Ranking the top 11 Small Forwards
Luol actually gets some love in this post. Nice to see two of our starting 5 ranked in the top 10 for their positions(Rose was named in an earlier list). I wonder if Boozer or Noah will crack the top 10 for their positions.
If you're wondering, no Bulls made it on the SG list.
almost 2 years ago
ddub101
214 comments
6 recs |
Comments
I have never heard of Reggie Williams
I thought the author was making a joke about the old Reggie Willams from back in the day, but I’ve seriously have never heard of freakin Reggie Williams of the GSW.
http://www.sportsandmusik.com
by GarForman on Aug 23, 2010 4:41 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Does anybody else get a little annoyed when rankings like this count down backwards?
I always end up scrolling down and working my way up. Just my Andy Rooney moment of the day.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Really?
You prefer to start at 1? That’s rather anti-climactic. Do you like to know how a movie ends before it starts, also? I’m weird in the sense that I hate to see who the next person (or whatever) is listed after who I’m reading about. So I make sure to slowly scroll so as to not spoil it. (yes, I definitely need help)
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 5:27 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Well, everyone already knew LeBron would be number one for the SF position.
In fact, if you want to go with a safe bet for all the number one positions, just look at the league leader in that particular position by PER. Dwyer likes it, quite a bit.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 7:33 PM CDT up reply actions
And he likes offense quite a bit...
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
Who doesn't?
Well, I think most Bulls fans who want to see an exciting product like offense right now. After all, the most-loved player gets all the accolades from fans because he’s been spectacular at offense, despite being a liability on defense his first year and merely “okay” the next.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
so how would your rankings be different?
you seem to imply that he is undervaluing defense. Who should be ranked higher?
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 24, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Or lower...
Gallinari? Really?
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
yeah no one wants the climax before the foreplay
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
by sin on Aug 23, 2010 11:46 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think Deng will be better than Pierce this year and better all-around than Granger.
Although, admittedly, I don’t think I’ve seen Granger play, so I can’t evaluate defense.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He'd have to be A LOT better on defense for that to happen
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 5:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I've seen him a couple times and my impression is that he coasts.
Doesn’t seem to be interested the entire game. He’s got great physical tools and can put up stats—and if he played up to his physical ability, he’d definitely be better than Deng—but based on their actual pattern of play to date, I think they’re overall contributions are pretty close.
by arjoseph on Aug 23, 2010 6:52 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Granger has gotten better on defense, but he's still got a ways to go to catch Deng on that end. I'd say they are pretty even all things considered (Danny's far superior O, Luol's far superior D).
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 7:35 PM CDT up reply actions
I have to assume
you mean Rudy Gay, and not Senor Fernandez.
There are really only two plays: Romeo and Juliet, and put the darn ball in the basket.
-- Abe Lemons
i cant front rudy and rose have a real good chemistry on the court
I reject your reality... and substitute my own.
I don't think it's that simple
Deng is probably the better all around player, but doesn’t durability count for something? The fact that you could basically pencil Rudy in for 82 games means a lot more to me than the improved defense and rebounding that you get from Luol. I’d take Rudy on that basis alone. (This is without considering contracts. Just one player versus the other)
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 6:14 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
That's kind of silly.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 7:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Because Deng is the far superior player and that difference over the course of 70-ish games more than makes up for the extra 12 that Rudy sees the floor
and is merely pretty good.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
youre telling me deng does so much in 70 games that if he had 12 games out in the season rudy would still not be able to out produce ?
thats just bullshit
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
by sin on Aug 24, 2010 2:23 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
not really
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Deng is the better basketball player
if you’re talking about which player has more impact in a team, it’s probably closer – but still clearly Deng
by Stacey_Is_King on Aug 23, 2010 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Yea, I said I would prefer Deng under normal circumstances
but the fact that he hasn’t been healthy for an entire season in a while sways me toward Gay.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:18 PM CDT up reply actions
Gay has been remarkably durable over the course of his career
79-80 games a season, over 37 minutes a game the last 3 years.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 23, 2010 8:27 PM CDT up reply actions
Nice, that's what I'm sayin
This holds a lot more value to me than Luol being marginally better at few things than Rudy
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions
Luol is more than marginally betterr than Rudy Gay. He's a lot better.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 8:34 PM CDT up reply actions
You're stating that as if it's a fact
Luol Deng isn’t good enough to be that much better than Rudy Gay. In order for that statement to be accurate, Rudy would have to suck. Which I don’t think is the case
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:42 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm with you on this
Stating opinions as fact is lame. And I can’t find any evidence to show that Deng is significantly better.
Of course minutes matter. Gay has averaged 3000 minutes the past three years compared to 2150 minutes for Deng. That’s almost 50% more minutes.
Offensively, Gay has posted a higher PER each of the past 3 years. He can also shoot the 3 a bit and command double teams, so he can fit with more lineup types than Deng can. Defensively, I think we’d all agree Deng has the advantage, but it’s not like Gay is a poor defender. He’s got every tool in the book, he’s averaged more blocks and steals per 36 than Deng over his career, and the most used NBA lineup this year (Conley/Mayo/Gay/Randolph/Gasol) played nearly 1500 minutes together with a 108.1 drating. That’s average, and try to find the above average defender in that lineup.
I’d love to see some evidence that supports fs’s idea.
by YaoPau on Aug 24, 2010 12:55 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Their career WS/48 from b-r.com
Deng: .118
Rudy: .065
Deng also has him beat every single year in adjusted plus minus, you can check it out on www.basketballvalue.com.
Plus, it is my opinion that Deng is a much better defender based on watching both guys. Rudy does have the tools but he doesn’t really use them all that well. He’s not always interested in defending. I mean, I know I generally laugh at people who go by the eye test, but it’s not like I don’t have some numbers to back this stuff up. Throw in the fact that the Bulls have been a better defensive team with Deng than the Grizzlies have been with Gay and I don’t think it’s so far out. And the differences in PER (a primarily offensive stat) are not significant enough to have any meaning at all.
