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How the Bulls Could Keep Up

Assuming Lebron actually goes to the Heat, how do you compete with that?  I think the only possible way is to get a guy who could be a superstar, and most any cost, and hope it turns out.

Because right now, the best you can imagine for the Bulls is they'll have a big 2 that can hold their own against the Heat's big 3. If the Bulls, or any other team out there want to have a fighting chance, they're going to have to find that third guy.

And obviously, that's super difficult. Anthony Morrow, JJ Reddick, or even Josh Childress are not and never gonna be superstars. Neither is David Lee.

So now that I've gotten my salary page relatively up to date, I started looking around.

So let me suggest the only guys I can think of who might be remotely up to the challenge
1. Chris Paul. There's been speculation he could be traded, but I wouldn't hold my breath. The Hornets moved MoPete and got themselves under the luxury tax. So I think that's pretty much OBE.

2. Gilbert Arenas. Probably gettable for nothing. In fact, the Wiz would probably offer up something we'd like if they had anything. Unfortunately, he's had major knee problems, and just got out of jail. Maybe participation in the "Scared Straight" program has changed his outlook and gotten him serious, but I don't think I could bring myself to pull that trigger without several months of psychological evaluation.

And even then, while I could see Rose and Paul coexisting, I have a harder time seeing Rose and Arenas working out, although in theory they could be uber-dynamic, both attacking the basket and firing passes to Boozer. 

3. Evan Turner. A rookie who hasn't played a real NBA game, but coming out I think he's one of the top SG prospects in several years, and probably will be every bit the equal of Brandan Roy, although maybe not as good as Wade or, say, Kevin Durant.  If he's that good, why could we get him?

Because the Sixers doled out huge money to Elton Brand, and they would at least conceivably think about letting Turner go if someone cleared the decks for them.

To the Bulls, of course, Brand doesn't make a lot of sense, but he's still a very similar player to Boozer, and a guy that could be helpful. And the money won't be quite an issue to the Bulls, because they'd have their core team locked in and be competing for a title over the next several years. Hopefully.

So this idea, I think, seems at least a bit plausible to me. You get ahold of a guy who could be the third member of a Big 3 to compete with Wade/Bosh/Bron, and you give it the old college try.

Sixers send Elton Brand, Evan Turner
Bulls send Taj Gibson

1- Rose
2- Turner
3- Deng
4- Boozer, Brand
5- Noah

If the Sixers wanted, I'd also willingly swap Deng for the slightly more expensive but more athletic Andre Iguodala

Would the Sixers do this? Would you as a Bulls fan?

FanPosts are user-created posts from the BlogABull community, and are to be treated as the opinions and views of that particular user, not that of the blogger or blog community as a whole.

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I wish Arenas' problem was just the gun stuff

and not the injuries too. He really was a fantastic player and I’d love to see Rose-Arenas terrorizing teams.

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"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 10:52 AM CDT reply actions  

I think that backcourt would be really good

Arenas has a lot of baggage

In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jul 8, 2010 11:20 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

The gun stuff

isn’t even really a concern to me. He didn’t really do anything that bad. Bu the injuries are such a concern, because I do not really get the sense Arenas can recover from them. At least Boozer has gone on to have extremely productive seasons post-injury in the past.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

The gun stuff don't bother me either

it’s all those injuries

In the 8th grade Mike Ditka won his school's Science Fair with a model of a working volcano. There were 17 other working volcano's made that day, but only one named Mount Ditka.

by Lester A. Wiltfong Jr. on Jul 8, 2010 1:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

The problem with Arenas

is that you take away a problem from the Wiz, give them cap space and they can become a East monster in the future

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 8, 2010 2:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who are they going to get?

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 2:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

I've been following Arenas for a long time (huge Arizona fan)

the guy is a 2 guard. He would be an almost perfect fit next to Rose, and really, I think his loose personality would help the Bulls. I don’t think he could corrupt Rose or Noah. But the injuries and the contract – its all too much.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

A perfect fit at the 2 is simply a guy who is a plus defender and someone who can hit standstill 3s… Arenas and Rose would be the league’s worst defensive backcourt.

by C Smoove on Jul 8, 2010 7:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree C Smoove

Too bad we already traded him away to these same WIzards.

by bearsfann on Jul 9, 2010 1:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nah

Hinrich was a poor 3-point shooter.

by RM on Jul 9, 2010 2:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Umm Hinrich. psst. Had he played even just average offensively, we had a chance to beat the Cavs. hinrich was deplorable offensively since 07. He was scared to shoot towards the end

by C Smoove on Jul 10, 2010 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

if you get Arenas on the Bulls

in NBA2k10 without losing Rose-Deng-Tyrus-Noah and convert him to a full time SG the team wins multiple championships

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 9, 2010 10:51 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

if you are going to do all of that.......

why not make a call to the nuggets for carmello, offer them deng, taj, a couple of first rounders, just about anything to make them want to move him to the bulls, now that would be sick !
rose
morrow
noah
boozer
carmello
screw miami, chicago would rule !!!!!!

by IcemanBT on Jul 8, 2010 10:53 AM CDT reply actions  

Why would they want Deng if they're trying to save money?

Maybe if the Bulls offered to take back KMart? Doubt it still. I thought Carmelo was signing an extension

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 8, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

They offered the extension, but he hasn't signed it yet

I don’t see how you don’t at least call the Nuggets and inquire about Melo.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

or........

iggy for deng…..that might work.

by IcemanBT on Jul 8, 2010 10:55 AM CDT reply actions  

Those two career wise

have identical numbers, Deng better rebounder and shooter, Iggy a better athlete

by QUINTEN DALEY on Jul 8, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

And with our current team

we need guys who can make open shots and not try to do too much off the dribble. Deng is a better fit.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 11:49 AM CDT up reply actions  

"Identical" is an overstatement.

Iggy has the better TS%, and is by far the more dynamic passer (4.3 ast/36). He’s also played a full season’s worth of games more than Deng (83) despite them being in the same draft class. So there’s that.

But I think you’re right that they’re too similar to really consider Iggy a sufficient upgrade. Plus, Deng is cheaper and 1.5 years younger.

by arjoseph on Jul 9, 2010 10:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

Arenas would be a gamble and I think they should look into it

Micheal Redd is another player.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 11:22 AM CDT reply actions  

Redd's toast

and I’m not sure he even plays more than half of this season.

He’s only be a useful as an acquisition if the Bulls planned on using his expiring (and potentially insured) contract to make a deal at next year’s deadline.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

He is but let's say he plays half a season and shows that he can still play

then next summer I would look at him to sign on as a FA.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 11:42 AM CDT up reply actions  

redd is awful! dear god.

Cashing checks and having sex. Also doing some light medical diagnoses.

by MarketMaker on Jul 9, 2010 9:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

I love #3

No way Philly does that though. Turner’s their future.

Upgrading at the trade deadline is another possibility.

by kthrapp on Jul 8, 2010 11:25 AM CDT reply actions  

Problem with having the max room is that we then don't have the non-essential assets to make such a deal

outside of some lateral movement. I mean, I’d do Rose for Chris Paul, but outside of that…

The idea is to find players who are overpaid and teams would get rid of only for cap space and little (or Taj) else. So while I think Deng-for-Iggy isn’t much of an improvement (though we’d still have the cap space, finding a way to acquire Iggy for less just so the Sixers can save money and let Evan Turner grow would be great.

Arenas bothers me more due to injury than fit or baggage. Sam’s wacky Monta Ellis idea doesn’t seem so bad now. Going top-down in this list doesn’t show many opportunities. I’d like a swing at Kevin Martin but again we’d have to give up something substantially more than a trade exception.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 11:27 AM CDT reply actions  

So it's wait until the deadline or next summer

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 11:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Can't do that. The temptation and need to fill the roster will be too great, and they'll have to use their cap space

If they make a move now, they can actually get a team under the luxury tax, or at least take salary off their payroll.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 8, 2010 11:41 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm looking at the rosters of other teams and there really isn't a player that would be worth it

and that is available. The only one is Arenas.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 11:44 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Monta Ellis idea still seems pretty bad to be

I’d go hard after Danny Granger, like the Nets have apparently been doing. I’d also talk to the Suns about taking Jason Richardson off their hands.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 2:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nets were offering #3 and Devin Harris

Granger wouldn’t just be a cap casualty.

Richardson is a bit more plausible.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 2:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh? indeed

Are you suggesting we send ‘good vibes’ over to the Pacers to get them to give away their best player?

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 3:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

Barbosa forgot how to shoot this year. It's odd.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

wrist injury

doin’ that int’l play thang

waited and waited before finally having surgery

both he and richardson are about $14mil, but richardson is only one year, barbosa $7mil over two

he’s still damn fast

The name of the team is ARIZONA DIAMONDBACKS - "I tried to convince them that what they were doing was an aberration, an imbecility, a stupidity without name"

by marionette on Jul 8, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like the 'using cap space to acquire Evan Turner' idea in theory

We have that cap space and Reinsdorf won’t pay the tax so we have to line ourselves up to have that free money at times. Brand’s contract gives us that.

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Jul 8, 2010 11:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

i've thought about the Turner/Brand angle for a couple days now

signing Boozer makes it a bit weird. for one, Brand is making shitloads for 3 more years. with Boozer on the books now, and Noah and Rose due for big extensions, you’re really locked into that team for two years and hopefully you can move Brand’s huge expiring in the 3rd year. but since our absolute ceiling right now is maybe the semi’s, perhaps you roll the dice. Turner should be useful right away. by year 3 (when you can move Brand) i see them being really good, though Boozer will have also declined some by then. it’s not a terrible plan if everyone knows we can’t win a title this year or likely next year anyways. might as well be a little more interesting with a higher ceiling. as each year goes on, i’d think Deng becomes more and more sought after in a trade as well, so you’re not completely inflexible. and maybe Brand as the 3rd guy in the Noah/Boozer/Brand rotation gives you some useful minutes…

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 11:29 AM CDT reply actions  

as I said in another thread

 I think once the draft actually happened, Turner/Brand was a non-starter. It probably was never that feasible. It’s one thing to save money and another to kill your fanbase’s hoping for the future to do so.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

true

if i was a Sixers fan and we just traded Evan Turner for cap relief, i’d be livid.

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 11:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

They need to get Evan Turner.

Everything pointed to him being an elite prospect except for two things: 1) non-elite athletic ability and 2) outside shooting

Unfortunately, even after testing, #1 remains. He’s not especially looooong and he doesn’t jump all that high.

However, I do believe his shooting is perfectly serviceable coming in and should improve as time goes by. He shot a respectable (but not “good”) 35% over 195 attempts from 3 in his college career. I’ll take his 36.4% at face value of proof that he has slightly improved.

I think he’s a perfect fit for Rose.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 11:36 AM CDT reply actions  

if Rose becomes Wade-like (even a poor man's version)

and Turner is similar to Brandon Roy, i’d take my chances with that.

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 11:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

But Brandoy Roy is one of the better shooting guards in the league

Evan Turner’s maximum ceiling is probably somewhere below Roy currently. Remember, Roy is a better shooter and athlete than Turner. Additionally, YFBB is right that Philly is not going to suck all the hope from their fans now that they have drafted Turner.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, I can't see anything else that keeps them out of above-averageness over the next five years anyway...

…so okay, who cares?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 1:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Philly picked Turner replace Iggy. If anybody goes, it’s Iguodala

by C Smoove on Jul 8, 2010 11:50 AM CDT reply actions  

Rather take Monta than Gilbert, but I'd rather try and get Mayo.

The Griz have tried to move Mayo. The Griz are dumb enough to think he’ll be a 1. The Griz drafted Henry. The Griz make stupid trades. I think you could give up JJ a 1st or two and get Mayo. Is that giving up too much?

by Badmotostinkfinger on Jul 8, 2010 11:56 AM CDT reply actions  

That's a player that crossed my mind but I didn't think they would give him up.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Mayo definitely intrigues me

he’s show can he can defend, and knocks down the 3. he and Rose could be nice together, if he’s really available. since it’s the Grizzlies, you never know.

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

As long as we give include Deng o.O

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 12:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its not giving up too much

On our part, but why would Memphis ever do the deal? Mayo’s contract is still reasonable for now, and he is a top talent. To make a deal with the Grizz you have to actually give them something/save them money.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Memphis does not even have any bad contracts that we could take off their hands...

But, they are Memphis…maybe sweeten the pot with the Charlotte first round pick?

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Can Mayo shoot 3s consistently? Not a huge fan of his, he’s like a slightly better version of young Larry Hughes.

by C Smoove on Jul 8, 2010 12:00 PM CDT reply actions  

38% two years in a row

i haven’t seen hardly any Grizzlies games so i don’t get to see him play, but it seems like that Grizzlies team last year was filled with one-on-one players. maybe with Rose and Boozer, Mayo gets even better?

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

He and Rose might make the most explosive backcourt coming off the dribble from up top in the NBA.

Decent midrange shooter, good passer, defender. He has good handles and could rotate with Rose handling the ball with the other coming off a Boozer screen, which would create defensive nightmares. He was the 3rd pick in the draft, plus Memphis is losing money, no one cares about them and they just gave Gay all that money and Mayo and Gasol will want cash soon as well.

by Badmotostinkfinger on Jul 8, 2010 12:27 PM CDT reply actions  

Mayo

doesn’t make that much money though (about $4.5 million this year and $5.5 million next year). To save the Grizzlies real money, you would have to take back another guy like Conley or Jaric (ans since Jaric is expiring, that still wouldn’t save them much money).

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jaric was bought out, so he can't be traded

Griz have no long-term money outside of the just-dried Rudy Gay extension

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 12:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right

So it makes even less sense for them to dump Mayo’s modest salary for next to nothing.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I think you have to try with Arenas if LeBron goes to Miami. He's the only guy that's been a star that you can get for nothing.

Another, less risky (because of the lower salary he’ll command) is Tracy McGrady. He looked done in NY, but who knows, maybe another summer of recovery and rehab with Grover gets him back where he was and he’ll come cheaper than Arenas.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 1:05 PM CDT reply actions  

McGrady
“but who knows, maybe another summer of recovery and rehab with Grover gets him back where he was”

Could have been written every summer for the past 5 summers or so.

by NoVertical on Jul 8, 2010 1:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep. There are no great options here. LeBron to Miami is the worst case scenario for the Bulls and the rest of the league.

