Navigation: Jump to content areas:


Pro Quality. Fan Perspective.
Login-facebook
Around SBN: Trent Richardson Interviews Fellow Brown Brandon Weeden

"Bulls add to their depth, sign former Spur Keith Bogans to a two-year deal, 2nd year partial guarantee. Story up soon on NBA.com."

almost 2 years ago Tiny Big D 301 comments 0 recs  | 

Story-email Email Printer Print

Comments

Display:

:\

Rudy!?

eat. sleep. hoop. repeat. become legendary.

by Sir Buckets on Aug 6, 2010 5:25 PM CDT reply actions  

he said add shooters

he never said anything about good ones D:

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

pargo is a shooter

a bad shooter, but a shooter nonetheless.

Bogans > Pargo. I don’t hate it.

by 72-10 on Aug 8, 2010 7:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I just looked up the two

I take that back… Bogans = Pargo. They both shoot about the same from 3. They both shoot about the same from 2. The one good thing is Bogans is not as much of a chucker, so hopefully he’ll take less bad shots. He’s also a better defender. But Otherwise they seem to have similar shooting percentages.

by 72-10 on Aug 8, 2010 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Sam with some specifics:
SamSmithHoops
  
The Bulls reached agreement with Keith Bogans on a two year deal valued at about $2.5 million, NBA sources confirmed Saturday.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 5:30 PM CDT reply actions  

so now

we got what..like 1.3 left?

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Aug 6, 2010 6:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

That is troubling.

It’s hard for me to imagine how we get from where we are the the ECF and the NBA finals.

by hlac on Aug 6, 2010 7:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

i think thibs got him just for D

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Aug 6, 2010 6:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

ewww...

that’s my feelings.

what is he, like a defensive CJ watson? At least he’s a legit NBA player.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Aug 6, 2010 5:33 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Alright, I'm okay with it now.

Badass tat, bro.

"Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team." -Scottie Pippen

by owenjs on Aug 6, 2010 6:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

i thought that said schlitz matt liquor for some reason

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 9:46 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Yeah, they could.

Maybe this means they’ll just put Bogans on IL if they get Rudy.

by cubbybear on Aug 7, 2010 10:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

uuuuuggggghhhhhhh.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Aug 6, 2010 5:47 PM CDT reply actions  

What the hell?

Why let the heat go grab eddie house and the knicks get Mason Jr.?! We had the cap space damnit!! WTF!!!

by The90sBullsRevival on Aug 6, 2010 5:47 PM CDT reply actions  

We'll lets just hope they see it that way

and were just looking for some leverage on Portland.

Either that or that Portland keeps Rudy thru the trade deadline…when our on court production will probably mandate the Bulls revisit the trade. Sigh

by reprisal on Aug 6, 2010 5:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

Got to know what you're getting —

Has the team still acquired everyone they wanted?

by jpx7 on Aug 6, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 6, 2010 5:48 PM CDT reply actions  

yes

and one they didn’t want..

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Aug 6, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Could this be the prelude to

Trading JJ for Rudy? we would of had one spot left and you know Thibs loves an extra defender for some extra fouls if necessary, or just a big body to throw in there if need be….I hope Rudy comes next or otherwise this does not make too much sense given his Bulls need shooting statement…

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 5:50 PM CDT reply actions  

that was clearly a two-parter

He falls under the “extra defender for some extra fouls if necessary” part…thought that was kinda obvious.

"..what you mean? I'm a legend like Kareem!"

by CommittedToExcellence on Aug 7, 2010 8:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because he can play defense

I atleast consider this an upgrade from Pargo offensively and Definately Defensively…Anyone will be an upgrade offensively from Pargo …..

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

PER isn't everything

Yes, he only has a career 10.1 PER, but because he plays good D without racking up steals/blocks, PER undersells his contributions by a decent margin. Bruce Bowen’s career PER was 8.2, and while Bogans isn’t as good a defender as Bowen was, he doesn’t have to be to still be a useful backup.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 6, 2010 5:56 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

What are you basing that on?

Most stuff I’ve read says he’s good and considering that he played major minutes for a top 10 defensive team last year, I find it easy to accept that.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 6, 2010 6:46 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The Bowen comparison is bad. Bogans is more about physicality, whereas with Bruce it was all about positioning and tactics. Still a good defensive player, but his methods only work well against certain types of players.

Tony apologist since 2010.

by Tim C. on Aug 6, 2010 7:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're a Spurs fan?

What did Spurs fans think of him? How’s his shot?

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

spurs fan think anyone is better than rj i would think

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 7:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

He’s a streaky shooter. Loved him when he was on, didn’t understand why he got playing time when it wasn’t falling. Nobody’s losing any sleep over his departure, but that’s mainly because we like our draft pick.

Tony apologist since 2010.

by Tim C. on Aug 6, 2010 7:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ah yes, James Anderson

Funny how that worked out

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 8:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

when have spurs fans ever NOT liked their draft picks

oh how i loathe good management

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 9:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls have been pretty good at drafting under Paxton

It was everything else they were bad at

Actually, they made some nice trades too.

by tuluse on Aug 6, 2010 10:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

FWIW, Keith is a tough, tough defender… not sure you guys needed him after signing Brewer, though.

Tony apologist since 2010.

by Tim C. on Aug 6, 2010 5:54 PM CDT reply actions  

Nope Signing Pargo =

Worst Franchise move ever….and atleast there is no Richard this year

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 5:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm referring to I believe it was Golden State

Im not positive who signed him, and personally do not feel like looking for it, but I do know that it was not the Bulls this year and i couldnt be more sad ….but what kind of fan Bull fan would I be if I did not follow Pargo, and his illustrious Bull career

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 8:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'm counting on it too

I don’t think Bogans is the type that can complain about being the 13th guy. And if he does, screw him. Trade.
Of course there is possibility number 2. Which would be some dumb shit. Even T-Mac or A.I. would be better than that

by JustAnotherFan on Aug 6, 2010 8:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rudy is still not out of the question

Flip JJ for Rudy and the roster is still filled out.

Otherwise, this is about as “meh” as “meh” gets.

by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 6, 2010 5:55 PM CDT reply actions  

I truely believe

This move opens the door for Rudy …This definately sends the signal that he just wanted that last guard for the roster…..a big defender so could very well help, (gulp)……but with Thibs speaking of needing shooting and the importance of shooting I do believe this leaves more to come and please please say hello to Rudy…….and THANK GOD GOODBYE James Johnson

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 5:58 PM CDT reply actions  

we just signed...

this?