07-08 RG: 17.4, LD: 17.0
08-09 RG: 15.3, LD: 14.7
09-10 RG: 16.2, LD: 16.1
In fact, the entire difference can be tied to PER’s (over)rewarding of Rudy for being a higher USG guy and the fact that Rudy gets more boxscore defensive stats, blocks + steals. Deng had the better ORtg every year with the exception of last year, where Rudy had him beat.
I will concede that Rudy is closing the gap and did so in a rather big way last year and a lot of my evaluation was based off past impressions, but I still think Luol is a much better defender than Rudy even if he doesn’t do the things that show up in the box score whereas Rudy does. It might not be enough to make up for the minutes difference like I initially posited though and maybe that does make Rudy the guy you might want instead like JbJ said. I’d be happy with either guy, but Deng’s got the better pricetag.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 8:09 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
You've been a huge proponent of the 3pt shot and floor spacing
You changed my opinion of how good the Bulls’ offense will be this year because of it. Rudy has the slight edge in PER, but I’d think of anybody you’d see his fit as a major positive compared to Deng. He’s not a great penetrator or 3pt shooter, but imagine the spacing of a Rose/Korver/Gay/Boozer/Noah lineup compared to a Rose/Korver/Deng/Boozer/Noah lineup.
I think win shares is a really iffy stat, but since you went there, Gay had more win shares than Deng each of the past three years. It’s hard to say “minutes don’t matter in this discussion” then use win shares per 48 when the cumulative shows Gay ahead.
And as for APM, you’re right that Luol is ahead, but Gay’s APM numbers are solid too, and he’s within the standard error in both the 1-year and 2-year APMs. So there’s no way to conclude anything there. In fact, there’s a decent chance that Gay’s true APM was higher than Luol’s in the past two years and because of error APM couldn’t see it.
I agree on the pricetag though :)
We're talking about these two players in the abstract though (or at least I was). It's not Deng's fault the Bulls have no 3 point shooters in the backcourt either.
I wasn’t talking about who I’d want more for this Bulls team, just who is the better player overall. I think its clear that Deng’s the better player, but Rudy might be the better fit for this particular Bulls squad. Unfortunately, Rudy is super duper overpaid.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 1:25 PM CDT up reply actions
Rudy isn't a good 3 pt shooter either
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 24, 2010 1:29 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I said that in the post
He’s not bad though. Career 34.6%, making over 1 three per game over his career. Besides, there’s value in the threat of a 3pt shot. If Gay is standing behind the arc, he’s at least good enough to keep a guy on him. Luol standing 20ft from the hoop does nothing.
I like Deng. I just don’t like that you almost have to surround him with guys who space the floor (penetrators, passers, post scorers) to make an offense with him work. You won’t find many wing starters who can’t penetrate, don’t shoot the 3, don’t score from the post, and don’t get assists. To answer fs’s point, the abstract is how they’d fare on the 30 NBA teams. You can plug Rudy in to any offense and he’ll be at least average. Deng on an offense like the Bulls’ reduces his value.
by YaoPau on Aug 24, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I disagree with this
i’d say that send definitely gets a lot of respect 20 ft from the baske because of his rep as an excellent midrange shooter.
Pat Riley is the devil.
But I think Yau's point is this
Deng being open to shoot 20 foot jumpers inside the line isn’t as much of a threat as the potential threat of Gay shooting a 3. Make no mistake about it, Deng’s best shot which you speak of is the worst shot in basketball. As an opposing coach I’d rather he shoot it. His shot isn’t making me change my defense, it isn’t making me rotate a defender of to him or throw him a double team. You know why? Because it’s worth 2 points. Why do you think he’s always open to shoot it?
Now if there’s a threat of him taking it to the hole off the dribble, or setting up a play for another teammate for a 3 shot, then I have to pay attention to Deng from a defensive standpoint because so many other things could take place with the ball in his hands. But no, the worst thing that can happen is Luol taking a long 2pt shot and at most he’s going to put up what 6 or 7of those shots? As a opposing coach I’ll let him have that and go worry about double teaming Rose.
Yeah but it worked!
while i agree that deng in a bad offense with little off
ball movement reduces his value, its not clear that its lower than gay’s. you say gay would be at least average in any offense as if it were the case that deng would not, and im not sure thats true. even if you bump up dengs USG% to match rudy’s, and then give deng a corresponding hit to his Ortg, he still does slightly better relative to his teams’ Ortg than rudy does.
"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."
- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson
Floor spacing is good,
but it isn’t all created equally, is it (real question)? take for example someone like salmons who can shoot the 3 but stifles movement.
I'd like to quickly point out, though, that a 108.1 rating is not average. It is a half point below average (107.6)
which is significant over 1500 minutes.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 8:18 AM CDT up reply actions
"try to find the above average defender in that lineup." ????
Really?!?! That’s your rebuttal when complaining about a supposed lazy argument? How about Marc Gasol being significantly better than the rest?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Marc Gasol is not an above average defender
not on this planet anyway.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 24, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions
did you not see all of tyger's question marks?
based on their frequency I’d put Marc Gasol just behind Tim Duncan :)
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:23 AM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
close
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Marc Gasol is a good man to man big man defender. His help defense sucks because of his slow feet.
He works, though and he dominates the glass, which also helps.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions
are you saying this from your frequent observations of the Memphis Grizzlies...
…this past season, or from what you remember when he first came into the league?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Marc Gasol is a terrible defender, come on now.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 24, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions
no, he's not
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
What's going on with all these one sentence definitive statements from everyone?
This place is turning into a Bulls-centric David Thorpe chat.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 24, 2010 10:17 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
i feel the same...
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
Absolutely...
Either it’s one sentence definitive answers or calling someone an idiot for an opinion. No back and forth or anything real conversation. What’s the point of that?
Yeah but it worked!
it's pretty exclusively a tyger bit
I hate bits!
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:41 AM CDT up reply actions
really?
I didn’t think it was. I actually thought I used to rehash old arguments with new members every time it came up. Then… Yahoo!, Rose, Summer of 2010… too many new people that are stupid. We’ve had countless discussions on this site about a lot of things.
