The Bulls offseason: small-time, but smart
I was hoping that some progress in Rudy Fernandez trade talks, or anything, would pop up over the past few days. Nothing new on that front, but we were given a solid gift today by ShamSports who published his figures for the Bulls salaries, including new signees Boozer, Korver, Brewer, Watson, Asik, and Thomas.
There's a lot to like about these official (or as official as they get, anyway) numbers. Of Korver, Brewer, and Watson's 3-year deals, only Korver has any guaranteed money that third season and it's for a measly $500k. In a marketplace that often overspends for mid-level (often literally using the full 'mid-level') rotation players the Bulls secured these players in very reasonable contracts that should be moveable especially in the year before their waive-by date. This not only differs from other teams behaviors around the league this offseason, but from the Bulls of a few years ago that would give Andres Nocioni a 6 year deal.
That part I like.
The Boozer contract is a bit higher than some had reported ($75m total, and that $16.8m in 2014-15 will likely be ugly), but that's the price of getting higher-level talent. And I think it's that premium cost of higher talent that had the Bulls follow the Boozer acquisition with forfeiting the opportunity to acquire another major piece when it came to plotting out their offseason.
Looking at the way these deals are structured: nearly all of the contracts are front-loaded in that first season. The Bulls have done this before with the Nocioni and Hinrich deals (and it sort of backfired when dealing with the luxury tax) but it's very curious that they'd do so in an offseason where they were trying to be as far under the cap as possible. An opportunity that they'd not only tanked a season-plus to secure, but one they likely won't see again anytime soon with Joakim Noah and Derrick Rose up for heavy raises starting next year.
And those raises mean everything when speculating on the Bulls logic in the way they set up these contracts. After failing at any of the top three big gets, they snatched up Boozer and structured their remaining salaries so they could better afford to pay Rose and Noah in the future. While it's certainly debateable that another major strike could've been had this offseason anyway, the Bulls didn't even give themselves a chance to do so, as I think they decided before even exploring all options that they weren't going to add another major-salaried player to go with Boozer, Deng, Rose and Noah.
So that's why they front-load and forfeited present flexibility to achieve 'long-term' flexibility, a strategy that has no guarantee to acquire more talent in the future, but merely helps them keep the talent they have. Forget another chance at cap space, by the time Rose and Noah are paid the Bulls will be back bumping up against the tax.
And while it's a bit depressing (I know, eventually one has to lower expectations...) that the Bulls effectively threw up their hands at the offseason after 'the decision', I'll give them credit: when choosing the path they did, they executed it the right way. They didn't over-commit to middling players in a way that completely shuts them out if a chance does drop in their lap. The contracts they've signed may not be as enticing in terms of future flexibility as getting a big expiring deal (or using that cap space in trades to take on players AND assets for future use), but they're deals that are definitely useable. And the players themselves (they're more than just walking contracts, you animals!) are young and good fits as well.
They better be, becuase we have to hope that this team really does coalesce with a hard-working roster and a demanding coach to overachieve. If not, they'll never become 'worthy' of paying the tax for, and if not, the money spent now will just be re-directed to Rose and Noah, and they'll never have enough talent to get over that hump into the truly elite teams of the league. A bit of a shame that overachievement is a necessity, but I do think this roster has it in them, and as always: everything goes out the window if Rose reaches the absolute pinnacle of stardom.
200 comments
|
2 recs |
Do you like this story?
Comments
derrick rose alone will be worth paying the tax for soon
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
that's the thing, they wouldn't have to
did you read it?
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2010 7:40 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
i mean in terms of bringing another star because rose will have us at a championship level on his own
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
by sin on Aug 2, 2010 8:02 PM CDT up reply actions
Hopefully Rose has a little bit of fight in him
If he achieves a certain level of stardom and becomes upset with the status quo, and management not being willing to go all out, maybe he’ll start making demands. That’s the one thing this team has been missing, a superstar that can make the org do things out of fear that they might lose him.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 2, 2010 8:55 PM CDT up reply actions
Maybe it's just me...
but it seems like the days of an “expiring contract” having significant value have passed. It seems like teams have begun following the “if-you’re-bad,-get-rid-of-everything-and-hope-for-a-FA” plan, not only for 2010 but years beyond, and there are so many teams with either a) cap space they can’t even use (see: Clippers, Nets, Knicks; even if Wade, James, and Bosh all signed with different teams, there’d still be teams who’d lose out on the max FAs and need to spend their cap on something; b) trade exceptions all over the place (wasn’t Amare the only FA this year to switch teams without a sign-and-trade? It seems like that’s just the way business is done nowadays); c) no care about adding salary in the short term even when over the tax (lakers, magic, etc); or even d) teams like the thunder have been the past few years, who have kept cap space open and absorbed riff-raff and been paid to do so in picks or Eric Maynor.
That last paragraph turned into a monster, but it sure seems like expiring contracts are worth far less than they were in ‘08. What happened to Eric Dampier? Why aren’t people talking about Kirilienko’s expiring as an asset like Sczerbiak’s was? And that’s all ignoring the specter of a new CBA being put into place—if we’re going to have a new system of contracts put in place in 2011, it makes little sense to plan on having large expiring contracts as assets in 2013.
by msquared10 on Aug 2, 2010 7:40 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
well I meant more to trade for expiring contracts to use in 2011
but you’re correct that they’re less useful now with so many fat trade exceptions around the league now.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2010 7:42 PM CDT up reply actions
"achieve long-term flexibility"
is Arabic for “don’t pay the tax, don’t field a really good team, just give them enough hope so they keep buying tickets.”
Works great! For them.
always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST
that's the extremely cynical way to put it, but yup.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 2, 2010 7:41 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Seriously though, has a point guard ever been THE guy on a championship team?
Just asking…
always a great contribution.
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Feb 17, 2009 8:33 AM PST
Isaiah Thomas says hello
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 2, 2010 8:21 PM CDT up reply actions
yep that too
some would say Billups was the best for the Pistons too
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 2, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
You can make a case that Rose has the potential to be better than prime Allen Iverson
and his team went to the Finals. I think the Bulls are better than that team was. But that team didn’t have a juggernaut such as Miami is in their time.
Actually I think most of all we got unlucky. Had LeBron picked any other team we would be contending. But Miami just got too powerful.