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Aug 6, 2010 5:59 PM CDT reply actions  

KC is excited about getting to write his 500th column

about the Bulls signing a gritty, team player that only cares about winning.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 6:00 PM CDT reply actions  

a bulls off season would not be complete without a dumb move

this right here, is this year’s version.
2006-B Wallace
2007-Aaron Gray
2008-Luol Deng
2009-Pargo
2010-Bogans

chicago jazz, now playin

by Juan dela Cruz on Aug 6, 2010 6:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Because it's Aaron Gray.

It would have been a better move if they drafted a solid ball boy.

"Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team." -Scottie Pippen

by owenjs on Aug 6, 2010 6:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

process time limit, IMO

i think its like one of those slot machines in Vegas where after a certain time, its just picks whatever ..in this case we got this

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Aug 6, 2010 6:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

Please do not affect us getting Rudy...

If it does this is the worst off season move BY FAR. Bulls have to go and mess something up. Rudy for JJ and a 1st round was just too good to be true for the Bulls to hop on.

by i_like_turtles on Aug 6, 2010 6:12 PM CDT reply actions  

yeahhhhhh right.

Why bother with getting Rudy when you can get a guy who might be worse than Pargo?

Ugh, I need to watch some Derrick Rose highlights.

DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY

by Ozzie Montana on Aug 6, 2010 6:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes!

This is all I needed to read.

Bogans is fine with me as long as he’s taking the place of Pargo

by Option27 on Aug 6, 2010 6:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd have rather have Mason, Jr

but Popovich started Bogans ahead of Mason last year, didn’t he? Popovich knows what he’s doing, so I guess I don’t hate the move as much as some here.

I’m still holding out hope we can nab Rudy, though.

by kozzer on Aug 6, 2010 6:14 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

hes worse.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Aug 6, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Much less stupid sounds much better

It just rolls off the tongue.

"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.

by propheteer on Aug 6, 2010 8:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just txt my boy who's a spurs fan and asked him bout Bogans

his responses:

Bogans a shooter, play sa d
Bogans will be keepin the seats nice and toasty

so i asked simply: is he good:

his response:

NO

So, he sucks..nobody can tell me diff cuz this guy is like sports 2 mixed with scooter on the NBA stats tip

so F u Gar!

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Aug 6, 2010 6:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Yeah I know right! Relax....and he's a solid defender.

Can’t say the same about Pargo or T-Mac…..plus from what I hear we’re still going after Rudy. So that means we would’ve needed to fill out the roster anyway once we trade JJ.

by Pepp23 on Aug 6, 2010 6:33 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I don't know about you guys...

But once that schedule comes out on Tuesday, I’m circling that Bulls vs. Warriors game. Can’t get much more exciting than Pargo vs. Bogans.

by BO$CO on Aug 6, 2010 6:42 PM CDT reply actions  

tmac can still happen right?

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 6:42 PM CDT reply actions  

at bogans?

yeah i know man

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 6, 2010 7:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly

if this doesn’t stop us from getting Rudy I’m fine with it, even though I don’t seem to be as high on him as some of us are.

JJ for Rudy straight up is a steal, JJ and a first for Rudy is not so much of one.

Not to say that we will find someone as good as Rudy in the 20-30 range of the first round, just that I hate not having a first rounder. It takes a lot of the suspense out of the draft for me.

"I want to be that guy. I want to be the reason the Bulls are back."- Derrick Rose.
"I'm never leaving Chicago."- Derrick Rose

by Cosmis on Aug 6, 2010 6:48 PM CDT reply actions  

Dang

That name just makes me wanna slap someone in the face.

"Get up or GET OUT THE WAY!"
~Stacy King

by wrigleyrocker12 on Aug 6, 2010 6:49 PM CDT reply actions  

Keith Bogans?

More like Keith BOGUS.

Hilarious, I know.

"Sometimes a player's greatest challenge is coming to grips with his role on the team." -Scottie Pippen

by owenjs on Aug 6, 2010 6:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

The whole franchise died?

Wow.

"In order to have a winner, the team must have a feeling of unity; every player must put the team first- ahead of personal glory" - motivational sign at Halas Hall.

by propheteer on Aug 6, 2010 8:48 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

To all of you saying he's Pargo II, or worse, you're all wrong.

Pargo who’s an offensive-minded player who sucks on offense. Bogans is a defensive player who’s not very good on offense, but is a solid three point shooter. Bogans is much better than Pargo.

by dakoose on Aug 6, 2010 7:43 PM CDT reply actions  

Bogans is immediately better than Pargo

simply because he won’t jack shots and kidnap the offense for stretches of the game. I don’t know if that makes him “better” though. Just makes him safer.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 7:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

i hope signing Bogans doesn't preclude the Bulls from getting Rudy

and his ultimate value is as a JJ replacement.

Bogans is one of those players who doesn’t stand out for being bad, but when you really watch the game, you notice he hasn’t done anything good either. He is like a young version of Adrian Griffin.

I can’t say I followed Bogans career, but when watching him play, I don’t see anything I like. I see him as a guy opposing teams should go after on defense because he is way overrated on that end and on offense you leave him open until he hits a shot. He is more team defender than individual defender, he really doesn’t do jack against the top shooting guards. Every time Bogans is in the game, I feel like we will be wondering why Brewer is sitting.

by Basketball Smurf on Aug 6, 2010 7:51 PM CDT reply actions  

the best thing i can find about Bogans

is that his low fg% (.403 last year) is mostly due to the fact that almost 2 out of every 3 shots he takes is a 3pter. His TS% (.542) was decent last year as was his efg% (.520). He looks like he is just here to catch kick outs from Rose. Maybe this was the shooter Thibs was referring too…

by Basketball Smurf on Aug 6, 2010 7:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Keith Bogans

I can definately see him catching kick-outs from Rose, but my main wish is that he kicks it right to someone else, and preferrably not on the other team….

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 8:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

During Thibs interview today he said "we have 3 roster spots available"...

So the signing of Bogans does not eliminate the possiblity for going after Rudy. They still have about 2 million dollars (rough estimate) in CAP space. They could still trade a first round pick + JJ for Rudy/Pendergraph. And Also have enough CAP space to sign John Lucas III…..

I actually like the Signing of bogans. He is a veteran player who can shoot a 3. He is only going to play spot minutes anyways and he started for a playoff team last year.

by K_yle33 on Aug 6, 2010 8:15 PM CDT reply actions  

You guys are the biggest bunch of whining bitc&Es i have ever seen

Do you not understand that you need a team to win games. When we took tyrus the taking of Victor and the addition of Pj brown is what lead Tyrus from being so useless on the bulls team. You have to get minutes to play the game and learn the game in the process. If any other team had taken Ben Gordon he would never have been the player that ended up getting a way overpriced contract. why do you want a lockjam at every position.? This will not lead to anything but a waste of talent. We have had so many players that we could have drafted or did draft that ended up being solid players. Artest, brad miller, elton brand, tyson(who would have been better than wallace/ pjbrown).