And fans of competitive basketball.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 1:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well... at least all of the other teams will be more competitive with each other, no?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 1:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

haha. true.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Jul 8, 2010 1:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

blah. I am so done with this crap if this happens. Seriously.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

the miami scenario sucks, but no reason to kill the bulls with arenas' contract.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Jul 8, 2010 1:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Meh, the NBA is dead to me anyway if the Heat scenario plays out. The Bulls won't be in the title conversation until

Derrick is like 27 , if LeBron joins the SuperBestFriends, because they’ll own the NBA.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

exactly the next 5 to 8 years so why not take a gamble.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

because its sure to fail. arenas is 28. he looked awful this year. if he rolls in here with a 21 PER

on 52 TS%, that doesnt help the bulls compete with miami anyways (and this is probably the best case scenario) so why bring him in? its pointless.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Jul 8, 2010 2:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he can return to form we will compete against Miami. Trust me I know it's a gamble

but there is no other player that has shown the kind of ability like Arenas that is available.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

he cant return to 24 PER 56 TS% form. thats the point.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Jul 8, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

If his contract was only for the next 2 years it would be doable

His numbers for the next 4 years:

$17m, $19m, $20m, $22m

The only way you maybe do this is if you make them take Deng and get back 2 number 1s.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

we don't know that but it's more than likely

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Another thing I would do is start collecting assets

that way the bulls have enough talent to make a trade in the future when another superstar is made available.

That would start right after James announces he will go to the Heat (IF he does, please don’t). I would call the Heat and say give us Beasley and we’ll send over next years second rounder or a future second rounder if we don’t have next years.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 2:06 PM CDT reply actions  

Funny...I was thinking the same thing...

Beasley is still really young, with a ton of upside potential…we could use Luol in a sixth man role ala Odom in LA, and start Beasley as the SF…still need a SG, but there are several good role players this summer…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

We can start by trading Boozer asap

The answer wasn’t to try for a quick fix.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 2:21 PM CDT reply actions   1 recs

We signed a 22-year old Deng

to a 6-year, $71 mil deal and people haven’t stopped bitching and moaning since, and we’re only through year 3. And there’s a lot of data saying Deng’s the better player. Nobody cares how a contract was in comparison to the market value of a past offseason. That’s a boatload of money going to someone who isn’t nearly that valuable, and now the Bulls have that much more room to make up.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 2:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

They signed an All-Star big man to a value contract. I don't know of many people who would seriously contend that

Deng is more valuable than Boozer, but whatever. Also, the people who bitch about Deng’s deal are, by and large, stupid.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

"many people" = idiots in both contexts

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

?

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

yep, now they have to hope they can get some value from their cheap draft picks.

the guys on rookie deals. If only James Johnson out-performed his pick slot the way Gibson has and they had actually used this year’s pick and it did the same.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

I hate James Johnson for his failure to be as good a value as Taj.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Part of that bitching...

Really comes from the irrational love fest of BG, and the fact that those two contracts were tied to one another for so long…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 4:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

OTOH, Rudy Gay was waaaaaay overpaid.

So I don’t know how that works.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

So's Amare. so are most players. you know who isn't overpaid? Carlos Boozer.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 2:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your argument is Boozer wasn't overpaid compared to his market value

But nobody cares about market value when the season starts. Nobody cares/remembers that Gilbert Arenas took $16 million less than the Wizards offered for the good of the team. All that matters now is how terrible that deal is, even before the gun issue.

Likewise, it doesn’t matter if Boozer is perceived as an elite player. He’s likely average, and injury prone, and will be old, and he’ll be earning like $18 mil towards the end of the deal.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

"He's likely average"

accept he hasn’t been average yet, he isn’t that old league wise because he came into the league at 21 and you have to overpay for other teams free agents – I think this whole summer should have proved that. You aren’t going to take any teams free agents on a bargain salary.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:13 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

He averaged 19pts and 11 rebounds per game

which most players don’t do.

His TS% would have led the Bulls every single year he was healthy. In 8 years in the NBA, he has had a PER of less than 20 3 times – his rookie year, his first year in Utah, and the last season he was injured.

He has made 2 all star teams (in the West) and was 3rd team all NBA in 2008. So no, he has not been average.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

His TS% is around 59%. It's damn good.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

He didn't get paid like an elite player

I was against signing Boozer when I thought we were going to give him 5 yrs/100 million. 5 years $75 million for Boozer seems to me to about what he is worth. Given the amount of dollars chasing few assets, it looks like a veritable bargain.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

"overpay for other teams' free agents--I think this whole summer should have proved that."

That’s a good talking point, but it’s absolutely untrue. Two of the worst (if not the two worst) deals were for teams that wanted to keep their own player. Throw in Milicic’s shit, and yeah, it fundamentally did not prove that.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay, so the point is you have to overpay to get or keep a free agent?

It’s impossible for teams to have outbid those teams to get those guys. I don’t know about Milicic, but Gay and Johnson clearly wanted to leave. Their teams had to overpay to keep them. They had to take full advantage of being able to offer the most money to be keep them in ATL and Memphis. I don’t understand how this is hard to understand.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 9, 2010 7:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

It worked extremely well

from 2004-2006 when we developed some of the league’s best young talent and screwed it all up with a bad signing of an overrated big man. Oh wait.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:16 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

extremely well means one 2nd round exit

and a bunch of slightly above average guys who plateaued (Kirk), couldn’t stay healthy (Deng) or wanted too much money (Gordon). Yeah, that was a sweet ride.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

It put us in position to get a big name at a fair price

and Pax couldn’t pull the trigger. That’s all you can do. Signing a player to a bad contract accomplishes nothing.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Who did we sign to a bad contract?

If you are talking about Boozer, that’s good value.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I swear you guys have all lost your minds

A market resulting from an offseason where half the league has cap space does not equal normal reality. High demand, econ 101

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bogut signed a 5 year, $60 mil extension

Varejao got a 6 year, $50 mil extension
Odom got a 4 year, $33 mil extension

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

Odom's agent should be fired. Goodness.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree with all of that.

But still Odom is such a value deal. It’s just too bad for Jerry Buss that Kupchak gave terrible deals to Luke Walton, Vujacic, Vlad Rad (which was embodied by Adam Morrison last year).

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

Boozer is a very good offensive player

Varejao was 2nd team all-defense. Neither is particularly good on the other side of the ball. What am I missing?

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

ha Varejao wasn't even 1st team all-defense, no comparision :P

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

Boozer is a much better player

How many All-Star teams has Varejao made in the relatively weak Eastern Conference?

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Jerry Stackhouse

made multiple all-star games and scored 20+ ppg. Doesn’t mean he’s good.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

I am aware that All-Star teams aren't definitive proof

But Boozer is much, much, much better than Varajeo. With Boozer, the Cavs probably win the NBA title this year.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

hahahaha

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Varejao shouldn't have been 2nd team all-defense

He doesn’t play that many minutes, which is why Boozer is more valuable. I also think you’re underselling Boozer’s defensive contribution. He’s a reasonably good post defender because of how strong he is. He’s not gonna shut anybody down, but he’s going to make guys work for post position.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Finding a guy that does the things Boozer does is a lot harder than finding the things that

Andy V does. Offensively skilled bigs that drop 19 and 11 with PERs over 20 are pretty rare. The Bulls have needed one for quite some time. They’ve finally got one and they didn’t have to max him out. I fail to see how this is a bad thing.

I’m depressed as anyone that we’re not getting LeBron and the Eastern Confernece is effectively over for 5 years, but the Boozer deal was a good one for the Bulls.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Odom won another ring...

And got a spot on a National Taco Bell commercial and a role on a T.V. Series…His agent is doing a pretty good job if you ask me…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes (but different situation), No, Maybe

I am pretty sure that Bogut got max dollars at the time. Varajao’s contract is horrendous in comparison to Boozer’s. Odom’s contract is better, but he is a far worse player and it might be the best value in the entire league. Also I believe that he got a discount to stay with the Lakers.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Bogut could have had a starting salary of $13.8 mil

Which becomes a $80-85 mil contract. He got well under that.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just looked it up

He signed his contract in 2008, when it was far from assured that he was going to develop into the player he is now. Also, it is worth up to $72.5 million if he hits relatively attainable incentives. A better contract, but not on the open market and not for a proven all-star.

http://www.brewhoop.com/2008/7/9/568334/breaking-down-bogut-s-exte

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Even so, the extent of the "market" for NBA FAs is very limited

Every summer, you’ve got few players, few buying teams, and both teams and players are highly specialized. The Bulls can’t wait to use their money later, and they didn’t have the choice of any other PF in the league.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 8, 2010 3:47 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

I don't think Boozer has a bad contract unless your argument is that

every NBA player has a bad contract. You seem to be interested in winning the perfect price NBA championship. Every NBA team has players that are overpaid. Is Bynum worth his salary? Is Luke Walton? The idea that you are going to find 12 guys and slot them perfectly into the right salary is not based in reality.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you comparing us to the Lakers now?

Reinsdorf doesn’t spend over $70 mil. Buss will have paid $112 mil for his team after he pays the luxury tax. Let’s say you need $90 mil in production value to win a championship. Buss can afford bad contracts, Reinsdorf cannot.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's the same thing as a Bulls fan

I’m not holding out any hope Reinsdorf will shell out money for this team.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

well then honestly we already missed our window

since Rose and Noah won’t be on rookie deals much longer

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

It was really LeBron or Wade or bust. They failed.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

He'll be forced to pay max or near max to Rose,

and then that will alter the JR game plans a bit. Rose >>> Hinrich circa ’07

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 8, 2010 3:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

He's going to low-ball Noah this year to try to get him into next season.

Then next year, they’ll extend Rose and try to get Noah to sign for pennies again, because there will probably be a hold out. They’ll offer him the qualifying offer. If, by that third year, they can get rid of Boozer, they’ll re-sign Noah if he wants to stay.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reinsdorf can afford bad contracts

he just chooses not too. And he has set up a situation where the Bulls have to be almost perfect at building a team to gain any traction. The moment it doesn’t look perfect, they tear it all down and rebuild. That is a bullshit strategy. You get a good team, a solid team and than you look for pieces to put you over the top. I’m not saying sign guys willy-nilly like the Knicks. But the fact that the Bulls are so scared to overpay for actual talent says a ton about their mentality. And the fact they won’t do whatever it takes, is probably part of the reason LBJ is going to be playing for the Heat next season.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Well in that case, we're screwed anyways

So why not put together as good a team as we can anyways. Maybe Boozer doesn’t make us championship worthy, but what alternative moves could we have made that would’ve had us better off?

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls are essentially a small-market team

In baseball, small market teams win by building slow, and they take advantage of the fact that big market teams overpay for quick fixes. Build slow, get a bunch of smart contracts and see what opportunities present themselves in the future.

by YaoPau on Jul 8, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Baseball and Basketball are totally different animals

You need a superstar to compete in basketball. You don’t in football. I don’t fault the Bulls for blowing up the 2004-2006 team. They weren’t going anywhere.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

But he's good and that's what we need; good players

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rose is a superstar

We aren’t paying Boozer superstar money.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I know; I'm with you. I like the Boozer signing.

We needed a PF. It’s like if we went and got a medicore PF would we be happy? In the NBA you will over pay to get what you need. When you get to chamionship contenders you can then under pay and it all evens out.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rose isn't a superstar.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yet

(crosses fingers)

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he isn't yet, he is damn close

There are about 10 players in the NBA that you would trade straight-up for Rose.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 4:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he isn't yet, he is damn close

There are probably 10 players in the league that a team wouldn’t trade straight-up for DRose. Rose is in his second year at age . By comparison, Paul made a huge leap in his 3rd year with one extra year in college.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 4:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Right, Rose is still based on potential.

There might only be 10 guys other teams would trade straight up for him, but there are more than 30 that are better than him.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 9, 2010 7:19 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

this is an accurate assessment.

"If I was to answer that question honestly, I would have to lie to you."

- Isiah Thomas, when asked if any teams were interested in trading for Shandon Anderson

by TheMoon on Jul 9, 2010 5:03 PM CDT up reply actions  

None

It was all or nothing this summer. At least we didn’t end up with nothing.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

We could have had Outlaw!!!!! he plays really darn hard! lol

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

What I'm trying to say is, it's not all about value

Because of how the NBA is structured, we can’t sit on our $30 mil of cap space and wait for a better value to present itself. We have to spend it this summer, and Boozer was the best thing we could spend it on.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Expanding on that

We might have been able to sign a bunch of cheaper role players instead of consolidating our resources and signing Boozer. But the reason that option’s a bad one is because you have limited minutes to dole out. You just can’t sign 6 guys worth $5 million and give them all enough minutes where they’ll be worth their contracts.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think the Wallace contract was uniquely bad

he really fell off a cliff.

And then it exposed the rest of the ‘core’ as pretty bleh.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 8, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

that team would never have won a championship

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

except that young talent wasn't actually so good after all.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 5:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

We might not have a choice. Hopefully

The right oppurtunity comes along before five years

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 5:14 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

No, if they can pull some sort of rabbit out of their hat, they could still contend

The SuperFriends won’t be utterly invincible yet. Wade could fade quickly, they could make bad role player choices, injuries can happen.

A team with two very good players (Rose/Boozer, Carter/Howard/Lewis, maybe Favors/Lopez in a few years?) would probably have a puncher’s chance against them, especially if that team if filled in with guys like Deng and Noah.

Obviously I think you still need to have something more than a puncher’s chance, but it’s not a complete boondoggle either.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 8, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Heat are about to have arguably the two best players in the game and one of the top bigs in the game.

It’s game over. Role players simply don’t matter that much.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

John Paxson wants to have a word with you

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

ha!

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Stever Kerr just gave you a thumbs up

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

If those guys don't have their moments in the sun, though,

usually their teams don’t win championships. You need role players capable of making those plays. You need the Nate Rob + Glen Davis types who can carry the team for a quarter; or the Posey/Artest/Bowen I-can-guard-your-elite-scorer types; or the Fisher/Horry/Paxon/Kerr types who will hit big shots without flinching.

by arjoseph on Jul 9, 2010 10:52 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Wrong. Look at Hinrich. A lot of people can’t handle the pressure. It is a skill even to hit open shots especially when the game is on the line. Not every player has ice water instead of blood in their veins.

by C Smoove on Jul 10, 2010 6:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rajon Rondo didn't matter in 08?

The celtics lucked out big time with every single one of their role players. Rondo especially.

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 8, 2010 3:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Celtics only needed role players because their big 3 was aging and not ever as good as the Miami 3.

The Miami 3 are going to be in their primes. It’s going to be ridiculous.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Dwyane Wade's prime is just about over

And if one of those guys gets hurt in the playoffs, that’s it for them.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's to many what if's.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Its just 1 if.

Its as true for the Miami H3at as it was for the ’09 celts. One big injury and its hard for them to compete. (same for every team).

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 8, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wade's only 28. He won't be in his prime at the end of the deal, but by then they will have used exceptions

to bring in other guys to lighten the load and LeBron will likely be even better (scary).

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

I consider 24-27 to be the prime for most guys.

Now obviously, some guys’s prime lasts a bit longer, Wade still put up ridiculous numbers numbers last year, and a past-his-prime Wade is still very good, but nevertheless, I don’t think it’s a given that Miami will dominate for the next 5 years.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

so, all of those guys were older than wade

when your oldest is younger than their youngest, blah blah blah

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Yeah agreed.