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 2, 2010 8:23 PM CDT up reply actions
Miami is one injury away
Their bench sucks, and they have little depth.
The point is it isn’t a foregone conclusion that they’re going to win it all.
by 72-10 on Aug 3, 2010 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
This argument is dumb.
Every team in the league is one injury away and no team in the league, save for the Lakers, is better equipped to deal with an injury to one of its superstars.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 8:34 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
how are they better equipped?
If lebron, bosh, or wade goes down, how does one of the other 3 fill that void? I would say with them the drop-off between starter and backup will be the biggest in the league (for their positions obviously).
Because they have two other stars to pickup the slack. Duh.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 8:40 AM CDT up reply actions
i can see the other two picking up the slack in scoring
but what about the rest of the game? defense? rebounding?
Dwyane Wade dragged a cast of scrubs to 47 wins last year. If LeBron goes down, it’s Wade and Bosh plus scrubs. They will be able to handle it for long enough to tread water until LeBron goes down. The same principle applies if Wade goes down, as LeBron is better than Wade. And if Bosh goes down? Who cares? You still have two of the best five players in the league. Now, if one of them has a season ending injury that would dash their titles hopes, probably, but they would still be a very formidable team and tough out.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 1:33 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
“tread water until LeBron comes back”*
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 1:34 PM CDT up reply actions
I'm not trying to say that one injury will make them a lottery team
Just that the difference between one of them and their backup is bigger than the difference between other starters and their backups
Mike Miller is HUGE for them
Sure he isn’t his Grizzlies former self, but he’s huge. That’s a versatile 2-3 who rebounds and stretches the floor, a huge upgrade over QRich in every facet of the game….
And I think he’ll help stomach a drop shoudl LBJ or Wade go down to injury for a sig time….
Having Wade + Bosh is better than anything Wade’s ever worked with (Shaq in Miami was a far cry from the 1999-2003 Shaq)…..
Having Lebron + Bosh is better than Lebron’s ever had to play with by quite a leap.
Having Lebron + Wade on paper is the best tandem in NBA history at one time on the same team….as I’d argue those are the leagues top 2 current talents/stars….
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
Jordan/Pippen was better off the top of my head.
Kareem/Magic
Kobe/Shaq
I’d argue that you are overvaluing wing players. (Though I’ll agree that Lebron may be top two in the league when it comes to winning in the playoffs).
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
I echo that comment
that wing players are often overvalued. Granted, the only way the Heat become a lottery team is if at least 2 of the big 3 goes down for most of the season. Even then, it’s possible that the remaining healthy guy drags the Heat to the playoffs (except of course Bosh because he would just give up). The interesting storyline will be to see how their interior defense stands up, and in that sense I’m really excited to actually see a Bulls post presence.
The C spot
Is their only concern….and it’s a big concern
Lebron and Wade are 1,2,3’s (and Lebron can play some 4). Bosh can play some 5 I suppose, but he’ll get abused by Howard…..
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
Maybe......
Maybe…..
Wade/Lebron definitely in that convo.
Pipp at his best was a top 5 player, Lebron is pretty much a known #1, and Wade is #2-4 depending on your views of Kobe and if Durant takes another leap.
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
Also add in taht
Kareem was much better in Milwaukee.
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
I'd add that while
Scottie is my all time favorite player, and was a defensive ace, perhaps best wing defender of all time (there I said it)….
But Wade is more all around gifted.
I don’t think Lebron is MJ, but his talent isn’t far off, and he’s more explosive given the ….cough…cough…roids….weight lifting he’s been doing for longer and his size.
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
You're overvaluing the contributions of both Pippen and Kobe
Kareem was past his peak and Magic still shy of his at their best years together. West/Baylor is probably the closest pairing in NBA history. Even then, neither was clearly the best player, much less clearly the second best, the way LeBron and Wade are. I would think it’s safe to say we haven’t seen a pairing in sports like this since Ruth/Gehrig.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
Didn't that Lakers team have
Chamberlain, West and Baylor?
Anyway, the best tandems in recent NBA history are either Shaq/Kobe or Jordan/Pippen. Overvaluing Kobe? In the 3 championship years he averaged 28ppg, 25 pgg, and 30ppg. In the last 2 championship years Shaq and Kobe were the top 2 players in the NBA.
Regarding the Bulls – Jordan was without a doubt the best player when he was in the league with the Bulls. I think Pippen was a sure fire top 5 guy as well. Lets see how Bron and Wade play together, and how well Wade body holds up, before we anoint them the best combo in NBA history.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 4, 2010 10:21 AM CDT up reply actions
By the time Wilt got to the Lakers Baylor had already blown out his knee
and was a shell of his former self. Plus, Wilt and West were both on the downside of their careers.
That said, you’re right, we should see how they work together before anointing them anything.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
Your numbers are off.
As is your conclusion. Duncan was vastly better than Kobe in 2002. I think Nowitski, McGrady and Garnett were, too. I think an argument can be made for others, too. In 2001, Vince Carter, McGrady, David Robinson, Tim Duncan, Karl Malone and Kevin Garnett were all definitely better than Bryant. And you’re right that in 2000, he definitely wasn’t the 2nd best.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
i'll give you tim duncan and maybe Garnett
but I wouldn’t take Vince Carter or McGrady over Kobe in any year. Playing as the complete focal point of their offense they had a much greater chance to put up numbers. Not to mention he is a vastly better defender than both. David Robinson and Malone were on the downside of their careers and did not bring the intangibles Kobe did (clutch scoring being the most important). Nowitki? Nah, I’ll take Kobe.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 4, 2010 11:57 AM CDT up reply actions
Being better doesn't matter who you'd take.
He wasn’t the second best player in the league. That’s all there is. What does being on the downside of a career have to do with anything? And can you really tell me that Kobe was super clutch eight years ago? Moreso than he was unclutch or something.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Aug 4, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Oh Shaq Kobe
My bad, yes they def were same league
MJ/Pipp were solid, but MJ clear #1 in the league, and Scottie was probably his best the 2 years MJ was out and the first year back….so maybe.
I can’t believe I missed Shaq/Kobe…
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
What happens if Rose gets injured?