I’ve (finally) learned that there’s no point in answering a one-sentence statement with a lengthy rebuttal that involves numbers, professional scouting reports, etc. People are idiots, and they’ll continue to be idiots. If someone new actually wants to learn something, there are plenty of sites they can go aside from here. This isn’t really the place for well thought- out discussions. It happens from time to time, but it’s not exactly something you foster.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
This isn't the place for well-thought out discussions,
it’s a place to call people stupid…now I understand what I’ve been missing.
by Stacey_Is_King on Aug 25, 2010 8:50 PM CDT up reply actions
hmmmm not sure what's the problem. Make it funnier?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions
and Ozzie isn't stupid, or new
now, granted, we may have different lists.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
none of that wasn't meant specifically for ozzie
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I can't let tyger have all the fun.
Besides, I freaking love Marc Gasol.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 25, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions
You're an asshole, that's a fact.
I’m eating cereal.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 25, 2010 10:28 PM CDT up reply actions
no, he's not there's a reason his plus minus numbers sky-rocketed this year and the Grizzlies improved so much.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions
wrong gasol
youre thinking of the good one
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
they are both good. Pau is just better, but it's closer than you probably think.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 6:59 PM CDT up reply actions
we've been arguing on this before and i still dont see why you think deng is so much better than gay
i just dont see the evidence
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
come on Juice, Deng has improved in durability.
Yes he missed 12 games but the Bulls almost always made the playoffs with Deng losing games while Memphis never got there with Gay playing them all. Deng is better in every aspect of the game and I can go with a guy who lose 12 games – specially one who was overused because last year team had no rotation and he had to step up with Rose/Noah being injured
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 24, 2010 7:41 AM CDT up reply actions
I said I liked Luol more
but I also think injuries should count for something. I don’t see where he stopped getting hurt. He missed a lot of games last year, and had to play at less than 100% in the playoffs just so that he didn’t miss out yet again. Until he plays a full season (or at least most of the season) without missing critical games, he won;t shake the “injury prone” label in my eyes. I’m pulling for him though.
And I don’t have an issue with people saying Luol is better, cause like I said, I agree with that. But when people definitely state that he’s not just better, but “much better”, I have to call bullshit on that because I don’t even think that it’s possible if you consider the output of both players up to this point in their careers.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 24, 2010 6:08 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He's better and it's not all that close
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 7:36 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
This is just getting silly now
It’s almost like people are intentionally overrating Deng now, because he’s been undervalued since signing that big contract. Since when did he become this elite defender? Did I miss that? He’s good, but he’s not as amazing as people are making him out to be on that end. And why shouldn’t durability count against him? Actually being able to play is probably the most important quality in a player. Greg Oden might be the best Center in the league, but nobody can see it, so who gives a shit? (that’s not my opinion btw, just a hypothetical)
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:16 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Gay is mediocre on defense, whereas Deng is probably the 4th best defensive SF in the game behind only Iggy, Gerald Wallace, and LeBron.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 8:36 PM CDT up reply actions
Ok, I guess I'll give you that
But there isn’t a lot of value in having a great defensive player at that position. As we’ve seen with Deng several times, even though he is very good for his position, most of the time it’s not even enough to slow down some of the better 3’s in the league. Hid defense doesn’t offset the superior offensive talent of other players as much as you (and others) are making it seem.
Also, I would say there’s a pretty sizeable gap between Luol, and the three guys you mentioned ahead of him. Iggy, Wallace and Lebron (Lebron especially) are able to block shots and get steals which have a bigger impact on the game. Plus they’re still able to do what Lu excels at, which is be a sound, fundamental defender that stays in front of his guy and plays well in a team concept.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:52 PM CDT up reply actions
do you guys really believe Deng is better than Kirilenko or Artest?
For this upcoming season I also like a guy like Batum or Battier better than Deng defensively. Deng is good defensively, especially as a team defender, but I don’t think he is among the top tier. I put him just below.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 23, 2010 8:58 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I was surprised how high KD was on Deng
I was expecting to see Deng come in at #11 or 12.
by ToroToroToro on Aug 23, 2010 9:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Deng is a top ten
SF in the NBA, you’re not putting Gallo, Maggette, AK47, or Artest in front of him
by QUINTEN DALEY on Aug 24, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions
Wow, very good point
I kind of forget about Kirilenko because of his injuries, but I’d definitely put him ahead of Deng. As for Artest, that’s a good one too, although I don’t think he’s head and shoulders better, he’s not nearly as good as he used to be imo.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 9:07 PM CDT up reply actions
Kirilenko has sucked for 4 years in a row
how much more do you need?!! On AK prime, ok but now? it’s not even close IMO. Deng is way better than AK including the durability aspect. Now you are just being a hater
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 24, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Dude, what are you talking about?
This is all about DEFENSE. I never said AK is the better player overall. (Although, when healthy, it’s a lot closer than you’re making it sound)
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 24, 2010 6:11 PM CDT up reply actions
My bad
I was not talking about only D. And I don’t see Deng as a elite defender as well. Slightly above average at best. But all things consider, for the last 4 years, it’s no even close.
And anyway, for someone who trashes Deng for his lack of health you should not make a case for AK.
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 25, 2010 1:03 PM CDT up reply actions
I'd say he's better than artest
Or at least he probably will be this year as artest declines. I don’t think he’s better than kirilenko though.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 23, 2010 10:15 PM CDT up reply actions
Well, Artest is a good defender, but he's also one of the worst offensive players in the league.
He fluctuates so much from game to game that he’s not going to be valuable to every team. You can throw Deng on any roster and he’ll probably produce the same stat line, Artest on this team would be a disaster.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 23, 2010 11:38 PM CDT up reply actions
Just so you know...
Deng had a dMULT rating of .812 last year… one of the best in the NBA (largely a measure of 1 on 1 defense), he also has consistently improved our team’s Drating by a lot, every time he is in the lineup. His APM numbers have been solid for a long time now, he has generally been accepted by most fans as a very good team defender and is one of the best Rebounders for his position in the league…
Basically, what am I missing here? Deng is a stud defensively, I find it very difficult to argue otherwise, I think calling him the 4th best defensive SF in the game might be doing him an injustice.
by Basketball on Aug 25, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
He might be the best man-to-man defensive SF in the league
But his help defense isn’t nearly as impactful as that of Lebron, Gerald Wallace, and Kirilenko.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Why do you say that?
