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Redick's Gone. What now?? Three trades worth considering.

I was trying to be optimistic, but alas, the Magic will match the Bulls' offer sheet to J.J. Redick, leaving the Bulls with a serious void at shooting guard, and less than ideal free agent candidates to fill said void.  So what next?

While Kyle Korver isn't a bad piece, he's not a starter.  Neither is Ronnie Brewer, Roger Mason, or Eddie House.  If the Bulls hope to contend with Miami, Orlando, and the Lakers, it will require a legitimate starting two guard capable of - at a minimum - knocking down threes and playing solid defense.  With Redick off the market, these attributes simply don't exist in any of the remaining free agents.  Therefore, I'd target the following three players via trade, who not only possess the attributes mentioned above, but also might conceivably be available at some point between now and the trade deadline: Courtney Lee, O.J. Mayo, and Rudy Fernandez

While the chances of acquiring one of these players is admittedly small, each plays on a team containing a glut of guards (ahh, the good old days!), a perilous financial situation, or both, and might therefore be viewed as reasonable trade targets.

Star-divide

The Nets have tons of guards/wings, but scarcely any frontcourt depth.  They essentially have two legit or fringe starters at every guard/wing position: Devin Harris and Jordan Farmar at PG, Anthony Morrow and Courtney Lee at SG, and Travis Outlaw and Terrence Williams at SF.  On the other hand, the only player of note behind Favors and Lopez in their frontcourt is Josh Boone.  You'd think a redistribution of resources might be in order.  JJ and a first rounder for Lee?  Some might complain that a first rounder is too much for Lee, but he can defend and hit the three when he's open.  Plus he's proven he can start on an elite team.

The Memphis Grizzlies are similarly overloaded at the 2 spot with a depth chart featuring O.J. Mayo, talented rookie lottery pick, Xavier Henry, and defensive ace, Tony Allen.  However, while New Jersey is owned by a free-spending Russian billionaire looking to build and legitimize the franchise, Memphis' majority owner is the notoriously cheap Michael Heisley, who has been openly pining to sell his controlling interest for some time now.  Between Rudy Gay's freshly inked $80 million extension and the investment of a lottery pick in Henry, one would imagine that Mayo is not in Memphis' long term plans.  Perhaps Memphis would entertain a package consisting of a 2011 first rounder (the Bulls' or Charlotte's) and Taj Gibson.  Sounds like a lot, but Mayo gives the Bulls a legit starter for years to come at shooting guard who can knock down the three and would flourish defensively in Coach Thibs' system.  Easier to find a backup PF than a starting SG with a complete set of skills.  However, I would imagine that JR wouldn't be too keen on spending to re-sign Mayo in addition to Rose and Noah in the next few years on top of existing large contracts with Boozer and Deng.

Rudy Fernandez would also be a nice catch, and has the potential to be a long term solution to the Bulls' shooting guard woes, as well as the ability to play either wing position.  After stealing away Wesley Matthews from the Jazz and trading up in the draft for rookie shooting phenom, Luke Babbit, the Blazers are pretty stacked with starters and rotation players on the wing, with Brandon Roy, Jerryd Bayless, and Nicolas Batum, in addition to the aforementioned Matthews, Babbit, and Fernandez.  Add in Fernandez' growing discontent over playing time, and something's gotta give.  My guess is either they trade him now, or they will likely be faced with losing him back to Spain.  Perhaps JJ and a second rounder or two would do the trick now that Pritchard is gone.  If not, throw in a first rounder.  Rudy has the shooting range and athletic prowess to be a major contributor to a Bulls team with a definitive void at shooting guard.

This might all be yet another unrealizable pipedream like Lebron, Wade, Bosh, and J.J. Redick(!), but it's certainly a stab in the dark that's worth looking into...especially when the alternatives include Roger Mason, Rafer Alston, and Tracy McGrady.

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JJ + 1st rounder for Lee would be swell. Not completely sure the Nets bite on that though.

Mayo’s a pipe dream. Even if Memphis decides to trade Mayo, they’ll be able to net a much nicer package than anything we have to offer.

Definitely in favor or getting Rudy, but again, I’m not sure Portland moves him for just JJ + a 1st rounder.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 16, 2010 12:46 AM CDT reply actions  

JJ's upside

Is far better than Lee though. There are some things JJ can do when focused that like Tyrus before him, no other cheap players can do.

Let’s let JJ mature or trade him for a good player, before we just give him away. Why let the Nets make out on the deal AND get another 1st round pick.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 8:01 AM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to disagree.