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 3, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions
then we suck
we saw that last year. I’m just saying that the dropoff in total talent on the court at once if one of the big 3 goes down will be greater than for most other teams if they lose a starter for an extended period of time.
Even if one goes down they are still more talented
than the team Wade dragged to the playoffs the last couple of years. And if Bosh is the one hurt it may not even matter.
by Scotter on Aug 3, 2010 1:27 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I'm not saying they'll suck so bad they miss the playoffs
I just think their backups are more significantly worse than them, than other backups are to their respective starters, so they will suffer more by injury. It might only mean they win by 5 ppg instead of 15 or something, I dunno.
ie, losing a quarter when you have 3 quarters is a bigger drop in money than losing a dime when you have 3 dimes.
It doesn't work that way. They will drop off from blowing just about everyone out
to simply beating most teams, but it won’t effect their win-loss record THAT much, whereas with most other teams, their margin for error is much smaller because they don’t have the same top level talent. If one of their talents goes down, they’re boned. See: Bulls without Rose.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions
i agree, but i wonder about the playoffs
Do they still beat orlando or LA with only a big 2?
by SidM on Aug 3, 2010 7:04 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
I think this argument is solid, but not for what you think.
It’s not so much the injury to the big three but an injury to big z or whoever their fifth starter is that I think will tank them,
For example, you could argue that losing Perkins is what made the Celtics lose the championship.
That team
Wasn’t better than 7th in that year’s West. The EAST was terrible that year and the 76ers struggled to make it out of the East.
A.I. is perhapst he most overrated player of the last 15 years….selfish, me first, volume shooter, bad defensive player who took too many risks to pad his D stats.
When he was on he was electric, but he was often way off and wouldn’t stop shooting.
He was all star good, yes, but hardly a real superstar.
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
AI is one of the best pure shooters of all time,
Rose will never sniff that title, sorry.
Oz on Swish HR celeb: "That's the way he is. Good for him, enjoy it. I wish he could do it for me, he was a very horseshit player for me.''
AI is not a pure shooter
He is a 42.5% career shooter and 31% behind the arc. Even worse? 78% from the line.
He is an aggressive offensive player that found ways to score and put up nice numbers and an overall gifted player. But pure shooter he is not.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 3, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
Allen Iverson was one of the best pure shooters of all time?
That’s 100% false.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 3, 2010 10:05 PM CDT up reply actions
oh i dont know MAGIC JOHNSON??????
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
by sin on Aug 2, 2010 8:28 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Hi!
![]()
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 2, 2010 8:32 PM CDT up reply actions 10 recs
Theres not much precedent for pgs
of Rose’s style and caliber so I think you can’t just label Rose a pg.
by jubaby on Aug 3, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
If players like Brewer and Watson can flourish in this system
Those are the players that would eventually become attractive assets. Young and cheap players on short deals can be latched onto a good player who is overpaid (Deng).
I’m hoping for a nice run in year 1 or 2 where Brewer contributes heavily then maybe attach him and Deng together in a trade to get us someone to get us over the top.
And if Rudy is in the mix as well during that time, even better
by Option27 on Aug 2, 2010 7:48 PM CDT via mobile reply actions 1 recs
Taj already has that going for him
by Option27 on Aug 2, 2010 7:49 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
Nice post
I think the Bulls did well. As I said above Miami just got too big. They had things we could not compete with (3my-egos friendship, bikinis, weather, lowest taxes, money for 3FA and so on).
That said I wish the Bulls had worked on a trade for SG but they can still do that in february. Let’s see
Look, yes with Miami with will be difficult. But they will not win every time. It's far from impossible for the Bulls to win a series against them
I’m not saying it’’s eazy neither.
Jordan didn’t win every time.
I still disagree with the "small-time" label
While I wish they had given themselves a chance to do something big after Boozer, how do we know that they didn’t explore their options? Especially after going all in for LeBron, Wade, and Bosh.
I believe re-signing Gordon would have been small-time. Holding onto Hinrich would have been small-time.
I don’t think there was anything small time about the moves they made. They just got unlucky that LeBron decided to remove himself from NBA competition.
by dbrown25 on Aug 2, 2010 10:52 PM CDT reply actions 3 recs
anytime you start to feel yourself doubting just remind yourself miracles DO happen
http://www.blogabull.com/2010/7/27/1591029/golden-state-has-signed-free-agent
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
that's not a miracle
that’s just dumb management
by JustAnotherFan on Aug 3, 2010 7:43 AM CDT up reply actions
it's a miracle for us
if that didn’t happen, what were the odds of him being our 12th or 13th? Any chance is too high for me
This, in a sense, is why I'm glad they didn't go big.
Melo would have ruined everything positive done this off-season.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
You want to elaborate?
I would rather have Melo than any combination of players we got. I’ll put it this way:
Melo > Brewer+Korver+Watson+Asik+Thomas
Carmelo Anthony is fabulously overrated. He does exactly one thing well and that is to score. Even then, his TS% is only 54.4% for his career.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 8:38 AM CDT up reply actions
I'd still take him
Tyger’s been a bit hyperbolic with the ‘ruining’
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 9:19 AM CDT up reply actions 6 recs
Of course you take him, but you understand that he’s not THAT great and will need a lot of help to win big. Honestly, when you factor in his iffy to bad defense, how much of a ball stopper he is, and how he’s only average in his scoring efficiency (which, I know, is still impressive given how great the volume is), he’s really not THAT much better than Deng. He’s better, but it’s not by nearly as much as the perception. The difference between LeBron and Carmelo is much greater than the difference between Carmelo and Deng.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions
If I said "ruin", that was the wrong word.
I meant “make worse”.
In a vacuum, Carmelo is a better scorer than Deng. Obviously. But anthony is one of the guys I think all the high-volume, moderately efficient cliches apply to. There’s a reason you’d be hard-pressed to find any statistical evidence that Anthony is that much better than Deng, if at all. And certainly not the difference in the looming contract extension/re-signing.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
The way to put I guess is that
Anthony both raises the floor and lowers the ceiling of the team. He’lll help the team win 50 games because there are a lot of ways to win 50 games that don’t involve a team operating at peak efficiency. But he makes it harder to become a team that wins in the high 50s and low 60s. He’s not going to be able a team a strong championship contender on his own.