But they can’t play 3 v 5. I mean, how good would they be with Acie Law and Chris Richard filling out the starting five? The Celtics lucked into an incredible amount of awesome role players in ’08, and Garnett was the only at the beginning of his decline from his peak as the best in the league.

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 8, 2010 3:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

They'd still dominate. Honestly. The bit players lives would be so easy with those 3 running things

that Acie Law and Chris Richard would look nothing like the players you know them to be.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Richards would cut his hair?

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, he'd just get lots and lots of easy layups.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

According to the stat geeks...61-82.
ESPN’s John Hollinger weighed in with a PER-based analysis a week ago (he said Wade + Bosh + James + 10 replacement level ballers = 61 wins)
If they play like they did last year, the Heat’s differential would be a monstrous, Redeem Team-esque +21.2, which I can’t even give a wins estimate for because it breaks the linear equation that relates efficiency differential to winning % (it would have them winning more than 100% of their games). No team has ever had that kind of performance in the history if the NBA, meaning there is a pretty decent chance they’d obliterate the ‘96 Bulls’ record for most wins in a season.

Basketball Reference Blog

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah, I thought of that
meaning there is a pretty decent chance they’d obliterate the ‘96 Bulls’ record for most wins in a season.

Scary

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 9, 2010 8:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

doubt it

that 72-10 season won’t be replicated unless Chris Paul and Dwight Howard somehow join the Heat.

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 9, 2010 10:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

Garnett, Allen and Pierce at their ages don't compare to Bosh, Wade and James at their ages.

Sheesh

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

The Heat might not win it this year. But as soon as they can start getting players with the MLE and through the draft they will absolutely dominate. Everyone else is playing for second place except for maybe the Lakers or the Magic if they can get Chris Paul. It’s a super-team.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 4:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

If you can put together a 50-55 win team (I think the Bulls fit that bill), then you put yourself in a position to run hot and win a title (see 05-06 Heat, or last year’s Celtics – almost). And short of getting Lebron/Wade/Bosh, that’s about as good as we could’ve hoped for.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 4:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Heat were only 52 win team because O'Neal only played in 58 games.

If he plays in 20 more games, they win at least 5 more games.

Besides, the Bulls have no one as good as Dwyane Wade was in that series.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think this is the proper comparison

The Bulls didn’t get their superstar. They will have to build an ensemble team. The only problem is that the Heat could easily assemble the best team of all time. 03-04 Pistons-style team isn’t beating the super-team the Heat are building. The only chance is if the Magic get a couple of superstars to go with Howard.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 4:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

You mean the 54 win team that had arguably it's best or 2nd-best player for only 22 games?

Nope, that’s a 58-60 win team, too.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 9, 2010 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Fine

But at the start of the season they were no better off than we are now. I know this wasn’t my original point but right now we’re one piece away from being championship-caliber, just like the pistons were before they got Sheed and the lakers were before they got gasol.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 9, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'll agree that they're one very good player away from being a contender.

Simply adding Iguodala without taking anyone away would make them really good. But you implied the current team without that piece is there. I strongly disagree with that. Right now, they’re, at most, a 50 win team. Miller, backup point, backup SG, at most, they add another win or two.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 11, 2010 3:22 PM CDT up reply actions  

Only chance....

(1) For Rose to become best buds with Durant at the next Olympics…..(2) make a pact (3)??? (4) Profit.

by JSB on Jul 8, 2010 3:15 PM CDT reply actions  

I like it....... unless Durnat takes him to OKC.....

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

i wouldn't even hate that at this point

i’ll follow them until JR dies or sells. i’m already resigned to following Rose win a title in another city.

by M 80 on Jul 8, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think you could get Iguodala for really cheap

He and Turner aren’t a great fit together. Philly is losing money, is over the cap and NO ONE will take Elton Brand off their hands. I honestly believe that the Bulls could trade for Iggy and not give up Deng. You may have to get a 3rd team involved, but the Bulls could use their cap space to grab Iggy.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 3:17 PM CDT reply actions  

a trade that could work

Chicago sends: James Johnson to Golden State
Golden State sends: Monta Ellis to Philly
Philly sends: Iguodala and Kapono to Chicago and Maurees Speights to Golden State

The trade saves Philadelphia about 9 million in salary and they get a pretty good player in Ellis.

Golden State gets rid of some salary, turns the keys over to Curry, as well and take a flyer on James Johnson and a young big Speights with solid numbers.

The Bulls get a guy in Iguodala who is good defensively, athletic, can pass and rebound (can’t shoot) but is overpaid. In Kapono they get a shooter off the bench which they desperately need.

Rose
Iggy
Deng
Boozer
Noah

w/Taj and Kapono and whatever else you can get with the 2 million left you have in cap space (just an estimate).

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 8, 2010 4:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see GS making that deal.

Yes, they could stand to clear some cap and clear the backcourt for Curry, and they always need defensive bigs, but I don’t see any team (especially the Warriors) giving up a guy who put up 25/4/5 last year for James Johnson and Marreese Speights.

Also, I don’t think Iggy is a great fit on this team. Obviously if you can get him for little more than cap space, you have to think about it, though.

by pooriejay on Jul 9, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

But you have solid inside game...

…with no shooters to keep defenses honest.

I really, really, really like Iggy’s game. But I don’t think he is a good fit in this lineup. He, Deng, and Rose are all at their best attacking the basket.

by jmogs on Jul 9, 2010 9:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

The best worst shooting team in the NBA, I'm down.

"Boozer's dumb ass jumped. So I dunked on his ass."-Joakim Noah

by Ozzie Montana on Jul 8, 2010 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

Isn't Josh Smith being shopped? What do you think of him?

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:57 PM CDT reply actions  

Why would they be shopping thier best player?

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 3:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I read it on ESPN, don't got time to search for the link, but it was right after they offered JJ his contract

Since they were paying JJ so much they would try and save money by unloading Smith. It was a rumor.

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 3:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Hawks have recently been exploring the possibility of trading power forward Josh Smith as part of their summertime makeover, according to sources around the league.
http://nba.fanhouse.com/2010/07/05/shaq-weighing-offer-from-hawks-to-join-johnson/

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Awesome!

Overpay for Johnson. Get rid of Smith.

God, they should have just got Childress.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 8, 2010 4:09 PM CDT up reply actions  

Maybe we can trade them Boozer for him

bahahahaha

Go Rockets/Nets[CDR]/Bucks[Jennings]!

by Prevenge on Jul 8, 2010 11:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

He plays PF, not SF. We just added Boozer, so Smith seems a bad fit.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 8, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Gotcha

its Marvin Williams at Small Forward for the Hawks. Smith would be a bad fit… Iggy’s been the best player mentioned so far.

by JockstrapNoah on Jul 8, 2010 4:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok I'm finally home from work

what’s the news or rumors on Where Lebron is leaning?

Can you get ❼ Lebron? Can you get 1 Vikings? 2010 is the year to do it!!

by UnBannedVikingholic on Jul 8, 2010 4:23 PM CDT reply actions  

The heatabullsknickercavaliers or where ever Broussard says

"I guess I can’t do anything if you’re just irrational, but to point it out and move on."

- fundamentallysound

by J Theory on Jul 8, 2010 5:18 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Good post Sports2...

I have poured over the NBA rosters for the past half hour…beyond the guys that you mentioned and others in this thread (O.J. Mayo), I don’t know that there is another guy that would become available who would have anywhere close to the talent level of the third player of Miami Thrice…

From an international perspective, are there any guys playing overseas currently that could ascend to that level…Is Fran Vazquez good enough to put a team over the top…but he plays the wrong position? Will Omer Asik make a huge impact in the NBA? Doubtful…Is Josh Childress coming back to the NBA? Even if he does, I don’t know if he makes enough of a difference..

I would consider taking a flyer on JR Smith if the Nugz want to shed his salary…he is older, which usually means mature…he has demonstrated the propensity to score in buckets, has the size to defend (and with Thibs) a coach who will demand it…I don’t know if he is talented enough; but he has the right combo of skills to be worth a look.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 8, 2010 5:39 PM CDT reply actions  

JR is and always will be a headcase

but he is worth a flyer, he could lead the second unit a la Nate Robinson

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 9, 2010 10:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

I can't believe I'm saying this, but I would really seriously

consider signing McGrady. He’s probably done, but if he got back in the same way that Grant Hill got it back he would be a real difference maker. Tim Grover and his people would have easy access in Chicago to shock the hell out of his body are whatever they do. The team needs another perimeter playmaker with Hinrich gone, and McGrady still sees the floor so well. It’s risky, but it’s not a long term or team crippling risk.

by Scotter on Jul 8, 2010 9:45 PM CDT reply actions  

I agree

I’d like to take a flyer on him, provided the contract’s structured in a way that minimizes the risk as much as possible. I think if he can stay reasonably healthy, he could be a really good 6th man as a scorer/distributor off the bench.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 8, 2010 10:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

At a reasonable price, I don't see anything but upside

Get TMac and Iggy, and maybe we make up for quality with quantity and suffocating D.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 8, 2010 10:30 PM CDT up reply actions  

100% agree on Tmac

Minimize risk with a short term contract and make him come off the bench. I think Morrow with TMac off the bench could be good. I think he never really got his legs under him in NYC. They were a run and gun team with an old man on the team.

by LeBenny da Bull on Jul 8, 2010 10:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

$5 million for one year?

over 2 yeas? $3 million? I have no idea of his price.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 9, 2010 7:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

So long as the contract is a simple one year, I would do it

Let’s do T-Mac at 5 mil for one year, then trade James Johnson and a crappy pick to Washington for Arenas. If those guys panned out at all, this could be a freakishly good team.

by DRose01 on Jul 9, 2010 7:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

i'm down with the TMac idea

but i want no part of Arenas. if he bombs (or gets hurt) then what? that could fuck up extending Noah and Rose down the road since we know JR won’t pay the tax. luckily i don’t think our FO would take that gamble anyways. but TMac i could see.

by M 80 on Jul 9, 2010 9:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd offer him 4 years $25 mil

But stipulate that the last two years only become guaranteed of he plays X number of games in the first 2 years.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 9, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I dont think the Bulls should try to keep up with the Heat

The Heat won this FA period with their big 3, congrats to them.

The Bulls are still going to be a good team next year by adding Carlos Boozer. They are not going to contend for a title, but they werent going to contend anyway if they didnt get LBJ. I think the Bulls should sign some mid level players like Raja Bell, Tony Allen, or Mike Miller to round the team. If the Bulls can stay $5M to $10M below the salary cap at the start of the season, it might work to their advantage. Around the trading deadline, there will be teams looking to shed contracts to avoid the luxury tax and in preparation for the next CBA. At that time, the Bulls can use their cap space to look for deals to improve the team.

by VaderMaul on Jul 8, 2010 9:56 PM CDT reply actions  

We should consider other paths

Fist of all it seems Mike Miller already have a ton of proposals, including the HEAT.

But I remember crazy-Sam Smith saying that Pat Riley’s plan was to have LeBron James play the point position à la Magic Johnson. If that is the case, no way we can keep DRose or Deng on him efficiently. We either need a second 2 guard who is both big and with defensive skills (Ronnie Brewer) or get that in our starter (maybe iggy but I doubt he has the speed to match LeBron).

If we are to compete bet we need a killer. We need a guy who can now and then reach the 30-40 point mark when Rose fail to do so. Of course we can’t get Carmelo, Kobe or Durant and we already missed Joe Johnson, Rudy Gay, Maggette and Ray Allen. Crazy Stephen Jackson would be a nice fit bball wise but he is also out. Since we don’t have a guy who play both ends I would try to acquire Brewer or Tony Allen to play D + a scoring option. I don’t like Morrow or Korver as starters because they are onedimensional players. I would like to have one of those on the bench though. But they could be our only option.
I would, however, consider trying to lure a team to dump a salary on us and give thoughts one of those:

J-Rich: veteran with size, still fast and strong. Will be in a contract year so if he fails we dont have to keep paying and we can expect him to play hard. Had a great run with the Suns in the playoffs shooting an amazing 48% on 3pts. (so I dont know if they give him away for a pick)

Monta Ellis: ok, he have a lot of flaws. He might be a slightly taller Ben Gordon. But he is one of the few guys available out there. Can play off and he can pass the ball. Sure he doesn’t fit the big SG i just mentioned but i guess we could take him + Brewer. He had a good season playing with curry as he found opens spaces and that would be better with rose.

Iggy: the downside is the lack of a 3 point shot. But he is a good passer, strong rebounder and a big guard who can defend well on Thibs system. We would have to add a 3pt shooter as well but iggy can play 3 so it helps.

Rudy Fernandez: a very risky choice as he is one of the most irregular players on the league. Blazers would not dump him but maybe trade for our JJ or pick. Rudy has played agains the big 3 in the Olympics and played big but he really played bad when given the chance in last year’s playoffs. His 3 pt shooting is irregular. Shot 38% in the season but 48% in the playoffs. I like his style but as a starter is not my first option at all.

Jamal Crawford: not a great option. But still better than Redick or Korver IMO. as Ellis doesn’t play D but could have a shadow in Brewer. He is a real combo and can knock the 3.

Kirk Hinrich: just kidding

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 9, 2010 8:34 AM CDT reply actions  

Ready set...Arenas bandwagon!

I seriously believe Arenas is worth the risk. The injuries to me are the biggest concern. That and determining if he has stayed in basketball shape.

In 2007 (his last full season) he put up the following stats: 28.4pts, 6.0ast, 4.6 reb, 1.9 stl, 56.5% TS, 23.97PER on 31.38 USG

Dwayne Wade put up the following stats last season: 26.6pts, 7.5ast, 4.7 reb, 2.1 stl, 56.2% TS, 28.12 PER on 34.89USG.

If healthy, he’s an upper middle class Dwayne Wade! He’s not quite there and the injuries are a big risk, but if he panned out, this team could be deadly.

by DRose01 on Jul 9, 2010 8:41 AM CDT reply actions  

Can Arenas defend

(i’m really asking I never followed that clown)

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 9, 2010 8:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

DRtg of 109

for his career. Not great, but not poor. 1.7 steals ain’t bad.

by DRose01 on Jul 9, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

According to some measurements i've seen

he’s one of the worst in the league. Making him a 2 guard would probably make it worse.

So…gotta say it: this sort of vindicates the Ben Gordon thing.
-by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jun 24, 2010 1:20 PM PDT

by runningman on Jul 9, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

The he may suck regardless part is true

But you can’t prove that. DWade was assisted on only 27.7% of his shots last season. That is a full 7% lower than the next closest SG playing at least 20 min per game. Arenas in his last full season was at 35.5%. That is still in the Monta Ellis, Brandon Roy, Vince Carter, Joe Johnson range, but those guys, like Arenas and Wade dominate the ball because they have to. They could play off the ball. Rose has also shown flashes of playing well off the ball. It could work. Plus, he is by far the best (potentially) player we could get for probably nothing!

