense over the years.
Melo in the wing isn’t that great since he’s not a great outside shooter. Having a good post player alongside Anthony makes it harder for him to excel in the post, one of the things that actually makes him an okay offensive option.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
???
He played with Nene and KMart, so he has played with post players.
Its pretty convenient to say they were good at defense despite of Carmelo – he seems as interested as playing D as anyone else on the team.
Denver only became an above average team when they got Carmelo Anthony. Before that, they were pretty horrible. I’m not saying Carmelo was the sole reason for their turnaround, but he was the main reason.
by Basketball Smurf on Sep 27, 2010 4:50 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep. They went from 17 to 43 wins his rookie year
Won 50 or more the last three. Last year they somewhat disappointed, but they had their equivalent of Pete Myers driving the bus after Karl went out.
This is especially crazy in the context of talking up Deng, who’s pretty much been on .500 teams.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
correlation does not equal causation?
Carmelo Anthony was nowhere near worth 26 wins as a rookie.
The Bulls went from 23 wins to 47 wins in Deng’s rookie year.
So those are good arguments.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Well, you didn't address any but the first season, so I suppose they are :P
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
Andre Miller was traded to the Nuggets in the same year and played the whole season,
and when he left they got Chauncey Billups.
Also, Marcus Camby was injured the year before Carmelo got there [he only played 29 games]: he played the full season afterwards.
You also have to consider who Carmelo was replacing: Rodney White [who?] and some combination of Viktor something and Nikolas Tshitsthisthsi-annoying name. The next season, not-crazily-injured Kenyon Martin came in and produced immediately. When Andre Miller left, Allen Iverson [who was still effective at that point] replaced him, and then they traded him for Billups.
Anthony improved the Nuggets, but to give him all the credit for that turnaround isn’t accurate.
[And yes, I spent like 20 minutes on basketball-reference to find this out.]
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
nene and kmart are not post players...
they are face up players that use athleticism (nene) and shoot jumpers (kmart)
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
Sin, read your first paragraph again.
If you understand and believe that, how can you want Carmelo on our team so strongly?
because i saw a carmelo that tried in the WCF and in the olympics
and if hes on a team he feels can beat the heat/lakers + thibs in his ear
i believe he will commit to defense and be one scary motherfucker
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
Iverson was really good in Denver
and has his two most efficient scoring years there. Billups is a better 2nd scorer than any player the Bulls have had since Scottie Pippen.
Sometimes I think you are working from an alternate reality.
by Basketball Smurf on Sep 27, 2010 7:12 PM CDT up reply actions
Hmm...
Speaking of Iverson, he’s as good a comparison to Rose as just about anybody. So you’d have to say that looking at Melo + AI in their one full season together would be a pretty good predictor of how well Rose + Melo would work out. Well, both guys put up career highs in TS% that year. Just something to think about
Pat Riley is the devil.
rose/boozer would be much better 2nd scorers if you ask me.
billups and melo both like to shoot a million jumpers.
rose can take it inside and boozer works from the inside as well
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
I know it's a little OT for this thread, but I think you're way too harsh on Melo :)
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
And at that point, his salary will sort of foreclose a lot of other options for getting guys
Who are these guys? WE missed Gasol,Garnett, traded JR for nothing, no BRON, no Wade, no Bosh so if we aren’t including him in the MELO trade who else is left?? WE have a PG so no CP3, and Rose will get the MAX so we’ll be over the cap. Realistically this doesn’t hold water because we cannot outright sign any player of major value for at least 5 years. So either trade him or pay him or remain in NBA purgatory for years
by Blacknight23 on Sep 27, 2010 11:36 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't understand how
signing Noah will foreclose options on getting others, aren’t we already pushing up right against the tax? We aren’t making any more big splash signings one way or the other.
The way that this deal (the Melo one) is shaping up (from all I have read) the bulls would probably end up with either Noah + Deng or Melo + whoever you can get and we would end up losing all of our picks. If we end up with Melo, Noah and some of our picks, I wouldn’t be so apposed to the trade to start with, but I don’t think the gap between Deng and Melo is that great and I definitely don’t think it is worth Noah + Picks to cover it up. So that just leads me to think that the way this team stays the most competitive in the upcoming years is through Noah + Deng and possibly getting lucky with draft picks….
I really think that team is more competitive than Melo + “placeholder” + nothing.
I agree, but I think the whole "We won't trade Noah for Melo" thing
has kinda spotlighted these negotiations a bit more.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 27, 2010 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions
It's certainly a boon to Noah's negotiating position, isn't it?