It’s not that different from Kobe Bryant needing to be paired with a more efficient scorer, whether it is Shaq or Pau Gasol because Bryant. And Bryant is a slightly more efficient scorer than Anthony, and a better defender and creator for his teammates.
If the Bulls were in a position to add Anthony at little to no cost it would be one thing. If the Bulls have to give up good players to get Anthony than it’s likely to be a trade that’s close to reshuffling the chairs on deck.
And I guess....
…as I’m looking at it, he’s only available because of his looming extension. If they acquired him, it would probably spell the end of Noah. Which would end up being Deng + Noah for Anthony. That’s not even close to a good deal.
Even if it’s just Deng for Anthony, I just don’t see the advantage of adding $5 million more per year and an extra year or two to the payroll.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
And in general I don't like trying to build around
SFs unless they basically transcend their position with passing ability.
NBA history to this point has been favorable to the high volume scoring SF.
by Scotter on Aug 3, 2010 11:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
yeah, he could be the right guy if we're going 5-strong to win a title
maybe the rest of his game rounds out as he matures, I also think there is a premium in getting someone like Anthony who can use up tough iso posessions in the playoffs and still score. B-R did a neat concept of stripping out offensive performance (I’m not well versed in the actual metric they used there) by the caliber of defense faced, and Anthony was top-10 against the top-3rd of defenses (don’t look if you don’t want to be depressed about the Heat). That’s not a quality in Deng’s future or many other players no matter their TS%.
But if we’re essentially trading Deng-for-Carmelo, and still have a fairly big hole at SG, it’s probably not enough to get to the truly elite teams. Not that I wouldn’t still do so because even a slight improvement is still improvement, and it’s not as if Deng makes that much less than Carmelo. But assuming it’d take even more pieces to get such a swap done, then it starts to get in the question of why bother.
I guess we’re at the point where I’m trying to keep Carmelo for being so overrated he’s underrated. ;-)
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 11:12 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
what is the greatest point differential in league history?
the Heat may beat it by 3 to 4 points
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 PM CDT up reply actions
the highest i found was 12.3 per game by the 71-72 Lakers
I can see the Heat being at 14 to 15 points per game. The Heat will blow out good teams.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions
They won't defend nearly well enough to beat people by an average of 14 points per game.
Thye have exactly one good interior defender (Haslem) and he’s undersized.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 12:18 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
i don't know
people keep saying that. Wade and Bosh aren’t bad defenders. Bosh should be better if he doesn’t have to take the most physical match up every night. James is a great defender. For the people who disagree, look at what Paul Pierce did against him in the playoffs. Chalmers is a pretty strong defender. The only thing the Heat lack in my opinion is shot blocking. They may also be a team that gives up offensive rebounds (go Bulls). But the OKC Thunder had a similar profile and led the league in FG% defense last year. I think the Heat will have a top 10 defense next season.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 12:22 PM CDT up reply actions
I’m of the mind that they will have a historically great offense and a pretty average defense, basically they will be the Bizarro Celtics from 2008.
I think Wade’s a bad team defender because he roams so much. I think Bosh is really, really overrated on defense. He gets overpowered by everyone. I also think you build defenses from the inside out. Most great defenses are anchored by a fantastic big man protecting the paint. The Heat aren’t going to have that.
On the other hand, with James having less to do on offense he could become an even bigger and scarier monster on defense. Crap, now I’m depressed.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 12:37 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Agreed
They’ll probably be the best offensive team ever, but hopefully there’s something to that “defense wins championships” cliche.
Pat Riley is the devil.
what is everybody talking about?
melo shits on deng, how in the world can you say that you wouldnt swap the two?
Actually read what they're talking about
and you wouldn’t need to ask that question
by runningman on Aug 3, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Don't be snappy
Even if it’s just Deng for Anthony, I just don’t see the advantage of adding $5 million more per year and an extra year or two to the payroll.
Before everybody was complaining about how we don’t have enough scorers who can create themselves. While Anthony can’t carry a team by himself, he certainly creates and would take pressure off of Derrick. With him, you wouldn’t need an elite SG, as I think Brewer would be a fine defensive complement who can still hit short-mid range shots.
Brewer can't shoot.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 3, 2010 2:01 PM CDT up reply actions
OK whatever
my point is that he doesn’t need to be a shooter. That said, he is not offensively retarded.
No Bull Fault.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
i agree that I wouldn't trade key pieces for Carmelo
namely Rose, Noah and Boozer. It would be just reshuffling the deck.
But I think you guys are underestimating the value that placing 2 great scorers on the same team will have on each players overall efficiency. Iverson and Melo each recorded the highest TS% of their careers playing with one another. I can see something similar happening for Rose if he doesn’t have an entire defense keyed in to stop him every night. That Iverson / Melo combo didn’t work, because Iverson isn’t a point guard and that team didn’t play defense. But I see Rose as more of a Billups/Iverson mix. And if you fill in the right pieces around them, you could make it work.
I’d rather have Melo did Deng, but I wouldn’t give up any of the Bulls top 3 players to get Melo. I think he significantly increases the ceiling of your team, and if it doesn’t work out, its not like the 25 year old guy scoring 28 ppg isn’t going to have value in 2 or 3 years.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions
Anthony isn't a great scorer, by any metric.
Your premises are False.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
even in your analysis
you are comparing him to multiple all stars. By your own measure – he is at least a top 10 NBA scorer.
and I’d put him ahead of Kevin Martin based on volume, Danny Granger based on consistency, and Roy based on his ability to perform in the clutch and against the best defenses. Every team he has played for has been a very good offensive team with his being the #1 high usage option. If you want to quibble over semantics, go ahead, but you haven’t changed my perception of Anthony. He is one of the elite scorers in the NBA. Of those high volume scorers you listed he gets to the line as well as anyone, he grabs as many offensive boards as anyone, he shoots a great percentage from the line, and once in a while knocks down a 3.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 12:03 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
I compared him there because those are name guys go....
…if you’d read through, you’d notice that there are a LOT of players ahead of him.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Scotter, wouldn't Boozer
be the efficient scorer that would pair up with Anthony? Not to mention Rose’s improving efficiency and Noah’s sudden transformation into Wilt Chamberlain. Just kidding about the latter, but still.