James johnson can play and what he needs is playing time. where do you play rudy? we have rose, brewer, watson, korver,. how many more gaurds do you want to limit each player except rose to ten minutes a game. Rudy is looking for playing time and more money. let the knicks get him.

JJ is going to shine if given the chance trust me

Bulls NBA Contenders By 2010

by glycen on Aug 6, 2010 8:19 PM CDT reply actions  

Anyone who has faith in JJ loses any respect in my book

And there wouldn’t be a log jam.

He would start with Brewer backing him up

by Option27 on Aug 6, 2010 9:17 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions   1 recs

Here is more from DA
Assuming Bogans got $1.2-1.5 in first year, Bulls still have more than $2 million in cap room. Rudy only at $1.25 next season.
29 minutes ago via web .Since some have asked…signing Bogans does not preclude Bulls from continuing to pursue Rudy Fernandez…still under cap & only 12 players.

by K_yle33 on Aug 6, 2010 8:22 PM CDT reply actions  

IF GIVEN THE CHANCE?

Would you rather give minutes to Bogans or Pendergraph given if we get rudy and pendergraph

by chicagobullies on Aug 6, 2010 8:24 PM CDT reply actions  

Well, can't say we blindly support any of the orgs moves..

Nobody has really talked themselves into actually liking this one after about 100 comments posted. Mostly just “blah” or “ewww” responses, with “I can live with it” being the most positive.

Hopefully, he’s been signed to take JJ’s place as extreme emergency SF (when he gets sent out in a Rudy deal). Also veteran “good locker room guy” that hopefully won’t complain when he hasn’t played in a month.

“We’re putting a premium on shooting right now” CANNOT= Keith Bogans…there has to be more. As someone pointed out early in this thread, also leverage on Portland, since the Bulls seem to be about the last team showing interest.

by MMP on Aug 6, 2010 8:31 PM CDT reply actions  

Thibs said on the radio today

that they had 3 slots to fill so maybe Rudy is still in the mix?

by Dils on Aug 6, 2010 8:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Why?

Because one is a lot better than the other at basketball (hint, its not Bogans)

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

money

West would cost more and neither is worth losing your flexibility for. If we whiff on Rudy we’ll get someone at the deadline… hopefully someone better than west.

by 72-10 on Aug 8, 2010 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I hope

this move is a nudge to Portland to make the market for Fernandez look like its closing

You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.

by DocPepper on Aug 6, 2010 9:03 PM CDT reply actions  

Via KC ...

The Bulls had engaged in trade talks with the Trail Blazers for Rudy Fernandez, but Bogans’ signing will likely end those"

Shoot me

by Option27 on Aug 6, 2010 9:10 PM CDT via mobile reply actions   1 recs

Well, this means it's done

If KC is reporting that, it basically means that he got it directly from the front office. I guess there’s some hope that they are usin him in order to get Portland to drop their price, but that’s probably a huge longshot.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 9:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

So disappointing

We’re gonna need Brewer to be damn good. They had enough money and “flexibility”, we shouldn’t have to be so reliant on one player like that.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

:-(

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 6, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Sad

when the last player on the team to sign is Bogans and the team had 3 mil. left to spend……….this is the only player that the bulls have sign in freeagency that i have a problem with……..bad move bulls

by Jermal on Aug 6, 2010 9:41 PM CDT reply actions  

Ok, so now KC comes out and refutes his own report:
KCJHoop
  
Bulls roster up to 12—-with seven (!) new players—-after Bogans signing. Bulls still in mix for Rudy Fernandez if Trail Blazers trade him

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 9:50 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

still dont

understand why some people are riding tmacs jock, the dude obviously did nothing to show he deserves to be in a bulls uniform or for that matter the clippers or anyone elses uniform in the nba (as of now), i mean if he did he would be signed…im not saying this signing is spectacular but id rather have a player capable of defending and helping and being a team player than a dude who is obviously way past his prime still thinking he is just getting into his best years and should be treated like a superstar…plus this way we still have a chance to get rudy and im optimistic that we will…tmac came, showed what hes about and was shown the door

by Gogiman on Aug 6, 2010 10:04 PM CDT reply actions  

A few hours later, not that big a deal

We signed a veteran player who plays solid D and can somewhat shoot the 3. He did not cost much and he will not eat up many minutes. I do not think this was ever related to whether or not we can get Rudy. Furthermore, Thibs said this team is going to add shooters, so I would just be patient.

This offseason has been very productive. At this point I am ready to just trust Forman with the roster and hope for the best.

by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 6, 2010 10:04 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't know why you people are complaining!

We signed this guy to be the 12th man, not to be a starter to play heavy minutes!
Are you expecting a 12th man to have NBA starter quality (in fact, he did start for Spurs last year)? It is not going to happen even in a championship winning team. Get real people, we should be glad for what we got as the 12th man.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 10:12 PM CDT reply actions  

On a different team, that might be true

but given what we currently have at the two and three, this could be a very important roster spot. All it takes is one injury, or one player performing below expectations, and you’re gonna wish we signed someone better than Keith Bogans.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 10:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

I totally agree

i was about to say the same thing about the injury part, it’s good to have depth and if you don’t then you are screwed………….prime example of a team that don’t have depth is the heat and if one of the so called big 3 get hurt they are screwed big time

by Jermal on Aug 6, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

what if Rose get hurt, can Watson fill his shoe?

My point is you can’t expect no drop off if your starter get hurt. His ability for the role he will be in, and the price we got him, I won’t complain.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

We're in a precarious position because of the guys we currently have at those spots

Obviously Rose’s backup isn’t as important, because if he goes down (for a long time) we’re screwed anyway. The thing is, we have some big question marks at the two and three right now. We can’t be sure that Brewer will play well, and there’s a very good chance Luol won’t play a full season. More than most teams, we need depth on the wings. That’s why this signing is so important.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 11:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls do not have BIG question marks at the two and three...

They have guys who have performed better than average over the course of their careers slotted to be starters….

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 11:31 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The questions are mostly unrelated to performance

In Deng’s case, it’s “will he stay healthy?”. That’s a pretty big question mark imo.