I mean, you probably have a point, but I’d like to know what gives you that impression (the not being as impactful on team defense bit)?
Those guys get significantly more steals + blocks.
Plus their APMs back that up.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Well according to this guy anyways, and I trust his judgement
http://www.basketballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=1071
Pat Riley is the devil.
Hmm..
Kevin Pelton makes good cases for why those players are good at what they do. But that listing doesn’t necessarily represent an order as much as a list of 5 guys he knows to be good at defense. If you are looking at APM numbers, Wallace would be lower and so would Kirilenko’s. LBJ is also the first or second best offensive player in the league, which makes it at least a bit difficult to figure how much of that is based on his defense.
How would something like a steal or a block show help defense better? For example Deng helps D on a player and blocks him weakside. Result: missed shot or turnover. Deng helps D on a player and creates a miss or an uncredited turnover. Even Kevin Pelton rates Thabo higher than Wade….
There isn’t much there that would change my opinion that Deng deserves to be considered in that elite group of defensive SF and in the discussion for the best. And nothing to tell me that he isn’t as impactful as those others.
Don't get me wrong
I’m not saying deng’s not up there with those guys. What im saying is that I think deng’s man-to-man d is what stands out (as evidenced by his dMult) as opposed to Wallace and kirilenko who are more excellent at playing help D.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Deng's help D is actually quite good, he just doesn't block tons of shots.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions
I know it is
But I wouldn’t call it as good as Gerald wallace’s or kirilenko’s.
Pat Riley is the devil.
At any rate,
thanks for showing me that article. I actually think Pelton does a pretty good job of breaking the Defense into tiers and using what is at his disposal to do so.
From what I took away from the article, to him the only players he seems convinced are above the rest in their class are Dwight Howard then Bogut for C’s. Otherwise, he does not make any definitive claims for any of the others.
I've been trying to make the same points but it's tough
I’m also at a loss with this stance that Scottie Pippen..oops I’m sorry, I mean Luol Deng is all of a sudden this great defender. Yeah and I’m sure there’s some stat that will say he’s the best defender at his position in the league per minutes on Tuesday night games but come on. He’s a good defender and he rebounds well for his position.That’s it. And even with that, he’s not so great at defending that it puts him head and shoulders above Rudy Gay in terms of impact to a team and all-around play. The fact that Gay can shoot and demand a double team alone is enough to rate him the better player.
Yeah but it worked!
actually, there is no such stat that says Deng's a great defender
or that he isn’t. which is part of the reason this argument is so…robust.
I’d trade Deng for Rudy Gay right now, and it’s definitely close. I can’t get behind this Deng is ‘way’ better train.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions
paychecks being equal
i might consider it, but not with rudy at the max lol.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Aug 24, 2010 12:41 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
i think 30 out of 30 gms would pick gay over deng easily if their contracts were the same
and thats not only based on deng’s injury history
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
30 of 30 GM's wouldn't agree on whether to give Isaiah Thomas a contract
You’re going to find it hard to get that unanimity.
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
by Prevenge on Aug 27, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
what's with this that gay is a good shooter?
he’s not that good at shooting. he shot less than 33% on threes last season. granted that was his worst season, but his best season was his rookie year at 36%. rudy and deng are almost EXACTLY the same on efficiency, actually. they shoot around the same amount of FTs as well, and shoot it at the same rate.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
Last season Gay was a better jumpshooter, Deng better at close shots.
Which of course makes no sense because all people say is Gay is the super awesome athlete who gets to the basket at will and Deng is a lame jumpshooter.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 24, 2010 3:08 PM CDT up reply actions
Where we have NOBODY in the top 30...
Kinda sucks.
by Khalid El-Amin on Aug 23, 2010 6:55 PM CDT up reply actions
That giant sucking sound you hear is emanating from the hole the Bulls have at SG.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions
I don’t see whats so bad about that no team is perfect. The team has to conceal or diminish individual weaknesses like how the Celtics do. Not sure if Rondo or Perkins are what they are without Thibs or the big 3.
"Well you're giving me the opportunity to agree with Bill Plaschke and Marriotti, I'm gonna pass" - Tim Cowlishaw
by Camry on Aug 23, 2010 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The problem is, that the Bulls starter at SG is actually gonna magnify one of their biggest weaknesses
rather than conceal it. They really needed someone that can shoot it a little more imo.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:10 PM CDT up reply actions
They tried to do so by going for Redick. They probably should have overpaid a little more for him.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 23, 2010 8:37 PM CDT up reply actions
Yep, I think they messed up on that one
His skillset would have been worth overpaying for, for this particular team
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 23, 2010 8:54 PM CDT up reply actions
At least someone is overpaying for him.
Tried to find the bargain bin, all we found was the Bogans bin.
Yes...
After Orlando beats us in the eastern conference semis, at leas we’ll have the consolation of knowing that thu overpaid.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 23, 2010 10:18 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
well,
thabo was #29, and i’d rather have brewer personally. soo yeah.
"They should. They better. I'm Vinny Del Negro!"
by Jaina on Aug 23, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions 3 recs
And Hinrich was unranked...
Or did I miss that?
by Khalid El-Amin on Aug 24, 2010 12:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
agreed on that.
Thabo still stinks.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Because one guy's opinion matters...
I have also started ranking the NBA players by position, and I have decided that Ronnie Brewer is definitely top 20, with his efficient offense and aggressive defense…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
It's not the ONE opinion as much as I agree we don't have top 30 SG...
And arguing we have a top 20 SG isn’t that comforting either.
It’s really just nitpicking though. Let’s sere how these guys all play together this year. If Rose has the kind of year he is capable of having he could easily elevate the game of everyone he plays with.
by Khalid El-Amin on Aug 24, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm pretty interested to see where Noah gets ranked.
Seems to me there are a lot of ways you could rank 2-10.
Pat Riley is the devil.