He needs the ball to score.
He scored 1.29 pts per FGA last year, which isn’t horrible but isn’t that great.* The Bulls have Boozer and Rose, so we’d first have to take away about 5 shots from Anthony, unless you want him taking shots from those guys (you don’t). Now he’s a 21.5 ppg scorer. As he really doesn’t do anything else, that puts him in a slightly higher category than Ben Gordon. That’s good but nothing special.
James – 1.48
Durant – 1.48
Boozer – 1.38
Wade* – 1.37
Nowitzki – 1.35
Roy – 1.35
Anthony – 1.29
Gordon* – 1.29
Bryant – 1.25
Deng – 1.21
Rose – 1.18
People think Anthony is an elite scorer. He isn’t. He doesn’t take enough three’s and stinks at them anyway. And while he gets to the line a lot, it’s still not as many as other elite scorers like Wade or James. If he could score like those guys above, and still didn’t do anything else, something could at least be justified. But he’s not that great of a scorer. He just takes a lot of shots. You’d have to convince me he could do something other than score to justify letting him take shots from Rose and Boozer and giving him anything near a max contract, which is what the Bulls would have to pay since he’s so overrated.
Carmelo Anythony is severely overrated while Chauncey Billups is incredibly underrated.
*(2009)
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Why would those 5 shots get taken from Boozer and Rose and not, say, Ronnie Brewer and Joakim Noah?
Plus, at the moment, you’d rather have Melo taking those shots than Rose because, overrated a scorer as he might be, Melo is still better at it than Derrick, by quite a bit when you factor in Derrick’s inability to get to the line.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 9:33 AM CDT up reply actions
I wouldn't want them taken from Noah or Brewer either.
You’d be costing yourself points. They score more points per FGA than Anthony. Teams need a volume scorer, sure. That’s Rose. They don’t need, nor even want, two. The only person that scores less efficiently (other than Deng) is Rose. So, yeah, you could take all the shots from Rose and you’d actually have a better offense. Well, maybe. Depending on how it worked with other teams.
But I think Rose still has a high-enough ceiling that I wouldn’t want him taking away shots and possibly stunting his growth. I think he can eventually score in the 1.35 pts per FGA range. I’m just not ready to believe that Rose is done getting better or more efficient or more clutch. With another 30% USG player on the team, I think it hurts him, and the team.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Why are you using points per FGA? It's a pretty inaccurate way to measure efficiency.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 10:42 AM CDT up reply actions
Basically, just because I thinking of it in context as high usage low efficienc player.
And it would be easy but crude to say “If you expected him to take X number of fewer shots, you’d lose Y.”
I could have done TS% (as I did below) or eFG% and the point would have basically been the same. Anthony uses a lot of possessions and not very efficiently, no matter how you measure that.
I haven’t read articles on it, and I agree it’s crude, but what makes it inaccurate? The very few I’ve done, it looks to correlate closely with TS%. That’s a ridiculously small sample, though. (I know it undervalues guys who draw FT’s, but what else?)
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Doesn't account for turnovers either.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions
Right, not for a lot of things. I'm not talking about "all-around offensive player".
I guess it’s whatever one calls “scoring”. I consider it “taking your own shot”. You can’t take your own shot if you turn the ball over.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
wait, Anthony has a higher point per shot average than Kobe Bryant
and is a smidgen below Wade (in 2009 for some reason, why not post 2010, he was healthy) Roy and Nowitzki, but he isn’t a great scorer.
Everyone on that list except Deng and Gordon are all-stars. Everyone listed above Carmelo has been to multiple all star games. Carmelo isn’t the greatest player. But he averages 6 rebounds and 3 assist per 36, he is one of the top clutch scorers in the game, and he gets to the line 8 times a game. If he sucks and ruins your team than 95% of the NBA sucks.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 10:22 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think most of this is to point out some realities to the people that
view Carmelo as the savior, or the idiots that would rather have Carmelo than LeBron because Carmelo is a better player.
by Scotter on Aug 3, 2010 10:39 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
lebron is the better player
But melo is the better fit for us. He’d fill pretty every need we have and just about any holes left in our team. Our team’s problem has always been offense. You bring in an ellite scorer like melo for us and its good game.
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
by sin on Aug 3, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions
He's not an elite scorer.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Yes he is.
He is also better than even Roy in late game scoring.
In Bayless I trust.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><> ><>
I think what we need is the definition of the term
If by elite scorer we mean someone who can put up 25 points a game and be responsible for carrying the offensive load, then I suppose he can be considered stuff.
Personally, I consider an elite scorer to be someone who can fill the basket seemingly with ease.
Like the way Durant had so many of those 30+ point games only only 18 or 19 shots.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 3, 2010 9:42 PM CDT up reply actions
In that case, free throws are the only thing
separating elite scorers from good ones, and I don’t think that’s where the line is drawn.
by Stacey_Is_King on Aug 3, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions
It is not just about free throws.
If a guy shoots 6 for 18 and gets to the line 10 times he is not putting up 30+ points in a game. If a guy shoots 9 for 18 makes gets to the line 10 times and hits 2 or 3 three point shots, that is an efficient game.
Durant certainly had his clunkers, but he also had plenty of games like what I just described.
by Dr. Handsome, D.D.S. on Aug 3, 2010 11:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Not true.
Westbrook gets to the line a lot but can’t fill it up. There are plenty of guys who get free throws but don’t score a crap ton efficiently.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
excellent example of the latter, sin.
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 4:42 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
As for your player comparisions, using points per shot
is basically a way of fudging of things.
It avoids dealing with Dirk’s ridiculously low turnover rate or that all of the other guys do considerably more to create shots for their teammates.
by Scotter on Aug 3, 2010 10:43 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Kobe Bryant is a very overrated scorer, too.
That is obviously a selected list and not intended to be any sort of ranking of all the players in the league. I shouldn’t have assumed that was obvious. I could have put on Noah and Brewer and countless others. The point was to show that he’s not on the level of other great scorers, but more on the level of Ben Gordon. He’s a pretty good scorer with a > 30% USG. That’s not worth the price.