Which is probably why the Bulls seem to be pushing back in so many directions.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
Of course they’re paid obscenely high prices. But imagine working for a company that’s income and product was solely based on your essay writing on Blogabull. Imagine if you were paid $1000 dollars a week for your hard work and your company made $100,000 a week because of it. Let’s say at the time there were only 100 people in the entire country that could do your job and bring that money, but you chose to be there and give that company your sweat and tears. Let’s say you could only work for the company for 10 years (if you were lucky), and directly because of your hard work the company made $200,000 a week for the next 5 years and you didn’t get any of it. Would you consider it fair? Probably not.
I don't care about fairness. I care about whether, once the company is paying me more
they use it as an excuse to fire the receptionist and tell me I need to answer the phone in addition to writing essays.
In a way, that’s a perfectly fair thing to do. The company is paying me a shit-ton of money and they can ask me to do whatever they want for it. But it also messes with the law of comparative advantage. If I have to divide my time between answering the phone (which lots of folks can do) and writing essays (which only I can do), the result is going to be leaving profitable essays on the table.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
$100K a week is only $5.2M dollars.
Noah wants $14M….
No business would pay $14M for a guy who earns $14M in sales because of overhead costs/management costs, facilities, etc…..
Noah could be worth $14M a year to the team, but I don’t know if he’s worth much more than that right now let alone 5 years from now, and we’re playing a risk paying him what he’s worth now in the hope that we (or JR) would get more value for that downt he road….
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
If you're under contract with a company for another year and are negotiating a new contract...
… if your market value is 14 mil a year, why would you not ask for 14 million?
The main reason is early security, since Noah’s job depends on health and further improvement. A bad year or injury could greatly impact his value, perhaps in the worst case scenarios (knee surgery type stuff) by as much as 50%.
Another reason might be uncertainty in the new CBA. While players won’t get paid regardless during a strike period and already agreed upon contracts may be reduced (pending negotiations of course) his opportunity could be lessened under a new CBA (assuming no lockout). While I doubt max contracts will go down too much in dollars per year (mainly bc they are capped and for the best players in the league max contracts are a huge bargain… example Lebron, Wade, Bosh compared to Amare or Melo or even Kobe who have higher figures and either produce less or have less peak years left on avg), there’s more of a chance that they go down than up.
So if Noah’s market value is really 14 mil, the truth is a discount to 12 million sounds pretty reasonable given the uncertainty of all the factors I mentioned above. Yes, the Bulls will get a slight value to most eyes (if you view him at 14 mil a year) but the Bulls are taking more of a risk.
If Noah wants to up the ante by trying to force Chicago’s hand, he’s playing a very dangerous game. If he doesn’t perform well and is not focused his value is likely to drop even if he decides to leave Chicago. And if he gets hurt before an extension his value drops some as well probably (depending on injury). So while he may be able to damage the team, he’s certainly putting himself at a ton of (unnecessary in my mind) risk.
This is why I think 65 million is a bit too much. That’s 13 million a year and I’d feel more like Noah should be valued at around 14.5 or 15 million to make that kind of offer to him this early in the process (purely due to risk).
If he doesn’t sign until this summer, has a great year, maybe he earns as much as 14 million, but in that scenario it makes more sense to come off that 5 year 57 mil offer a bit quicker and more heavily.
But it’s early and people are discounting Chicago’s risk here a little bit I think.
I am saying he perhaps is generating
$14M of income to that company. It’s very unlikely for a company to say, good we’ll pay you $14M if you generate $14M….
If they did that it’s impossible to be in the black…..
Noah is good but he’s not a $14M/yr player….and the only chance he could be is if a major leap happens.
Still for $10/11M today, I’d be willing to “shoot high” at $12.5M/year for 5 years or $62.5M….b/c he could get better (he could also get worse if the injuries occur again.
it hink our offer is more than fair especially in these “guaranteed” money days.
I like Noah, but I think a $57M deal today for a guy to sign early and lock in is more than adequate, especially for the guaranteed ok. If he waits, which sounds likely he could get injured and drop all…..and he hasn’t been the healthiest for a younger player (he was hurt a bit in college—his right shoulder I believe, which impacted negatively his sr year to a degree, and then last year he was hurt significantly the second half of the year, he had an all around odd rookie year in the league, and came into camp the next year out of shape…..
He’s got some negatives, despite that what I love about watching him is for his love of the game and his seemingly want to get better (oh and he’s a great rebounder, solid passer, good ball handling big man, with solid D skills, and a high bball IQ who wants to take the pressure off the better star by yielding the media distraction towards him)….
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
That's a good point
No league has ‘anchor’ contracts like the NBA which can sink a team for years.