My Guess is 6 or 7
Then again, Dwyer has been projecting and not just looking at where they are now. So he could go as high as 4 or 5 if Dwyer is feeling particularly homerific.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 23, 2010 10:25 PM CDT up reply actions
I honestly have no idea where he'll end up
Where do you put Yao and Greg Oden? Either one could flat out dominate the league or not play at all. Do you count guys like Amare as centers. I think I could definitely name 10+ guys who are arguably centers and arguably better than Noah. I guess that’s part of the reason why rankings don’t mean a whole lot.
Pat Riley is the devil.
Top ten, pseudo ranked.
Howard
Duncan
Lopez
Bogut
Bynum
Yao
Noah
Horford
Oden
Okafor
Haywood
I saw T2 at Walgreens in Deerfield he’s tall. if you’re wondering what his grocery list included: magnums, french vanilla ice cream and a 20 oz sprite
by Super-Structure on Aug 24, 2010 4:08 AM CDT up reply actions
You are underrating Horford as a center...
And you have completely overlooked Camby, Mac Gasol, Dalembert, Varajao and Perkins…(with Perkins being injured, the O’Neals could have a good season in Boston)…
My point is that a homer could certainly place Noah top 5, but someone else could easily place him outside of the top 10. This writer is a bit of a homer, but also values offense over little things, so not sure how he will rate Noah…
Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.
My ranking for centers would have
Dwight
Marc Gasol
Brook Lopez
Bogut (docked some for health and some for last year potentially being a fluke)
Horford
Marcus Camby
Noah
(Guys that should be higher than this, but are way too often injured)
Yao
Bynum
Oden
I think that’s your top 10 guys, in some order and Noah’s in that group. Factoring in health, I put him 7th in the league at the center position.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 9:13 AM CDT up reply actions
I wonder if KD will count Duncan as a center.
I mean, I know Timmy likes to believe he’s a PF, but he’s been playing center for years now. If you count Duncan, I’d say he’s top 10.
Al Jefferson could be a C as well
though I wouldn’t put him ahead of Noah
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
A good question is whether amare's a center.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 24, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions
why not ahead of noah?
aside from injury derailed season the dude is a 20/10 monster at least
noah is at best a 15/10 guy imo
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
because defense counts and al doesn't play any. he also doesn't pass well, set screens well, or score efficiently. he takes lots of shots.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 7:01 PM CDT up reply actions
and....hurt all the time
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:42 AM CDT up reply actions
He's said he's going to move Timmy to PF because of Tiago Splitter's arrival (finally).
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
Noah had health problems too, remember?
I’d put Yao ahead of Noah, but it’s as if Yao is either way ahead or DQed, so that’s tough.
Would move Noah ahead of Camby though.
Duncan could be listed at C, though maybe not with Splitter coming over.
I’d also consider Nene ahead of Noah.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions
Yes Noah had health problems, but not on the persistent level that Yao has had (where he misses entire seasons)
or Bynum (being out for huge swaths of seasons) or Oden (missing basically two entire seasons).
I forgot about Nene, which I always seem to do for some reason even though I love the guy. I think Noah and Nene are pretty close, but I’d probably rather have Nene because of his ability to guard bulkier dudes because of his own heft.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions
Marc Gasol is really, really freaking good and healthy to boot.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions
I was surprised by that ranking too
I like the guy, but 16.9 USG% last year. That’s lower than Noah’s.
I think he has the game to do more, but he plays with Zach Randolph, Mayo, and Rudy Gay. There's only one ball.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions
His TS% is remarkable. 61.7%. Noah doesn't touch that. They rebound about the same and pass about the same.
I think Gasol’s every bit the defender Joakim is, just in a different way. Joakim helps and hedges, whereas Gasol bodies big dudes, blocks shots a good bit and actually snagged more steals than Joakim last year.
I think I might have underrated Al Horford some, though. He might deserve to be up there with Gasol and definitely up there with Lopez, who I placed too high on my initial list. I just don’t think he’s as good as his stat sheet (19 and 9) suggest. His defensive box score stats were lower than Gasols and he was responsible for huge minutes on the interior of one of the league’s worst defenses.
So I’d rearrange and go 1. Dwight 2. Al Horford 3. Bogut 4. Gasol 5. Lopez 6. Nene 7. Noah 8. Camby 9. Yao (because he’s so hit or miss health-wise, if he’s healthy he’s #2, if he’s not, he’s a 0). 10. Bynum and Oden (tied, with same concerns as Yao).
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 12:03 AM CDT up reply actions
I'm not sure where you get your defensive analysis from
He’s probably not bad, but he’d have to be exceptional to get the #2 ranking, and he just doesn’t look physically gifted enough for me to believe that. His defensive box score numbers are just okay as well.
TS% is a product of the offense, and Memphis had a good one. Joakim was at 59.4% in 2009. Robin Lopez had a 62.1 TS% this past year on a 17.3 USG% and he’s a crap scorer. I love Gasol’s baby hook, and he’s clearly a level above Joakim/Lopez in terms of scoring skill, but I wouldn’t put him near Lopez’s 23.6 USG% and 57 TS% until he’s proven it. As for Lopez’s defense, he’s so massive (7’0.5" in shoes, 7’5.5" wingspan, 9’5" standing reach) with decent athleticism that I can’t see how he could be a bad defender. DraftExpress says “he’s been terrific on this end of the floor”. Are they overrating Lopez’s defense? Maybe. Is it worse than Gasol’s? I’m guessing no, but maybe. Is it so much worse than Gasol’s that it erases the advantage he’s had offensively? I’d doubt that. Plus Lopez turns 22 next year, Gasol turns 26.
Besides Lopez, there are plenty of high TS% centers who have reputations as excellent defenders: Nene, Haywood, Dalembert, Perkins all had a .570+ TS% and 15+ PER. Why is Gasol necessarily ahead of those guys? Also, I’d put Bynum in the discussion even with his injuries. Three straight 20+ PERs with good defense.
My list would be 1) Dwight 2) Bogut 3) Lopez 4) Horford 5) Bynum 6) Noah 7) Nene with a big group of Camby/Dalembert/Haywood/Gasol/Perkins mixed in after that. I think Gasol could separate himself from the group this year, but I don’t see a case for putting Gasol’s 19.3 PER and questionable defense over Nene’s 18.8 PER and great defense.
you dont think al jeff belongs in the top 5? or are you counting him as a pf?