In my opinion, this list more appropriately places Anthony (and Bryant) in terms of scoring efficiency. As far as “big time scorers”, he’s merely “meh”.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I almost stopped reading your arguments when you said Melo wasn't a great scorer.
I’ve definitely stopped now that you’re saying Kobe is overrated.
by pooriejay on Aug 3, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions 4 recs
Cool.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
James, Durant, Wade to start
Stoudamire might be in there, but I’d take it as “arguably” since it’s hard to discern what he will do in the future.
Probably Bosh.
Bryant, Dirk and Arenas have been there but probably aren’t right now.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
So,
Wade at #8 on your list (that you linked) is elite, but Carmelo at #10 on that same list is not elite?
And Danny Granger is elite? Is Roy?
And Kobe is not? And Monta Ellis is; sort of?
Why are you trying so hard to say Carmelo is not a good scorer? I don’t understand. Does elite mean top 3, top 5 or top 10 to you?
What are you talking about with Monta Ellis?
That list is not a list of elite players or some definitive list of rankings. I also didn’t say he was “not a good scorer”. I’ve continually said that he was. For you to not understand does show the difficult in trying to parse superlatives and the difference between good and great and elite.
First off, it’s a mis-reading of data to say that the distance between #8 and #10 is somehow the same as the distance between any other two spots. Besides, that was kind of a down year for Wade, whereas I see it as a good year for Anthony. As others have said, Anthony needs good players around him to make him better; Wade doesn’t.
And yes, I forgot Roy, which just shows the folly of doing these lists or even arguing over them.
What’s an elite scorer? I don’t know. Someone who scores a lot of points on not a lot of shots. Maybe, guys who score 1.35 points per shot attempt, rated by FTA/G, and somehow arbitrarily take into account turnover rate or usage. That would give me, in this order:
1 – James
2 – Durant
3 – Wade
4 – Bosh
5 – Stoudemire
6 – Kevin Martin
7 – Nowitzki
Just off (not in any order)
Roy
Granger
Anthony
Bryant
Arenas
Ellis
Rose
I’m pretty happy with that list. If you wanted to bump up the standards a bit, you could take off Wade, Martin and Nowitzki.
I just don’t think Anthony makes enough shots for as many as he takes. If he made two more shots per game without taking anymore, sure. That might be harsh, or silly, but it’s also the difference between Denver being the 3rd best offense in the league, and the best. He’s close, but he’s just not there, in my opinion.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
Kevin Martin is an elite scorer but Kobe and Melo are not? Arenas is in the same category right now with Rose, Kobe, Ellis, etc.? Amar'e is the 5th best scorer in the game even though he has never played without Steve Nash?
Come on now….
by pooriejay on Aug 4, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
I think his point is not total points scored
but efficiency in scoring them. Something I’ve wondered about, though, is how efficiency scales up.
For example, Steve Kerr is a ridiculous 3 point shooter, so theoretically if every possession ended with him taking a 3 point shot, that would be a best case scenario for a team (back when he played obviously). That would mean him taking a ton of shots a game. But does he have the ability to take that many? How do you measure the ability to create quality shots (good) vs just being a chucker (pargo)?
I don’t pour over stats much, so it’s quite possible there’s one out there for this already and I just don’t know it.
PER makes an adjustment to relfect that players with higher usage rates are going
to be less efficient.
Well, isn't what LeBron did last night the living embodiment of The Secret, leaving millions on the table and turning himself into a hometown villain, all for the sake of winning?
Neil Paine, basketball-reference.com
That's why I put "takes a lot of shots" in there.
Maybe Kerr can take more shots, but I think the fact that he never did should indicate that he can’t.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
You underrate kevin Martin because he doesn't play for LA or NY.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No, I really don't.
I rate him lower than Melo because I’ve seen both of them play before. Also Martin’s FG% has hovered around 42% the last 2 years and he’s averaged about as many shots as Derrick Rose in that time.
by pooriejay on Aug 4, 2010 1:40 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Right, Martin of last year wasn't better.
You’re right. Over their entire careers, he has been, though.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
hes a guy, like billups, where you really shouldnt look at
FG%.
"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."
- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson
Uh... why?
He’s a shooting guard who depends on his outside shot to score. How is that like Chauncey Billups?
Because his TS% is like 60%!
TS% >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> FG%. Martin’s better at shooting the three and getting to the line than Derrick Rose [by massive margins].
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
Because while he may go 6/15 from the field
He’ll go 2/5 from the 3-point line, and hit 9 out of 10 free throw attempts. That’s 23 points on 15 shots. That’s more important than someone who goes 7/14 with no free throws or no 3-pointers.
I’m not a big Martin fan because of health and defense, but he’s an incredible scorer.
DANIEL HUDSON SUCKS. HOWS THAT GUN BAN WORKING FOR YOU MAYOR DALLY
by Ozzie Montana on Aug 5, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions
While I do disagree with your overall assessment,
that gives a little more clarity to your speaking points. That’s the reason I asked. Some were arguing elite scorer and efficient scorers, which I think are 2 different arguments. Some fall into both categories; some neither; and some either of the 2.
There’s still bias in each evaluation with respect to how you look at that player in the system and the supporting cast for that team.
It’s hard to knock some guys who are asked to carry a heavier load. One guy who specifically sticks out (to me) is Kobe. He’s an elite scorer, who’s somewhat inefficient (for my standards) but should be more efficient due to his supporting cast. One guy on the other end of that spectrum is Durant. He’s both efficient and elite and he’s asked to carry a heavy scoring load.
I just think you’re punishing Melo somewhat. He’s more of a PF stuck on the wing. He’s not a 3-pt shooter. So if he stops shooting those 3-pt shots, his pts per attempt would increase somewhat. If he a shot a number closer to Nowitzki’s total (about 60 less 3PAs), he’d fall into that elite pt to fga range you’ve established. But his team make-up calls for him shooting to score, and they count on him for that.
Well, I'm not sure I buy that.
He’s already assisted on 9 out of 10 three’s he makes, so I’m not sure he’s just jacking shots up. He’s consistently taken about 2 3’s per game his whole career, and his shooting improved over the last three years. I don’t think there’s any statistical basis that says a guy who is an okay 3pt shooter that suddendly takes half as many is suddenly a really good 3pt shooter.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
No...