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by HotTimeInOldTown on Sep 28, 2010 9:28 AM CDT up reply actions
Bulls media + Bears-Packers=Awesome
Is there anything in sports better than having a good football team and good basketball team in the same year? I think not.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 27, 2010 12:00 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
There damn sure isn't
although the chances are probably between 0 and .0000001, it’d be soo awesome to win a championship in 3 sports this year.
by Stacey_Is_King on Sep 27, 2010 7:53 AM CDT up reply actions
yes.
also having a good hockey team.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
by Illini0509 on Sep 27, 2010 8:14 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm ok with with the Bulls overpaying Noah for a few reasons..
1. I like him. 2. He bring entertainment value to the team.. alot. 3. He’s a good player. 4. He clearly has trade value around the league which is what can separate him from an overplayed player like say Luol Deng.
Yea, but as we know, that trade value disappears once a guy gets paid
I love Noah too, but I think he needs to realize that he’s really only had one great season, and he was injured for a large portion of it. I guess I just hope that the Bulls will negotiate with him, as opposed to taking a hard line stance like in past years. Something around 5/63-65 would be a great deal for him considering the new CBA situation. Selfishly, I’d like him to get paid just so we don’t have to hear about this anymore, but I actually kinda understand where the org is coming from on this one.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 26, 2010 11:59 PM CDT up reply actions
see I understand that theory, the fat cat theory. They get lazy thinking of new cars or whatever..
But is Noah the type to get fat? I would argue no. I don’t think he’ll except losing like Kirk and Deng have. When was the last time you saw either of the highly paid Bulls get extremely emotional or upset over a loss? I doubt I ever have. They always have the preplanned lines to the media.. we just didn’t have it tonight. Same old bullshit talk.
And Noah has the same old bullshit "we gotta win for the cittay" talk.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 27, 2010 12:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Well I like that talk better.
Even if it’s fake which maybe sometimes it is I take that over any post game interview by a chap stickless Deng mumbling his we just need to do a better job crap.
Luol Deng didn't have trade value under a rookie contract?
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 12:06 AM CDT up reply actions
Just like the Bulls won't make good use of Noah's trade value? I mean, how is this any different?
Once they sign him the odds he is traded plummet. And when he’s signed the perception around the league will be that he is an overpaid hustle guy.
If the Bulls are wary of overpaying Noah this is the only time to move him. Not next season in some convoluted sign and trade and certainly not 2-3 years from now when it will amount to some trademark GarPax salary dump. Get Melo, fire Tom Thibodeau and bring back Vinny.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 27, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions
There are differences..
I think winning can help trade value. I think he’ll have trade value for years to come. I don’t think he’ll drop off like Deng and Kirk did after their contract years and they showed they couldn’t be big time NBA players or even All-Stars. I think Noah could sneak into an All Star game or two and have value around the league as someone you hate but would love to have on your team.
i think he'll drop off exactly like deng and kirk and thats why i want him traded
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
injury prone and i think thatll make his production drop off eventually
much like deng in a way
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
The difference between this time and last time
is that it’s become apparent what basket the Bulls are putting their eggs in. By not trading Noah, they are basically saying that they think they’re good to go for the next few years with a group of Rose/Boozer/Noah as their “core” guys. I think we’d all agree that that is a much better starting point than Hinrich/Deng/Wallace/Noc (?) version.
By doing that, even if we do overpay Noah a bit, it won’t hurt as much as those other deals, because they won’t be able to add on to this core group through free agency anyway. In essence, by not trading Noah, this team is now locked in and money no longer matters for a while (unless you’re Reinsdorf). So, in that regard, I can understand the “pay Noah at all costs” stance. (Did that make any sense?)
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 27, 2010 12:33 AM CDT up reply actions
yes and..
you could also say that having Derrick Rose who is an ALL-STAR helps you identify the people you need to pay. Back then it was just a hodgepodge of young talented outside shooters and and a shell of Big Ben. They paid those players without having a Star in place.
Noah is a young center that can get on the break and run with their Star so he fits and can grow along with Rose. You could argue Skiles was the ‘star’ of that Bulls team, in a sense but that could only get them so far.
So I guess maybe the X-factor you could say is Rose and you only have so many years which must not be wasted. Which almost helps the Melo argument but thats not what I’m debating.
I'm not sure. All I'm saying is Noah's trade value will never be higher.
If they sign him I’m happy because he’s a valuable player. If they trade him for Melo I’m happy because the Bulls aren’t content with just sitting back after one free agent splurge. And neither side is looking that much more advantageous than the other, IMO.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 27, 2010 12:54 AM CDT up reply actions
All I’m saying is Noah’s trade value will never be higher.