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
You base your analysis of defense entirely too much based on a guys tools rather than what he actually does with them.
My point was this, teams with a good defensive center and solid wing defenders don’t end up 25th in defense like the Nets did this year. It was a group failure, but I believe interior D matters most and so he gets most of the blame.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions
I think I'm leaving a large enough error
There’s really no way to peg someone as a good or bad defender unless he has a firm reputation or a really high/low dAPM. And so without that information, all I can do is look at box score stats and tools. Lopez has very good tools, okay box score stats, his team’s defense was bad, and DX says he’s been terrific defensively. I take that to mean he’s between average and good, how are you coming to a different conclusion?
As for how terrible the Nets defense was this year, they had a 110.5 rating. Gasol’s Grizzlies had a 109.9 rating. That’s a 0.6 difference.
Gasol played with worse perimeter defenders than Lopez.
They both played with crap PF defenders (Z-Bo and Yi), though Lopez benefitted from playing alongside Josh Boone for a fair number of minutes and he actually is pretty much only a defensive player.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions
Are you really trying to separate the center from his 11 other teammates?
Team DRating is a vague stat. There’s really no way to determine whose supporting cast was better defensively last year, especially when the teams ended up so close.
If we're not trying to separate him from the rest of the teammates.
Then we can only assume he was equally responsible for a 110.11 DRating… Kind of shitty, no?
If we assume that he was different than the rest wouldn’t you have to at least attempt to put an argument as to why…
I think the point he's trying to make is that there's a pretty large gap between individual success and team success.
Therefore looking at team stats to demonstrate a player’s individual worth isn’t a good idea. Saying Brook Lopez can’t be good at defense because the nets were a terrible defensive team is tantamount to saying Derrick Rose can’t be good at offense because the bulls were a terrible offensive team.
Pat Riley is the devil.
I can see what you're saying.
Maybe I was a bit off base in my interpretation, but still, YaoPau is discounting Marc Gasol and giving praise to Brook Lopez based on tools, which is just as vague in my opinion. Where as it seemed in Fundamentallysound’s argument he is trying to promote Gasol on account of everyone else’s tools… so really, I think both of them are being a little bit silly.
For me it was more that the defenders Lopez was working with (particularly on the wing)
have much better defensive reputations than what Gasol got.
OJ Mayo’s an average defender, Rudy Gay is pretty meh on that end, and Mike Conley is no great shakes either. Z-Bo has never ever been interested in D.
Lopez had Devin Harris (who has been a great defensive PG in the past), Courtney Lee (a guy who’s main value is his defense), and Terrence Williams (again a guy who is known as a defensive guy). Josh Boone is the same story, all the guy does is defend and rebound. Yi was really the only guy who didn’t have a reputation as a defender, at all.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 7:34 AM CDT up reply actions
This is all to say my analysis wasn't based on tools as much as it was the respective
reputations of the other guys on the team that Lopez and Gasol had around them.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 7:35 AM CDT up reply actions
You could be right about Gasol's defense > Lopez's defense
I’m looking at Lopez’s on-off this year…
Nets DRating without Lopez on court: 107.4
Nets DRating with Lopez on court: 112.9
It’s hard for me to trust DX’s “terrific” scouting report given those numbers, though that hardly means anything definitive. If nothing else, that makes me feel better about Noah’s chances to make an all-star game in the next few years.
As for using overall team defense, Lopez played just 15% of all the available Nets minutes last year, Gasol 12%. To put that into perspective, DeMarre Carroll, Sam Young, Marcus Williams, Jamaal Tinsley, and Darrell Arthur combined for 20% of the Grizzlies’ minutes, and I couldn’t throw a dart and how good they are defensively combined.
That's sort a misleading way to do the percentages. The most he could possibly play
is really about 20% because that’d be literally ALL the center minutes.
The total number of minutes the team played was 82*48 + 4 * (5 min OTs) = 3956. Lopez was on the floor for 3027 of those minutes. More than 76%.
The Grizzlies as a team played 3981 minutes of game time. Gasol was on the floor for 2469 of those minutes or 62%.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions
Additionally the on/off numbers for Gasol with respect to team DRtg go:
Team DRtg ON: 108.6
Team DRtg OFF: 112.1
So with Gasol on the court they were a point per 100 below league average (which would put them between the Rockets and the Wiz), but with him off the court they turned into worst defense in the league save for the Raptors. (Sidenote: man did the Raptors suck on defense!).
I mean, it’s raw +/-, but STILL. They were much better with him on the floor on defense than not and he beasts the defensive glass.
It’s also worth noting that Gasol’s Ortg was 121 on his 17% USG whereas Brook only put up a 112 Ortg on his 23.6% USG. Using the rule of thumb that a point of usage is worth roughly a point per 100 possessions, Gasol still wins on offense AND he’s better on defense.
I mean, #2 feels too high for Marc Gasol too, but factoring in health (which dings Bogut, Yao, Nene, Noah, Bynum, Oden), I just feel like he should be up there. Now maybe the person I’m really overlooking here is Al Horford who is all kinds of awesome and puts up pretty equivalent offensive numbers to Gasol while being the superior defender to my eyes.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 4:16 PM CDT up reply actions
Read the whole discussion
All I have to show is that Gasol’s defense is probably not good enough to deserve a #2 overall ranking. I mentioned Lopez because I think it’s easy to show Lopez is likely better than Gasol, meaning Gasol gets bumped from #2.
The stats point to Lopez being better on offense, so Gasol would have to be significantly better on defense to be ranked ahead of him, and my argument is defense is hard to judge, and all you can look at are box score stats, tools, reputation, and in extreme cases team DRtg. None of those significantly favor Gasol.
I stand by my assertion that Gasol could handle a signficantly higher USG% and still be very efficient
based on how skilled he is. He just plays with a bunch of guys who shoot too much (Mayo, Gay and Z-Bo).