In Brewer’s case, it’s “Will his overall play be good enough that we can keep him on the floor even though we desperately need shooting?” Not as big of a concern as Lu, but I still think when you combine the two, it’s pretty apparent that we can use a pretty good backup.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Brewer's the one I'm concerned about

I’m really not sold on him at all.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 7, 2010 12:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

Brewer is what he is and what he is, is a defender and slasher with athletic ability. He can’t shoot 3’s and is a competent mid-range shooter. He can get us 10 ppg, while locking down the other teams best perimeter player and finish like a stud on the break with Rose.

Rose 2010!!!!!

by illwill on Aug 7, 2010 12:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

So, you have never seen him play?

His offensive game is nothing like Pargo’s…

Brewer was not brought here to be a scoring player; the Bulls have three scorers in the starting lineup, the remaining two guys will get buckets by feeding off the those three players…Defensively, the Bulls will start three good defenders, while hoping the strength of those three will mask some of the deficiencies of the others…The starting lineup will be fine…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 7, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

He didn't say his game was like Pargo

he described his fit as being as poor as Pargo – big difference.

The Bulls have 3 scorers in their starting line up, but no shooters. We saw something similar last year with Salmons/Deng/Rose and they struggled as a group. Yes, this team has Boozer, but the problems on the perimeter may remain. Notice that Salmons played much better off the bench and than with Milwaukee. Its because he didn’t fit well with both Rose and Deng. People have the same worries about Brewer since he scores even less, shoots a lot worse from distance and can’t create offense for himself.

by Basketball Smurf on Aug 7, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

I understand your point,

but unless we sign a starter quality player, it is not going to solve the “problem” you mentioned. The reality is no significant upgrade over Bogans is available at this time & at this price.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 11:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

ok, so you are not confortable on what we have in brewer, deng, krover at the 2 & 3,

but just like I said, you can’t expect the 12th man is as good as your starter. Just like I wish everyone on the roster is as good as Rose, but it ain’t going to happen.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 10:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's ridiculous

No one said he had to be as good as Rose. He should be better than Bogans though.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 10:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I mentioned Rose just to let know that is not going to happen.

You said we should sign someone better than bogans, but who is available that is willing to accept this price and the bench role?

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 10:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Obviously the first guy I'll say is Rudy

He would be perfect for this type of role. As for other options, I know there’s not a ton of great players on the market, but as far as guys that fill this spot, Bogans was pretty much at the bottom of my list. I preferred Mason, House, Rasual Butler, T Mac, even giving a D-leaguer like Almond a chance over Bogans.

That list doesn’t even include possible trades. Since I’m not in the front office, I’m not entirely sure who’s available, but I’m sure there was something out there better than this. What about trading for someone like Anthony Parker? Or giving Josh Howard a shot? Or signing that guy from Europe, Romain Sato? Keith Bogans just seems very uninspired.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 11:16 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I believe they are still trying on Rudy, but what if Portland ask too much?

I won’t take T Mac, not because he is not healthy, just because he won’t accept a bench role.
As for others that you mentioned, none of them is significantly better than Bogans. If you think this player will play heavy minutes if Deng get hurt, are you confortable to have one of the guys you mentioned to fill the role? I am not.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 11:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

he is not the 12th man

he has averaged 23 minutes a game throughout his career. He started games for every team he has played for except his 29 game stint in Milwaukee. Thibs knows him from coaching him in Houston. Everything I see points to him being the back up 2 guard. And as Juicebox points out, we are a Deng injury away from this guy getting 30 minutes a game.

by Basketball Smurf on Aug 6, 2010 10:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

he is 12th man on the roster

and i don’t think he will start if Deng get injury, even he does, he won’t play heavy minutes with others available. Like you said, he has experience, with such low price, this is definitely a bargain for a bench player.
We all wish have a better roster, but with salary cap & other restriction, I believe they have done a pretty good job this off season.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 10:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's really more like we're a deng injury away from bogans playing 15 mpg.

Considering the spurs got away with playing him 19 mpg the entire year and still won 50 games.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 6, 2010 10:49 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

* I think we'll be okay.

Is how that sentence should have ended.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 6, 2010 10:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree

We shouldn’t worry about this move. It is not the best move, but not as bad as some people think neither.

by coolstar on Aug 6, 2010 11:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

VDN is no longer the coach

Hopefully we won’t have to worry about the way Thibs plays him like we had to with Pargo.

by 72-10 on Aug 8, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

We are still in talks for Rudy.

Relieved

by ItalianBari8 on Aug 6, 2010 10:22 PM CDT reply actions  

Bogans is just insurance

we had to grab someone b/c all our eggs were in the Rudy basket

So far I have not found the science

by cp881289 on Aug 6, 2010 10:58 PM CDT reply actions  

Nice writeup

and it certainly brightens things up a little, but I still feel we could have done better. If he was even somewhat good, why would the Spurs let him walk when they could have had him at the vet min? I know they have a somewhat crowded situation back there after drafting Anderson, but for that price, you’d think they’d keep him around if he was any good.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 6, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thanks for weighing in as the voice of reason...

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 6, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

LMAO
Unfortunately, last year he did the same thing re: Hinrich over Gordon and then Hinrich went out and fed Bulls fans a shit sandwich all year.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 12:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

my favorite line

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 7, 2010 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

And having Gordon would have been better last year?

I don’t really see any convincing evidence of that.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You need to be convinced that Gordon would have been a better option than Kirk last year?

I don’t think there’s any doubt about it. Obviously BG got hurt which is basically what killed his season, but who’s to say he gets injured if he stays with the Bulls?

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 12:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gordon/Rose didn't work as well as Hinrich/Rose

in 08/09 why would it have been better last season?

A starting backcourt of two Ben Gordons isn’t a good idea, and that’s what Gordon/Rose was as well as Gordon with any of Detroit’s guards.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 12:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Because Rose got better?

And there’s simply no way that Gordon’s defense could have been as rotten as Hinrich’s offense was this year. He was the main reason the Bulls were 27th in Offensive Efficiency.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Gordon/Rose in 08-09 didn't work as well as Hinrich/Rose

because Rose wasn’t nearly as good in 08-09 as he was last year, especially after the All Star break

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

And after the All-Star break Kirk

shot 40% form 3 and 45% from the field with a nearly 4 to 1 assist to turnover ratio.

Rose got better defensively, but he was still no better than a healthy Ben Gordon at best on that end of the floor. That’s the problem.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Kirk's percentages are deceiving because of the sheer number of times he turned down open looks

to pass off to someone with a worse shot. He absolutely murdered the offense last year. He was the #1 reason the Bulls were one of the absolute worst offenses in the league.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls were only a strong defense

during the first half of the season before the bigs started getting injured or traded in the case of Tyrus. The stretch that got them into the playoffs after the trade deadline was played with average at best defense and average offense..