JJ, “like Tyrus before him”, very very well never live up to his upside. Lee is proven. He’s a first rate defender, and competent on D. If I were Pax I’d take Lee for JJ without hesitation…

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 8:20 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lee

is proven to be crappy.

That’s all he’s proven. Sure he had 2-3 nice plays with Orlando, but his overall game outside of the highlight plays was not good. He’s completely overrated….and Orlando had no qualms dealing him away after his rookie year for a reason….then you see what he did in Jersey and it all made sense.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 8:37 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

They had to

Redick improved, but wasn’t what he was last year 2 years ago.

They can afford to start him in the finals if they have Howard, Turkoglu and a roided up Lewis….plus Pietrus got a lot of burn down the stretch as the key piece off the bench.

Look at his stats, Lee sucks.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 10:03 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Roided up... ?

Link?

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Jul 16, 2010 11:14 AM CDT up reply actions  

He missed

10 games this year because he tested postiive for steroids in the 2009-2010 year. He went on later this year to say that he took a protein shake or something that must have had anabolic steroids in it….well this year no ’roids, his numbers dropped quite a bit.

“Could be a coincidence ":http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4381822

“But who knows "http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/32319199/ns/sports-player_news/

“Because he was a complete non factor this year or in the playoffs compared to what he did last year, esp when he was a a key int eh Cavs series ":http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/l/lewisra02.html

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

SORRY

My links didn’t work.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:50 AM CDT up reply actions  

Ah yes...

I had totally forgotten about this… For the reasons mentioned in your post, i.e., he wasn’t that much of a factor. You’d think that if you put your body through that kind of thing, you’d have something to show for it…

"It’d be ridiculous to hate someone for simply what they say in a sports blog. But I greatly dislike every syllable of your angst-filled, smarmy, nondescript, half-assed, elitist-garbage responses." –Rogerspark Kris

by bullhockey on Jul 16, 2010 12:08 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lewis was solid the year before

Esp in the playoffs making key play after key play, moreso in the Cavs than the lakers series (since Turk did the Lewis deals in the Laker serires)….

THis year he totally flamed out.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well, he's basically a pure shooter

It doesn’t seem like roids would have THAT much of an impact on his game

by ChiTownSportsMaster on Jul 16, 2010 1:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

It doesn't seem

But what are we to know, he did have a pretty bad year by his standards…..in a year where you’d expect him to be more effective without Turkoglu….

But it’s all speculative.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 2:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

We're gonna have to piggyback a deal

I don’t think JJ and 1st rounder gets it done for any of the SG’s that may be available. What’s more likely is that we have to jump in on a deal that might have hit a roadblock. JJ and our 1st isn’t good enough alone, but using it as sweetener for someone else’s deal could help us out. Not to mention that we have cap space to take on a contract someone might be trying to move.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 16, 2010 3:11 AM CDT reply actions  

Just had a thought

We should trade taj to NJ for Lee so NJ can start him over Favors resulting in NJ fans ranting endlessly about it.

Brad Miller is god.

by Poloplaya14 on Jul 16, 2010 3:30 AM CDT reply actions   2 recs

We could send JJ to NJ for Lee straight up. They need another SF to back up Outlaw.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 16, 2010 4:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

Here's a couple I would explore

Slide in with Cleveland trying to get a PG. It’s been said they are looking at Ramon Sessions and Mike Conley. So we slide in to sweeten the pot and try to pluck a SG out of the mix.
We can make a trade like this:
(Ignore Haddadi, I put him in because that is roughly what the 12th pick would make, they don’t have rookies listed)
Cavs Get: PG Mike Conley from Memphis and SF James Johnson from Chicago
Grizz Get : PF Anderson Varajeo from Cleveland, 1st round pick, and $3 mil from Chicago
Bulls Get: Rights to SG Xavier Henry, SF Jamario Moon, and 2nd rounder from Memphis

The cash would be the difference between Conley’s contract and Varajeo’s. And if I’m right that doesn’t go against the cap. The Cavs get an up-tempo PG and JJ who they can have backup Marvin Williams. Hickson replaces Varejao this year anyway, and they get rid of his remaining 5 yrs. Memphis gets a big man who can back up Baby Gasol and Z-Bo, while also hedging their bets just in case Z-Bo wants too much cash next summer. We take the kid they trying to lowball and get an athletic defender to play SF/SG.