You maybe right but what if the Bulls to live up to their hype?(ranked 5th by espn) Say they are a top tier team. Say Noah has another productive season and with Boozer next to him.. you gotta think Noah will have pretty solid trade value.
and in gards to the Melo thing.. it’s easy to say trade Noah but they also say that there is no guaranties Noah would sign with Denver and if you’re the Bulls why not at least try to wear down Denver? I think the Bulls have the best offer unless Melo caves in and says yes to NJ or Phila.
I think he'd have to play much better tahn last season in order to have anything close to this type of trade value in the future
I don’t care how the team does. Noah, statistically, has to kick some ass. And I’m not even sure how realistic that is.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 27, 2010 1:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Yea, it's kind of a strange situation
I really don’t think it benefits us at all short term (to trade Noah), and I’m not certain about long term either. Although, admittedly, I’m a sucker for big men that can defend well. Carmelo is definitely the best player in any of these rumored deals, but that doesn’t make a trade a slam dunk at all. Which is what I think most people believe (Hi, Sin!). In the end, I really don’t have a huge problem if it goes either way. One things for sure, all this contract unrest is really bugging the shit out of me, and I’m not sure it should, or if it’s just that I’m now programmed that way because of what’s happened in the past with this franchise.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Sep 27, 2010 1:14 AM CDT up reply actions
I don't agree with that at all
Yes, the “core” is better, but the opposition (Miami, Orlando, Lakers, Thunder, etc) is better too, and in the final analysis (and I’ve said this all Summer) we still look like one significant piece away.
That’s how we looked then too. If we can just trade that PJ Brown expiring deal for something big, or if Tyrus can just bust out, we’ll be big time. But we didn’t.
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
That's a gross over-simplication.
Just like saying five years from now, “They wouldn’t trade Noah for freaking Melo.”
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
yeah, I don't see how that's not true
Deng not being traded for Kobe, that was not true. But they’re not even offering Noah in a deal.
yes, I know, it’s Noah+Deng. But Deng’s irrelevant if Melo’s coming in.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 9:44 AM CDT up reply actions
I hope you're being sarcastic.
Why is Deng irrelevant? He’s a valuable player and not just a throw-in like Eddy Curry. Just because Denver wants Noah more doesn’t mean Deng is a worthless piece just to match contracts.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Sep 27, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Thought experiment
Do we lose much in terms of wins/losses if Deng goes out and Brewer/Korver go from being 20mpg guys to being 35 mpg guys?
BullsTwo > Back up and running!
If only because James Johnson starts getting
the backup minutes, then yes.
20 + 20 + Deng’s 35 = 75
35 + 35 + JJ’s 5 = 75.
I don’t know that JJ’s 5 minutes would matter too much, but you do lose defense and rebounding with Korver, and although Korver’s offense is different I don’t think its better than Deng’s. With Brewer you lose offense and rebounding, plus you’d have to go small with Brewer at SF even when going small isn’t to the Bulls advantage. The Bulls ability to stay flexible with their lineup and play players based on matchups loses its effectiveness too, costing a win here or there.
by JockstrapNoah on Sep 27, 2010 12:45 PM CDT up reply actions
Not by much, no
But that says more about how good Brewer and Korver are, if you ask me. Both of those guys have been 30 mpg players on decent teams.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Even if we don't
Our bench would be very thin, and any injury would then lead to a giant loss of talent
That was my argument with Salmons....
But with Korver or JJ (gasp) as the replacement, yes we lose more than we’d gain…
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
hes irrelevant because you have a much better player at his position...?
I made this point in another thrread. I don’t get wehy people are having a hard time with this. Once you have melo deng is dead weight especially for all that money. Melo is better than deng so you’d be replacing deng wwith melo. How is he not irrelevant?
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
It's only irrelevant
if no one in the league would want Deng for his contract, I find that nearly impossible to believe.
Exactly
Just because you have a superior option doesn’t mean you cast off the inferior piece for nothing. That is, unless the inferior piece is truly worthless. Deng still has some value because he’s a good basketball player.
Doesn’t seem very moral to me. Might as well take Satan’s autograph while you’re at it. - N.C.
he wouldn't be valuable here anymore
the fundamental argument is them not even discussing Noah, which (it seems) doesn’t even have them in the running.
If it was possible to get Melo here without contract-matching, maybe you get some useable bench guys for Deng, or expiring contracts, but likely not both.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
The point isn't is Melo worth Noah
It’s is he a big enough upgrade over Deng to be worth including Noah.
You can’t just ignore that part of the equation.
And I thought it was Gordon + Deng in all the rumors for Gasol.