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

So the Bulls bigs were the reason for the Bulls good defense, but somehow this helps the argument

that Kirk was worthwhile over BG, despite his terrible terrible offense? This is not a winning argument.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

A starting backcourt of two Ben Gordons isn’t a good idea, and that’s what Gordon/Rose was as well as Gordon with any of Detroit’s guards.

How are their games similar at all? Rose is a slashing point guard, while Gordon is basically just a great jump shooter/scorer. The reason Detroit has issues with Ben is because they play Stuckey at the point, and he isn’t one. Derrick is. Totally different situation.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 12:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think he's referring to the fact that they are both smaller scoring guards with poor defensive reputations.

Ben’s defense is fine. Derrick’s improved rather significantly this year. They would have worked better than Rose Hinrich and no one can tell me differently. Hinrich was an absolute offensive sinkhole this year and he got huge minutes. He killed the Bulls offense in ways that even advanced stats don’t pick up and advanced stats had him as one of the worst offensive 2guards in the league.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ben is only fine defensively when he can take the less

difficult defensive assignment. If he actually has to guard the other team’s best guard it’s a significant problem.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Look, the Bulls problems last year were on offense. They had an above average defense

and an apocalypse on offense. Kirk helped on defense, but he hurt a lot more on the other end than he helped on defense. The Bulls needed Gordon’s efficient scoring much more than they needed Kirk’s mythical defensive glue.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

If the losses on defense are greater than the offense

added then it does matter that the Bulls needed more help on offense. All of the evidence points to that being true.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:02 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well then you just disagree with how much Ben helps on offense relative to Kirk's helping on D.

I think Kirk’s defensive impact is pretty largely overstated. The biggest reason the Bulls were better defensively this year is that Deng played a full season. Kirk swapping in for Ben helped some, but it was really Lu returning and Taj’s emergence that made the Bulls an above average D over the previous year. Kirk’s negative offensive impact was palpable. He killed the offense over and over with overdribbling and turning down wide open looks to force a pass to a teammate in a worse spot. They needed Gordon’s efficient, volume scoring much more than they needed Kirk’s grabby clutchy overrated defense.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Gordon wasn't that efficient last season

and if you can pretend he doesn’t get hurt in Chicago I can overlook Kirk’s early season shooting struggles.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Wrong. You can't. Because we're talking about YaoPau projecting them

and considering Gordon had never, ever been hurt before last year that was pretty damned unlikely. Kurt being lousy on offense though, we’d seen that show before.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

We've also Ben Gordon

be lousy on offense to start a season.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Never at the level Kirk was and Kirk obviously didn't rebound THAT much

from his early woes, because he finished with a freaking 50.1 TS% and an 11.6 PER.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ben Gordon only

has value as a scorer so he better have never struggled as much as Hinrich. Hinrich doesn’t have to have the same offensive numbers to be more valuable than Gordon, especially in a specific context.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:28 AM CDT up reply actions  

You really, really overrate Hinrich's defense

and really that’s the only value Hinrich brings to the table. He’s just as one dimensional as Gordon. Perimeter scoring on a team with a crap offense is a lot more important than perimeter defense for a team filled with good defenders at the 3 through 5 spots.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perimeter defense in general is pretty overrated, these days.

No one can really, truly stop anyone with the rules as they are. Least of all Kirk Hinrich with his slow ass feet. He got torched plenty of nights and he might have had one game all year where he really torched another team on offense.

Interior defense is what counts and you even alluded to it above that the reason the Bulls D was good to start the year (and why they were able to tread water while Kirk totally shat his pants) was because they had big men who could defend. Kirk Hinrich stinks and he stunk particularly bad last year.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:37 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

That's a great point

To have a great defense these days, you need good, shotblocking big men and solid team principles. Also, your guys have to want to play D. Having a good defensive guard is pretty overrated because the league pretty much doesn’t let you be good.

It’s one of the reasons I think Derrick is better than people think, he’s a pretty smart defender in terms of knowing how to stay out of foul trouble and not make dumb defensive plays. Now if he could only figure out that pick n roll…

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

Derrick's desire to avoid fouls

is one of the reasons he is a bad defender. He plays passively.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

And you're not getting

the relationship between interior and perimeter defense correct.

Poor interior defense can make the best perimeter defender in the NBA irrelevant, but nothing outside of tremendous outside shooting by post players makes a great interior defender irrelevant because of their proximity to the basket. That;s why it matters more.

Perimeter defense still matters. Great interior defenders can’t come close to completely covering up for poor perimeter defense. Hinrich did his job defensively. There’s plenty of evidence that bad perimeter defenders can have a disastrous effect on a defense by themselves if they aren’t surrounded by good defenders at the other two perimeter positions..

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:54 AM CDT up reply actions  

I fully understand it. My point is that the Bulls defense was not

their problem, their offense was. The reason for the Bulls defensive success had much less to do with Kirk Hinrich than their offensive failure had to do with him. He was the reason they sucked on offense whereas he was probably their 4th most important defender behind Luol, Joakim, and Taj.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

And my larger point is that Ben's defensive badness

gets overblown and Kirk’s positive effects on defense are overstated. Combine that with the no doubt about it fact that Ben was and is far superior on offense and it’s really a no brainer, to me, who would have been the better fit.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've always agreed

that Kirk was overrated on defense and Ben was underrated on defense. My record on that is clear.

I made the argument you just made in a fan post before Derrick’s rookie year. Actually seeing the way things actually played out changed my mind both by what I saw watching the games and the statistical evidence.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think you were crazy for making that argument

based on the player pairs data, but I still disagree with your conclusion. The Bulls had three average to bad offensive players in their starting lineup and one volume scorer who was a low efficiency guy (Derrick). They really, really could have used another 20 pp36 scorer who had a track record of 55%+ TS%. They also really, really needed more consistent three point shooting and Kirk, despite his percentages, couldn’t provide it because he was afraid to take open shots so his volume was way too low.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

F.Sound

I’ve been reccing you all through this thread. You’ve hit the nail on the head about Kirk and the overvaluing of his defense. We’ve literally have spent half this summer trying to make up for BG’s offensive production and we still have people trying to make a point that Kirk was more valuable. Yet it took us no time to find guys who will give us Kirk’s defensive production.

by Dils on Aug 7, 2010 7:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

so all players who have never been hurt

Are unlikely to ever be hurt? Physical deterioration of tissue doesn’t care what team you’re on.

by SidM on Aug 7, 2010 2:02 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I don't think it's a stretch to say that Ben might not have gotten hurt if he played here

instead of Detroit. I think his injury occurred on a particular play, if that play doesn’t happen, it obviously significantly decreases the chance that he gets hurt.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

They're actually very similar.