Heck, if the want out of the Arenas contract badly, we could probably sneak a good draft pick out of the deal.

by DRose01 on Jul 9, 2010 11:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think it could work

At the very least, it’d be less than ideal. And he’d be atrocious defensively at the 2.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 9, 2010 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

And btw

I think if I were the Bulls org, now is not the time to play it safe. With Boozer soon to be older and deteriorating, they need to take some chances. And with Wall in washington, they would be willing to trade Arenas. I think Arenas is definitely a possibility that the bulls should look at despite his perceived character issues (read stupidity)

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 9, 2010 10:01 AM CDT reply actions  

Wouldn't work in the backcourt with Rose

We need a shooter, not a guy who hogs the ball (and is a probation violation away from prison).

by RM on Jul 9, 2010 10:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

gotcha

I’ve only seen him a couple times and that was like 3 years ago so i don’t really remember. So there’s no way he adapts to a more off-ball shooter role?

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 9, 2010 11:05 AM CDT up reply actions  

So to recap

the Bulls don’t have a realistic way to contend this year, and with Boozer’s age and escalating salary, and the looming extensions for Rose and Noah, they don’t really have a chance to get appreciably better in the future unless they get lucky on a draft pick. Is that about it.

Bulls season tickets are on sale now!

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jul 9, 2010 10:06 AM CDT reply actions  

Not a realistic way to contend?

dude…rose-boozer-noah + deng + some shooters with the cap space. They’ll can very good in my opinion, or at least pretty good

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 9, 2010 11:00 AM CDT up reply actions  

What's your big idea?

Get rid of everyone (including Rose), start from scratch and hope to get lucky in the lottery? I don’t see what else the Bulls could have done and don’t give me this “winner’s screw the prom queen nonsense.” It’s pretty clear that LeBron didn’t believe that a team where he was the clear-cut number 1 was a lock to win a title and chose to go with the situation where he didn’t have to be the man. The Bulls are better than they have been at any time since Jordan retired and still have $18 million of cap space. As long as they don’t waste that on long-term contracts to Redick-type players, I think they can be a “good” team for years to come. Maybe they won’t be able to beat the Heat, but you can hardly blame them for that.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 1:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

What's the point

of using cap space on a team that can’t beat the Heat? Honestly. If the team as assembled won’t beat them, and we’re going to fill up our cap space, then we don’t have a chance of buying someone to put us over the top, and we’ll be too good to draft someone to do it.

I don’t have a grand plan. But it doesn’t seem like the Bulls do either. They are not assembling a contender, they are putting together a team that’s good enough to keep selling tickets. We’re the Atlanta Hawks in a big market. That sucks.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jul 9, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls had a grand plan and LeBron James' cowardice blew it up

I think you are being unfair. The Bulls FO has to do something. They can’t just throw up their hands, say we won’t be able to beat the Heat and start over. I am not a capologist, but I believe that is next to impossible to roll into every season with 2 max slots. If you want to make moves to preserve cap space for next off-season or in two off-seasons, I would have no problem with that.

Unlike baseball, basketball is a sport that requires a lot of luck in addition to skill in building a championship-contending team. Whether it’s winning the lottery (Thunder), signing a free agent (Heat) or duping another GM (Celtics and Lakers). The Heat got extraordinarily lucky that Wade was able to become great friends with Bosh and LeBron and convince them both that they needed him to win. At this point, I think we have to hope the Bulls get lucky in some way in order to add one more major piece. I just don’t see how it happens, but I doubt any of those other teams in the moment before their stroke of luck happened saw how it was going to happen either.

I am all for trading for expiring contracts and preserving future flexibility as compared to blowing their cap space on 3 role players, but the Bulls will have to do something. Throwing up your hands and saying we will never win a championship with these building blocks isn’t a solution.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 2:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

I didn't present

it as a solution. It’s an assessment. It’s not my job to make the Bulls win a title.

My assessment is the Bulls have a very small chance of winning a title in the next 5 years. They are unlikely to get anyone through the draft, and they are unlikely to get anyone big through free agency after this season. And the current team likely isn’t good enough to get it done—even if the Heat weren’t around, the Bulls probably can’t beat the Magic, Celtics or Lakers. They are closer to Atlanta or Milwaukee than they are to the Heat or Lakers.

DEJESUS!!!

by tomas21 on Jul 9, 2010 3:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's not your job, but if you want to criticize you should have an alternative

If you want to check out on the Bulls for the next 5 years, that’s your perogative. I am going to enjoy the best basketball we will have seen since the Jordan era. If the Bulls make the right moves, there is no reason you can’t build a 55 win team with a core of Rose/Boozer/Noah/Deng. You can call it “NBA hell” if you want, but true NBA hell is where we have been the last 10 years.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 4:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yes, that's true

But as JSB said, we just have to get lucky. That’s our only hope.

We need to use this crap room now, because it will disappear once we extend Noah and Rose. If we sign carefully and don’t overspend, maybe in the future we can rip someone off in a trade.

Other than sheer luck, the only other way we’ll ever be a contender is if Rose turns into the second coming of Chris Paul. If he does that, we have a shot to be a contender.

by RM on Jul 9, 2010 4:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Exactly

It’s disappointing that we saw a potential dynasty slip through our fingers because our main target is a cowardly man-child, but there isn’t much we can do about that. Time to move on. I personally am going to enjoy watching this team taking a shot at the Heat. It will probably result in heartbreak, but it has the potential to be great theatre.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 4:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Heat, even with the big 3, is a flawed team

They dont have any interior defense since Bosh wont play center. They also dont have any 3-pt shooters atm. They will beat up on all the bad teams with sheer talent, but could struggle against the good and cohesive teams.

Besides so much of their salary cap is tied to 3 players. If one of them gets hurt, they wont have the bench to compensate.

by VaderMaul on Jul 9, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, that's why I suggest going for a star player like Iggy

On paper, you probably can’t beat the Heat, but if you get 1 superstar (which Rose could evolve to), two kind of stars (Boozer and Noah), and two well above average all around players (Iggy and Deng), you probably have a decent shot.

We’re the Pistons to the Lakers and Spurs of a few years back.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 10, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

Plus Iggy could defend

Wade instead of Rose having to try to.
It’d vastly improve the perimeter defense w/ the good help defense Noah would provide inside, thus overall improving the D.
Plus, if the team wants to get out and run, like Thibs has said, you have a better wing option for running the break and Luol can become that guy that spots up trailing the break.
I just wish Iggy’s deal was back-loaded.

by kingj41 on Jul 10, 2010 1:31 PM CDT up reply actions  

To enjoy winning basketball.

I think there were other fans of teams other than the Lakers who enjoyed the NBA this season.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 11, 2010 3:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Other teams had a reasonable chance at beating the Lakers, though. No one is beating the Miami juggernaut,

except maybe the Lakers.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 11, 2010 4:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

Okay?

Why are you still here?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 12, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm a masochist.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 12, 2010 11:04 AM CDT up reply actions  

The options you've suggested in this post aren't realistic. And the Bulls reportedly tried to get Iggy

for Deng and Taj and the Sixers said no. So they aren’t content. They are exploring opportunities. They just don’t have great options. Paul is not available. Nor is Turner. Gilbert Arenas was always overrated and now hes been injured for three years running. He’s not the answer.

So what else do you have? Any other ideas? And any proof that the Bulls aren’t exploring these opprotunities and finding other teams unwilling to make a deal? We dont’ have a lot of attractive pieces that we want to or would be willing to move.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 12, 2010 12:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

that was a JOHN report

besides, I could get why they’d say no to Deng, yet yes to nobody. I think dealing Deng for Iggy signals the Bulls are really happy with their current pay structure.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 12, 2010 3:05 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Meh, I still think the Sixers value Iggy too much to simply dump him for cap space. Plus tons of

other teams could offer TPEs to get him. For instance, if I’m the Cavs and Iggy is really available for cap space? I’m trading for him using the LeBron TPE yesterday. He’s pretty much a poor man’s LeBron anyway, so he’d fit in with their existing structure even if he would be worse at it.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 12, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

What yfBB said, plus

I think folks are taking the specific tactics too literally and ignoring the strategy. The specifics related to considering options I’ve actually read people musing about.

It’s not realistic that Paul or Anthony might be traded? Sure it is. They’re in smaller markets, making the max, and their teams are probably not going to contend. What’s more, it’s been talked about that their teams were considering it within the last few weeks.

Now, they might have changed their mind and made other moves since, but it’s worth considering and scouring the league for possibilities when the alternative is dropping $12M on Kyle Korver and JJ Redick.

So what else do I have? Well, the main thing I have is for the Bulls to TRY be creative, try to arrange a trade for a player who could at least conceivably match up well, and not engage in a headlong rush to lock themselves into mediocrity.

As a general rule, I wanted them to

1. Badger every GM who’s got a superstar and remotely considered trading them.
2. Failing that, try your ass off to build a truly special set of defensive players around your defensive specialist coach, and then worry about your offense second. With Boozer and Rose, your offense will be ok no matter what. That’s where the variety of defensive player talk (a la Iggy comes in). Following my research on Childress, I spose I would have spoken more highly of him in my original post, though I would have pursued a trade first.
3. If part 2 mostly failed (and I’d consider ending up with someone like Ariza or Childress a partial failure compared with someone like Iggy, I’d look around to start acquiring lottery picks for salary space, a la the Thunder, in an attempt to get a star down the road.

Again, take this course because these are the right strategies. Don’t shit your pants and decide you just have to go spend $7M/year on JJ Redick.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 12, 2010 4:46 PM CDT up reply actions  

Is Redick and Korver at $12 million better than Gordon?

I’m asking without thinking of the answer. What do you guys think?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 12, 2010 5:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

For this offense maybe.

It’s a shame that Gordon couldn’t have been had for less money. The one thing about Gordon is that contract is immovable and for 5 years. The Redick/Korver contracts are movable and for only three years. BG’s contract hampers flexibility alot and if his legs ever went he would be useless as a player.

by JSB on Jul 12, 2010 5:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

More or less a wash

Gordon’s better, but you’re committing more years to him, so it’s riskier.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 12, 2010 6:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

It's at least a wash if not an improvement.

Gordon’s superior individual production is offset by most likely getting more minutes out of the combination of Redick and Korver. And if one of them gets injured you still have the other unlike losing Gordon.

Defensively even if you’re not getting individual improvement you’re getting a second shooter that can matchup with the bigger SGs in the league. The team is more flexible and less exposed to a bad matchup.

Financially the shorter deals and increased ability to trade one of Redick or Korver versus all of Gordon’s contract is a plus for Korver and Redick.

by Scotter on Jul 12, 2010 6:45 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Couldn't have said it better.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 12, 2010 7:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

You have to factor in the length of the deals, too.

I think 2 short-term contracts are better than one 5 year deal, all other things being equal.

by pooriejay on Jul 13, 2010 9:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

Of course not

All the arguments I see in favor of Redick/Korver look pretty shoddy to me:

1. I don’t see why anyone thinks Redick or Korver will be easy to move on their deals. Who the hell wants to pay Reddick $7M/yr? Nobody, that’s who. With Gordon, you can at least point to him and say he’ll fetch you 20/game if you let him play. Jason Richardson, Leandro Barbosa, Mo Williams, Monta Ellis… all of those guys have been said to have terrible, unmovable contracts, but they get moved. Why? Because big or small, teams like and need a player that can light up a scoreboard.

Redick and Korver, however, will be overpaid (we’re already watching similar or better players sign for less) but not quite as dynamic.

2. The length of contract thing is sort of a non-issue too. Is anyone going to consider it a good outcome if we figure out Reddick is a waste halfway through this year, and we’re “only” stuck with him two and a half more years?

3. I don’t get the" two is better than one" argument either. Let’s say on a scale of 1 (Eddy Curry) -10 (Lebron), Gordon is something like a 7 in terms of the productivity he adds to the team. The average starter is a 5. Reddick and Korver are like a 4 and a 3. Lets be charitable to the argument and say a minsal backup (say, Luther Head) is a 2.

So if you play Gordon 33 and Head 15, you get productivity of 33*7 + 15*2 = 261.
Play Redick and Korver similar minutes and you get productivity of 33*4+15*3= 177.

That is, you get a significant amount of additional productivity with Gordon in the likely case, which is everyone is healthy. Even if you rate Gordon as only slightly better than Redick (call BG a 5 instead of a 7) you still come out ahead with Gordon. Why? Because your big minute players are on the court so much more than even marginal improvements in productivity are going to add up to significant amounts over time.

 If Gordon and Reddick get hurt, then yes, you do slightly better having Korver, but in practice it doesn’t matter too much because if you’re playing him 30mpg for long stretches of the season, you’re probably just as sunk as if you’re playing Luther Head 30mpg for long stretches of the season. Korver’s additional ability is a marginal and non-determinative improvement.

Basically, it’s the same case yfBB made about Amare. Replacing him with Hedo and Warrick isn’t gonna come anywhere close.

To actually put a player’s productivity to use, you have to have them on the court. And when you do, what appears to be a small difference quickly turns into a big one as you expand sample sizes.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 12, 2010 11:01 PM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Which similar or better players signed for less?

Don’t say Childress because that was a 5 year deal. 5/30 isn’t less that 3/20.

by JSB on Jul 12, 2010 11:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

Your argument is based on a mountain of terrible logic

Who the hell wants to pay Reddick $7M/yr?

First off, it’s not quite $7 mil/year, but whatever. Second, to answer your question, I do, the Bulls do, and the Magic are at least thinking about it. In fact, I think in Redick, you’re getting a bargain. Ray Allen just got a 2 year $20 million deal and on a per-minute basis, they were the same player last year. For Redick to be overpaid, there need to be more players of similar quality making less than players of similar quality making more. Well, I just gave you one player of similar quality making more, so it’s now on you to show me one similar player making less (rookie contracts don’t count).

The length of contract thing is sort of a non-issue too. Is anyone going to consider it a good outcome if we figure out Reddick is a waste halfway through this year, and we’re "only" stuck with him two and a half more years?

There’s no way you actually believe this. If you do, you’re simply delusional. The length of contract is absolutely an issue. If we find out Redick is a waste halfway through the year, we’re stuck with him 2 and a half more years, but if Detroit finds out Gordon is a waste halfway through the year (as they did), they’re stuck with him 4 and a half more years. Length on contract certainly matters in this and all instances because any player on a 5 year deal is going to be a much bigger risk than a guy on a 3 year deal, because anybody, at any time can blow out their knee and watch their career go down the drain. And the more years you commit to a guy, the more you stand to lose if something like that does happen; hence, more risk.

Let’s say on a scale of 1 (Eddy Curry) -10 (Lebron), Gordon is something like a 7 in terms of the productivity he adds to the team. The average starter is a 5. Reddick and Korver are like a 4 and a 3. Lets be charitable to the argument and say a minsal backup (say, Luther Head) is a 2.
So if you play Gordon 33 and Head 15, you get productivity of 33*7 + 15*2 = 261.
Play Redick and Korver similar minutes and you get productivity of 33*4+15*3= 177.