I understand you wanting to see him do it first to prove it, but that’s my thinking and that’s why I ranked him so high. I mean look at what he’s done with the 17% of possessions he’s used. 61.7% TS. He’s highly skilled and finishes well around the basket and can shoot. I see no reason why he couldn’t increase his scoring load with little efficiency drop with more touches. He shot 40% (46% as a rookie) on 16-23 foot jumpers, so he’s got a jumper and he makes about 70% of his shots at the rim.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 26, 2010 3:51 PM CDT up reply actions
He might be the best man-to-man defensive SF in the league
But his help defense isn’t nearly as impactful as that of Lebron, Gerald Wallace, and Kirilenko.
Pat Riley is the devil.
No way he's better that Bogut, though.
Or Lopez, imo.
by Stacey_Is_King on Aug 24, 2010 5:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Bogut was #2 on my list before I factored in injuries.
I also think Lopez is pretty overrated. If he was as good a defender as everyone seems to think he is, the Nets defense wouldn’t be nearly as terrible as it was. Especially considering he had solid backcourt defenders in T-Will, Devin Harris, Courtney Lee, etc.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 24, 2010 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions
the nets shouldnt have been that terrible period.
its not on any one guy. they just all flat out quit.
that being said id put lopez and bogut easily ahead of him
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
he's in (noah, that is)
though dwyer hasn’t ranked them 10-1 as of this moment
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS - "I tried to convince them that what they were doing was an aberration, an imbecility, a stupidity without name"
One thing I thought about the SF list
After Bron, Durant and Melo, the rest of the top ten are almost a wash. None of those guys can solely lead a serious contender. Paul Pierce maybe had the strongest case two years ago, but he still needed KG and Ray Allen.
Melo belongs more with the rest of that group than with LBJ and KD. He's certainly far closer to Pierce than he is to those 2
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
by snley on Aug 24, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
completely agree there
I think KD points that out too. Melo is not on the LeBron/Durant tier just because he’s next-best
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I'm more interested in where Boozer lands
does he project Rose as a bigger PnR gunner than Williams was, or the same/less but less partners to run it with than in Utah? Does he project Boozer to get better or worse on a team where he’s “the man”? Does he think he’s going to fall apart with age just yet or does he have a couple season in him? Does he think Thibs is going to make him a better defender, thereby making his game a lot more complete?
that’s what I look forward to. Hopefully it won’t be a bunch of joshing around like it, yknow, will be.
A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde
Iggy is better than Granger or Deng or Pierce
I think it’s all kind of tangled up
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 24, 2010 7:51 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Dwyer figures Doug Collins will let Iggy dominate the ball
so he’ll have the better season.
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 24, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
That just means he'll shoot more, that'll turn out well.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 24, 2010 12:23 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i think Collins is going to give the ball to Turner
but based on what KD wrote, I don’t see a happy fit between Turner, Iggy, Williams and Holiday having trouble playing together.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 24, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions
Further evidence of Deng's contributions from By the Horns
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
Did anyone else notice that Lebron was getting burned in at least 7 possibly 8 of the photos???
LeBron hate much???? Not that I mind. LOL
"Rest satisified with doing well and leave others to talk of you as they please"
by Bigred15 on Aug 24, 2010 10:17 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
It's been a running gag for the series to put one player in as many photos as possible
Ty Lawson was used for the PGs and OJ May for the SGs.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
or all of the photos
For the SG’s OJ Mayo was being burned by OJ Mayo
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Hoopsworld ranks the Top 5 Small Forwards in the NBA
Hoopsworld.com Top 5 Small Forwards in the NBA
1) LeBron James – Miami HEAT:
2) Kevin Durant – Oklahoma City Thunder:
3) Carmelo Anthony – Denver Nuggets:
4) Danny Granger – Indiana Pacers:
5) Gerald Wallace – Charlotte Bobcats:
Just Missed the Cut:
Paul Pierce – Boston Celtics:
Andre Iguodala – Philadelphia 76ers:
Rudy Gay – Memphis Grizzlies:
Honorable Mention:
Ron Artest, Caron Butler, Trevor Ariza, Tayshaun Prince, Hedo Turkoglu
Sounds about right
They may be stretching the Prince selection but I wouldn’t argue it.
Yeah but it worked!
Deng's not in the Top 15
Thta’s stupid.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Honestly I look at that list
and outside of Tashun Prince and perhaps Ariza, I think I would take anyone of the other SFs listed.
Yeah but it worked!
Really?
Hedo over Deng?
Caron Butler over Deng?
Those guys were both horrible and I could name at least a few guys inferior to Deng and superior to them.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 24, 2010 11:27 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Don't forget that Dils is dumb and/or irrational against Deng.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
and you are what? dumb and/or irrational against anything you dont agree with?
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
by sin on Aug 25, 2010 12:48 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Exactly.
Come on Tyger you can do better. We got all season to debate this stuff so you might as well get use to it and have something better to add to the conversation. If not then…oh well.
Yeah but it worked!
hate aside
I must agree with Poloplaya14.
Hedo and Butler over Deng? Rly?
As I mentioned before: Iggy, Deng and Gay are too close to rank. The others are not in the same league
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 25, 2010 1:06 PM CDT up reply actions
You're right. And I have. And so have many others.
This debate was held not too long. Despite the mountains of evidence-objective and subjective alike-you continue to think Luol Deng is a bad player.
It’s true that reasonable minds can differ about some things, but that Deng is not a Top 15 SF is not one of them. Only unreasonable, irrational or just plain dumb people would think Luol Deng is not really good at what he does.
There’s literally nothing new that has happened since two or three weeks ago when this last “discussion” was held. He was a really good player then, and you had an irrational or illogical reason for disliking Deng as a SF for the Bulls. You still do. He’s still good. You’re still wrong.
Thus, I gave the only response that seemed appropriate. I believe you are the one who needs to find something better to add to the conversation. All you said is that you would take other players over him. That’s not anything new from your repeated reasons for disliking him for however long you have.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Aug 25, 2010 7:37 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
The fact that you spent 3 pararagraphs to
explain why you feel the need to call other people stupid or dumb for their opinion about sports is enough evidence to tell me who the stupid person is. Besides that there are enough one liners and silly comments of no substance on this fanshot alone by you to prove that point.