High usage rates with moderate efficiency because of low free throw rates. Both create most of their offense off of the dribble. Similar size with similar defensive issues. Neither makes plays on defense, but they can play decent defense on their man at times.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree that there are similarities

but really all it comes down to is that they score without getting to the free throw line very much. You keep saying they are similar in size, but if Ben was a point guard, he would be a pretty good size. Derrick is not undersized for his position, Ben is. Also, you’re overlooking passing, and assist to turnover ratio. Derrick is a far better passer than Ben. Also, you guard them both in totally different ways. They may both “create off the dribble”, but one of them uses that dribbling to get to the rim and terrify defenses, while the other uses it to shoot most of the the time.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

They are still players that derive

almost all of their value from scoring. That makes them similar. They can kill the other team on the good scoring nights, and kill their own team on bad scoring nights. And there defense is very capable of negating their offensive value.

Look at their statistical rates. These guys aren’t similar?

They have the same basic offensive and defensive profile. Rose obviously assists more, but that difference doesn’t

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:43 AM CDT up reply actions  

We can go back and forth on this all night

but I still feel like Derrick offers more to the game than just scoring, statistically and otherwise. I do agree that scoring is the main value in all three players, but Derrick is very good in other areas as well. As far as defense, I think point guard is the most difficult position to play defensively, and, as a result, the hardest one to evaluate. It’s basically impossible to stay in front of your guy.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Derrick doesn't stay in front of his guy,but he also

doesn’t make any plays on the ball. His steal rate is nearly an all-time low for a guard his age. And the lowest by anyone approaching his athleticism.

I’d rather have Derrick because o his passing ability and his ability to run an offense as well, but he’s still a guy who doesn’t do enough outside of scoring to win games. There’s a huge difference between what Derrick actually was last season and people’s impressions of how good he is.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think a lot of that praise stems from what he can potentially be down the road

Also, I think he was pretty damn good post injury. You would know better than I would, but didn’t he have a PER around 20 from mid December on? That’s pretty damn good to me, even if he didn’t steal the ball very often

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with PER is that it gives huge rewards to guys like Derrick who

take a lot of shots, even if they aren’t particularly efficient. It’s why Monta Ellis is overrated by PER.

On the other hand, Derrick’s TS% was 55%+ from mid December on if I’m not mistaken and 55%+ TS on over 20 ppg is pretty heady stuff.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, from January to April

Derrick posted 22.5 ppg on 55.1 TS%. Nuts.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

through April*

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

Give him time.

He’s making excellent progress in that department as Matt has been quick to remind us.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 3:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Derrick also isn't any kind of magical point guard.

He’s merely average at creating for his teammates. Almost all of his value to this point is wrapped up in scoring like Gordon and Stuckey.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 1:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

I agree with that

but being a point guard is more than just creating for others. I’ve been on Rose because he’s not the greatest passer, but he’s still pretty good, and he doesn’t turn the ball over. He controls the flow of the game, and handles the ball very well. Ben couldn’t do those things in a million years. Pretty much the same for Stuckey. I’m not getting these comparisons anyways, do you really think that Stuckey or Gordon are as good as Derrick? Or can play the point as good as them? If you do I think you need to stop looking at stats for a few minutes and just watch the games.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

His point, Im pretty sure

is that their similar styles and weaknesses on defense brings out the worst in each others games if they are paired together(where as hinrich-rose or hinrich-gordon, compliment each other making Gordon a fine defender) and that the duplication on offense may also limit their contributions there to a lesser degree. So pretty much the opposite of just looking at stats, other than player pairs which if I remember right did make Gordon-Rose out to be pretty awful defensively.

by reprisal on Aug 7, 2010 1:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

I get his point, but I disagree

I agree with what Fundamental has said, which is that perimeter defense as a whole is overrated. Whatever Kirk gave the team defensively was offset by how poorly he played on offense.

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 1:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's not what the team stats suggest though.

Hinrich obviously wasn’t an impact player, and neither really is Gordon when you sum everything up at the end of a season. But there’s no evidence that Hinrich killed the team offensively tot he point that his defense was irrelevant.

There is evidence that putting two mediums sized guards that are high usage/moderate efficiency on offense and average or worse defenders in the same backcourt results in the defense complications outweighing the offense advantages

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 2:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

Where is the evidence of this?

And how can you say there’s no evidence that Hinrich killed the team offensively to the point that his defense was irrelevant? They were worse with him on the court.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

I've looked at a lot of stats of backcourt

combinations and their plus/minus and player pairs stats over the last half dozen years.

You think I totally flip flopped from a strong Gordon supporter to becoming one of the unpopular Hirnich supporter who didn’t get to sit at the cool kids’ table anymore without really thinking about it and researching it.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

Good point

Why would anyone want to subject themselves to such hatred

Superteams suck.

by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 7, 2010 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not saying you didn't research it, I was just interested to see what you saw

You can’t say “there’s plenty of evidence” and not expect to get called out to tell us what you mean.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't have any kind of file anymore,

but it was enough to convince someone that was skeptical going in.

It reinforced that basketball has more in common with the NFL than MLB when it comes to player interactions.

  

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 2:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

In terms of the way that

complimentary skills and system fit matter. That basketball players can clearly be significantly less or more than the sum of their individual statistics.

Like the NFl there are a handful of franchise quarterbacks and after that there are a whole bunch of players whose value varies greatly depending on context.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 3:13 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

You can believe that and not disagree
Whatever Kirk gave the team defensively was offset by how poorly he played on offense.

Is not very controvesal and at least mostly true. And overrated or not, perimeter defense is still a factor in the NBA.

The only question is whether or not their is a compounding impact and how much it matters. Looking at last years pairs suggest their was. So now, did Derrick improve enough to negate that, or will he in the future?

by reprisal on Aug 7, 2010 2:09 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yes he did

but would pairing him with Gordon have created an inefficiency in their contributions or not?

by reprisal on Aug 7, 2010 2:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think so.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well

I think it may have, perhaps only to a small degree. Probably not enough to make Hinrich-Rose better. But I see that as pretty much the krux of the argument.

by reprisal on Aug 7, 2010 2:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm not even really arguing that Hinrich-Rose would

have been demonstrably better than Gordon-Rose. When this started I was merely challenging the idea that Gordon would have been clearly better last season. That’s an easy claim to make here where Hinrich was the site’s scape goat, but not a claim that’s as black and white under close scrutiny.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 3:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

And to think this all started because I made an off-the-cuff snarky comment

about how persuasive YaoPau can be even when he’s wrong.