Or a trade like this:
Cavs Get: JJ from Chicago and Ramon Sessions from Minnesota
TWolves Get: Delonte West from Cleveland, and 1st round pick from Chicago
Bulls Get: Corey Brewer from Minnesota, and 2nd round pick from Cleveland

Once again, Cleveland gets their speedy PG, and JJ to backup Marvin Williams. Minnesota gets rid of Sessions and get a non-guaranteed contract in West and a 1st rounder from Chicago (not Charlotte’s pick). We get a nice SG, who can come off the bench and provide quality depth, better option than Mason Jr. or Bogans. Brewer and Brewer would be a helluva defensive combo at the 2. Brewer can stroke it a bit too.

by Ceasaleo on Jul 16, 2010 4:20 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Grizz make out like bandits in that deal and the Cavs get screwed.

2010 Offseason Motto: Get Greedy, Bulls. 1 top FA down (Thibs), 1 (or 2) to go.

by fundamentallysound on Jul 16, 2010 9:12 AM CDT up reply actions  

I really Like this trade..

Although would like to work it out so we get sessions also. He fits our system perfectly. Brewer is a good SG and I’m a huge fan, but he isn’t a consistent threat from the 3 point line and we have Brewer at 6-7 thats vrery athletic and a great defender.

by mazzimo on Jul 18, 2010 11:15 AM CDT up reply actions  

How much would it take to get Mayo?

My feeling is too much, but if it can be done that would be amazing.

I say at this point the best option is to sign Brewer and maybe take a shot on Tmac. Or, now that Orlando has matched Redick, I would take a run at VC. He’s an expiring contract so he’s low risk and he could be worth something to a team looking to shed cap at the deadline.

by DRose01 on Jul 16, 2010 7:29 AM CDT reply actions  

Boo on Courtney Lee

But if there was a humanly possible way to get Mayo for cheap I’d be for it (though I don’t know why suddenly everyone’s posting about Mayo being available). I know they paid a lot of money on Rudy Gay, but I still seem to think they want Mayo and that Conley’s going to get the axe there soon, and they’ll try to Gilbert Arenas up Mayo’s shoot first game into being their PG…..

Rudy F would be great of course and seems the most available of the 2 I’d want….but then again Portland seems to refuse to trade with us, so who knows.

Why not also add Bayless to this list. He could be a nice option.

Courtney Lee is not even in Redick’s class. He was masked in Orlando because of Dwight Howard, but he’s not really a starter in this league. He’s a middling role player. A move for him and we’d have a new Duhon on our hands…..a ok bench guy forced into playing more minutes than he should be playing. I’d take Kyle Korver as a starter over Lee…..

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 8:00 AM CDT reply actions   1 recs

Agreed on Lee

However, you seriously bring up Bayless as an option? He has a career TS of about 50%. He has proven that he can not shoot a basketball. Last year he managed a 14PER on a 24USG! That’s terribly inefficient. I agree that Lee may not be the best option, but come on: Bayless has not shown anything in his play to indicate he is a solid option. Acie Law will serve fine as a backup PG and that’s all Bayless can be.

by DRose01 on Jul 16, 2010 9:00 AM CDT up reply actions   1 recs

Bayless may be cheaper

Has a higher upside, and well didn’t play a whole lot (he’s a 3rd year player but with barely rookie playing time).

His TS% .521 is shockingly similar to Luol Deng’s .528, thuogh his usage rate is up 23.4% career to Deng’s 21%….

I think he’s worth the risk if he’s available and with Matthews, Roy, perhaps Fernandez and Bayless, I don’t know why they’d keep the latter 2….and the Blazers have been giving Rudy F a bit more time on the court….so why not go after the one they use the least.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 10:08 AM CDT up reply actions  

I suppose with more time he could be better

But I don’t see him as a viable shooting guard option…I guess the real question is why he played so little…lack of talent or just the overcrowding…I’d still try for a proven Rudy first…

Your point about Deng is well taken, but if Deng is relatively inefficient, Rose still is until he gets to the line more, why would we add another inefficient player?

Also, I see Deng getting better if he take more threes. Deng has shot over 35% from three point land the past three seasons. Whether that will continue if he takes more threes is yet to be seen. Bayless has been under 33% both years. I understand his sample size is small, but I just see no reason to believe he is going to be good.

He does have youth on his side, but Luol does too: albeit, less so.

by DRose01 on Jul 16, 2010 11:30 AM CDT up reply actions  

Rudy's not really proven much either at the NBA level

And perhaps is more expensive…that’s all.