That’s a massive load of bullshit and you know it. Arbitrarily scaling players on a 1-10 scale and using that to estimate production is simply retarded.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 12, 2010 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Not to mention he totally ignores the idea of fit

If you look around the NBA, the best teams have 3-5 players that are their “core.” Instead of filling in the rest of the roster with players like Ben Gordon, they fill it in with role players on short-term contracts that fit what they are trying to do.

Good examples of this are the Lakers, Magic, Heat (next year) and Celtics. I think that is the strategy the Bulls are going with this off-season. Rose, Boozer, Noah and Deng are our “core.” We are filling that around with role players. I like the strategy the Bulls are employing. We may not have the most names or most raw talent, but we are compiling a roster that fits.

by JSB on Jul 12, 2010 11:47 PM CDT up reply actions  

OK, point by point
I do, the Bulls do [think Reddick is worth his not quite $7M/yr deal

I suspect the former is heavily affected by the latter. The Magic have an entirely different situation, since they have continuity and contention to worry about.

There’s no way you actually believe this. If you do, you’re simply delusional.

Thanks and go fuck yourself!

And when you’re done with that, quite being so simplistic…

The length of contract is absolutely an issue. If we find out Redick is a waste halfway through the year, we’re stuck with him 2 and a half more years, but if Detroit finds out Gordon is a waste halfway through the year (as they did), they’re stuck with him 4 and a half more years. Length on contract certainly matters in this and all instances because any player on a 5 year deal is going to be a much bigger risk than a guy on a 3 year deal, because anybody, at any time can blow out their knee and watch their career go down the drain. And the more years you commit to a guy, the more you stand to lose if something like that does happen; hence, more risk.

… Gordon suffered a serious injury, after which he didn’t play well. Prior to, he was playing outstanding ball. Given the entirety of his career, the very obvious conclusion (buttressed by the fact he had surgery immediately after the season) is that he was playing injured.

But in practice, players generally recover from injuries, and major injuries are fairly rare. So if Gordon gets hurt in year one of his deal, he’s probably fine in years 2-5. Likewise for Reddick. To make it an apples to apples comparison, however, you have to consider the possibility that Reddicks’s replacement might end up getting hurt too. Once you add the injury element to both sides of the equation, the way you need to, it mostly factors out.

Translation… a player on a longer contract is not a “much bigger” risk. By any standard actuarial practice, the additional risk is the cumulative probability of loss on the contract, and since career destroying injuries are pretty rare, the expected value of the risk is going to be low all around.

More importantly though, I’m talking about the effect on the basketball court, and you’re talking about the effect on Jerry Reinsdorf’s bank account.. I’m sure he’d be more upset if we signed up Redick for 5 years and he went off for a Jay Williams joy ride than if he did it after signing a 3 year deal (though insurance would make up most of it in either case), but the cap ramifications, and our options for coping with the situation would be little different. In either case, the player would be off the salary cap in a year. In either case, insurance would be paying 80% of the actual salary. In either case, the Bulls would be over the salary cap, so their means of replacing the guy who’s lost would be the MLE. We aren’t going to be under the cap either in three years or five years.

So basically, if you fully understand the rules, it is pretty much a wash.

Arbitrarily scaling players on a 1-10 scale and using that to estimate production is simply retarded.

The only difference between that and abstractly saying something like “Gordon’s better” (which you said) is that I’m at least attempting to provide a framework to explain “how much” better. You can disagree with the scale, but if you’re just offering some sort of abstract and undefined alternative, you’re not even making a big boy argument.

In any case, the point of providing a scale wasn’t precision. The point was to provide a range of how much “better” Gordon might be. As I pointed out, even if Gordon were only measured by a scale to be a little bit better than Reddick, it’d still likely work out to be better to have Gordon.

If you simply disagree with what you previously said, and want to argue that Gordon is not actually better than Redick, I suppose I can at least respect the consistency of that sort of argument.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 12:14 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

Injury is only one of the ways in which a player's production can dramatically tail off

But it is the most common one. While instant career-ending injuries are few and far between, more minor injuries that merely diminish production are much more common. Elton Brand, Peja Stojakovic, Tyson Chandler, and Michael Redd are all pretty recent examples (and there’s a million more examples) of a fine player getting a big contract that turned into a bad contract because of injuries. That risk is inherent with any big contract.

Also, unfortunately for us, the effect of a bad contract on the basketball court and its effect on Jerry Reinsdorf’s wallet are very correlated.

And finally, regarding your “Ben Gordon is a 7 argument,” I’m not arguing with your scaling. If you believe that Ben Gordon is a 7 on a 1-10 scale and that Redick is a 4, fine. What I’m taking issue with is the next step you take, in which you seem to think that multiplying the minutes a player will get by his rating gives you a meaningful, accurate measurement of his productivity. That’s just stupid.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

But those guys largely suffered their injuries at the end of their deals

Getting hurt in year 4-6 of a six year deal, though, isn’t any different in effect than getting hurt in 1-3 of a three year deal. So guys like Tyson and Redd weren’t especially bad owing to getting injured on long contracts. Tyson got hurt in year 4 of a six year deal.

The risk is guys like Brand and Peja who get hurt on the front end, and then come back healthy enough to play, but not at a very high level. But signing those guys wasn’t just bad luck, it was stupidity. In both those cases, they suffered their injuries before they signed their contracts with their new teams. It was simply foolish to sign a guy like Brand to that deal when he was coming off a torn Achilles, not bad luck.

Which gets back to the point that the marginal risk, whatever it is, is a fairly small one. And again, from a basketball perspective, the replacement issue is pretty much the same.

Regarding the productivity argument, what sort of meaning does productivity have if it doesn’t mean that over time, if you play the more productive guy, you accrue additional benefits?

That’s actually what productivity means. What would be stupid would be the opposite; saying, for example, that you’ve established an estimate of a player’s ability, but that it somehow has no validity when actually applied to a playing the players.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 12:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

You are fighting a losing battle

Signing a player in their late 20s to a 5 year deal as compared to a 3 year deal is more risky. It’s a matter of logic. Anything adverse (injury, sudden decline, ineffective fit with the team) that could happen in years 1-3 of a a 1-3 year deal also could happen in a 4-5 year deal. But, if it does happen there is less lost with a 1-3 year deal. The upside of a 4-5 year deal from the team’s perspective is that you might lock in an asset at a price that is better than what you would pay on the open market for years 4 and 5. That is the only reason for a team to prefer a 4-5 year deal.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

When was Gordon in his late 20's?

To bring it back to the relevant topic.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 8:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

The longer a deal is, the more likely a player is to get hurt at some point during the course of that deal

When you sign a player to a 3-year deal, getting hurt in year 4 is obviously not an issue. Maybe Brand was a bad example, because he was hurt before he signed the contract, but I got a million more. What about Grant Hill? Allan Houston? The list goes on.

Regarding the productivity argument, what sort of meaning does productivity have if it doesn’t mean that over time, if you play the more productive guy, you accrue additional benefits?

You’re right it does mean exactly that. I’m not arguing that. I’m saying that quantifying it as arbitrarily as you are is dumb. Statisticians have tried for years to quantify production (see PER, eWins, WARP, etc.) using methods much more scientific than “I’m gonna give this guy a 7” and still end up producing heavily flawed metrics.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 1:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

Grant Hill was injured before his contract with the Magic

Houston made it three years into his contract before his big knee injury. It was ill advised because it was a terrible contract across the board.

So none of your examples have actually been good examples yet.

You say you’re not arguing it, but then you’re trying to dismiss the entire concept based on the irrelevant fact of how I came up with an approximate number.

You could substitute in PER instead of 7 and 4 and arrive at the same conclusion. But there’s no point in being absurdly and overly scientific. Like, if you ask me how far it is from my house to my kid’s school, I’ll say “about a mile”. I could spend a lot of time scientifically determining the exact distance by using a tape measure, a GPS, Google maps, or whatever. But no matter how precise I get the answer is still gonna be “about a mile”.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 1:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hill’s injury at the time seemed relatively minor. Nobody could’ve predicted that it would end up wrecking his career. And Houston’s contract would’ve been okay if he hadn’t gotten hurt and maintained his production. Just like Peja, Chandler, and Redd would’ve been fine contracts had they not fizzled out with injuries.

You say you’re not arguing it, but then you’re trying to dismiss the entire concept based on the irrelevant fact of how I came up with an approximate number.

Your approximation isn’t irrelevant. It’s the whole basis of your argument. The claim you’re trying to make is that Ben Gordon playing 33 mpg + some minsal backup playing 15 mpg will give you more production than Redick playing 33 mpg + Korver playing 15 mpg. You’re trying to mathematically justify that claim, but an accurate measure of “productivity” simply does not exist. The closest and best thing would be something like WARP or eWins, but those are flawed to the point where they would prove nothing (although if you want to go dig them up, feel free). Multiplying PER by minutes played doesn’t produce a meaningful statistic. It just doesn’t work like that, and it was never intended to. Multiplying your arbitary 1-10 rating by minutes played is also nonsense.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 1:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually I take part of that back

Looking over Allan Houston’s numbers, I realize I’d forgotten how mediocre he was. Yeah, that contract was terrible.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 2:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Blah
an accurate measure of "productivity" simply does not exist. The closest and best thing would be something like WARP or eWins, but those are flawed to the point where they would prove nothing (although if you want to go dig them up, feel free).

In other words, an approximation is irrelevant because even if I used an uberscientific method, you’d simply fall back on saying it’s flawed, proves nothing, and can’t be used to measure anything meaningful.

Got it!

In reality, you can approach it completely intuitively if you’re not mathematically intuitive too. If you want to say Gordon is better than Reddick, ok, go with that. If that “betterness” isn’t realized over the course of playing 30+ mpg during a season, then it’s not really any meaningful sort of betterness, is it?

So leave the stats out and simply follow your intuition. Gordon is better than Redick and they will play the lion share of the minutes.

So to outweigh whatever the difference between Gordon and Redick is, Korver has to be much, much better than the cheaper replacement player who would back up Gordon to compensate for the fact that he’ll likely only play a few minutes a game.

Again, this is easy to think of mathematically, but in reality it’s not a math trick, it’s simply a representation of the underlying facts.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 2:16 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

You just don't get it.

Gordon is better than Redick, but Korver’s better than whoever Gordon’s backup is going to be. In this situation, it absolutely matters how much better Gordon is than Redick and how much better Korver is than his backup. Just as easily as you did, I could arbitrarily assign ratings to Gordon, Redick, Korver, and Gordon’s backup so that Gordon>Redick>Korver>Gordon’s backup and when you multiply those ratings by minutes played, Redick + Korver come out as better in the end. But again, that would be meaningless.

Once again, minutes played x PER does not give you anything meaningful. Minutes played x any arbitrarily given rating also doesn’t give you anything meaningful, because since one of the inputs was subjectively determined, the end result will be too.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 2:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Uh, no.

I just took math out of the question for you, and it appears you still aren’t getting it.

I did, however, point out the obvious fact that you only get, on average, 1/3 of a game of Korver being better than his alternative while you get 2/3 of a game of BG better than Redick.

. Just as easily as you did, I could arbitrarily assign ratings to Gordon, Redick, Korver, and Gordon’s backup so that Gordon>Redick>Korver>Gordon’s backup and when you multiply those ratings by minutes played, Redick + Korver come out as better in the end. But again, that would be meaningless.

OK, try it. The numbers aren’t arbitrary, they express a basic preference ordering which you’ve agreed to. In fact, if you go back and look at the values I assigned, I did assign them so that Gordon>Redick>Korver>Gordon’s backup.

Even if you assign the numbers as close as you like- say 4>3>2>1, it still
A. Makes sense to play the better player a bigger minute distribution
and
B. Is still true that the 4/1 combination outweighs the 3/2 combination.

Arbitrarily choosing the numbers would be chosing numbers that likely don’t make any sense. To overcome the fact that Korver plays less, for the marginal productivity increase over his backup to be determinative, he’d have to be absurdly better than Gordon’s notional backup. Which seems pretty unlikely, even if we all agree he’s likely somewhat better.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 7:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

What if we go on a 1-12 scale and say...

Gordon = 9
Redick = 8
Korver = 6
Gordon’s backup = 3

There. Happy? That obviously conclusively proves that Redick and Korver are better, right?

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 8:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

The numbers are just a method of getting at the underlying beliefs

So what you’re saying here is that to be worth it, Korver has to be twice as good a player as Gordon’s backup.

That seems fairly implausible to me in a world where you can go out and get a guy like Head for pretty much the minimum. Is Korver really twice the player that Head is? I doubt it.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 8:47 AM CDT up reply actions  

By the way, I'd somebody wants to dig up the APM on gordon, korver, redick, and say, flip Murray, go right ahead.

But wihout looking at them, I would guess that the overall difference is going to be very marginal either way, to the point where it’s inconclusive, especialling when you consider that we have a very small sample size on redick to work with.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 3:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Murray and Gordon have often been zero sum to a little positive

Korver was horrible until this past season when he shot 54% from three. Redick has been horrible.

Take all that for what you will.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 5:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

So what are you so supposed to do?

I think most everyone agrees Gordon > Reddick > Korver > Gordon’sBackUp, but, if you’re discussing an either or, you absolutely must come up with some sort of value to it. You seem to say that it’s impossible to decide therefore none of it matters, and there’s no point.

But I could just as easily take that argument to Wade > Reddick > Korver > Wade’sBackup and no one would say it’s pointless. That’s because Wade is far and away better than Redick as to be obvious.

The idea is not flawed, it’s simply the preciseness of it that is. That doesn’t make any of it meaningless to try to do, though.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rationally debating the two alternatives is what you can do

Using APM would be effective as well. Any rational thinking person who knows basketball would obviously agree that wade’s better than redick+korver and I’m sure APM backs that up. Between Redick+ korver and Gordon, it’s a lot closer. If your or Sports2 believes that Gordon is better, fine, i can respect that opinion. What I’m taking issue with is sports2’s silly notion that he proved the matter by arbitrarily assigning ratings to players and doing a bunch of meaningless math based on those arbitrary ratings. If people could quantify basketball production like that, being an NBA GM would be the easiest job in the world.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you want to dig up APM, BTW, go ahead.

But wihout looking at it, I would guess that the overall difference is going to be very marginal either way, to the point where it’s inconclusive, especialy when you consider that we have a very small sample size on redick to work with.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 3:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you could, then you should

I don’t have time to do it, but you weight the PER for each of those players to come up with a good career approximation and then multiply them by that minutes number to prove your point.

Just so you know, Ben Gordon’s PER numbers have never been fantastic. He has had one season of 18+, but other than that he has vacillated between 13 and 17. Those aren’t really good numbers when you consider his usage is has always been between 23 and 27. Redick put up a 15.03 PER last year with a usage of only 17.1.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 2:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

"The longer a deal is, the more likely a player is to get hurt at some point during the course of that deal"

No, the probability of a player getting hurt is independent. So yes, if you sign a guy to a 3 year deal, you don’t worry about him getting hurt in year 4. But you do worry about the replacement for that player getting hurt in year 4.