He even admitted he was just playing devil’s advocate re: Bogans!

Ah well.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 3:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well I thought I was just making my

own snarky reply. I wasn’t really looking to rehash this debate tonight.

by Scotter on Aug 7, 2010 3:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

By the way, I just want to take this opportunity to point out that Rose's ridiculously low turnover rate is probably his most underrated attribute

The TOV%s last year of a bunch of PGs (and PGish SGs):

Rose – 12.5
CP3 – 13.5
D-Williams – 16.9
Rondo – 19.3
Billups – 13.0
Nash – 21.4
Westbrook – 16.6
Baron Davis – 15.6
Tyreke Evans – 13.6
Wade – 12.2 (he’s ridiculous too – another reason why the Rose – Wade comparison works)

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 7, 2010 1:58 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

He does average 3+ turnovers/ 36 min, which is why you'd think he'd be bad

But because he uses so many possession, his TOV% is actually ridiculously low.

Pat Riley is the devil.

by Poloplaya14 on Aug 7, 2010 2:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, he dominates the ball a ton. It's nuts how few mistakes he makes, especially

considering he was really the only player worth a shit on that team this year and he got doubled routinely.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 2:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

and yet...even with the shit sandich...

Hinrich still had a better year than Gordon last year…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Aug 7, 2010 9:32 AM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly, If people are going to

continue to conveniently omit the fact that Ben Gordon was injured for a good portion of last year then seriously what the point in explaining the comparisons to Hinrich? Or at least if you’re going to leave that part out, at least admit the guy was avg close to 25ppg before he went down.

by Dils on Aug 7, 2010 11:25 AM CDT up reply actions  

And Hinrich was injured this year too.

And so was Rose at the beginning of the year. It’s part of the game.

by Unrealcity on Aug 7, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you're going to debate a point, debate the point

I laid out several ideas that you could’ve debated, but instead you respond by attacking my credibility… for what purpose?

I use stats to try to reduce uncertainty. There’s always a margin of error, but the idea is the more angles I look at the more I can try to reduce that error. Mistakes will happen, and if you don’t agree with most of what I write, that’s fine. But disregarding numbers that seem to point in favor of a different opinion because a certain person happened to type them isn’t going to take the conversation anywhere.

And I’d love to see any support for how you’re certain that Gordon would’ve been better for the Bulls last year. Gordon was awful last year, the Pistons had a 107.7 ORating and 115.4 DRating when he was on the court, and they still have to pay him $12 mil a year for the next four years. I know he was hurt last year, but so was Hinrich. And I think the Bulls did pretty well last year. I’m not saying I’m right or you’re right about Gordon vs. Hinrich, but there’s no evidence for you to be sure that you’re right.

by YaoPau on Aug 7, 2010 11:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Honestly, I wasn't all that serious with that comment. It was meant to be more of playful snark, but obviously it

wasn’t taken that way by most.

I think that you’ve omitted Bogans most recent 1 and 2 year APMs in favor of more “stable” numbers, but I tend to think that the more recent numbers with Bogans are more accurate and by those he was terrible. His 2 year APM last year was -3.53 and his 1 year APM was -4.74. The year before his 2 year APM was -.05 and his 1 year APM was -2.85. He’s 30 years old and a guard. Those guys tend to drop off and he wasn’t dropping off from a high point. His PER is absolutely dreadful and his defense is simply not that good. He’s a marginally above average defender, but he’s simply an offensive zero. The best thing about him is that he gets out of the way on that end, which if it sounds like damning with faint praise, it is.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 1:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bogans NOT a good signing

Why did the bulls sign another shooting gaurd like Brewer? Bogans hardly played in last years playoffs. He’ll make a basket or two but he will be a NONFACTOR in the 4th qtr of games and for defensive matchups we have Brewer. At this point, I don’t see the Bulls getting better than a #4 seed in next years playoffs unless we can get more firepower and get more size. Celtics saw this and thats why they signed Von Wafer and Shaq O’neil; not a Keith Bogans! THIS WAS NOT A GOOD SIGNING.

by MCREW on Aug 7, 2010 12:02 AM CDT reply actions  

Von Wafer is not an NBA level player and Shaq is a horrible fit for the C's. Both those moves were dumb. Ainge has quickly

become almost as overrated as Dumars as a GM. He made the trades for Allen and Garnett (brilliant), stole Rondo in the draft (great move) and got Rondo on a cheapo extension (another great move). Other than that he’s been pretty crap. Drafting Giddens, Pruitt, Bill Walker, and now Avery Bradley were all terrible decisions.

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 7, 2010 12:05 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What?

His great moves far outweigh the bad ones. You forgot to mention the Glen Davis pick, which was excellent. Giddens was the last pick in the first round, Avery Bradley has yet to play a game and Bill Walker was a good injury gamble, picked in the middle of the second round. Your problems with Ainge are busted second round picks**? He put together a team that’s been in contention for championships for several years now, and that’s great work. He’s done a very, very good job.

  • San Antonio 2nd round picks: Ryan Richards, DeJuan Blair, Jack Mclinton, Nando De Colo, Goren Dragic, James Gist, Marcus Williams, Giorgos Printezis, etc.

Most teams suck in the second round.

by dakoose on Aug 7, 2010 4:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Glen Davis is wildly overrated. He's a scoring big man who can put up some good numbers occasionally, but mostly he sucks.

Doesn’t rebound or pass and he’s a mediocre defender.

And Ainge’s signings have been bad. Marquis Daniels sucks and was hurt all year… because he’s always hurt every year. They spent money on Steph Marbury, who was a joke at the time and sucked ass in green. He’s never been able to find a true backup PG for Rondo, despite their recurring need for one and plenty of them being available over that time. His big moves were brilliant and it was enough for them to win a title, but in filling out a roster and continuing to prosper as the Big 3 decline, he’s been pretty bad.

And if you’re using DeJuan Blair and Goran Dragic as evidence that the Spurs draft poorly in the second round- well, that’s idiotic. Ryan Richards was just drafted and has huge potential, he’s yet to play a game, so we probably shouldn’t close the book on him, no?

The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.

by fundamentallysound on Aug 8, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Who says

Avery Bradley is a bad pick? He should at least be able to replicate everything that Tony Allen’s ever done.