The Bulls were willing to part with Gordon but not both.
If the Nuggets and Grizzlies were willing, and it were legal, I think the Bulls would have traded Deng for Gasol and Noah for Anthony. As I said, in the latter, they could still use Deng to get someone else for center.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
that's true
not sure how good of a center you’d get (and it’d be one who’s overpaid), but it’d be a nicer scenario than needing to include both for Anthony
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
His first couple of years
after that he was just annoying. The passion spilling over into stupidity.
by JockstrapNoah on Sep 27, 2010 11:09 AM CDT up reply actions
Jimmy Johns has taken that mantle
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions
If they will overpay or not, it's ok with me
I don’t want another Ben Gordon episode
That said, I think the Bulls made a very good offer to Noah. No reason for him to be offended
by JustAnotherFan on Sep 27, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
Can anyone else foresee the possibility of...
…us trading away Deng for space next off-season (see: Kirk Hinrich) and then signing Melo to a contract, thereby letting New York Knicks fans gently sob forever?
Just a thought. It seems to me after Rudy Gay’s contract and this off-season, Deng’s really not on a bad deal, and with each year that goes by, he has more and more trade-value.
If I was an edge-of-the-lottery team, I’m sure I’d take a Deng+1st round pick for future first round pick/cap-relief kinda thing.
My point is, we’re all here going “Melo now, Melo now, Melo NOOOW”.
Well, right now, it looks like the following:
1. Noah isn’t going anywhere via trade.
2. Noah isn’t signing his contract just yet.
3. Melo isn’t going anywhere just yet.
4. Melo isn’t signing any new contracts just yet.
so… trade Deng, get the capspace, sign Melo, resign Noah.
That’s a nice little world.
Doubt it’ll happen.
But to me, it beats bickering and arguing over the same things we’ve been bickering and arguing over for 2-3 weeks: trade for Rudy? trade for Melo? pay Noah? trade Noah for Melo?
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
Noah even if unsigned still has a cap hold
the Bulls aren’t going to be FA players even if Deng was off the books.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Man..wat a conundrum
I bought courtside laker/nuggets tickets for my girl’s bday, and Melo’s prob gonna get traded b4 the game
man, fuck you! by palmpre on Sep 2, 2010 2:30 PM EDT
at least you can watch billups throw up bricks like youve only seen in middleschool
This may go down as the most retarded decade in NBA history.
Chicago Bulls general manager Gar Forman said Monday that he’s hopeful an extension for center Joakim Noah can be worked out, but negotiations wouldn’t necessarily affect any trade talks.
he's become quite good at saying nothing
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
that was just a sample, check those out
Gar on Carmelo rumors: “If there’s an opportunity to improve our team we’re going to explore it.”
Noah on contract talks: “Those are things that should be kept internal with the team. Hopefully (the contract extension) will happen.”
Gar on possible Noah extension: “We’re hopeful we get something done. If not, it’s not going to change where we’re at.”
It’s a process, I guess
by JustAnotherFan on Sep 27, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions
but the real master in saying nothing was Delonte West
CavsWITNESS
RT @gwashburn14: Delonte West on LeBron’s mom: “I come from an era where you don’t say nothing bad about someone’s parent. So not at all.”
ok… so you didn’t SAY anything but … did you DO anything?
by JustAnotherFan on Sep 27, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm surprised someone asked
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Sep 27, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions
you're not alone
HoopsHype.com
Apparently somebody asked Delonte West about the LeBron rumors. Whoa.
by JustAnotherFan on Sep 27, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions
in other words: id hit it again
man, fuck you! by palmpre on Sep 2, 2010 2:30 PM EDT
by Belize on Sep 27, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
When are the Celtics going to be in Cleveland.
If Mrs. James goes to Florida on vacation on those dates, we’ll know.
He was asked if LeBron's mom was promiscuous with bipolar point guards
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
by Prevenge on Sep 27, 2010 4:14 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
He comes from an era that considers Drake a real rapper.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Sep 27, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions
Just so you guys know, apparently the bulls told Noah to get some vacation in: he didn't go to France because he's angry
That said, this is from the mouthpiece of the org. Sam Smith: http://www.nba.com/bulls/news/smith_100927.html
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
According to this quote that's what he said
There was a report Noah went to France to visit his father and also supposedly to send a message to the Bulls about unhappiness over negotiations by not working out. It was nonsense as Noah has been at the Berto center working out regularly almost all summer and probably as much or more than any player and the Bulls have been encouraging him to back off some.
I mean, not exactly: they told him to back off a little, so he went to France for a bit to visit his family, but that seems very reasonable to me.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
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