We take a risk because we need another player. I’d be fine if we have a known SG on our team, that’s now our biggest weakness. And who knows, Bayless has had a lot of folks praise his talent.

Portland has way too many assets, and that’s what will cause them havoc because at least under Pritchard they never wanted to make any deals…..

Plus I don’t hate Deng anymore, I’ve learned to like his game and think he’s now severely underrated. I didn’t like him over GOrdon because he was 1) more expensive and 2) not as clutch, but now that he’s a solid 3rd option, he’s a value again and we might get more out of him.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:52 AM CDT up reply actions  

Pritchard made it real

hard, over evaluating his talent, and asking for a king’s ransom to get a Bayless or Rudy.

by QUINTEN DALEY on Jul 16, 2010 3:56 PM CDT up reply actions  

Disagree on Lee

In Lee’s rookie season (when Redick was a 2nd year player) Lee was the starter and Redick was planted firmly on the bench. As much as anything to me that proves that Lee if not better than Redick is at least in his class. Furthermore, if anything Redick’s issues (lack of athleticism) are masked just as much if not more by Howard. I don’t know if Lee is worth a first round pick + JJ, but he is probably as good as Redick, if a slightly different player.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 9:06 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

I wasn't all that high on Redick, but Redick

Clearly improved all over the court last year….and is a known commodity (shooter). Lee isn’t really known in anything though perceived as good because of a few nice plays in Orlando.

Lee got starters minutes again and regressed in Jersey (and well wasn’t that good to begin with). His rep outweighs his talent but since Jersey was so bad nobody watched him play and so the rep hasn’t come down to where it should be.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 10:11 AM CDT up reply actions  

Huh?

If anything the “rep outweighs his talent” label applies more to Redick than Lee. He isn’t a star by any means, but if we are looking for a good defender with an above average shot he would be fine. He struggled in Jersey because he was asked to do more than he is capable of doing, create his own shots etc. On the Bulls his role would be much more similar to his role on the Magic: good defense and knock down the open 3. I would rather have Mayo or Fernandez, but Lee would be a huge upgrade over Bogans and the like.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 10:55 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Folks

Were salivating over Lee because of a few plays he made int eh finals….

Redick’s been kind of the NBA laughing stock since he crapped out his rookie and soph year. THis year he made some strides to get some of that back.

I’d much rather have Mayo than anyone actually, even if he’s a taller BG lite, he’d be nice for us, but I really don’t know why we think we can get him just bc Memphis overpaid for Gay, they aren’t going to deal him, they may try to force him into being a PG and rid themselves of Conley at some pt.

If they did want to trade Mayo, I don’t think we have enough to offer them anyway this year.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:55 AM CDT up reply actions  

Really?

Nobody is salivating over Lee. He would be a nice pickup. Also, there has been no mention of any individual plays he made in the Finals. He was solid all year long for the Magic and his game fits what we need: defense and outside shooting.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

Agree to disagree

His outside shooting plummeted when he wasn’t the 3rd or 4th best outside shooter on the court (like he was in Orlando).

I don’t much care for Lee, and there were a lot of Lee talks as a stud in the making unregarded SG after his rookie year.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Same argument applies to Redick

All we want Lee to do is hit open outside jumpers and play defense.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

I agree. We're not asking him to be option one or two.

He’d be option 4 or 5, playing essentially the same role as he did in Orlando.

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 12:27 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't think he's a solid starter

And I’d rather have Korver out there keeping the D honest than Lee’s man plugging the lane.

I don’t like him but whatever, we’re just going to have to disagree on this one. Plus he’s only available through a trade, and I’d rather work on JJohnson then try to pry Lee away from the hapless Nets.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

Lee shot 40% on 3s as a rookie

Nobody is going to leave him alone all the time. He isn’t a zero on offense.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 1:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was left alone for much of tha trookie year

He wasn’t as much in Jersey and voila he sunk….

He’s not a good O player either. I’d have rather taken my chances on Redicks 10 pts on less than 7 shots than Lee’s less efficient 12Pts on 11 FGA….

He’s not a lock down defender either.

And with Brewer now it seems it’s a good move that we let this one be.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 2:13 PM CDT up reply actions  

Yep

Brewer is a good pick-up. We have our athletic wing defender, don’t need Lee anymore. I still think you are wrong on Lee. We won’t find out for a while though because he is asked to do more than he is capable of on that bad Nets team.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 2:21 PM CDT up reply actions  

I may be wrong

And I’ll admit I do have an irrational disliking for him.