Suppose you sign player A to a 3 year deal. The probability he suffers a major injury is probably around 5% each year. After three years, you sign player B to a three year deal. His probability of getting hurt is also 5% each year.

If you sign player C to a 6 year deal, and he’s also got a 5% chance of getting hurt each year, the cumulative probability is the same either way.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 1:39 AM CDT up reply actions   2 recs

You should ask for your money back

The probability of two players getting injured during a three year span is much lower than the probability of one player getting injured in a six year span.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 12:49 PM CDT up reply actions  

I'd like to see you do the math

p that both player A AND B get hurt is very low. Lower than p C gets hurt.

However, p that either A OR B gets hurt will be greater than p C gets hurt.

The probability of C staying healthy over a 6 year contract (with a 3% annual chance of getting hurt) is 83%.

The probability of both A & B staying healthy over 3 year contracts is also 83%.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

That was my point
p that both player A AND B get hurt is very low. Lower than p C gets hurt.

You get two players instead of one and it is unlikely they both get hurt. Therefore signing two players is a less risky investment.

by JSB on Jul 15, 2010 10:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

That assumes that the probability of a player getting hurt is constant, which it isn't

As player’s get older, the probability of getting injured decreases.

Also, if a player you signed to a 6-year deal gets hurt in years 1-3, that injury will affect that player for the rest of the 6 year, whereas in your first example player A getting hurt has no effect on player B.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 2:31 AM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

The first thing you’re saying doesn’t make any sense, and as far as I know, isn’t true. Unless we’re talking about guys in their late, late 30s, generally the probability of getting injured will be constant.

It appears differently because injuries and poor play create an obvious selection bias within the sample. You’re factoring out all the Robert Swifts, Marcus Fizers, and Ron Mercers on the world, who get hurt early in their careers and and are never right again.

Also, if a player you signed to a 6-year deal gets hurt in years 1-3, that injury will affect that player for the rest of the 6 year, whereas in your first example player A getting hurt has no effect on player B.

Yes, I’ve already stated this is the actual additional risk. However, it’s a fairly small one. Taking the 5% risk (which I think if we limit the risk down to suffering a career debilitating but not ending injury – the subject of our question), a player has an 85% chance of staying healthy over the first three years of his deal.

If you discount the rate to, say, 3% (which I tend to think is more accurate given the fact that most players recover fairly quickly from most injuries), the player has a 91% chance of playing healthy for his first three years.

Interestingly, when you add two players to the mix, you’re employing a different strategy than what you think. You’re limiting your expected loss, but you’re slightly increasing the chance you’ll suffer some loss, since, if you’ve got 2 above replacement bodies instead of one, you have twice as much chance of one of them getting injured.

That is, the chance of both Korver and Redick both making it three years without suffering an injury is only about 83%, vs. a 91% chance a single player stays healthy over that time period.

With one guy on a 6 year deal, you have something like a 9% chance of a $40M loss.With two guys on 3 year deals, you have something like a 17% chance of a $6M loss.

The expected value of the 9%/$40M combo is roughly $4.5M
The expected value of the $17%/%6M combo is roughly $1M

So you do minimize the risk by signing two guys, but the expected value of the risk we’re talking about is only a couple million bucks at most.
With two

You also run into another problem

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 8:29 AM CDT up reply actions  

Oops

You also run into another problem… there’s costs associated with signing guys to new contracts.

We’re not talking about a free market in interchangeable commodity players here. So there are issues associated with having to re-sign or replace the guy on a 3 year deal that you don’t have if you have an acceptable player locked in.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 8:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Considering CBS issues

More likely than not, you will be able to re-sign at a lower price in 3 years.

by JSB on Jul 15, 2010 10:16 AM CDT up reply actions  

Also

You’ve yet to give me one example of a player of Redick’s caliber who signed a contract on the open market for less than what Redick got from the Bulls.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 12:37 AM CDT up reply actions  

Who are the players, aside from Lebron and Wade, that signed contracts this summer?

I mean, those guys are the only players out there of Redick’s calibre, right?

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 12:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

I never implied that Redick is of Lebron's or Wade's caliber

Ridiculing me by implying that I did gets you nowhere.

One thing I did say was that Ray Allen, who on a per-minute basis is Redick’s equivalent, got a significantly bigger contract than Redick. You’ve yet to give me one example of a player comparable in quality to Redick who’s signed for less.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 1:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Actually ridiculing you is kind of entertaining

But I’d be happy to stop if you’ll cut out impugning my motives and honesty. Ridiculing you will keep me entertained, but attacking my honesty will get you ridiculed.

I think your perspective on Redick is way out of whack. Allen and Redick are comparable per-minute, but that ignore the fairly obvious point that Redick is taking advantage of opportunities created by better teammates, whereas Allen is generating those numbers while being one of those better teammates who creates opportunities for others. And the fact that Allen is getting paid for past performance and loyalty.

The larger point is that Redick made the most of a good situation as a shooter. Put Morrow or Head or Foye on that team, and they’d produce better than what they showed in terrible situations. Team factors tend to lead us to overrate role players on good teams and often underrate role players on bad teams. So I figure most of those guys are more or less comparable.

Korver is pretty comparable, and we’ve already signed him, which is why the Redick signing is even more pointless.

Also, it’s sort of a strawman to limit the analysis to players who signed for less. Why not be willing to pay more if, you know, a player is actually better.

A guy like Childress is bringing a different set of skills to the table, but picture him on the Magic. They’re different, but probably better. They’ve already got plenty of guys who can shoot the three, but they’d be better with Childress as a defender than yet another shooter who couldn’t stop Ray Allen in the playoffs.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 2:00 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I like Foye

I would take Foye for 2 years $8.5 million in a heartbeat. That’s good value.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 2:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Yuck.

I hate Randy Foye.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 12:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well,

What’s to like about him?

Inefficient scorer. Terrible defender. Decent 3 point shooter but not great.

Pretty much his only value is as a second ball handler, but you can get Ronnie Brewer to do that and provide you with excellent perimeter defense.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 2:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

is he a terrible defender?

a shooter who can play backup point, meh. we’re talking about the bench they’re going to have flaws.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2010 2:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

yes he is a really really bad defender.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 3:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you really think ridiculing me is entertaining, keep on going

Although I’d recommend getting a girlfriend or something. I’m not questioning your motives or your honesty. I just think you’re wrong on a lot of points.

Sure, Redick does benefit by taking advantage of opportunities created by his teammates, but Allen is in the exact same situation in Boston. If you think Allen is substantially better at creating for himself and others than Redick is at this point in his career, you haven’t seen either of them play very much recently. In fact, Redick’s AST% was higher than Allen’s last year. Redick’s improved to the point where he’s more than just a spot-up shooter, and Allen’s regressed to the point where he’s barely more than just a spot-up shooter.

And maybe you’re right that Morrow, Head and Foye would’ve produced better in Orlando, but those guys are lacking compared to Redick in other facets of the game besides shooting the ball.

Long story short, Redick is much better than you think he is. He’s not just a guy who stands around and shoots 3s (that’s all Korver, Morrow, and Head do). Here’s a scouting report on him if you don’t want to take my word for it.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 2:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

LOL at the get a girlfriend lameness

I’m way too repugnant to have a girlfriend. But yes, when you’re saying things like “thats bullshit and you know it” you are questioning someone’s honesty and you better be prepared for a response.

Since you point out AST%, I checked and Korver’s assist % is the same at Redick’s. Foye’s is much higher. They all rebound at about the same or better rate than Redick. The steal the ball more frequently. They don’t, as far as I know, have Redick’s tiny little T-Rex arms.

The only tangible statistical area where Redick is better than those guys is in his shooting and TO rates. And those are the areas that are most likely to be affected by playing on a good team vs. a bad team.

Players on good teams get better looks and don’t have to work as hard to create shots, which leads to more TOs. Players on bad teams face just the opposite problems.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 8:43 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

What about FT rate?

Redick got to the line over twice as much as korver on a per-minute basis last year. If that’s not an indication that redick is creating for himself more than those other guys, i don’t know what is

And I’m sorry if you feel I was questioning your honesty. I just honestly believed you were smart enough to realize how muc nonsense you were spewing. Guess not.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 3:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

Wow, you're such a jackass

I try to have a reasonable debate with you, but all I get is sarcastic non-replies that ignore every point of contention I bring up. I think you said it best:

Thanks and go fuck yourself!

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 13, 2010 4:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

LOL

As you go through life, I think you’re going to find that most people don’t consider calling people stupid a very good attempt at reasoned debate.

Especially from someone who hasn’t demonstrated much competence in the area he’s debating. And who smells.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 4:28 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Don't be silly

Wesley freaking Matthews got 5 years and $35 million. Dude was an undrafted free agent last year.

Other shooting guards that have signed this off-season:

Joe Johnson: 6 years 120 million
Tony Allen: 3 years 10 million
Anthony Morrow: 3 years 12 million
John Salmons: 5 years 40 million
Luther Head: 2 years 2.3 million
JJ Redick: 3 years 19 million
Wesley Mathews: 5 years $35 million
Randy Foye: 2 years $8.5 million

For shits and giggles even though he really isn’t a 2 guard:

Josh Childress: 5 years 33 million

Which of these do you think is a player that is better than JJ that got paid less? I think there are some arguments to be made, but I wouldn’t say JJ’s contract is out of line.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 1:18 AM CDT up reply actions  

The problem is the Bulls don't have many assets

We won’t have high first round picks and we don’t have many cheap expendable young players. If those guys are available someone will be able to top our offer. The Hornets or Nuggets are going to ask for Derrick Rose for either one of the guys you mention.

by JSB on Jul 12, 2010 5:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

You don't need many assets if a team is dumping a guy.

You need cap space and a future 2nd round draft pick in many cases.

But the Bulls do have some assets; future 1st rd picks. It would make more sense acquiring known talent with those picks since they shouldn’t be in the lottery any time soon.

by kingj41 on Jul 12, 2010 6:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Pau was dumped for

money reasons. The Griz probably did their due diligence in scouting Marc, but really, that was more about not paying him.

Also see, the Suns dumping Boris Diaw. He wasn’t a stud, but he’s very worthy of a rotation spot.

That also applied to Brewer’s trade last year, and Eric Maynor’s trade. Jazz were focused on avoiding the tax.

I’d say those players, while not studs, are productive NBA players.

by kingj41 on Jul 12, 2010 6:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

But most..."superstars"

This is to what we are referring, right, “superstars”…most are traded for actual assets, not just a salary dump (unless the team’s hand is forced in a sign and trade)…KG, a superstar, was traded for Al Jefferson and a handful of useful players…Pau Gasol, as you mentioned, was traded for Marc Gasol, three first round picks, and random players who were later included in deals…Shaq (the first time), was traded for Lamar Odom and Caron Butler…

I am sure there are superstars that I am missing, but the point remains, they are very rarely traded as a salary dump…and at this point, the Bulls have very little in the way of assets (Taj) to offer a team looking to dump salary…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 12, 2010 11:45 PM CDT up reply actions  

The Bulls have just as many future firsts to offer as anyone else

More, actually, given that they own a likely lottery pick from the Bobcats.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 13, 2010 12:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

I never assumed

the targets were limited to ‘superstar’ players.
The terms discussed were more along the lines of acquiring a player whose contract was deemed ‘too much’ by a team.
More precisely those teams that are either paying the tax, close to the tax, or losing lots of money.

I was simply listing, from memory, guys that have been moved for those money reasons and the return on those haven’t been all that much. In my mind Shaq didn’t fit that criteria. Neither did KG. Those weren’t salary dumps.

by kingj41 on Jul 13, 2010 9:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

One of the basic premises of this long thread...
As a general rule, I wanted them to

1. Badger every GM who’s got a superstar and remotely considered trading them.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 11:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I guess you don't like reading.

The list consists of more than one item.

by kingj41 on Jul 14, 2010 11:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

You're right...

I should have looked more closely at your premise…


 You don’t need many assets if a team is dumping a guy.

You need cap space and a future 2nd round draft pick in many cases.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 12:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

the second sentence should have been block quoted

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 12:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

BUT... that was the work of

KAAAAAHHHNNNNNN!

Not a fair point.

If we aren't careful, the leanness we now feel will be the starvation of those we serve.

by Chi 'Till I Die on Jul 16, 2010 12:02 AM CDT up reply actions  

With all of the TPE's that are out there...

Cleveland, Toronto, Utah, Phoenix and teams with cap space (LA, New Jersey, Cleveland, New York); what would the Bulls have to offer these GM’s to differentiate themselves from the other teams in the market for a superstar?

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 12, 2010 11:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

If we are waiting for a Carmelo-type, we should just stand pat then

Acquiring other expensive assets that may not fit with what the Nuggets want isn’t a good course of action if we are trying to get Carmelo.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 12:22 AM CDT up reply actions  

What?

Because Cleveland was the only option I offered?

I will restate the question you ignored…What would the Bulls have to offer these GM’s to differentiate themselves from the other teams in the market for a superstar?

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 11:10 AM CDT up reply actions  

A realistic chance at contending, which said star would want
  • A likely Bobcats lottery pick that’s higher than they get elsewhere
  • A solid player like Gibson
  • Salary savings other teams might not be as willing to offer as you’d think

It’s not a single thing, it’s a combination of things, and it’s going to be subject to the whims of the player in question, and particular team situations at the moment.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

That Bobcats pick isn't as valuable as you think it is

It can’t be used until 2012 and even then it is heavily protected for a few years.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 11:19 AM CDT up reply actions  

The realistic chance at contending...

Assumes the player has any say so in where he is traded…The Bobcats pick (and other first rounders) are unknowns of essentially equal value…almost every team has an average player like Taj Gibson they would throw into a trade for a difference maker…whether or not a team is willing to leverage their salary flexibility is not something that I can debate.

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

Someone who hasn't watched the Bulls since Jordan retires might think this way...

If you haven’t watched the Bulls consistently since Jordan retired, I can see how you might have this attitude. This attitude might even work for baseball or football. But, in the NBA I don’t really see how you can have this attitude. I bet that Knicks, Pacers and Cavs fans enjoyed the 80s and 90s and would gladly go back to those days, even though they never won a title. This strikes me as the opinion of someone who has very little invested in the Bulls and will just tune them out if they aren’t the 90s Bulls. We should see them disappear very quickly in the coming days. I hate the “NBA hell” folks. NBA hell is the Clippers, Grizzlies or T-Wolves. NBA hell isn’t the Utah Jazz.

by JSB on Jul 11, 2010 4:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

huh?