It’s a sports blog site not a bill waiting for approval through congress. It’s not that deep that you have to feel strong enough about it to call someone names. Grow up. Calling people names that you wouldn’t call them to their face while you’re eating graham crackers in your moms basement isn’t cool and there’s no prize given for it other than a green highlight that’s given at least 3 other people here thought it was funny. It’s just stupid. Let others who want to argue the value of Luol Deng for the millionth time while waiting for the season to start have their fun.
Yeah but it worked!
by Dils on Aug 25, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
You spent two paragraphs telling me why it's not a big deal.
That’s less than three?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
But you're not arguing!
It’s just contradiction!
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
by Prevenge on Aug 27, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
see, now THIS is a good tyger bite
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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:30 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, that's pretty bad
in conclusion: poopsworld.
Though I was reminded of Prince making Luol his, um, beyotch in the 2007 playoffs.
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"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 25, 2010 9:45 AM CDT up reply actions
I think Hedo and the type of SF he is
that would fit perfectly on this Bulls team. I a playmaker at SF would do wonders for this team. Or at least a guy that can dribble and pass/shoot out of double teams.
Yeah but it worked!
OTOH leaving Noah as the only good defender when Korver subs in for Brewer is pretty ridiculous.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Anyone notice
LeBron in every pic getting scored on? Cool.
You must have me confused with someone else, I have never been to Chicago.
[whispers] I sexually assaulted Scottie Pippen in 1997.
I think the number one thing everyone needs to do is to look at everyone on an even playing field
Forget injury history and forget contracts.
When healthy and playing on an even dollar, Deng can arguably be a top 5 SF in the game.
I think you can make the argument that he’s more productive than Pierce at this stage in their careers.
I think Granger and Iggy have benefited from being number one options on bad teams
My top 5 would be
James
Durant
Melo
Wallace
Deng.
by Option27 on Aug 25, 2010 1:52 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Deng doesn't have the skill set or athleticism to be a number one option, even on a bad team. That's what makes him worse than Granger and Iggy.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 3:19 PM CDT up reply actions
can he be a number one option though?
i dont think he can.
we’ve all seen how well he dribbles to create his own shots. its a pain to watch.
i guarantee you deng isnt getting 20+ if hes the go to guy on your team.
from now on instead of saying "go fuck yourself" im gunna just say "go join the heat"
neither does Iggy
He kind of was number 1 and couldn’t do it. Granger can… on offense. Not great on D
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 27, 2010 7:55 AM CDT up reply actions
Wait a minute...
Luol Deng can average 27 and 10 if he was the number one option? If that’s the case then I have just one question… Why isn’t he the number one option then? I mean shame on the Bulls for holding back what would be the #4 scorer in the league, same ppg as that guy named Kobe at 27ppg no less! Looks like the Bulls were right not to trade Deng for Kobe considering Deng is younger and putting up 27 and 10, the Bulls would of been robbed by trading the better player.
It’s that type of projection of Deng that drives me nuts. “Well he would be better if they ran the offense through him” or “Well if he wasn’t injured he’d be doing this and that”. Fact is that he is injury prone and he isn’t a number one option because he can’t be. Hell Deng as your number 2 option is just good enough to get you a low seed in the first round for a playoff series that he more times than not won’t be available to play in. He’s right where he needs to be now on this team, a 3rd scoring option and the 4th best player on this roster.
Yeah but it worked!
I meant if he was the number one option on a really horrible team like the Pacers or Philli is
Actually, 27 is a bit high but I think he could average plus 20 and 10 if the team was his.
But as I type this, it is hard seeing Lu getting his own shot off all the time.
He thrives on being the number 2 option.
After reading everything I just wrote, I just realized how idiotic I’m being at the moment.
Bash away
Deng is an opportunistic scorer who cuts well to the basket when people turn their heads and makes lots of long twos that teams allow him to take because it's a bad shot
from an eFG% perspective (it’s the worst, actually). There are only so many of those points available in a given game. That’s why his inability to create his own shot puts a ceiling on what he can do offensively. All that said, he’s still quite good and people who think he’s not are plain ol’ dumb or just dislike the guy.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 7:49 PM CDT up reply actions
Of course, he's a very good NBA level player. He can do that occasionally, but more often than not his dribbling skills leave a lot to be desired.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 8:06 PM CDT up reply actions
Making the point even more concrete, even offensive zeros like Thabo have occasionally made the spectacular play or two.
Like this at :28 or this.
The Chicago Bulls hate shooting ability.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 25, 2010 8:14 PM CDT up reply actions
Interesting theory
Not sure if I buy it though. When he ends up driving to the hoop, that makes sense, but part of being the no. 1 option is firing more long jumpers, where he’d be in less of a position to get his own rebound. I wonder if anyone’s ever done a statistical analysis of whether players are more likely to rebound their own miss or somebody else’s.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 26, 2010 12:16 AM CDT up reply actions
Breakthrough season for Luol Deng?
IMO, I think this season could be a breakout season for Luol Deng. With Ronnie Brewer as the Bulls starting 2 gaurd, it is vital that Deng is healthy and is able to hit his perimeter shots at a high percentage this season. Deng will get plenty of opportunities on the perimeter due to the opposition’s concern for Boozer’s interior scoring and Rose’s penetration to the basket. I also expect more offensive rebounding from Boozer and Noah which will also lead to kick outs to open shooters like Deng.
IMHO, Deng has an opportunity to become a top 5 small forward this season with his offense and defense. If Deng does well and the Bulls are at or near the top of the East standings, Deng could also end up being an all-star this season. Lets hope for the best!
Deng is really good but I don’t see him becoming an All-star. At best he does 20/8 which is borderline All-star stats considering the fact you know Bron is going to the All-star starter at SF for the next 8-10 years barring injury. Unless Deng really upgrades his post ability, greatly improves his handles or becomes a true 3pt bomber, his ceiling is limited
I'll take near All Star performance out of what could be the fourth best player on the team
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
by snley on Aug 26, 2010 10:28 AM CDT up reply actions 3 recs