But I also don’t see any buzzworthy ness yet in his game.

Well it was a fun discussionw hile it lasted.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 3:28 PM CDT up reply actions  

There isn't anything buzzworthyness in his game

He is a solid role player. Nothing more, nothing less.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 3:42 PM CDT up reply actions  

But he's a second year player....

With I presume little upside from what he has now (Which isn’t very good).

It’s ok to be a role player but do some things really well. I don’t see him doing anything all that well, and we haven’t seen him improve.

He’s athletic, but so are essentially every player not named Redick at the 2 spot and at least Redick has 1 key known quality….

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 3:54 PM CDT up reply actions  

By *all* accounts he plays very good defense

Most people think he has a shot to be an elite defender at his position. That cannot be as easily quantified as 3PT shooting, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 4:29 PM CDT up reply actions  

Or....

Saying it as it is.

He may be a good defender at some point, but he really isn’t there yet and didn’t improve upon his rookie campaign.

Remember when in his rookie year CHanning Frye was heavily wanted and was deemed untouchable by the Knicks, only to have a bad sophmore campaign and be shipped out and shopped around…..he’s now found a home in Phx, but isn’t anything like the rep was on him as a surprise rookie.

I see the same with Lee.

We’ll see how this year goes, but last year was a disappointment.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 10:55 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ugh

(1) Lee already is a good defender.
(2) You keep pointing to this terrible year last year in his second season. He wasn’t that bad last year and he was asked to do WAY more than he is capable of on one of the worst teams in NBA history. Nobody here is calling him a star, just a solid role player.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 11:34 PM CDT up reply actions  

He was terrible last year

His numbers fell everywhere, and correct me if I’m wrong, but Jersey’s D didn’t improve.

He’s a “good defender” in that he was on the Magic…..I think he’s all around overrated.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 19, 2010 7:38 AM CDT up reply actions  

How many Nets games did you watch last year?

I would like to have seen JJ Redick be a main scoring option on that Nets team. I am guessing he would have gotten exposed just as badly if not more than Lee.

I don’t know where you are coming up with this crap that he isn’t a good defender. He is.

by JSB on Jul 19, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see why the Griz trade Mayo for another year or two

Until then, he’s locked in at a low rookie salary. They’d be foolish to do that unless a totally great deal came along.

Henry, on the other hand, seems reasonable, because otherwise they have to pay him to sit on the bench.

Rudy also seems like a reasonable guy to try and get, but I’ve cooled off on him for a few reasons. First, he didn’t really step up in a time of need last year. In fact, he’s basically sulked and threatened to walk out on his contract and go back to Spain unless he’s traded.

I don’t think he’s good enough to call his shots like that, and I’d anticipate it might lead to him doing it again. So while I’d give up something for him, I wouldn’t give up too much anymore because I see a decent chance he gets mad and goes back to Spain in a year.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 16, 2010 9:17 AM CDT reply actions  

Agree on Mayo. Definitely a longshot.

Not sure I get what you’re saying about Henry, though. It seems to me Henry and Mayo are in similar positions (rookie contracts, young, etc.), except that the drafting of Henry suggests that Mayo might be expendable. As you said though, they might wait another year or two, and would likely look for more in return than the bulls can offer.

Also, I think if Rudy starts for the bulls, he stops sulking…

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 10:46 AM CDT up reply actions  

are we sure Courtney Lee's any good?

He got on national TV a lot as a rookie, that’s all the evidence I’ve seen.

turning 25 at the start of next season, and yet to be at even an average PER.

BaB on Twitter | BaB on Facebook
"Don't nag, flag!"

by your friendly BullsBlogger on Jul 16, 2010 10:35 AM CDT reply actions  

I agree in a vaccuum, but compare him to the other options...

Is he better than JJ? Yes. Better than Roger Mason or Keith Bogans? Without a doubt. Is he better than what the Bulls will draft with what will likely amount to somewhere around the #20 pick of the 2011 draft? Most likely.

At worst, he’s the lock down wing defender the Bulls are currently without. At best, he’s a starter. You can make a case for Ronnie Brewer being equivilent, so signing him is fine with me. But I’d certainly look into Lee before Mason or Bogans or Eddie House.

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 10:53 AM CDT up reply actions  

I don't see how he's better than JJ

JJ’s a pure shooter, has an NBA talent skill and developed some PG and leadership abilities.