I do not understand this comment at all.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 12, 2010 10:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought the 2010 gamble was worth it

The fact that it didn’t pay off doesn’t mean that it wasn’t worth a shot. Hell, if it wasn’t for the friendship of these guys it probably would have paid off. Now that we lost the gamble the Bulls should make the best moves they can to surround Derrick Rose with the talent necessary to win with him as a centerpiece and make sure that flexibility to add pieces isn’t destroyed. I would like to avoid as many 5-year contracts as possible.

by JSB on Jul 12, 2010 5:39 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

I really enjoyed watching the teams with Gordon, Tyrus Thomas, et al.

I think a team of:

Rose – Hinrich
Gordon – Hinrich
Deng – Luke Babbitt
Thomas – Gibson
Noah – Asik – Miller

would be way more entertaining (the past two years and going forward) than what the Bulls are proposing right now. Especially now that they have Thibodeau, I can’t imagine it NOT being a Top-5 defensive unit while slowly improving offensively.

And I was never for the 2010 plan because I believe that out of Bosh, Wade and James, and Amar’e, Boozer, Johnson, Lee and Gay, most of the players would either stay with their own team or be signed-and-traded. The Bulls didn’t even create enough space to get two max guys.

I was consistently saying over the past two seasons that the 2010 plan would fail. Just because it did, doesn’t make me right, I guess.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 9:07 AM CDT up reply actions  

We disagree then

I never was that big of a fan of Gordon, Thomas or Hinrich. Gordon and Thomas were very exciting players, but I never saw them as being building blocks of a championship team. I think Boozer is a huge upgrade over Thomas, and I am interested to see how having spot-up shooters on the wings works out. I could be wrong, but I think this team’s pieces fit together better than that team.

The only thing that I can see we lost out on was the 2009-2010 season. I don’t think the team would have had enough to get to the second round anyways.

As far as whether or not the 2010 gamble was realistic, I think that it was realistic. If the SuperFriends had gotten together we would have ended up with at least 1, maybe 2 of them.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 12:53 PM CDT up reply actions  

The thing I loved about that tam was defense.

I felt, if given an actually competent coach (say, Skiles or Thibodeau instead of Boylan or Del Negro), it could gel into one of the best defenses in the league, if not the best.

Add in Rose and Gordon and the efficiency of Noah and Deng and the continued improvement of Tyrus Thomas, and the team would continually improve on offense.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 5:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

I dont' understand your last point.

They couldn’t afford two, in the first place. And I don’t see how you can definitively say Chicago had some sort of favorites over the other.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 13, 2010 5:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think they could have cleared space to get two if necessary by trading Taj

The Bulls had the best players of any other team that had close to two max slots. That is unquestioned. There is a reason that so many players said that if he left Cleveland they expected him to come to either Chicago (winning) or New York (exposure). We will see how the season plays out. If the Bulls are no better than a 45 win team, then I agree that it was a mistake. If the Bulls win 50+ games and get a top 4 seed in the East, I think that is more than what that other team would have accomplished if it had been kept together. But, reasonable minds can disagree about it.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 9:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's a lot of generalizations there.

I guess I just don’t like the argument based upon: “If the guys had thought differently, then they would have thought about winning, and they would have thought about coming to Chicago first.” I could just as easily say: “If they cared so much about playing with friends and having a good time, they would have signed with New Jersey.”

From the reports we’ve heard, the guys had decided long ago they were all going to Miami. Any interest shown in Chicago was clearly just for fun or show or whatever.

Yes, Chicago represented the best chance of winning. But also represented a stifling, micro-managing front office… more importantly, not NYC or Jay-Z or crazy Russian billionaire owner. I don’t see how you could conclude to know what these guys’ preferences would have been.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 8:36 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hindsight

The whole “they always planned to go to Miami” stuff is hindsight. The Bulls didn’t know that, no front office knew it. We don’t know that the Bulls were the second option, but I do know that they made themselves a very attractive option. You can argue about whether the Bulls are better now or would be better if they had never embarked on the 2010 plan. You can’t argue that if the 2010 plan had worked they would be a championship contender for the next 5 years. The marginal downside of the 2010 plan failing was well worth the upside of potentially building a dynasty. The fact that it didn’t work out doesn’t mean it wasn’t a good gamble.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 11:21 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's fine.

I just think you’re defining “attractive” in one way: potential to win. I don’t think that’s the only it could be defined to these guys. Clearly, the Cavs knew this as they made a cartoon about him. The Nets knew this since they brought Jay-Z and they had nothing about “winning” to offer.

I think it was far more a gamble than people realize, especially at the time it was started. Well, I don’t think they even set out to do it until they traded away Nocioni. Not extending Gordon had nothing to do with going for 2010.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 11:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Winning is still probably the most important factor

I still think winning is the most important factor for these 3 free agents when everyone was offering a max (or near max deal). Those guys wouldn’t have gone to Miami if they didn’t think they were a lock to win multiple championships down there. Being with their buddies obviously was an attractive element, but I don’t think they would have done it if they didn’t think they would win.

So, you’re saying that not extending Gordon before the summer of 2009 had nothing to do with going for the big FA class? That probably makes sense. I am still torn on the Ben Gordon thing. I really don’t think he is worth what he is being paid, but it looks like he is better than what we are going to end up with. I still think at the time it was a prudent move.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 12:35 PM CDT up reply actions  

No, I don't think it is.

Reinsdorf made the offer and gave an arbitrary deadline. Gordon came back after the deadline and “accepted it”, but Reinsdorf had already decided (paraphrasing his words): after more consideration, we didn’t really think he was worth that much.

I mostly think it was ego. I don’t think 2010 was thought of as a possibility until A) the team was stuck in mediocrity, B) Nocioni sustained horribleness and a bad attitude (about losing, but still) and someone still wanted him and C) they were actually able to get good players on 2010 expiring deals.

I don’t think they would have traded Nocioni if they were just getting 2010 expiring deals and not decent talent. I think they may have done it if they would have got better talent but a longer, bigger contract.

I also think that, after the season, they had to sell the fans on the idea of 2010. I don’t think they ever had a shot at Wade or James until James lost in the playoffs, and I think they should have known that. Who knows about Bosh?

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 2:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

How much better would the Bulls have been with Gordon last year?

I don’t think they would have been that good, and certainly they wouldn’t have been a contender. With that in mind, I think it was worth the risk. I guess the fundamental difference is that you value Gordon/Thomas much more highly than I do. I just don’t think they are that good of players.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 2:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thibs!
KCJHoop
 Pete Myers coaching Bulls summer league team. Tom Thibodeau in his Berto office watching film of every Bulls game from last season.

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 9, 2010 1:34 PM CDT reply actions  

interesting

I would think Thibs would want to get his feet wet a little…but I guess there’s not too much coaching to do?

This at least solidifies that Pete will continue his lifelong quest of staying with the team I guess

by NormVanBeer on Jul 9, 2010 2:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I spent a lot of time working out trades, trying to make one that worked for every team.

and here’s one that basically should do.

http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=283w4te

throw in a 1st rounder (our’s / the Bobcats) to the 76ers and that’s a pretty fair deal to every team involved.

The Bulls get another star to complete a great lineup.

The Nuggets get a worse (but still above average) SF for Anthony, and get a good SG for their loss.

The 76ers aren’t really making a push for the championship this year, they need to build for the future. They’d get a 1st rounder (perhaps more than one; Idk about you, but I’d give up 2 for Carmelo) and multiple expiring contracts (unless they aren’t expiring – ESPN doesn’t do a very good job of getting the length of the contract correct.) You could replace JR Smith with A. Affalo if you feel like replacing it with lower salary or if JR Smith’s is not actually expiring.

Bulls improve.
Nuggets improve.
76ers get worse, but get a better chance to build for the future.

In other news, it’s a shame this will never happen.

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 9, 2010 6:56 PM CDT reply actions  

The only way this happens

Is if the Nuggets know that they can’t sign Carmelo. If they can’t, this might work. As a precursor to this move, I would have no problem trading for Iguodala if the 76ers are willing to give him up for Gibson and JJ + picks.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 7:50 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ya

This is not going to happen. Carmelo is going to sign an extension in Denver because of the looming new CBA.

by RM on Jul 9, 2010 9:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

Don’t see it happening. And if Melo decides he does want to leave Denver, he will hold out for NYC. Build a super-team there with Paul or Parker.

by JSB on Jul 9, 2010 9:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

I just don't see why that "super team" couldn't be Chicago with Drose and Carmelo.

Do you think Paul + Stoudemire is better than Rose + Boozer? Perhaps. But do you think the rest of the Knicks roster is anywhere near the Bulls? They’ve done a decent job of getting more depth this off-season, but I think we all believe the Bulls will be the better team going into this year and going into next year, so why would ‘melo save up for NY considering Paul’s not going anywhere till like 2012 or 2013?

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 9, 2010 10:01 PM CDT up reply actions  

...you got a link

or just going to keep saying that?

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 11, 2010 2:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

Find your own damn links

I don’t need to prove to you that I’ve seen endless speculation (through multiples forms of media) that Melo likes NY.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 11, 2010 2:52 PM CDT up reply actions  

you're proving my point.

It’s speculation, NOT fact.

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 11, 2010 3:40 PM CDT up reply actions  

endless speculation suggests Lebron wanted to go to New York a year ago!

gasp! perhaps its too early to endlessly speculate correctly.

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 11, 2010 3:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

you said "Word is"

if “Word is” means “random speculation by people who are paid to speculate”, than I will from here forth remember to ignore whatever the word is.

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 11, 2010 5:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

its all good

I apologize if I was rude. I just don’t want speculation of other people to ruin speculation of us. Since it’s all crap thrown out by minds that don’t really know the inside scoop, why should we let one effect the other?

point being, I’m full aware Carmelo probably won’t be traded. Why shouldn’t we discuss it? There’s no matter-of-factual point to suggest he’s staying, nor to suggest he’s heading to NY (until Chris Paul made those comments at his wedding this weekend.)

A true friend stabs you in the front - Oscar Wilde

by dantheman3k on Jul 12, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Rose, Noah, Boozer, and Deng should have a thing like
whatever the hell that crap in Miami was yesterday, at the UC. They could brag about how they’ll EASILY crush every other team, and how they’re the best 4 players EVER ASSEMBLED. We’d win because we’d have 4 players involved. compared to their 3 (see they should have invited Chalmers since he’s the only other player on their entire team).

It’s entirely possible that my complete and utter hatred for the so called ‘3 kings’ has crowded out all rational thought…

by kingles on Jul 10, 2010 12:52 PM CDT reply actions  

probably (you've lost all rational thought)

i think i would hate being around those 3 with all their inside jokes and huge egos. If anything ever goes wrong on that team you know they are going to blame the role players. Not saying I would turn down a contract offer, just that being around Bosh on a daily basis would probably force me to do 15 years to life.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 10, 2010 1:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

According to them, they will win muliple titles
regardless on whether they add you, me, or Pat Riley. They are so spectacularly superior to EVERYBODY else who’s ever played the game that it just doesn’t matter. I would suggest after that display yesterday, they are no longer in a position to blame whatever role players they get if they fail. They have already guarranteed many titles no matter who they add.

by kingles on Jul 10, 2010 1:32 PM CDT up reply actions  

That's not so true..

Kobe compares with either of Wade or Lebron. I think he’s for sure better than Wade, possibly better than Lebron. Gasol is a better overall player than Bosh, and a perfect player for the triangle. Then you have to consider whether you’d rather have Wade and some shlubs or have Bynum/Artest/Odom/Fisher. Overall, the Lakers may have more talent and still have the better team, IMO.

by dakoose on Jul 10, 2010 1:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Those aren’t my thoughts, that’s what the so called ‘3 kings’ were saying last night.

I think they still need several decent complementary players to beat the Lakers, especially a center. That is the crux of my ever increasing ill will towards them. They’re already talking about the many, many, titles that they are certain to win. Yet here they are in JULY on a team with only 4 players on it. They haven’t even won an exhibition game yet…

by kingles on Jul 10, 2010 2:07 PM CDT up reply actions  

how about this idea (no doubt brought up elsewhere already, but still)

If the Magic match on Redick, would they be more open to moving Vince Carter? I wouldn’t expect them to dump Carter to us outright, but say they’re looking for an upgrade at another position, and we could take Carter to facilitate a 3-team deal.

This is less the ‘swing for the fences’ move as it is acquiring an expiring contract (VC’s deal is non-guaranteed in ‘11-’12). But Carter is still really good, and he wouldn’t have to be burdened with carrying much with Rose and Boozer taking a lot of shots, and Rose handling the ball in final possessions.

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 10, 2010 1:57 PM CDT reply actions  

I don't think Carter has been discussed at all

but he is the type of guy the Bulls need. Good 1 on 1 scorer, decent defender, quality passer. Can get out on the break, has the occasional big game, and his contract expires next year giving us a shot at the ballyhooed Summer of 2011. But because he is an expiring contract, might Orlando want to keep him and make a run at Carmelo or some other star themselves? I don’t know where there cap space is.

In fact, if they don’t match Redick, it might be because they want to get under the cap for 11-12 and the new CBA.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 10, 2010 2:39 PM CDT up reply actions  

i was joking. Meant for all the people saying we should save cap space

and go after Melo. That plan has as much chance of working as the Lebron plan did.

Trading for Carter would preserve that crazy plan. But it would also mean we are taking a shot this year. And since Carter wouldn’t be expected to show up in the 4th quarter, perhaps he plays with a bit more vigor being the number 2 or 3 option at the end of games.

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 10, 2010 2:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

This is hilarious

Paul, Iggy, McGrady, Arenas, Evan Turner?! This ranges from the unattainble to the extreme panic reaction. Ok, if we’re going to fantasize, at least name someone who would be an ideal fit at the 2 and could play the 3 as well. Someone like Danny Granger.

by messwiththebull on Jul 11, 2010 6:01 PM CDT reply actions  

Danny Granger isn't a 2 at all. He's pretty much only a SF.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 11, 2010 6:19 PM CDT up reply actions  

Granger would be an idea fit at the 2? What are you basing that on.

He played 28% of his team’s minutes at the 3 last season, 29% of his teams minutes at the 4. And was actually statistically better at the 4 last season, at least offensively. http://www.82games.com/0910/09IND9.HTM

by Basketball Smurf on Jul 11, 2010 6:41 PM CDT up reply actions  

That being said, I'd probably give Granger a trial if Bird reasonable in his asking price

Granger is a bit overrated, and he doesn’t have the handle I’d like, but he’s certainly a good enough athlete to play the two. I do worry that Jim O’Brien might be ruining him as an all-around player and turning him into a chucker, but every time I’ve heard him, he seems like a good, smart kid. I think he could work.

A couple other guys I’d consider. Any possibility the Rockets would part with Trevor Ariza now that their big Bosh plan fell through? He’s not as strong as I’d like, but he’s a super athlete and a very good defender. Clearly he wasn’t good enough to carry the load, but he wouldn’t be asked to here. Ariza + Jared Jeffries for Taj seems at least plausibly equitable. I hate giving up Taj, but I’ll trade a backup for a 35mpg starter every day of the week.