Not saying he’d be a better 3-PT shooter. I’m thinking more along the lines that if those shots were either another player’s shots or a possession where he was closer to the basket it would likely net more pts per FGA due to taking less shots, or taking a higher percentage shot or getting to the free throw line.
oh, i see
no, according to hoopdata, it wouldn’t help him unless he got to the rim. His eFG% on 3’s is better than anywhere he shoots two’s except at the rim. So, even if he just quit taking the 3’s all together, and didn’t add anything at the rim, he’d be hurting himself.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
I understand.
That list was just a list of high-volume shooters, though. The lower on the list, the worse.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
He's certainly no
Derrick Byars then LOL
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
I really hope we get melo
Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos
by chicago030 on Aug 3, 2010 4:22 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
My Dream Scenario
Get D.Rose and Noah as much playoff experience as possible these next few years, steadily pickup nice pieces to go around them, then when the Miami “Big 3” are hitting their 30’s make the big splash.
Look at the way our salaries r set up.. The offseason of 2012-2013 could potentially be another big offseason. I know I’m gonna get fried for this, but what if OKC hasn’t broken thru yet, as a small market squad, they could be ready to unload salary and KD could be pressing for a change in scenary. Yea, he was real nice about signing an extension this time but in 3 more years might not be the case. Just so happens, we’ll have an expiring contract in Luol and a big contract w/ 1-year left in Boozer.
Boozer, Deng, and some 1st round picks for KD, James Harden, and Serge Ibaka? Sounds damn nice to me.. I have been drinking tonite, so I haven’t looked up everything, just an idea LLS
Luol expiring contract
Feels weird saying that…
by rick_ross on Aug 2, 2010 11:56 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Considering that 95+% of the 2012-2013 FA class haven't yet signed the contracts set to make them free agents that year...
I think it’s a little early to speculate that far ahead.
Pat Riley is the devil.
by Poloplaya14 on Aug 3, 2010 12:11 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Derrick Rose will shot into superstardom next season.
Then all we will need is a trade for a 2nd tier star like Granger, Mayo or Roy to launch us into another a true championship contender. We are not that far off, mainly because of Rose, Noah and Boozer.
Rose 2010!!!!!
I think the Bulls had an almost conservative approach.
Or maybe it was just being cautious and realistic. They didn’t take too many risks and just went about trades and signings the right way. How much $ do they have left to spend? I am guessing we are down to our last piece (so far, this summer)? BTW, i really, really would love to see Luol playing at his potential and injury-free. I think he could be our X-factor if he is playing at or very near his best. I think we are gonna have a team that’s just full of really, really solid guys that won’t be trying anything stupid or trying to overdo things at both ends of the floor. I think we have specialists at both ends, and with Thibodeau there, defense will be as strong (hopefully stronger) as the Skiles era (short era, lol).
Somehow, Someway...Denver Star Traded to Chicago...
who no one ever thought would be traded…Jay Cutler = Carmelo sometime in the future anyone???
Agents anticipating lockout
In my usually cynical mind, the front loaded contracts were a point of negotiation for the agents. Maybe the Bulls scored some of their “bargains” by agreeing to more money in the players safe year of the contract.
I liked this post
This was a very balanced post … and I agree with pretty much everything you said. I wish we were able to swing for the fences more this year, but I’m happy with what we did get, and glad that we didn’t overpay for the minor pieces we got. I think we’re all hoping that Rose takes a very big leap this year, and that without that + Thibs’ coaching making our whole be better than the some of its parts, we’ll never have a shot against the likes of the Heat.
Good post.
by RM on Aug 3, 2010 9:49 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
When the CBA expires next year
It will be interesting to see what happens. I think the players are going to get smacked down.
thus why we haven't heard a peep about extending Noah
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 10:48 AM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Sam said they'r talking to him constantly when I e-mailed him yesterday.
I asked what that meant, since I asked about contract negotiations. Did he mean about their future plans, about numbers, have they sat down? He hasn’t replied.
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Aug 3, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Just curious......
…..after Bosh, Wade, and LBJ signed with Miami, who were the “big moves” still available for the Bulls to go after?
Boozer was the top guy available (once those 3 were off the table), and I really don’t see any other guys out there who would’ve made a huge impact.
I think, given the circumstances, the Bulls did a nice job this offseason. I think they can compete with the Heat pretty well. If Rose continues to improve, I see him being on a level with Wade in 1 or 2 years. Bosh and Boozer are roughly equivalent too. We don’t have anyone to match LBJ, but no one really does. Deng seems to do as well as anybody defending him. Our 4-12 guys are way better than Miami’s.
I’m excited for the Bulls over the next few years- should be fun to watch, and I see them making deep runs starting this year.
when did everyone decide Boozer was the 4th best player in free agency?
not that i necessarily disagree, but before free agency began, people were comparing him to Joe Johnson and saying they would rather have David Lee. Now its just a given he is the 4th best guy in free agency.
by Basketball Smurf on Aug 3, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions
Well Dirk was perhaps the 3rd best, or 4th best, but folks knew he was unlikely to leave
He’s better than Bosh but older so that could put him 4th.
I don’t know Boozer or Stat or JJ. Personally I’ve preferred Boozer the last few years, but any of those are arguable (JJ’s back to being extremely underrated seeing as he’s not dramatically overpaid again)….
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
A lot of that had to do with contracts.
People were expecting Boozer to pursue a max contract like the one that kept Joe Johnson in Atlanta. David Lee was the guy who presumably offered similar production at a much cheaper price tag. That Boozer ended up only taking two million a year more than Lee changes perception.
I'll admit to changing my mind, based on further evidence.
And I don’t think I’m an org fanboi by any stretch.
And what Scotter said, too. If Boozer getting
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
because he's ours :)
I’d have Dirk and Amare ahead of him too, but really who can argue the awesomeness that is 4th best. It’s also our seed
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions
I don't get the Amare love.
He’s an uber efficient, volume scorer but he does LITERALLY nothing else. He doesn’t pass at all (his AST% this year was below 5%!), he’s a crummy rebounder, and he doesn’t play defense, at all.
Throw in the fact that a lot of his uber efficient scoring comes off of dunks from Nash and I have a hard time understanding why people think he’s so great, besides that he is awesome to watch.