Lee’s a journeyman already 2 yrs in and his voyage is just starting.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:56 AM CDT up reply actions  

I'm sorry, I should have been clearer, JJ = James Johnson

So I’m saying it’s worth trading James Johnson for Lee, even if a first rounder is also involved.

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 11:58 AM CDT up reply actions  

Johnson

Has a lot of upside…..I don’t nkow, but I enjoy the flashes of JJ’s game…though I bet if he ever does figure it out he’ll be in a few uniforms from now….but I’d like to think we can wait and see at least one more year.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

So let's see your math here

Redick’s one good year and two bad years (all with good teams) > Lee’s one good year and one bad year (with a bad team? Not to mention Lee is more athletic, a better finisher at the basket and a better defender.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:06 PM CDT up reply actions  

We need a shooter

Lee’s not nearly Redick in that dept.

Redick was solid for the Magic downt he stretch and in the playoffs.

I didn’t liket he $20M deal on Redick, but thought well at least he’s a shooter and that shooting tandem is very solid. Thibs may help make the other defenders good enough to balance that out……

And yes I think Redick has a more known and visibile commodity that would help our team over Lee.

With Redick or Korver on the court the defenders are going to know that they HAVE TO keep an eye on them, which will open up the lanes for Rose.

Having another athletic finisher who needs driving lanes is counterproductive to Rose.

Plus I don’t know if Lee’s really any good….

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:17 PM CDT up reply actions  

He shot 40% on threes as a rookie

If you reverse their college careers, but kept the same pro careers, everyone would say that Lee is the better player but that nobody can succeed with the Nets. I don’t see how having an athletic finisher is counterproductive to having Rose. Lee doesn’t “need” driving lanes, he is a role player. But, this whole argument is silly, we aren’t choosing between Lee and Redick at this point. We are choosing between Lee and Keith Bogans.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:26 PM CDT up reply actions  

Redick

Came into the league as a known shooter. He’s been scouted since college as a known shooter.

Lee was a surprise and likely was thought, we’ll give him those shots given everyone else in Orlando.

Lee gets a chance outside of Orlando and lookey there his numbers fall.

Redick, being a known shooter, is a known commodity. We don’t know how he’d do away from Orlando (and I guess we won’t find out), but we do know that Lee didn’t improve upon his rookie campaign. Redick has improved and might continue to do so esp given where he’s come from rookie year to today.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 1:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

If you put Redick on that Nets team I doubt he has a TS% over 60% too

Everyone benefits from playing on a team with a dominant big man like Howard. Redick just like Lee the year before was shooting a lot of wide-open threes. Lee shot 40% on those threes, that’s not an accident.

I also don’t see how you can give credit to Redick for improving in his 3rd year, yet ding Lee b/c he didn’t light it up for a very poor NJ team. Lee played over Redick when they both were in Orlando, and when Redick already had the advantage from being in the league for a year.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 1:05 PM CDT up reply actions  

Redick's a shooter

Playing on a very poor team should help Lee more than hurt Lee since he had more of a chance to show what he could do than he had in a structured system.

I don’t understand why you are so defensive on Courtney Lee.

He’s Courtney Lee. We’re not talking Wade, Kobe here.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 2:14 PM CDT up reply actions  

And I don't understand why you are attacking him

I think you have a misimpression of Lee. He is a role player, he isn’t a star. He does better without the ball in his hands all the time and when he isn’t asked to do alot. My main problem is that all of the arguments you are using to attack Lee are the same ones that should be used to attack Redick.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 2:23 PM CDT up reply actions  

Well I will say

Redick’s done nothing but get better in his short time in teh NBA. He was almost Morrison bad to start, and now looks like a good role player (with a valued skill—lock down jump shooter that keeps him an asset especially since it’s easily traced, and fits .392 (.405 last year on over 250 attempts). His presumed shooter value is matching his game statistically, plus his coach has praised him and he performed quite well when Carter was out.

Lee regressed in everything in his second year. Granted he left a system that might have been great because it could more mask his flaws, but he also was never thought of as a shooter, at least not to Redick’s level, and proved as much in year 1 post Orlando but shooting essentially the same amt of looks as Redick (despite probably being more open than JJ would be given JJ’s “known as a shooter only” rep and game), and his shooting fell….

But so be it, doesn’t matter over all.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 3:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Are you prepared to be surprised

Redick in college: Career 40.5% from 3PT distance
Lee in college: Career 40.0% from 3PT distance

Now you can argue that Redick faced better competition or that he was more the focal point of defenses (although Lee was also the best player in his conference), but Lee has always been able to stroke it from distance.