James Harden is probably not feasible, but I’d make a similar sort of offer for him, just based on the fact that I really like him (good athlete, good defense, good handle, good shooter) and the Thunder seem to really love Thabo (and signed him to a long term deal) and keep acumulating other wing players (Cook, MoPete, Kyle Weaver) and I’m not really sure Westbrook will work out as a PG. Since they perpetually need bigs, maybe a swap of Harden for Taj plus some other stuff would work out well for both sides?

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by Sports2 on Jul 11, 2010 7:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

No way Harden is going anywhere.

Thabo will be the SG/SF backup to Harden and Durant by the end of the season. The Thunder were smart: they signed a starting SG at a backup SG/SF price, and now he’s going to be a backup SG/SF. Awesome.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 12, 2010 10:57 AM CDT up reply actions  

And, c'mon now, you're making yourself look ridiculous in suggesting Taj for Harden.

Oh, and MoPete was acquired only to get Aldrich. It could have been Aaron Gray or Darius Songaila if the contracts were the same. Cook was another freebie and had nothing to do with them looking for a fit. Kyle Weaver? Played 144 minutes last year. And how is Westbrook not a PG at this point? What does he need to change to be better? You’ve lost me now.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 12, 2010 11:03 AM CDT up reply actions  

I thought Weaver got hurt but they were high on him

Anyway, no, I don’t think Taj for Harden straight up would work.

However, I’ll maintain that:

Taj + Charlotte’s likely lottery pick (and we know Presti loves himself some picks) + taking on a salary like MoPete (since OKC isn’t necessarily of the richest blood)

is not ridiculous at all.

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by Sports2 on Jul 12, 2010 11:48 AM CDT up reply actions  

Anyway... Ariza

After sleeping on it, that seems feasible. Houston’s got KMart, Buddinger, and Battier.

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by Sports2 on Jul 12, 2010 11:51 AM CDT up reply actions  

His numbers indicate he's pretty comparable to Korver, Brewer, and Redick

By the numbers
In terms of assist . He and Korver are in the higher TO bracket, but I think that’s in large part because they actually did handle the ball some.

Ariza’s the only one who approached average in usage. The rest of them are mostly endpoint players.

Beyond the numbers, Ariza is a demonstrably better option. He’s the only guy of the four that combines the defense and the shooting we need in one package. No, he’s not a superstar player, but if the worst that can be said about him is he has some of the milder defects of the players we’re actually getting, but none of the major ones, then it’s not much of a criticism.

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by Sports2 on Jul 12, 2010 5:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, if the Bulls can get him and they haven't made the call yet, then they are stupid.

I don’t know why he’d be available, though. They just signed him last year and he wasn’t awful this year.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 12, 2010 5:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

Um,

idk if this was an anomaly, but his shooting last year seemed pretty atrocious. I haven’t checked the stats, but from the times I watched him…

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 12, 2010 9:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah

39.4% from the field last year, but that is well below average for him, probably because he was forced to be a primary offensive option. He could probably succeed more within the Bulls offense

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 12, 2010 9:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

He isn't really a shooter

Career .321% 3PT shooter. He is more valuable as a defensive player/slasher than as a shooter.

by JSB on Jul 13, 2010 2:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Hedo got traded

so any argument is invalid

by JustAnotherFan on Jul 12, 2010 4:15 PM CDT reply actions   2 recs

Poopsworld on Paul

HT to OSU BlazersFan on S2, I see that Poopsworld says:

According to sources, (Jeff) Bowers’ stance on not trading star guard Chris Paul and a hardline stance on the subject ultimately cost him his job. That stance combined with what some have labeled as a “sour” relationship with Chris Paul ultimately ended Bowers’ tenure with the team.

Paul has been extremely vocal about his unhappiness with where New Orleans is in terms of competing for a championship and Bower has done little in the eyes of ownership to defuse the situation in fact some say he’s fanned the flames. The inability to get Paul on board was a huge issue with ownership.

The team has begun a search for a new General Manager there was a strong sentiment in Las Vegas yesterday that Chris Paul is now clearly on the trading block with some executives saying they expected him to be traded in the coming weeks.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 11:22 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

No

Not unless we could have a guarantee of another superstar coming along with him somehow.

by DRose01 on Jul 14, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

What could the Bulls possibly offer other than Derrick Rose and cap space that would be more enticing to the Hornets

than what other teams will inevitably offer for the best PG since Magic?

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree

That was the point of my post. There is no way possible the Hornets are giving Chris Paul away. Being on the trading block doesn’t mean he will be free.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 12:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

If the Magic match Redick

We could offer something like
$15M in salary relief, Deng, Taj, and multiple firsts for Paul and Okafor.

What folks need to recognize is that other teams aren’t going to automatically offer their best players either. Because what would be the point for, say, the Blazers to trade Brandan Roy for Chris Paul?

He might be a marginally better player, but trades for superstars almost never go down like that (trading your best player for another team’s best player) because the reason one team acquires that player is to vault themselves into contention, and the reason the other team loses that player is that they’ve got to rebuild.

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 1:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

I still think the Bulls would find other teams would beat that sort of offer.Deng's value isn't great and

Taj is wildly overrated amongst Bulls fans. The cap relief and firsts would be the real get and even that wouldn’t be better than what many teams could offer because with a Rose Paul backcourt and the other talent on this roster, the Bulls would not be picking outside of the 20s for a long time.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 2:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Noah would have to go

If not best player, then certainly the second or third best player on the team acquiring the superstar would have to go. Noah is still a tremendous value, and would be way more palatable than Deng. The Bulls basically tried to give Deng away two weeks ago and really couldn’t find a taker. I don’t think he has a ton of value. We can’t assume that teams will make a terrible deal, maybe they will, but we shouldn’t operate on that assumption.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 2:43 PM CDT up reply actions  

The only reason you have to include a player is if some other team is offering a better deal.

Who would we be bidding against in the process of getting Paul that we’d have to sweeten our offer with Noah?

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 3:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

No kidding

IF the best point guard in the league is actually on the trading block at a young age(no idea why…) then it’s EVERY GM’s job to make a serious offer.

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 14, 2010 4:36 PM CDT up reply actions  

The get with respect to Deng is losing Okafor

When I look around the league, I don’t see other teams that would offer a substantially different package

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 3:15 PM CDT up reply actions  

Two examples

The Sixers could offer a first round pick, Evan Turner and either Iguodala or one of their other young promising players (Louis Williams or Thaddeus Young).

Nets could offer a first round pick, Derrick Favors, and one of their other young players.

A Deng + first round picks + Taj offer would be so easy for anyone to beat.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 3:24 PM CDT up reply actions  

You're neglecting the financial implications

If the Hornets trade Paul, they want massive salary relief. A team under the cap can take Paul without giving anyone back. That save the Hornets $16M this year.

The Sixers can’t do that because they’re over the cap. The Hornets, if they’re trading Paul, are starting at Ground Zero, and they wouldn’t want to pay Iggy $12M this year and still field a shitty team.

The Nets, with Favors, are a more reasonable thought, but you also have to figure
1. Would Paul want to go there, given that they’re not very good. He might balk and make the deal unworkable.
2. Would it be worth it for the Nets if they no longer have the ability to hook Paul up with a possible franchise talent like Favors. They wouldn’t do that for the same reasons we wouldn’t trade Rose. Paul is great on his own, yes, but on his own he’s not going to vault you into contention. So a team that wants to be a contender is not going to offer its best player in the pursuit of Paul

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 3:44 PM CDT up reply actions  

You asked if someone could top our Deng pu-pu platter for Paul

I quickly threw out two possibilities. If I went through the entire league I could find probably a bunch more. Another example off the top of my head: the OKC Thunder. They could trade Westbrook + Harden + cap space. I won’t go on, but I just don’t think that Deng offer is even close to attractive enough to snag Paul.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 4:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

As I pointed out, your suggestions don't give the hornets or Paul what they want

And you continue to neglect the obvious financial issues in your responses. Unless a team is far enough under the cap to give the Hornets relief, it’s not gonna matter. Most teams aren’t.

Then, you have to see if Paul would even accept that team

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 5:01 PM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

He doesn't have a formal no-trade clause

But a team would be extremely foolish to trade for an All-NBA player who’s already asking for a trade out of his current city and doesn’t voice a willingness to come to your team.

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 6:04 PM CDT up reply actions  

Non-responsive

The Thunder are under the cap. They could give the Hornets relief. That actually is the best fit for Paul. I could find others, but I don’t have the time to do so. We aren’t getting Chris Paul unless Noah or Rose are in the deal. You can bank on that.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 6:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Clippers?

Baron Davis + Blake Griffin + draft picks for Chris Paul + Emeka Okafor?

Hornets get cap relief, a name player to sell to the fans and a potential future superstar.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 14, 2010 6:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Why would they take Davis?

If they’re clearing Paul, one of the reasons is because they think they have two capable guards already.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 6:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

If they take Davis, they can dump Okafor as well

I don’t think they’re trading Paul because they think they have two capable guards. I think they’re trading him because he wants out and might end up walking in free agency anyways. They might as well start rebuilding now, and bringing in a guy like Davis, who sounds much better than he actually he is to your average fan helps appease your fanbase.

It’s not a great package, but it’s better than anything the Bulls can offer unless we include Noah/Rose.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 14, 2010 6:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

There's no reason they'd dump Okafor for Davis

Okafor is at least playing in a need position and much younger. Davis actually played down there before (and they shipped him out of town for a dozen of yesterday’s donuts), so I don’t think he’s going to appease any fans.

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 7:18 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yeah I'm just spitballing here

But I really don’t see them trading Paul to us for Taj + Deng + cap space.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 14, 2010 11:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

Thunder are only like $6 million under the cap.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 6:25 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't even think they're under anymore

didn’t they use it to take on Mo Pete’s contract?

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by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 14, 2010 11:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

They're under it some.

But it wasn’t enough to make an offer to David Lee or other noticeable players. I’d have to look at all their transactions to be certain.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 15, 2010 8:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

Looks like they've got about $8M to me

http://sportstwo.com/s2/NBASalaries.php#jump_OKC

I could be off by a little, but I don’t think so. No meaningful cap holds or anything there, and they’ve got 15 guys already.

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by Sports2 on Jul 15, 2010 8:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

Perhaps. The Thunder could certainly make a credible offer

As I said though, it’s not obvious what everyone’s preferences are. Durant would be pretty good pairing, so I don’t see why Paul would object.

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 7:16 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think the Thunder can make an offer.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 15, 2010 8:13 AM CDT up reply actions  

Well, $8M in cap relief plus Westbrook and, say, Green seems good

As good as the Hornets could expect to get in terms of real talent. (I’d think Green would be the obvious choice rather than Harden, since the Hornets are shallower at the 3/4 spot)

Of course, the talent doesn’t fit all that well, since they seem to really love Thornton and Collison at the guard spots and would need to figure out how to balance them and Westbrook. And we don’t know what their preference is for financial relief vs. talent.

So I think it’s a reasonable thought, but until one knows what they’re really after in the trade, it’s hard to say whether it’s a better offer.

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by Sports2 on Jul 15, 2010 8:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Trading back Aldrich would be the most logical start.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 15, 2010 9:34 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Hornets would be idiots not to ask for Rose

They will get something very nice for Chris Paul. He has enough demand around the league (best young pg since Isaiah) that they will be able to extract a young star and draft picks.

by JSB on Jul 14, 2010 12:38 PM CDT up reply actions  

If he were/is on the market, could you make Paul/Rose work?

I say yes. Paul’s an excellent shooter, as well as a guy who can set up a dribble-drive scorer like Rose.

When in doubt, get supreme talent and try to make it work.

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by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 11:24 AM CDT up reply actions  

That's a much better idea

Than a Rose for Paul trade. A Paul/Rose backcourt would be amazing! Rose would need to take a huge stride defensively, but it could be amazing!

WTF would we have to give up to get him? Noah+ who else? Draft picks? Taj?

by DRose01 on Jul 14, 2010 11:26 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'd be willing to give up everything to get Paul and Rose together.

I don’t know how you build the team around that, but having the best offensive backcourt of all time is pretty exciting.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 11:40 AM CDT up reply actions  

I think making it work would be easy

Get athletic frontcourt players! Paul made Tyson Chandler look pretty darn good.

by DRose01 on Jul 14, 2010 11:45 AM CDT up reply actions  

Like that guy we let go for a crappy future Bobcats pick? Crap.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

The Bobcats seem to think they have a chance at CPIII

Among the speculation, they have Dampier’s contract, Gerald Wallace and CPIII is apparently very close friends with their owner…

Thomas, Miller, Salmons, James, Pargo, Gray, MLE, and (there is no LLE thanks to the Pargo signing) will not be here with a Max Free Agent...don't get too attached.

by Dionysus2.0 on Jul 14, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

That would be an absolute coup for the Bobcats and it would make sense of MJ's nixing of the Calderon trade to make an equally bad

deal just to nab Dampier’s contract.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 14, 2010 12:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

OTOH, the idea that Jordan only did it to save money seems logical enough to me, too

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

If Damp's contract was a key peice

you’d think we would have at least heard rumors about Cuban offering Damp + Kidd for CP3 & Okafor or something

by reprisal on Jul 14, 2010 2:11 PM CDT up reply actions  

Actually, I thought I did read a blurb that Cuban wanted him

Maybe he’s sitting there kicking himself right now because he went ahead with moving Dampier figuring Paul was off the table. But now, Paul is suddenly back on the table with Bower’s exit.

Or maybe it’s the opposite. Perhaps Bower’s firing was an attempt to appease Paul and keep him around. It could be read that way too. In that case, he’s really not on the market.

But you gotta call and see

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 3:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

Except they didn't save money

I’d like to congratulate Michael Jordan on being the first executive in history to avoid saving money in a salary dump. Tyson Chandler and Alexis Ajinca have one year left at a combined $14.1 million, while Eduardo Najera and Matt Carroll are owed a combined $17.1 million over the next three years. Throw in cash (presumably the maximum allowable $3 million) from Dallas, and the Bobcats managed to break even while giving away their starting center for two guys who will occupy seats 11 and 12 at the end of the bench.
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/columns/story?columnist=hollinger_john&page=Chandler-100713

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 14, 2010 5:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

the difference between taking on calderon and reggie evans

as opposed to carroll and najera. Sicne that was virtually a done deal, that’s how some see it as saving money.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 6:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

Interesting

The MJ connection would make sense there, but would Paul really want to spend his time playing with Boris Diaw as the second best player on that team?

Ick.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 14, 2010 2:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

Nobody can make tyrus Thomas better. He's already the greatest!!!!

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Free Gerald Henderson!!!

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 14, 2010 2:20 PM CDT up reply actions  

truth

the bulls should trade rose for allen iverson and deng for tracy mcgrady, that way they have more experience, thats what they can use

Ricky Rubio

by RickyRubio24 on Jul 16, 2010 9:57 PM CDT reply actions  

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