"I want to be that guy. I want to be the reason the Bulls are back."- Derrick Rose.
"I'm never leaving Chicago."- Derrick Rose

by Cosmis on Aug 8, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well

you might not think him very good (I’m not defending him or anything), but I think it’s a little early to call it a bad pick. Say he goes out gives them 6 or 7 ppg off the bench while defending his position.

Surely that would be a better than Giddens, Pruitt or Bill Walker.

Just saying it’s a little early to condemn a guy who hasn’t played yet.

"I want to be that guy. I want to be the reason the Bulls are back."- Derrick Rose.
"I'm never leaving Chicago."- Derrick Rose

by Cosmis on Aug 13, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Von wafer and shaq? good lord man

the more i read people complaining about bogans the more i realize hes exactly what we need. A stabalizing veteran presence that wont come in with the second unit and JAMES JOHNSON everything up. The guys gonna sit in the corner and shoot open threes and play solid defense. For the veteran minimum Im thrilled with that signing. AND we can still get rudy, this hasnt hurt our chances with him at all, we need to realize bogans is not going to play the roll that rudy would/will.

by NeilFunk69 on Aug 7, 2010 1:13 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

that edit a player function should be locked for scrub players

from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"

by sin on Aug 7, 2010 1:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

that is pretty good and i like it! but perhaps rudy have a problem with a deep roster…anyway, bulls look pretty good!

by roseBALLER1 on Aug 7, 2010 9:43 AM CDT reply actions  

having a deep roster is pretty good

i like it and for me the team looks really good. but i think rudy will have a problem with a that…so the rudy-option could be off the table.

by roseBALLER1 on Aug 7, 2010 9:53 AM CDT reply actions  

having a deep roster is pretty good

i like it and for me the team looks really good. but i think rudy will have a problem with that…so the rudy-option could be off the table.

by roseBALLER1 on Aug 7, 2010 9:54 AM CDT reply actions  

I guess with him 10th or 12th man or whatever

It doesn’t really matter, but sure is uninspiring. I’d rather have seen TMac or Eddie House myself or probably a long list of guys.

by Grinder in Training on Aug 7, 2010 10:19 AM CDT reply actions  

Portland consider waiting to Trade Rudy

Sources say Portland is considering waiting to see if they can get a better offer from what the Bulls have offered for Rudy Fernandez.

If Rudy gets seriously hurt in the World Championships then that would GREATLY REDUCE Rudy’s trade value to ZERO. Is that a risk that Portland is willing take for someone who is not part of thier regular rotation anymore?

by MCREW on Aug 7, 2010 10:34 AM CDT reply actions  

Bogans

Hey he doesnt suck he started for the spurs, several games.
Greg poppovich know basket ball remeber he has a championship.
So I`m pleased with this signing.
Now get Jai lucas and Amundson best roster in the leauge all proven players.
I would have liked 2 sign Sherron Collins, very strong scoring guard from Kansas.
Have we givin up on delonte west

by BIGBULL85 on Aug 7, 2010 11:03 AM CDT reply actions  

Comments For This Post Are Closed


User Tools

Welcome to the SB Nation blog about Chicago Bulls.

Links

"Best NBA Blogroll"
-- Dan Shanoff

The Essentials:
Bulls.com
NBA.com
HoopsHype
BallHype
ESPN.com NBA

Workin' the Beat:
KC Johnson - Tribune (blog)
John Jackson - Sun-Times (blog)
Mike McGraw - Daily Herald (blog)
Nick Friedell -  ESPNChicago.com
Sam Smith - Bulls.com
Aggrey Sam - CSNChicago.com


More Bulls Blogs/Forums:
Thank You Isiah
Chicago Bulls Podcasters
Bulls Confidential
By the Horns
Bullish Thoughts
Chicago Bulls KY
Pippen Ain't Easy
RealGM Bulls Forum
SportsTwo Bulls Forum

Blogging the Association:
(League Wide)
True Hoop
HoopsAnalyst
Give Me the Rock
The Basketball Jones
NBA Fanhouse
Hoops Addict
SBNation.com - NBA
ProBasketballTalk
ShamSports
Ball Don't Lie
The Painted Area


(Team-Centric)
Queen City Hoops

Bobcats Baseline
Knickerblogger.net    
Sixers' Shots
Forum Blue and Gold
SuperSonicSoul
Hornets247.com 
SonicsCentral.com 
ClipperBlog.com  
The Nugg Doctor
Loy's Place
Reds Army
Need4Sheed
THE WIZZNUTZZ
RaptorsForum.com
TWolvesBlog.com
Spurs Dynasty
David's Memphis Grizzlies Blog
The Bratwurst
Sixers Journal
Sixers 4 Guidos 
3 Shades of Blue  
CavsNews.com
RaptorTalk
Deceptively Quick
TheLakersNation.com
Utah Jazzer Blog
KnicksDefense.com
T. Jose Caldeford
Hoopinion
RaptorBlog.com
Suns @NBAWeblog.com
The Cowhide Globe
Stepien Rules
Project Spurs
Raptors Republic
Dino Nation Blog
Lake Show Life
Valley of the Suns
The KnicksBlog.com
Big Lakers Fan
Roundball Mining Company
Cavs: The Blog
48 Minutes of Hell
Daily Thunder
Piston Powered
The Two Man Game
PistonsNationBlog.com
Cowbell Kingdom.com
Hot Hot Hoops
NetsAreScorching
Celtics Hub
Orlando Magic Daily
Philadunkia
Truth About It
Always Miller Time
Slippery When Nets
Eight Points Nine Seconds
Howlin' T-Wolf
Red 94

MSM NBA blogs:

Ira Winderman (Heat)
Jason Quick (Blazers)
IndyStar.com (Pacers)
Michael Cunningham (Hawks) 
Full-Court Press (Pistons)
Jonathan Feigen (Rockets)
Rick Bonnell (Bobcats)
Jazz Notes
Chris Herrington (Grizzlies)
Orlando Sentinel
Michael Lee (Wizards)
Alan Hahn (Knicks)   
Doug Smith (Raptors)
Marc Berman (Knicks)
Al Iannazzone (Nets)

For the Statheads:
Basketball-Reference.com
APBR Discussion
Knickerblogger's Stat Page
82Games.com
Doug's Stats
Popcorn Machine
HoopData


Other Resources:

HoopsHype Salaries
SportsTwo Salaries
ESPN.com Trade Machine
RealGM: NBA Draftpicks Owed
ShamSports.com Salaries
DraftExpress

 


Guy who does everything

Blogabull_s_small your friendly BullsBlogger