In the end your argument boils down to teams won’t give JJ open looks because of the ESPN/Duke hype machine where he is a household name.

http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/duke/jj-redick/2004-2005
http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/player/western-kentucky/courtney-lee

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 3:48 PM CDT up reply actions  

Redick

Faced better comp and I think broke the ACC record for scoring. That’s a big difference. Duke plays tougher comp than Western KY,

Redick also took 2x as many 3’s so having that high a percentage over that many more attempts facing much tougher competition says something….plus Redick’s taking that and improving in the NBA.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 3:57 PM CDT up reply actions  

Barely

Lee (with one horrible season) is a career 37.2% 3PT shooter, Redick is a 39.2% 3PT shooter. The difference in their shooting stroke isn’t that pronounced. The difference in athleticism/defense is enormous. Obviously JJ was the better college player, but you made the argument that Lee has never been known as a shooter. That is flat-out untrue. He has always been a good shooter.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 4:33 PM CDT up reply actions  

Ok

Tell me when Lee’s rep equals JJ Redick’s rep as a shooter.

It’ just not the same. Redick’s improved too as he’s become more familiar with the game.

SO not only has he had a higher college % for about 80% more shots in his college career, and was known as a lock down shooter in college, but has come to the pros and after two difficult years, started to figure out his place in th eleague….and improve.

But he’s ALWAYS maintained that well earned college rep as a shooter, and was a top 10 3 pt shooter last year as well.

Lee %’s dropped rather signficantly last year (Despite being on a team that was in more garbage time games than any in the league)….

Again we’ll agree to disagree, I’m done here.

We’ll see how Lee does again this year, I would be surprised to see him get back his rookie O form on Offense, but who knows.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 10:59 PM CDT up reply actions  

Reputation?

Lee’s rep will probably never equal Redick’s rep just because ESPN slobbed on Redick’s knob for 3 years at Duke. Lee will probably never gain that notoriety, even if he shoots 45% on 3s next year.

Besides, nobody has argued that Lee is a better shooter than Lee. You have argued that Lee isn’t a good shooter at all. All we have been saying is that Lee can shoot the rock a bit and is better at every other facet of the game.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 11:37 PM CDT up reply actions  

Again

Redick shot a higher college % for a MUCH BIGGER program and shot almost 2x the 3’s Lee did, plus is one of the highest scorers in college bball history.

Redick also was found to be a big stretch as a lottery pick and was routinely said so all over the ESPN/big mag’s.

What’s Lee better at? He’s more athletic.

His numbers don’t jive with what youa re saying.

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 19, 2010 7:39 AM CDT up reply actions  

Defense is supposed to be his calling card

Defensive perimeter players usually have bad PERs. Look at Bowen for example. He shot over 40% on threes in Orlando as a rookie and outplayed Redick that year. Yes, he was trades, but it was for Vince Carter. Not like the Magic gave him away. Not a star, but someone who fits what the Bulls need: defensive wing and a good three point shooter.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 10:59 AM CDT via mobile up reply actions  

Bowen's D rtg

Career was 102, and was much lower in his heyday,

Lee’s a what 107…..and was on one of the best D teams in the league when he was a rookie.

I love how the defenders have bad PERs argument comes up when we’re talking of someone we have, but for years the boobirds were all over HInrich for his bad PER.

Oh well.

Lee’s not close to a premier defender these days and won’t help us, plus we’d have to trade for him and I wouldn’t give more than 2 seconds….

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 11:59 AM CDT up reply actions  

Lee's D Rating was 104 with the Magic

Lee is a good defensive player. Why do you hate Courtney Lee so much? He is a fine player.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:02 PM CDT up reply actions  

I don't hate him

I just don’t think he’s our answer by any means.

He’s purely avg to below avg.

If he wasn’t, I doubt Orlando would ship him out, even if it looked good on paper. You didn’t see Chicago dealing Taj, who while not great is better than Lee, why not because we don’t know his ceiling, but more because they like that we got a steal in the draft….