On the other hand, he is one of the most fun guys in the league to watch. Since we’re not winning a championship, it might have been fun to get Amare, because even though he’s, in my view, a lesser player than Boozer, he’s loads more fun to watch. If we’re getting bounced in the second round either way, why not get the exciting guy?
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 12:44 PM CDT up reply actions
yeah, I'd certainly be more 'excited'
if it was Amare instead of Boozer. they’re fairly even, it’s not like Boozer’s defense is great shakes either, but the rebounding is a huge difference.
Plus we needed uber efficient scoring in the worst
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 12:51 PM CDT up reply actions
Boozer's pretty efficient, too.
57.7% TS for his career and 59.9% last year (pretty eye-popping).
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 1:19 PM CDT up reply actions
Good point about the rebounding
I think that’s the reason I warmed to Boozer so much. I was one of the people that was pissed they weren’t looking at Amare more. But the more I thought about it, the Heat might have some struggles in the rebounding department, and with Noah in hand, why not add Boozer and turn rebounding into an incredible strength? Having a great rebounding team is more appealing to me than having a more efficient, and exciting Amare.
Superteams suck.
by Juiceboxjerry on Aug 3, 2010 12:57 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
The Bulls will absolutely own the glass with Deng, Boozer, and Noah all out there.
Rose is an okay rebounder, and I believe Brewer is solid in that department as well.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 1:20 PM CDT up reply actions 2 recs
Amare jumps higher
Dunks are exciting!
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
This is true.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 3, 2010 11:05 PM CDT up reply actions
When you're fairly sure you're not going to win the championship
may as well have as many mind-blowing dunks as possible
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!
by Prevenge on Aug 4, 2010 9:49 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Fact.
The Bulls will win 50 games this year and (hopefully) the Central Division for a top 3 seed.
by fundamentallysound on Aug 4, 2010 10:53 PM CDT up reply actions
it's called getting the memo
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 4, 2010 11:48 PM CDT up reply actions
Other than Bosh, Boozer was my pick for the top available big man. I don’t think Dirk was really available (and he’s gonna look old as funk in 2 years).
Boozer is better than David Lee, hands down.
If they had signed Boozer to a max deal, I definitely would’ve questioned it, but at the price the Bulls got him for, I think it’s a great signing.
We’ve been asking for a solid low-post scorer for how many years? And we now have one= win.
Posts like these make me luv BaB
All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games
So if the cap is still
$58.1M, we’d have $3.938M left to sign 2 players (we need to sign 2).
What’s the min $750K? Let’s get Lucas III in for that…..another PG, better than old man Hunter last year for us at least.
Then use the nearly $3.2M for Shaq.
I know we get KT, but I still like Shaq as a viable off the bench option. He’s not at all what he was, but still a borderline top 15-20 C in the minutes he can play…..
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
If we get another point guard, make it Acie Law
surely he earned a roster spot for his 3 awesome games last year
I'd rather have size
Over another PG, and Law will be more pricey than Lucas III….
I agree with what you are saying that Law looked decent, but there’s a reason he didn’t play and that we haven’t already brought him back…..
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
BTW, are the weirdly-structured contracts why they did all sign-and-trades?
It allows for greater fluctuation in year-to-year salaries, both up and down, correct?
In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).
Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.
by tyger1147 on Aug 3, 2010 11:54 AM CDT reply actions 1 recs
They didn’t “do all sign and trades”. They did three, one of whom was for an outgoing player. One was for Boozer, which nettered them a 2011 second (we were doing Utah a favour in getting them the TPE that landed them Jefferson). One was for Warrick, which netted the Bulls another 2011 second. And the other was for Watson, which forwarded along one of those two picks. They signed and traded for Watson so they didn’t have to go through the offer sheet process again.
by Sham-onnnnnnnnnnna on Aug 4, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions
As good as it could be considering the big 3s predetermined scenario.
Good contracts may not be the panacea they once were but they increase the liklihood of a future good deal. I also think the Bulls did well considering the reality of the big 3’s fait de complit! Nice summary!
by chgobr on Aug 3, 2010 12:28 PM CDT reply actions 1 recs
Just to be clear:
I really did like the language of your post (and my post was not meant to sound snarkified).
answer me this my friendly bulls blogger (and I mean this with respect)
We tried gettign LeBron, Wade and Bosh. I think Bulls did what they needed to do but struck out.
Amare was gone by then. No bulls fault.
Dirk or Pierce never intended to leave. No Bulls fault.
Joe Johnson stayed for the money. No Bulls fault.
Boozer we got.
So with the remaining 15Mil (at that time) what other big time free agent could we had gotten? I am at a loss. I think the Bulls then spent the money the best way they could, making the team as deep as possible. Do people want Ben gordon back for 11Mil or so or whatever his contract is per year. How do you get depth then.
I find almost nothing wrong with what management did this year with the cards they were dealt.
Well maybe we should have kept Aaron Gray and Pargo but that’s a whole different story.
by adocarbog on Aug 3, 2010 1:01 PM CDT reply actions 5 recs
No Bulls fault! No Bulls fault!
BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"
by your friendly BullsBlogger on Aug 3, 2010 1:24 PM CDT up reply actions 5 recs
make this your mantra
The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS - "I tried to convince them that what they were doing was an aberration, an imbecility, a stupidity without name"
by marionette on Aug 3, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Pargo and Gray left. No bulls fault.
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
by J Theory on Aug 3, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions 1 recs
Well we traded Gray
No Bulls fault
Devin Brown left yes Bulls fault.
2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....
Wait a sec....
We actually got something back for Gray? Paxson must be a genius (or have naked pictures of the other GM)
No Bulls fault!
"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."
- fundamentallysound
he wants monta ellis or ben gordon
someone teach me how to get Sam Smith's job when he retires
by sin on Aug 3, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions
Really!
We should have kept pargo? Fail.
Chicago Jazz > Three Am-Egos
by chicago030 on Aug 3, 2010 4:29 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions
BG's too short. No bulls fault
=)
All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games
I blame his parents
"Michael Redd's owed 18.3 million next year. He can either opt out like an idiot or opt in like a douche bag." - NittanyCub
If only BG had more time on the stretcher
Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by 