2010-2011: I put the Scottie-Barkley Rockets feud curse on the Wade-James-Bosh trio.....

by majoyenrac on Jul 16, 2010 12:10 PM CDT up reply actions  

They didn't give him away

They traded him for Vince Carter who they thought was the missing link for them to become a championship team. If we could get someone who we thought was the missing piece on this team you can bet your ass that we would trade Taj. Not to mention that many thought they shouldn’t have given him up. I don’t think he is a star, but I think he is a nice role player and if we can’t get Mayo, Rudy or Xavier Henry, I think he is far superior to players like Bogans etc.

by JSB on Jul 16, 2010 12:12 PM CDT up reply actions  

A poor man's trade proposal

Bulls trade a (heavily) protected #1 for TJ Ford and Brandon Rush.

Since I live in Indy, I’ve watched Brandon Rush a fair amount and I actually think he sucks big floppy donkey dick. But the Pacers are hemorrhaging money and would love to be rid of Ford. He’s a real turd as well though.

BullsTwo > Back up and running!

by Sports2 on Jul 16, 2010 11:08 AM CDT reply actions  

yup

lowball Brewer, save cap space, make a deadline deal.

by 72-10 on Jul 16, 2010 11:27 AM CDT up reply actions  

That literally made me laugh out loud.

In the past 10 years, just four team owners have not paid a luxury tax and are not on pace to pay one this year: Donald Sterling, Jerry Reinsdorf, Chris Cohen (Golden State), Bob Johnson (Charlotte).

Two owners’ teams averaged an operating income of over +$10 million per year while their teams have lost over 60% of their games: Donald Sterling and Jerry Reinsdorf.

by tyger1147 on Jul 16, 2010 12:58 PM CDT up reply actions  

I like the Brewer and Brewer idea...

if we could somehow pick-up Henry and either Brewer (Ronnie more likely) that would be one helluva haul…

by streamsowhiskey on Jul 16, 2010 11:43 AM CDT reply actions  

Henry, Mayo, Rudy

that’s it.

All I want in life is for UC fans to chant: Deeeeeloooonte during Heat games

by Belize on Jul 16, 2010 11:59 AM CDT reply actions  

I say target mayo or henry

Id offer J.J and a first round or 2 first round pics for mayo.But ithink they dont wanna sign henry so get it done do what it takes.

by tazz34 on Jul 16, 2010 4:59 PM CDT reply actions  

Mayo is still on the rookie scale for another 2 years

So I dont expect him to be traded before then. Memphis is also trying him out at PG, so they are probably more open to trading Mike Conley than OJ Mayo.

The Nets already have 2 SFs with Travis Outlaw and Terrance Williams. I dont think they want a third SF. They are also probably not interested in more draft picks, because they have 6 or 7 picks in the next 2 drafts. Besides, Courtney Lee is their lone keeper from trading Vince Carter last year, so I think they will show a little more faith in Lee if only to save face.

The Bulls is not exactly brimming with big men that they can trade away Taj Gibson in any deals at the moment. If Carlos Boozer (with his history of injuries) gets hurt for any extended period of time, Taj will have to start some games for the Bulls.

by VaderMaul on Jul 16, 2010 8:44 PM CDT reply actions  

Starting SG is more important than bench depth IMO

If we can get Mayo for Taj + picks, that’s a no brainer…of course things just got a bit murkier today with the acquisition of Brewer (who was not signed at the time I wrote this fanpost).

Still, even if it’s one step backwards (lack of frontcourt depth this year), two steps forward (starting five settled for the foreseeable future) it sets us up to be a contender for the next five years. Front court depth can be addressed via trade or even next off season.

by Diz on Jul 16, 2010 10:00 PM CDT up reply actions  

I think we might have more of a shot with Henry than Mayo… He’s yet to ink for Memphis & might not want to join the team… I’m thinking a first rounder straight up for Henry…

Would really love Mayo or Lee here… Too bad it’s lookin very unlikely.

Is it October yet?

Just so I never have to answer this again. I'm from Singapore so whenever you see me online, I'm either sleep deprived or just waking up.

by Alighieri on Jul 16, 2010 9:49 PM CDT reply actions  

hopefully they want James Johnson too

at this point I’d rather see Morrison as the reserve SF than Johnson

don't let the bed bugs bite

by Rex Grossman on Jul 17, 2010 11:17 AM CDT up reply actions  

easy choice

The Bulls should get whoever is the highest rated in NBA 2k11, there you go problem solved

Ricky Rubio

by RickyRubio24 on Jul 17, 2010 12:26 PM CDT reply actions  

rudy rudy rudy rudy rudy

"its tough to play with one eye, unless you're a pirate." Delonte West
"una canasta a Pau en la cara" Rudy

by Honka Playboy on Jul 17, 2010 1:27 PM CDT reply actions  

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